Talk:Pho/Archive 1

Archive 1

Noodles

Hate to break it to you all but Pho is actually traditionally made with fresh cut flat rice "hor fun" noodles, not vermicelli as claimed in this article. Maybe that's the way they make it in the United States and Canada but here in Australia and in both Hanoi and Saigon, where I have eaten Pho in numerous establishments, even from local street vendors, it is always served with cut flat rice noodle. ADD: sorry, i'm a wiki newb, i posted this at work then when I came home I read the reference to the chinese noodle and thought I must have missed it the 1st time ;) Not realising that someone had edited it in the 15 minutes it takes to get home. This is good, I would still call it "flat white rice noodle" not "thin white rice noodle", and removing the reference to vermicelli is definitely correct. Also, I do believe the noodles are actually made in sheets and cut to a desired width, but that is more appropriate for the Shahe fen article, not this one. Registered myself vespine 07/02/2006

Great, welcome! Question: can you add the right diacritic markings for "banh"? Also, what kind of banh is used for pho? Is it called "banh pho"? Also, what is the width of original northern pho noodles? I don't think they're very wide, but wider than southern style. The southern style pho noodles I'm familiar with are flat and fairly thin (about the width of Italian linguini), definitely not vermicelli which is very thin and round. Thanks for helping to clarify. Badagnani 09:37, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks:) I'm hopeless with diacritics, but I have a relationship with a few of the restaurants I visit which I can ask. Where I live the culture is very mixed between Chinese and Vietnamese (in fact, many Pho restaurants are actually owned by Chinese proprietors including one of the most famous CBD Pho restaurants "Me Kong" http://www.visitvictoria.com/displayObject.cfm/objectid.429446A0-1AAB-48C3-ABEBC2579B1D9D13/vvt.vhtml) so I've known the noodles simply as hor fun. The noodles which I've most commonly come across are definitely considerably thicker then linguini, they would be almost kway teow width. Though it has been about 4 years since I was in Vietnam and I've had a lot of Australian pho since then. Which by the way, becasue of Australian produce, even my vietnamese friends admit is better here ;) vespine 09:55, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Interesting, the pho noodles they use here (Cleveland, Ohio, USA) are linguini width. Pho has only just been introduced here a few years ago and has become very popular, also among Chinese. The wide kind are just found in stir-fried dishes (including the kind where the noodles curl up in little tubular spirals--I like these. Badagnani 10:01, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Properties of bánh phở

• Width: I have not seen bánh phở that is wider than 1/4". The thinnest I have seen is probably 1/16".
• Shape: bánh phở is definitely a "cut" noodle i.e. cut from a flat thin sheet, not a round noodle i.e. not extruded, like spaghetti or bún (rice vermicelli).

Andy 19:44, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Restaurant signs

Is it a common case around the world that Phở restaurants often have signs shaped as a cow? That's fairly common in Paris. David.Monniaux 22:48, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

In Little Saigon southern California, chicken Ph&#7903 is more common than beef or pork -- those that don't serve all three specialize in chicken. I don't notice a particular shape or graphic used for the signs here. GUllman 23:21, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

I live in the city of San Gabriel in California (United States) where there's a sizable Vietnamese American community. Little Saigon in Orange County is way off for me, so this is the closest access to Vietnamese cuisine. The pho restaurants here serve mainly the beef variety. I normally ask several waiters in each and every Pho restaurants. Some Vietnamese restaurants I've seen have a picture of a cow on their windows but it's not entirely widespread.

Comment above written by User:172.193.17.99; please sign your posts.

I live in the South San Francisco Bay Area, where there's a large Vietnamese American community, especially in San Jose. I haven't seen any cow shaped signs on Pho restuarants in my area. — J3ff 04:15, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

i don't believe i have ever seen a phở restaurant sign with a cow on it. the ones i see usually involve a bowl and/or chopsticks. lalalalalala (talk) 20:19, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

<******moved rest of discusion to origins because it better fits. Also they guy that started origins seems to be continuing the above discusion so it's confusing*****>

Pronunciation

Could someone check out IPA in Unicode and make a proper IPA transcription? I'm terribly dissatisfied with just the "fuh" right now. I don't think the pronunciation is really clear to non-native English speakers.

