User talk:Kerry Raymond/Archive 8

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Smile!

Hello Kerry Raymond, Jono52795 has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Go on, smile! Cheers, and happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

To the The Sunshine State! Jono52795 (talk) 13:23, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Truss et al - Shire of Noosa

Hi Kerry. Thanks for digging that one up. I thought that must've been what they were all doing, but didn't have the time to find and cite something to fix the fragment (and didn't want to make it more wrong if they'd actually done something different). BigHaz - Schreit mich an 09:06, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Excuse me?

What was this about? DuncanHill (talk) 00:03, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

@DuncanHill: Sorry, it was not your edit but the one before that I was undoing, but because your edit conflicted with that edit, I had to undo them both, and then I restored your edit (England to Great Britain) as that wasn't the problem. So nothing to do with your edit, just how the tool reported it. Kerry (talk) 00:05, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

But you didn't and haven't undone the edit before. DuncanHill (talk) 00:07, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Oops, I really must have clicked the wrong button. I will fix it. Your edit will survive at the end of it all. Kerry (talk) 00:12, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

@DuncanHill: Done (I hope), sorry about the confusion. Kerry (talk) 00:16, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

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AfC

I think you declined over the top of my decline at Queenscliffe Historical Museum? Not sure what happened there! The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:51, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

@The Drover's Wife: I think there is some way to flag that you are in the process of reviewing the article to warn off others. Having said that, I am not sure how to do it. I will investigate (and at least we agreed on the result, but, yes, it is a waste of time for both of us to review it). Kerry (talk) 08:08, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

@The Drover's Wife:

When you open the review tool, you see Accept, Decline and Comment as the 3 options but over to the right are two little << arrows. Click on that, and you get to mark it as under review, and I am guessing the other one clears that (if you abandon review, as I assume Accept/Decline/Comment should clear it automatically). See Draft:Queenscliffe Historical Museum now and you should see I have it "claimed". Kerry (talk) 08:15, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Let me know when you have seen it and I will release it. Kerry (talk) 08:16, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

I completed and saved it 17 minutes before you did though? Very odd. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:35, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

I suspect that edit conflicts don't work in the same way with the gadget. Probably I opened the tool before you, then you opened the tool, you declined and exited, then I decline and exited. Normally in that sequence, I would get an edit conflict message as you saved after I opened, but I suspect that the gadget is not opening the article for edit when you open the tool. That's my "educated" guess on what's happening. Clearly marking is the smart move to avoid the situation. I was amused though that we were both drawn to the same article, not surprising given our editing interests. Kerry (talk) 08:48, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Branyan Road State School

Hi Kerry. Nice article. Could you perhaps consider breaking the history into sections or sub-sections? Not only for readability but also for ease of future edits. Best wishes for the holidays :) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:38, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Redlinks

Hi Kerry

Please check reversions I just made to Tormore House School (and was promptly reverted) and tell me I'm not barking up the wrong tree. Doug butler (talk) 08:10, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas Kerry Raymond!!


Hi Kerry Raymond, I wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year,
Thanks for all your help and contributions on the 'pedia! ,
   –Davey2010 ^{Merry Xmas / Happy New Year} 13:43, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Kerry!

Thanks very much for your support. Have a Merry Xmas! Dippiljemmy (talk) 04:02, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

ho, ho, ho

Hi Kerry Raymond, Neddy wishes everybody a very merry Xmas (suggestions of direct ancestory with one of the eyewitnesses to the happy event have, so far, proved unfounded) Coolabahapple (talk) 10:08, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Articles for Creation

I'm hopeless with Petscan, and I've just realised that the table from Wikipedia:WikiProject Australia/ArticlesforReview seems to be set to only pick up on those that have been sitting there for a month - now that we've cleared the backlog, any chance you could alter it so we can tackle newer entries? The Drover's Wife (talk) 06:21, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

(or else I'm just really confused. Can't quite figure out why Draft:Brian Bury and Draft:The Decline (punk band) only just showed up on there despite being created on 26 November.) The Drover's Wife (talk) 06:23, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

@The Drover's Wife: The query searches for articles in Category:Pending AfC submissions whose talk page includes the template WikiProject Australia. So two things have to happen before they appear in our list, the creator (or someone else) clicks on the Submit button (so it's available for review) AND someone has put the template WikiProject Australia onto the Talk page. Looking at the history of Talk:Brian Bury, the draft was only tagged as WikiProject Australia today (by Worldbruce). So the backlog was in the tagging, not in the reviewing. Kerry (talk) 06:42, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

@The Drover's Wife: I am using AutoWikiBrowser to find Australian articles and tagging them, so if you regnerate you should see at least one appear. Kerry (talk) 07:01, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Oh fail. Thanks! The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:59, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Seth Gonzalez‎

Hello! Just a heads up – the SPI template on this report is not substituting correctly. I tried to fix it but can't figure out what is wrong . –FlyingAce^✈hello 13:52, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

@FlyingAce:. I didn't understand why it didn't work either but it's not a template I often use so I assumed I just didn't understand something, although I think I followed the instructions. I hoped it would serve as the report regardless as the substantive issue is visible in plain text. Thanks for trying to fix it! Kerry (talk) 13:57, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

It seems the whole issue was caused by a missing bracket – it's looking good now. Happy editing! –FlyingAce^✈hello 18:02, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Articles for Creation Reviewing

Hello, Kerry Raymond. AfC submissions Random submission 3+ months 2,438 pending submissions to update I recently sent you an invitation to join NPP, but you also might be the right candidate for another related project, AfC, which is also extremely backlogged. Would you please consider becoming an Articles for Creation reviewer? Articles for Creation reviewers help new users learn the ropes of creating their first articles, and identify whether topics are suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. Reviewing drafts doesn't take much time but it requires a good understanding of Wikipedia inclusion policies and guidelines; currently Wikipedia needs experienced users at this task. (After requesting to be added to the project, reviewing is not mandatory. One can do it at their convenience). But kindly read the reviewing instructions before making your decision. Thanks. — Insertcleverphrasehere (or here) 02:44, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Hmm. I thought I am already signed up for it. Kerry (talk) 02:47, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Redlinks for notable Queenslanders

Hi Kerry,

You will have noted that I have red linked Sir Charles Barton in Bruce Highway. He is deserving of an article and all his info is in the ADB, but I am not about to start it so feel free to put it on your list or suggest it to some willing compatriot.