Peter ^Isotalo June 29, 2005 03:38 (UTC)

I haven't heard any Vietnamese pronounce it, but from the description in this article, I think /fə/ might be close. I'll put it in, if anyone knows better, please correct. —Michael Z. 2005-08-15 17:05 Z

According to the Vietnamese alphabet article, the hook over the ơ represents a dipping-rising tone. Anyone have a clue how to transcribe that properly? For now, I've labelled it as "pronounced /fə/ by English-speakers". —Michael Z. 2005-08-15 17:12 Z

Transcription of falling rising in IPA should be something like ^ followed by an acute.. a little bit like a flattened capital N. (Tangentially, I've always found IPA tone diacritics unsatisfying). Anyway, the tone currently marked is definitely incorrect, but I can't find the unicode for the correct one. Should we remove the tone as currently marked, or leave it incorrect?nhinchey (talk) 21:53, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

On Boingboing.net they say it's supposed to be pronounced "fur?" There is a videoclip here [1] with people talking about it, but I can't get it to load...they say the letters are like "fuh" but the tone is even, then drops, then rises...Katsam 10:00, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I found a flash movie where they pronounce and mispronounce it for comic effect. But beware, the movie is stupid and full of cursing and dumb ethnic jokes. Here it is:[2]Katsam 10:17, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Might be racist but the guy hosting it is Chinese. =S

"Fur" is a good approximation for the word phơ. The word phở requires a bit more gymnastics with the pronunciation. The above recommendation of "even, then drops, then rises" is a good start. Andy 19:34, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

No it shouldn't be "fur" cause I'm vietnamese and I know how. It's more like the u sound in "tub," plus the "ph" sound. --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.229.5.245 (talk • contribs)

ok...i agree with the above...start by taking the uh sound in "tub" and adding "ph" to the beginning. so i guess if u write it, it's like, "phuh." then say "phuh uh" and connect it by going up, around, and then down with your voice, like a question mark. the accent above the o with the hook is translated directly in vietnamese as "accent question." i'm also vietnamese, so this should be quite helpful. i hope. lalalalalala (talk) 02:04, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

My father is Chinese born and raised in Vietnam (well... namely, he is Cantonese and from Saigon... if that matters). I've been eating this dish for as long as I can remember, as my aunts know how to make it pretty well. We've eaten it countless times, but it's always been with my aunt (homemade) or at restaurants. For as long as I can remember, I've heard everyone I know (even non-Chinese or non-Vietnamese) say "fuh". There is a place where I live in Los Angeles called Pho Ga, and I heard them say "fur" on the radio. My dad said that was totally incorrect. I'm pretty sure it's not "feh" either, never heard that one. Whenever I speak to true Vietnamese, they say it's "fuh" as well and understand what I'm saying. Lady Galaxy 19:26, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

It depends on whether you're British or American. If you're British, "fur" is a pretty good approximation (because Brits will lengthen the vowel and drop the R). If you're American, you'd be better off saying "phuh-uh". (Or if you know French, say it like French "feu".) 96.45.196.227 (talk) 17:27, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

In Sydney, Vietnamese people always pronounce it as "fur". 124.149.65.55 (talk) 05:26, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Origin

The fact of pho originating from North Vietnam is a misconception. Actually pho "noodles" themselves were around south east asia long before, probably dating hundreds of years. It's quite noticeable in where pho is enjoyed, such as countries like Thailand, Laos, Cambodia ect. Not likley vietnamese influence spread to these countries in such short a time that each country developed such a diverse style. Acutally the majority of the culture/food/ect of the region is directley influenced either by china or thai/siamese. Most ingredients (including the noodles) are written with Thai/Chinese labels. Just in the recent couple decades has pho actually made its way into the USA. Most in part of the influx of South East Asians into the USA, most notible are the Vietanamese refugees from the 60-70's. Prior to that, the South East Asian population was low and Pho was unheard of to the western world. Some shops in California is starting to go beyond "basic" Pho. Just ask a Lao or Thai friend to make some Pho, you'll understand. One thing is for sure, without the Vietnamese, America would have not been able to discover the greatest jewl of South East Asia, Pho.

I tend to agree, I live in San Francisco and I have Vietnamese, Thiland and Laos friends and I admit the Laos version is much better. A little sweet + sour, garlicky and very very hot. The Thailand one with a hint of coconut is great also. [jay415]

The information came from several newspaper articles (including several English and Vietnamese-language ones). Another theory claimed that it was the French in Vietnam that came up with the noodles. If you have other theories, then add them.