On a related note, Sir Joseph McAvoy (apparently actually Francis Joseph McAvoy) may be sufficiently notable - he was knighted for services to the sugar industry. As I have been unable to find much more about him I have resisted the urge to redlink him.

Cheers, John Downsize43 (talk) 10:53, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

@Downsize43: Don't be shy about creating redlinks. The WP:REDLINK policy tells us "In general, a red link should be allowed to remain in an article if it links to a term that could plausibly sustain an article". So you don't have to guarantee notability to create a redlink, just that it is plausibly notable. I think being knighted constitutes "plausible". And red links tend to trigger article creation (that's been established in a research project, it's an example of stigmergic behaviour in Wikipedia). Kerry (talk) 00:08, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

@Kerry Raymond: Thank you for giving me a new word. It seems that "Stigmergy" could also be applied to the process whereby most people who come up with good ideas in an organisation almost never get the credit due when there is a successful group outcome. Cheers, John Downsize43 (talk) 07:21, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your help Kerry!

Hi Kerry,

Just wanted to drop you a line to thank you for reviewing and editing the article on Sheridan Close Apartment Block - much appreciated! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brisbanewikiuser (talk • contribs) 07:32, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

@Brisbanewikiuser: You're welcome. I hope you keep on writing great content for Wikipedia. Kerry (talk) 08:01, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Changi University

Thanks for the speedy second review and the improvements you have made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robert (Bic) Bicknell (talk • contribs) 21:56, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Ros Bates

@Brownlife:I removed this statement "Bates was awarded the Prime Minister's Centenary of Federation Medal (2001)"which had this source . which said nothing about Ros Bates receiving that award. if you have a source for it that actually justifies the inclusion and which states Ros Bates was awarded ....." go for it.Brownlife (talk) 00:14, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

@Brownlife: Like many websites these days, the individual webpages returned from search results may or may not be persistent, so often the only option is to cite the search page. That particular website itself is quite reliable as to content. However, that website was revamped late last year which broke many of the links that people were using for citations. This has been discussed at the Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board. Try search there for Rosslyn Bates yourself as I did and you will find the information is there at [1], whether or not that URL is persistent and hence usable as a URL is unclear, so it may be preferable to cite the search page as was done in this instance. If you are doubtful about whether an Australian source is reliable or the best way to cite it, then the Australian noticeboard is the best place to discuss it. In Wikipedia, we assume good faith in relation to contributed content, so you should have made the effort to do a search before deleting it saying there was "no source". Also be aware of our policy WP:NOBITE in relation to new contributors. Whereas you have made accusations about this new contributor and deleted their content either without explanation and/or threats to report them. This is not the way we should treat new contributors. As I have already said on your talk page (but you seem to have deleted it), you can report the contributor at WP:COIN if you have a legitimate concern. Kerry (talk) 00:31, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Hmmm. I find you saying this source http://www.itsanhonour.gov.au/honours/honour_roll/</ref> should be used as a reliable source in our biographies. I totally disagree. Readers shouldn't need to go to that source and then somehow navigate themselves to this page http://www.itsanhonour.gov.au/honours/honour_roll/search.cfm?show=simple and then if they manage to reach that page then to manually type into the search facility on that page a name and then wait to go to another webpage search http://www.itsanhonour.gov.au/honours/honour_roll/search.cfm?breif=true&page=1&search_type=simple and even then not find a reliable source which says ros bates won such a such an award!. Are you serious? If they go to that source they will click out of it as I did. Obviously. I'm pretty sure you could find a source that actually says what you personally want it to say. I have no objection to including it if you can That is not good enough kerry! I also will report this editor when i get a chance.Brownlife (talk) 01:19, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

I suggest you acquaint yourself with WP:RS and WP:SOURCEACCESS. The latter clearly states "Do not reject reliable sources just because they are difficult or costly to access." Kerry (talk) 00:35, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

I gave up trying to work through the 5 different URL addresses. Glad you found it now. However i don't need your sarcastic comment left on the edit "added the citation that was too hard to find apparently" I remind you that sarcasm can be interpreted as a lack of civility. I suggest you familiarise yourself with our civility policy Wikipedia:Civility. And thank you but I am already familar with WP:RS and WP:SOURCEACCESS. Anyway I do not wish to continue this discussion especially after your hostile and saracastic edit summary you left for me.Brownlife (talk) 04:50, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Also i must remind you of your most recent edit warring warning, so please don't try and scold me I will not take your abuse thank you. You are just an editor and we are both on the same level. I also request you stop hounding me and following me around. I personally view this as harassment. No need to reply. As I said after your sarcastic hostile edit summary I want no more abuse from you Kerry.Brownlife (talk) 04:55, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Mount Ommaney name origin

Hi Kerry I've started volunteering at Wolston House as a guide and I've done a lot of research on the location. Whilst the newspaper reference you quote links the name Mt Ommaney to Stephen Simpson's nephew, the name occurs much earlier in 1846 so the origin is a bit of a mystery. John Ommaney died at Wolston ten years later in 1856. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article3712674 regards Paul — Preceding unsigned comment added by PaulGranny (talk • contribs) 02:05, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

• @PaulGranny: While the sources all seem to say that it is named after the nephew, none actually say though that it was named after him following his death in 1856, so it may well be true that it was named by Simpson before 1846 after his nephew (or that family more generally). Whatever, the information on the origin of the name must lie in the New South Wales records given these dates are all before the Separation of Queensland. I looked in the New South Wales Government Gazette but all I found was [2] and there was nothing there about the mountain. We may never know ... Kerry (talk) 07:09, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Inquiry of Userboxes

Please let me know if there is a user box for member of Wikipedia donation group. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 23:58, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Not that I know of but some of them are defined in user space. If you have seen one on a user page, can you point to it and then we can track it down. Kerry (talk) 00:58, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi Kerry and Goodtiming8871, There's a donor for WMF one on Wikipedia:Userboxes/Wikipedia/Miscellaneous if that's what you were after? JennyOz (talk)

Ah yes,

This user is a donor to the Wikimedia Foundation. You can be one, too.

! Thanks! I searched for "donate" but I didn't think to search for "donor"! Kerry (talk) 10:08, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for finding this. I've added it to my user page. --Oronsay (talk) 23:39, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for finding the user box, you are the champion Goodtiming8871 (talk) 03:32, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Timbertop

A tag has been placed on Category:Timbertop requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. —swpb^{T go beyond} 15:06, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

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Many thanks and Lamingtons

Hi Kerry, Many thanks for the lamington. In return, here's one as a way of thanks for your support and help over the years! I rarely upload to Commons so am a tad rusty regarding the best format for titles and descriptions.

Lamingtons and a cup of tea

Coastal.culture.vulture (talk) 10:00, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

04:09:07, 18 January 2018 review of submission by Thedesignerguy

• Thedesignerguy (talk · contribs)
  • Draft:Harmony Park (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Thedesignerguy (talk) 04:09, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Im trying to create the wiki page for Harmony Park because there is a page that exists elsewhere and is in a foreign language.

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony_Park_%28park_i_Australien%2C_New_South_Wales%29

This incorrect page has been refernced to auto create a facebook page for Harmony Park and its factually incorrect and creating confusion for people who are checking in and tagging Harmony Park on Facebook, which is not great consdering this is a popular local destination, and definately requires its own page with the correct info. I was hoping by creating a new page with the correct info this might help resolve the issue. A breif history of Surry Hills is historically imporant to the a Harmony Park page as the park came from a large area of Surry Hills being demolished and neglected. Ive been doing my best to get the page to a satisfactory point but this is wiki thing is totally out of my league so some help would be great.

Also, someone commented that the page I created was too breif? The wiki article I reference above is also very breif, and its incorrect, in a foreign language yet its approved and available on wikipedia causing lots of issues.

Thanks for your help.

Thedesignerguy (talk) 04:09, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

@Thedesignerguy: First, I need to explain that English Wikipedia and Swedish Wikipedia are separate projects and operate with different rules. The population of Sweden is about 10 million so, even allowing for immigration, the number of Swedish-speaking people who can contribute to Swedish Wikipedia is very low in comparison to the number of English-speaking people who can contribute to English Wikipedia, so the two Wikipedias are in very different situations. It seems that Swedish Wikipedia was willing to have a huge number of articles that were machine-written based on geonames.org (their article on Harmony Park being among them); in my opinion these Swedish articles are dreadful. I don't know if you have translated the Swedish article on Harmony Park but it tells us the distance from Canberra, that the ocean is to the NE, and there are "unusually many named peninsulas, bays and beaches" nearby. It seems Harmony Park even has its own climate data to be reported (really?!). There are thousands of these almost identical articles on Swedish Wikipedia about Australian places, all as useess as the one on Harmony Park. On English Wikipedia we have very different views on what is acceptable as an article, so the comparison with Swedish Wikipedia (and whatever Facebook chooses to do with the Swedish article) isn't a criteria for accepting an article on English Wikipedia. Indeed we have a policy called WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS which basically says we apply the rules as they exist today and are not to be influenced by past decisions.

The issue with your draft article is not a question of its length. The main criteria here is "is it notable?" which asks if independent sources talk about it as a primary topic or are there only passing mentions or run-of-mill mentions (e.g. list in a directory of parks in Sydney). A draft article can pass notability with a couple of sentences and a couple of citations (if they are the right sentences and citations). When I look at your draft and its citations, what I see is a history of Surrey Hills. I see very little about the actual park itself (apart from stormwater collection from the substation). So I am not saying to you "remove the history of Surrey Hills" but rather I am saying to you, put this information into the Surrey Hills article, as you don't seem to have anything much to say about the park itself as it is today. You say above it's a popular local destination and in your draft you say something similar, but many parks in Sydney and the rest of the world are popular with local residents and dog owners. You mention a purple jacaranda tree; lots of parks have jacarandas and they are normally purple in my experience, so what is the special significance of this one? Is there an annual jacaranda festival held there? It's hard for me to see from what you are presenting that makes this park notable.

I honestly don't think writing more about the park is likely to improve its chances for passing notability. I really do think the best course of action is to incorporate the information in the draft into the Surry Hills article. What we can do is to create "Harmony Park" as a redirection to the Surry Hills article, which ensures that if anyone comes to Wikipedia and searches for Harmony Park will be taken to the Surry Hills article. I am happy to create the redirect for you if you take that route (I realise it's not something you probably know how to do).