No way that the French created rice noodles. Most likely, Chinese created white and rice noodles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.70.150.203 (talk) 03:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

in thailand, called "kuay tiow" or simply "bowl of noodles" and made of pure rice (no flour). my grandma is 80 and she says she learned how to make it from her grandparents so it must be old. i think pho is just generic term for it but the same thing is eaten all over south asia with different name. must be a really old dish before europe invader i think, maybe china made it up they been eating noodles for thousand years and cultivated rice for even longer. makes sense it might of came from china. saying vietnam or france made up rice noodle is just like saying japan invented the "rice ball" yeah right. (the moviedude)

Almost all Asian countries have a noodle dish. Where the hell does it say the Vietnamese invented noodles? What they invented was this particular noodle DISH. Of course if you add other crap like coconut juice then it's not pho anymore now, is it?

Hey people here's a question. What if I had a burger and added other crap like bacon to it, would it still be called a burger? Pho came from Laos

If I make spaghetti and instead of using tomato sauce I decide to use apple sauce, is it still considered spaghetti? And will the dish be considered Chinese because the Chinese invented noodles?

This discussion is laughable. In Vietnamese "pho" is not synonymous with noodle; rather, it is the name of a specific noodle dish prepared with a specific kind of rice noodle and specific kind of soup. The Vietnamese have different names for different kinds of noodles (besides "pho", there are also "bun", "mien", "mi",and "banh da") so please don't lump every noodle dish that you know together under the name "pho". If a noodle dish looks different and tastes different from the Vietnamese "pho" then of course it's NOT "pho". Call it by the name it's called in its native country. I don't think the Laotians or the Chinese would be pleased to hear that their noodle dishes are labeled "pho" by some people. (A native Vietnamese)

Italians developed that type of noodle, just as the Chineese developed the common "rice stick" noodle. Americans took the Italian invention and made thier own version of "Spaghetti and Meatballs". Just others did the same thing with common Pho (the dish). People call it different things, some call it Pho. It's just mainstream to call it that nowadays (which would be too long to describe why). Same ingredients, same way to prepare, (well depends on how many ways one can steam a rice noodle), but in my opinon, just different name. My arugement is that this dish might have not originated in Vietnam, but rather just alot of Vietnamese brought it around the world as well as its Vietnamesed version of its name. Vietnamese capitalized on it overseas as in the case of America.

Lets face it, steamed rice stick, beef broth, and a local few spices. In my opinion, "Pho" as we know it is a product of the greater South East Asia, (Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Southern China) and not exclusive to Vietnam (except the name). Just like the Chili Dog in Chicago, Bratwurst in Wisconson, all just minor variations of good ol fashioned Hot Dog. Come to think of it, there was actually a debate and press conference between Vietnamese and Eurpoeans about this wonderful foods origins. You can see it right here: http://www.vietworldkitchen.com/features/pho-corlou.htm

Just my opinion of course, but makes for a nice debate you think?

Interesting discussion. I can only compare Pho to Thai cuisine. But I would like to point out that while similar noodle dishes have existed in Thailand for centuries, Thais consider Pho to be a different dish. Pho is actually fairly popular in Bangkok and is served at Vietnamese restaurants.

Use of beef in particular is pretty uncommon in Thailand ( in the past) because cattle were traditionally used as a draught animal. Not until recently has it been popularly bread for meat. I suppose it might have come more quickly in Vietnam due to French rule.

A lot of the other spices and flavours in Thai noodle dishes are pretty different even if you don't consider beef. Though most roadside vendors tend to have chicken, seafood, or pork (chicken not so much anymore with bird flu). The bean sprouts are usually cooked in broth a bit before serving and other vegetables will also vary.

The broth is a primary difference. It may vary depending on the chef but the average pho is quite different from the average keuteuw nam.

Noodles from Laos may be more similar to pho, but as a previous poster suggested I would agree that there is also a distinctiveness to the Lao noodle soup. I've been to a lot of Laotian restaurants in Bangkok and you can definitly taste a difference. While all of our countries are neighboring we may have some common influences but we bring our own distinctiveness to the dishes. --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.109.157.132 (talk • contribs)