But, I am just one reviewer and, while I have given you my best advice, others may see the situation differently. You are free to work more on the draft and resubmit it if that's what you want to do. Kerry (talk) 05:25, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Help! AfD Jeni Thornley

The article I've written on Australian filmmaker Jeni Thornley is being considered for deletion. Knowing of your interest in Australia, I wondered, is there any way you can help?--Oronsay (talk) 00:54, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Well, it never hurts to add more citations *about* her than *by her*, but I think the 3 there about her should suffice. Kerry (talk) 06:46, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Ivy May Pearce - reference query

Hi Kerry, I'm puzzled by the mixed reference styles and how they are displayed in Ivy May Pearce. I've not come across this particular approach before and the new references I've just added are appearing under 'Aerobatics'. Do you have any suggestions? Many thanks! Coastal.culture.vulture (talk) 10:11, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

@Coastal.culture.vulture: Wikipedia:Citing sources says that inline sources are required for verification. However, although the numbered citation style^[1] is preferred to the (Bloggs 1972) style, it's not absolutely prohibited to use the (Blogs 1972) style. In theory once a style is established in an article, you are supposed to stick with that style as per WP:CITEVAR but you can ask on Talk if you want to switch to another style and can do so if you appear to have consensus (which may be interpreted as lack of objection if nobody responds). However, although there are five sources listed in the References section, only two of them are used in-line in the article (Dwyer & McKenzie), the other three are never used in-line (which is contrary to verification policy). So you have two courses of action, switch to using the "established" style OR ask on Talk to switch to numbered citations.

As to the reason that your numbered citations appear after Aerobatics, that is nothing to do with policy but purely mechnical. If the article is written in the (Bloggs 1972) style, it has no need to include either <references/> or {{reflist}} which are only needed in articles with the numbered citations to indicate where to display the citations. So this article has neither of these two directives to "display the citations here". So when the article is rendered on the screen for the reader, if it comes to the end of rendering the article and finds it has unrendered citations, it just dumps them at the end (on the theory that it should put them somewhere), which is what you are seeing -- they are "at the end" rather than "under Aerobatics".

If it were me, I'd try asking on Talk to see if people would go along with a switch to numbered citations (noting you have to be willing to do the work if people agree). But if the consensus is to stick with the present style or you don't ask, then you have to convert yours to the other style. Kerry (talk) 13:14, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Argh, why did you point me at this article? I've now spent the last couple of hours researching and writing about Ivy Pearce! :-) Kerry (talk) 16:36, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi Kerry, Thanks for the explanation and your advice. I feel I should apologise for showing you that article. It was a rabbit hole waiting to fall into, but I didn't want to fall too far down myself without having the knowledge to climb back out. I continued on the trail of early Australian aviatrixes and have just created a stub for Nancy Ellis which I'll work on in the coming days. Her entry in Early Australian female aviators is the tip of the iceberg of what she achieved. I think I should have given the new page her full name and that's something I need to be far more mindful of in the future. It looks like my theme will be early female pilots in Australia for #1lib1ref Coastal.culture.vulture (talk) 12:26, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Australia 5000 challenge

Hey Kerry. When did the Australia 5000 challenge start? Nat965 (talk) 00:46, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Based on the history of the page, 25 December 2016, but there was a bit of discussion preceding it on the Australian Wikipedians Noticeboard. I am not the person who organised it. Indeed I was unenthusiastic about the idea because I didn’t see any strategy in it to create additional activity or interest than what would naturally occur. And I also objected to the lack of tools to do the mechanics of counting the new and improved articles as manually reporting is an additional burden and hence massively under-estimates actual activity as many of the very active editors can’t be bothered. Today a better tool to use would be the Outreach Dashboard, although it would not distinguish between minor and major improvements to an article, but I would imagine it could be extended in that way. Kerry (talk) 01:30, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Definitely see where you're going with it, my thoughts exactly. Thanks! Nat965 (talk) 04:09, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

About Grove Street Pensioners' Cottages

Hi Kerry,
I was on speedy deletion/new pages patrol last night, and was going to ask you - as the go-to person about Queensland CC-BY 4.0 AU articles - a question about the CC-BY 4.0 AU status of the article.
Which you have already answered :-)
Pete "Queensland born, Queensland bred, when I die I'll be Queensland dead, Queenslander!"* AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 09:30, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
* Not actually Queensland born or Queensland bred, and - as far as I am aware - not dead, Queensland or otherwise.

1912 Queensland state electon listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect 1912 Queensland state electon. Since you had some involvement with the 1912 Queensland state electon redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Iffy★Chat -- 21:04, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Census Population Data

Hi Kerry. I have seen State Suburb (SSC), Urban Centre (UCL) and Significant Urban Area (SUA) all used as a basis for places Census population data (and have been criticised previously for not using SSC. However SSC only relates to one suburb within a wider urban area or can include rural areas not associated with the urban area. Is it preferable to use the highest available population agglomeration available to adequately capture the urban population (which is the one I would typically associate with a place), ie. a village (SSC), Town (UCL), City (SUA)?

@Greenguytroy: Well, I can only tell you what I do myself. I use SSC if it's a gazetted as only a suburb or a bounded locality. If it's a town/city with multiple suburbs/localities, then I use UCL (or SUA if it's a really big town/city) for the town/city article and SSCs for the individual suburb/locality articles. The tricky (but quite common case) is that we have a small town in a single suburb/locality which leaves us in a bit of an indecision (as the SSC number is usually higher than the UCL number as it includes the people who live "just out of town") and I have to say that what happens in practice on Wikipedia is somewhat random, but my preference is to use SSC in this case, because I like to imagine that in that Great and Glorious Day when every suburb/locality has an article on Wikipedia, the sum of the population data for all of suburbs/localities will add up to the population of Australia. Kerry (talk) 09:01, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Breweries

Hi Kerry

A year ago you created Category:Breweries in Australia which is rather underpopulated; doesn't even have my favorite brand :) Was the category intended for currently operating breweries only or to include historical names? Beer/ale/stout etc only or also cider, ginger beer and whatever else there may be ? Cheers, Doug butler (talk) 01:59, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Should have done some detective work first: you gave the category to both Castlemaine Brewery, Western Australia and Castlemaine Perkins so that answers Q1. Doug butler (talk) 02:05, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

@Doug butler: I just set it up the same as every other Category:Breweries in WhereEver which means I didn't really think about it, but if you look at those categories, they all have the parent Category:Beer in WhereEver. So on that basis, I would say active and historic are both in scope but only the brewing of beer. But I take your point there are other brewed beverages. Indeed here in Queensland we have Bundaberg Brewed Drinks which makes a huge range of brewed soft drinks and I notice that article is not in a Breweries category, but in food and drink categories. Kerry (talk) 02:17, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Beaudesert Road

Hi Kerry,

This is included in Mount Lindesay Highway. I see no need to split unless there is lots of stuff to be added. Would a redirect suffice?

Cheers, John Downsize43 (talk) 22:55, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

@Downsize43: I guess because I grew up in that area, I always think of it as Beaudesert Road and forgot that others might call it something different. I added the redirect, problem solved! Thanks Kerry (talk) 23:53, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

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Signpost request - 1lib1ref

Hi Kerry. I've seen that you've been involved in #1lib1ref with SLQ, and was wondering if you might like to write a short piece for the Signpost, sharing the experience, achievements, challenges, etc.? There's some further info at the Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Newsroom/Submissions page if you're interested. Cheers, Evad37 [talk] 09:58, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Thank you!

Hi Kerry,

Thank you for your vote of support to serve on the Wikipedia Library steering committee. I have been elected to a Steering Committee position and have accepted the position. I hope to make an impact on the steering committee and move Wikipedia Library forward.

Sincerely, Rachel Wexelbaum RachelWex 19:36, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Kitties!

mew, mew, mew, mew, mew.

Hi Kerry Raymond, Wow! i'm away from wp for around a week, and over 750 little ozzie kittens stubbies created, amazing!! Coolabahapple (talk) 23:31, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, @Coolabahapple:. The State Library of Queensland was keen to add schools and libraries to Queensland articles for 1Lib1Ref in January. We have good sources on where Qld schools (past and present) were located and where QLd public libraries are located. However, for that plan to succeed, there needed to be articles to receive the information on schools/libraries, so the place stubs you see are all places that have/had a school or have a public library. The "have had a school" list was particularly large (certainly larger than I expected)! All the public libraries (over 300 of them from memory, probably more like 400 when you include the locations of the mobile libraries) were added during the 1Lib1Ref campaign and many of the schools but not all as there are really a LOT of them. However, I expect we might get the schools finished in another push in next year's 1Lib1Ref. Not all of the articles I added in that period were place stubs but they were the bulk of it. There were also some of my usual Queensland Heritage Register articles and other odds and ends. Kerry (talk) 00:32, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

I probably should add that I didn't write them all in the week you were away, I just didn't get around to updating the list as I did each one, so you are seeing 3-4 months of work uploaded in one hit. Kerry (talk) 00:35, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Hi Kerry Raymond, thanks for the info, this many in a few mths is still pretty amazing, now that im back on my feet i'll be able to get back to adding a few:)Coolabahapple (talk) 00:53, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

@Coolabahapple: I have draft articles for all the towns/suburbs/localities for Queensland. You see I machine-generate most of the stub but it still needs a human eye to look over it and fix things that a person notices and a machine does not. So if you ever want a new article of that nature, just let me know and I'll add the stub. Far less work than trying to do it yourself. Kerry (talk) 07:18, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for that Kerry Raymond, i am trying to focus on the ozzie cleanup lists, and checking oz articles for the oz tags (only 100th+ to go:)), but can do a quick check of stubs added to the Article achievements list; may i suggest adding a Template:Under construction to the top of the article, depending on the machine generated quality, until i or another editor has had a look at them which will give us a few days of grace....? Coolabahapple (talk) 00:12, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

I look over them and fix any problems as I upload them, so there's not need to tag them. I am familiar with where the problems tend to occur. The biggest problem is that the electoral boundaries often approximate the locality boundary but have minor misalignements. That leads my generator to think that the locality is split over 2 or more state/federal electorates (which is a legitimate possibility) so whenever there is more than 1 state/federal electorate showing, I need to look at the satellite imagery overlaid with boundaries of the locality and the electorate and see if it's a genuine split or one of these minor misalignments. This is not a fault of the generator but the laziness of the electoral commission in not taking care to make their electoral boundaries align perfectly with the locality boundary when it is their intention that the locality be within that electorate (garbage in, garbage out, unfortunately). Kerry (talk) 02:22, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

The Signpost: 20 February 2018

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* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:12, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

broome

everything about broome is very very behind - thanks for your message - see what I can do before I close the hatch and disappear down south JarrahTree 01:30, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

wtf?

youre very bold today kerry - so whats wrong with sharing something like that, I dont ever revert any of your verbiage ? JarrahTree 00:52, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

ok so I see your reversion and followup further verbiage :) - cheers JarrahTree 00:54, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: I had an edit conflict with you and clearly I must have done something wrong using the new edit conflict tool as it embedded sections of your text into mine. My usual way of dealing with edit conflict is just to grab my text into the cut-n-paste buffer and then back out, and start over. But clearly the new edit tool didn't give me what I thought I was asking for (my own text) but some weird mishmash of yours and mine. I don't think I deleted anything in your comment, just it's duplication in mine. Kerry (talk) 00:58, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Sorry Kerry - I hate edit conflict pages they make me dizzy... sorry to have bothered you about it

As for the issue - the Indonesian example of clearly very wrong place things being put into wikidata make the bloody place a potential minefield beyond ones wildest bad dreams JarrahTree 01:05, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Kerry, could you just check that this edit is reasonable, and doesn't misrepresent what you said. The history, starting here, makes it a bit hard to be sure ... Mitch Ames (talk) 12:14, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

@Mitch Ames: Yes, thanks, I think that was my intention. This new edit conflict tool isn't much help on a Talk page I think. Kerry (talk) 12:23, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Hey its friday - who cares who said what where? JarrahTree 12:29, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

WP:TPO cares. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:02, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Lt Thomas Armstrong Memorial

Hi. I don't have time to go into detail right now, but I'm a bit puzzled by what happened here. I get that you used 'IABotManagementConsole [1.1]', but am puzzled because I fixed the second of those 'dead' URLs with this edit. Was it still showing as a dead URL or were you working from an old list? I am currently working through a lot of CWGC URLs. They are unlikely to go dead completely, but the CWGC has over the past 10 years or so used several different URL schemes. When I have more time, I'll point to archived versions of the old pages. Not sure whether an archive link should be included or not for these links, and if so how to incorporate them into {{CWGC}} and {{CWGC cemetery}}. @Pigsonthewing: in case archive URLs are something that should be applied uniformly, and also how to tie the use of archive URLs in with the (eventual) use of Wikidata. Carcharoth (talk) 17:31, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Wikidata already has a property for archive URLs in references: archive URL (P1065). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:54, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

@Carcharoth: Here in Australia, our various levels of government's enthusiasm for "rebuilding our website" results in hundreds and even thousands of deadlinks in Wikipedia articles on a regular basis. Trying to track down what has become of the old URLs in the new website has become too big a job to do manually, particularly if the "same" page in the redesigned website may or may not have updated the content and therefore could no longer serve as a citation for the Wikipedia article. And nobody wants to do it -- it's tedious, boring and never-ending; it certainly kills my motivation to contribute to Wikipedia. So I now pre-emptively archive URLs that I use to create citations. I used to do it manually until I discovered IAB. I also do it retrospectively to any Queensland article when it comes up on my watchlist, particularly if it comes up because of a URL change or because it is one in which I was the principal contributor (I'm fed up with my well-cited work being ruined by broken URLs). So, yes, your edit triggered my use of IAB as it met the criteria of one of "my" articles and experiencing a deadlink. As you say yourself, the CWGC is yet another site that breaks our citations; I'm not going to give it the benefit of the doubt any more, so I pre-emptively archive it. So long as the Internet Archive exists (please keep on donating as I do!), nobody need fix those URLs even again. The maintenance burden of Wikipedia articles is growing and few people want to do it, yet if we don't do it, Wikipedia will become a place of out-of-date information supported by dead URLs and readership will fall. So I think we have to create content wherever possible to be more failproof. I'd actually like to see this done automatically in Wikipedia; whenever someone saves an edit that introduces a URL, then that URL should be immediately archived and the archive details added automatically behind the scenes. In the meantime, IAB is our best solution so that nobody has to be "working through a lot of [insert arbitrary website] URLs", other than to flick the "deadurl" switch (I wish we had a tool to automate this task, there are issues using AWB as its expressive power is limited regular expressions whereas we need more of a context-free parser tool for this kind of task). Sorry for the long answer but you touched on an iceberg of a topic. Kerry (talk) 23:20, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

I understand. I will try and do that as well. I will go to Andy's talk page to ask about how to include archive URLs in the templates. Carcharoth (talk) 12:42, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

@Carcharoth and Pigsonthewing: Unfortunately many of our citation templates do not have provision for archiveurl fields and, as someone who maintains some templates myself, I don't know of any good solution to deal with archiveURLs when the template constructs the URL from an id/name field as does Template:CWGC. I don't have a good answer for that; maybe Andy does. I tend to only develop cite templates where I believe that the information is unlikely to disappear but may suffer URL renaming (the CWGC scenario) but unfortunately we also see such sites move away from having a URL to each entry to a more dynamic structure where the user must do a manual search with the results being reported via Javascript (or similar) rather than being addressable by a URL, which makes any form of URL citation difficult/impossible and archiving doubly-so. So I can think that we need the ability to 1) auto-archive URLs within Wikipedia and 2) allow the contributor to archive-via-Wikipedia a screenshot of a search result where there is no citable URL. Kerry (talk) 21:16, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Duplicate wikilinks

Hi Kerry, please don't create duplicate wikilinks in the body of an article, let alone the same sentence, as you did with your AWB edit to York, Western Australia. This is overlinking. Graham87 05:09, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

IABot

Noticed your edits with this and thought it'd be a useful tool to have, but have no idea how to actually use the thing. Any tips? The Drover's Wife (talk) 02:55, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

{{ping|The Drover's Wife|| It's the tool that the Internet Archive Bot uses that you will have seen in your watchlist. If I see an article that has lots of web citations (unless they are Trove ones which are guaranteed to be persistent), I use the iabot tool to either rescue them using the Internet Archive (if they are dead links) or create pre-emptive archives if they are live links. Having reached the link above, do Run Bot > Fix a Single page, and then you paste in the article title and tick the "add archives (optional)" and click Analyze. I have never used the "Submit a Job" option. I've only just started using it so it's a bit of experiment. Kerry (talk) 03:15, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! That's really helpful. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:51, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Teneriffe, Queensland

Hi Kerry -- thanks for your feedback! I was using "New Farm"actually which you contribute to as well I believe as a standard. I found the adjective "affluent" in New Farm's article, although it is uncited for New Farm, so decided to add a descriptor for Teneriffe as well but making sure it is cited.

The issue with the census, is because of the bundling of census data with Bowen Hills, New Stead and Teneriffe. Data isn't representative of the exact demographic in Teneriffe, so took the one from visitbrisbane, which I feel is a reputable enough source and I could be mistaken, not linked to any real estate firm?

The exact phrasing is "luxury riverside *real estate* hotspot in 2018", which is accurate I believe as per a national panel of experts and the phrasing clearly indicates real estate and isnt subjective as their definition applied to a national list of suburbs are 1million+ pricing if you go through the article and wasn't squarely focusing on Brissie ;)

I felt these are necessary additions to the Teneriffe page and I made sure to date (2018, 2017, etc) so the information there is relevant to the times with factual data, especially since the suburb has been amalagamated and split from Newstead in recent years so citable info can be difficult to find so actually stuck with info there that I can comfortably cite.

And oh, I don't have any commercial interest with Teneriffe, these are info I compiled (amongst for other nearby suburbs) during my "next suburb to live" hunt after moving to QLD recently ;) So I thought I'd share it as I felt only Fortitude Valley and New Farm had a reasonable amount of info there for others to start their research on :)

1runeberg (talk) 20:37, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Editing News #1—2018

Read this in another language • Subscription list for the English Wikipedia • Subscription list for the multilingual edition

Did you know?

Did you know that you can now use the visual diff tool on any page?

Sometimes, it is hard to see important changes in a wikitext diff. This screenshot of a wikitext diff (click to enlarge) shows that the paragraphs have been rearranged, but it does not highlight the removal of a word or the addition of a new sentence.

If you enable the Beta Feature for "⧼visualeditor-preference-visualdiffpage-label⧽", you will have a new option. It will give you a new box at the top of every diff page. This box will let you choose either diff system on any edit.

Click the toggle button to switch between visual and wikitext diffs.

In the visual diff, additions, removals, new links, and formatting changes will be highlighted. Other changes, such as changing the size of an image, are described in notes on the side.

This screenshot shows the same edit as the wikitext diff. The visual diff highlights the removal of one word and the addition of a new sentence. An arrow indicates that the paragraph changed location.

You can read and help translate the user guide, which has more information about how to use the visual editor.

Since the last newsletter, the Editing Team has spent most of their time supporting the 2017 wikitext editor mode, which is available inside the visual editor as a Beta Feature, and improving the visual diff tool. Their work board is available in Phabricator. You can find links to the work finished each week at mw:VisualEditor/Weekly triage meetings. Their current priorities are fixing bugs, supporting the 2017 wikitext editor, and improving the visual diff tool.

Recent changes

• The 2017 wikitext editor is available as a Beta Feature on desktop devices. It has the same toolbar as the visual editor and can use the citoid service and other modern tools. The team have been comparing the performance of different editing environments. They have studied how long it takes to open the page and start typing. The study uses data for more than one million edits during December and January. Some changes have been made to improve the speed of the 2017 wikitext editor and the visual editor. Recently, the 2017 wikitext editor opened fastest for most edits, and the 2010 WikiEditor was fastest for some edits. More information will be posted at mw:Contributors/Projects/Editing performance.
• The visual diff tool was developed for the visual editor. It is now available to all users of the visual editor and the 2017 wikitext editor. When you review your changes, you can toggle between wikitext and visual diffs. You can also enable the new Beta Feature for "Visual diffs". The Beta Feature lets you use the visual diff tool to view other people's edits on page histories and Special:RecentChanges. [3]
• Wikitext syntax highlighting is available as a Beta Feature for both the 2017 wikitext editor and the 2010 wikitext editor. [4]
• The citoid service automatically translates URLs, DOIs, ISBNs, and PubMed id numbers into wikitext citation templates. This tool has been used at the English Wikipedia for a long time. It is very popular and useful to editors, although it can be tricky for admins to set up. Other wikis can have this service, too. Please read the instructions. You can ask the team to help you enable citoid at your wiki.

Let's work together

• The team is planning a presentation about editing tools for an upcoming Wikimedia Foundation metrics and activities meeting.
• Wikibooks, Wikiversity, and other communities may have the visual editor made available by default to contributors. If your community wants this, then please contact Dan Garry.
• The <references /> block can automatically display long lists of references in columns on wide screens. This makes footnotes easier to read. This has already been enabled at the English Wikipedia. If you want columns for a long list of footnotes on this wiki, you can use either <references /> or the plain (no parameters) {{reflist}} template. If you edit a different wiki, you can request multi-column support for your wiki. [5]
• If you aren't reading this in your preferred language, then please help us with translations! Subscribe to the Translators mailing list or contact us directly. We will notify you when the next issue is ready for translation. Thank you!

—User:Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:14, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Kudos on Peel Island

Just a note about this article. I'm a WikiGnome who mostly does minor typo/mos corrections. I found this article to be excellent and intriguing (I don't always have, or take, the time to read the ones I edit). I note from the history that you contributed a lot to it. Thanks for that -- and for all else you do here. --LilHelpa (talk) 21:31, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

@LilHelpa: Thanks, but I can't take the credit. The bulk of the article was written by an SPA in two edits. I just did a lot of cleaning up of the citations, wikilinks, etc. Kerry (talk) 22:31, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Ah. I see that now. The bulk of their editing career. Too bad. Well, thanks for the cleaning! And for setting me straight. --LilHelpa (talk) 11:11, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

A Kitten For You!

Dear Ms. Raymond -

Thank you for thanking me for my edit on the Lamington National Park page! I found the page looking for Wikipedia articles that need citations. I'm glad it caught my eye - the park looks absolutely beautiful! I hope I can visit someday. Anyway, this is the first time I've been thanked for an edit! So, thank YOU!

- Jake Rose (rose64bit) rose64bit@gmail.com

rose64bit 16:08, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

→https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Merchandise_giveaways/Nominations#Kerry_Raymond Your edit on my talk page was really inspiring! Thanks again! - rose64bit (talk) 15:06, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Stones Corner

Thanks for doing the info box for Stones Corner. I was going to do that next when I got time.

Also, thanks for correcting the mistake I made on the Annerley page. I had a map that clearly shows that Annerley doesn't border Stones Corner. I think my brain must have been addled when I did that edit.

—Ozzieboy (talk) 07:00, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

@Ozzieboy:. If you haven't discovered it, the Queensland Globe (also available as Google Earth overlays) is the Wikipedian's friend for reliable Queensland geography. Turn on the locality layers and you can see the boundaries in great detail. As luck would have it, it's down for maintenance this afternoon but give it go another day. It's the basis for most of the Queensland geography I write. Kerry (talk) 07:22, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Thomas Pye, architect has been accepted

Thomas Pye, architect, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on the article's talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

You are more than welcome to continue making quality contributions to Wikipedia. If your account is more than four days old and you have made at least 10 edits you can create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for Creation if you prefer.

• If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the help desk.
• If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider .

Thank you for helping improve Wikipedia!

Kerry (talk) 09:02, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Roger East (journalist)

Can you and the other WP:Australia people help me with Roger East (journalist) ? He deserves a better article. Paul Benjamin Austin (talk) 17:13, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

He probably does but he's well outside of my areas of expertise. Might overlap more with the interests of User:JarrahTree? Kerry (talk) 06:33, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

I saw Jill Jolliffe's book in an op shop the other day - if it's still there I might have a crack at it. The Drover's Wife (talk) 09:10, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

This conversation is continued at Talk:Roger East (journalist). Cheers. Rangasyd (talk) 14:20, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

why delete something which clearly isn't vandalism

my contribution on (Julia Creek) to reduce the amount of racist articles was %100 constructive and I would ask you to please cease and desist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.247.41 (talk) 05:48, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Your change of "The town was named after the niece of Donald McIntyre, the first white settler in the area" to "the first human settler" either implies that there were no Indigenous people in the area before that time or that there were but there were not human. Given the pattern of your other edits today: [6] &

[7], it's fairly difficult to presume good faith. Kerry (talk) 05:56, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

It is hard to assume that you are anything more than a feminazi wiki troll, Desist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.247.41 (talk) 08:56, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Lol just seen this. I reckon we should actually keep this guy for the comedy value. Sorry to gatecrash your talk page but I couldn't resist when I saw what he called you. Dr. Vogel (talk) 02:12, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

May we put you on our experts panel?

Hi Kerry. Thanks for all your great input on the In-Context Help and Onboarding project. We’re making a list of people like yourself, with experience supporting and teaching newbies, to consult with as we design and build this new system. May we put you on that list?

If so, it would be most convenient if I could pass your email address on to the our Design Researcher. If that’s OK with you, please email me; my address is on my talk page. Also let us know what time zone you're in. If you'd like to participate but prefer not to email, we can get in touch on this page or however you prefer. Let me know. Thanks again! JMatazzoni (WMF) (talk) 00:37, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

I am happy to participate. I'm in Brisbane, Queensland, Autralia, which is UTC+10 (Australian Eastern Standard Time, not Australian Eastern Daylight Saving Time which applies in Sydney and Melbourne). I'll send my email address as you request. Kerry (talk) 00:51, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

3DB (Melbourne)

The article 3DB (Melbourne) wasn't written by me but it needs work. Especially the rant justifying 3DB's use of racist minstrel shows by saying we can't just the past by present values. Paul Benjamin Austin (talk) 06:38, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Courses Modules are being deprecated

Hello,

Your account is currently configured with an education program flag. This system (the Courses system) is being deprecated. As such, your account will soon be updated to remove these no longer supported flags. For details on the changes, and how to migrate to using the replacement system (the Programs and Events Dashboard) please see Wikipedia:Education noticeboard/Archive 18#NOTICE: EducationProgram extension is being deprecated.

Thank you! Sent by: xaosflux 20:28, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Processed. — xaosflux ^Talk 23:14, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Signpost issue 4 – 29 March 2018

• Op-ed: Death knell for The Signpost?

• News and notes: Wiki Conference roundup and new appointments.

• Arbitration report: Ironing out issues in infoboxes; not sure yet about New Jersey; and an administrator who probably wasn't uncivil to a sockpuppet.

• In the media: The media on Wikipedia's workings: the good and not-so-good

• Traffic report: Real sports, real women and an imaginary country: what's on top for Wikipedia readers

• Featured content: Animals, Ships, and Songs

• Technology report: Timeless skin review by Force Radical.

• Special report: ACTRIAL wrap-up.

• Humour: WikiWorld Reruns

* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:49, 29 March 2018 (UTC)