You mean spices makes things taste different? Surely, you jest. The same thing happens when I look at Asians. I tend to ignore the spices (their culture). Black hair, brown eyes? Rook rike Chinese to me! Of course the most hilarious discussion was the one from Mr. Amateur Chef and Connoisseur who tried to brag about his credentials but was shown his taste buds were lacking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.25.71.227 (talk) 02:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Saying Phở originated from Northern Vietnam isn't a misconception because it is. Some non-Vietnamese Southeast Asians seem to be in great confusion. We're talking about Phở, not some Lao, Khmer, or Thai noodle dish. If it is some Lao, Khmer, or Thai dish, we would not call it Phở anymore. As a matter of fact, the noodle dishes in Thailand, Cambodia, and Laos are derived from Teochew noodles, hence they taste more like hủ tiếu in Vietnam, not Phở. You could see that the word for noodle in Thailand and Cambodia is Kuytew which comes straight out of the Teochew pronunciation of 粿條 (Vietnamese "hủ tiếu" is derived from this word too. Also note that hủ tiếu only exist in South Vietnam where there are many Teochew settlements). Phở is only one of many types of noodles in Vietnamese: bún, miến, bánh canh, mì...In English, Pho refers to the specific type of Vietnamese beef noodle, though in Vietnam we can have chicken phở as well, it's still different from hủ tiếu of course. A few Vietnamese noodle dishes come from the Southern Chinese immigrants but most Vietnamese noodle dishes are traditional Vietnamese. For example, mì vịt tiềm (a type of duck noodle) from Saigon has Teochew origin, but mì quảng from Quảng Nam is a traditional Vietnamese dish. Sunnyrain90 (talk) 09:19, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Hope this clears things up because I see some people compare Phở to some Thai, Khmer, and Lao noodles as if they are just variations of the same dish. Well they are distinct dishes like burrito and taco. Variations of the same dish would be something like: Vietnamese chicken phở and beef phở, crab bún riêu and fish bún riêu. Even dishes whose names start with the same type of noodle like bún chả,bún thang, bún mộc, bún riêu, bún ốc, bún bò... are considered distinct dishes in Vietnam, not variations of each other, let alone something as different as Phở and Kuytew. Sunnyrain90 (talk) 09:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

"Traditional" or "inherited"?

Someone removed the word "traditional" from "...phở is a traditional Vietnamese noodle soup dish" saying that phở is "(Not traditional, but inherited.)"
Here we go again! I won't argue about whether phở is inherited because in matters culinary, just about everything is "inherited" from somewhere/something else. However, phở is as "traditional" and as "Vietnamese" as it gets. You can find many similar noodle soups but you will not find anything exactly like phở.
Saying that phở is not "traditional" Vietnamese food because it is "inherited" is like arguing that spaghetti and bolognese sauce is not "traditional" Italian food because pasta did not originate in Italy.
Andy Nguyen 19:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Comments

A few comments:

• "Pho" (actually "bánh phở" when referring to the noodles themselves) is a Vietnamese word for rice noodles of Chinese origin. These rice noodles, called Shahe fen in Chinese, are believed to have been developed in Guangzhou, Guangdong, China in the 1800s. Earlier than this, the Chinese had noodles made out of wheat and before that, thousands of years ago, they used millet. I'm not why, if it's true that the Shahe fen were developed in the 1800s, they never thought of using rice before that. Any new scholarship on this would be welcome.

1800s? Hm, rice noodles in Vietnam have been around much longer than that, considering the great number of distinct rice noodle dishes in Vietnam. Also, the main word for rice noodle in Vietnam "bún" is widely used throughout all three regions of Vietnam, suggesting that bún (rice noodle) had been an integral part of Vietnamese cuisine long before Vietnamese started the southward migration. Because if not, "bún" would be either distinct of North Vietnam, Central Vietnam, or South Vietnam. But "bún" dishes are common and numerous throughout all three regions of Vietnam. Hủ tiếu is distinct of South Vietnam and not found in North Vietnam because it entered the country from the Teochew immigrants in South Vietnam. Bánh đa cua is distinct of North Vietnam probably because it developed in North Vietnam after the southward expansion had started. 1800s is the time when the southward expansion of the Vietnamese had long completed. If rice noodle entered Vietnam during this time, it would become a distinct food of a region and the number of rice noodle dishes in Vietnam would not be so large (I think the number of our rice noodle dishes is like 50x greater than the number of our wheat noodle dishes.) Bún, phở, bánh canh...are all rice noodles but the difference between them is the thickness, the shape, and the texture of the noodle. I think bún (the round, thin rice noodle) developed first, then phở (thin rectangular) developed, then bánh canh (thick tough round rice noodle) and other types of noodle developed later.Sunnyrain90 (talk) 10:43, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

• The Vietnamese term "pho" probably comes from the last syllable of the Chinese name, "fen" (粉), pronounced "fěn" (with low-rising tone in Mandarin and "fan2" (with mid-rising tone) in Cantonese. "Banh pho" can be used to prepare pho soup or stir-fried pho, which is very similar to the southern Chinese dish char kway tiao (and also somewhat similar to pad Thai).
• The Vietnamese noodle soup colloquially called "pho" is similar to hot Chinese noodle soups but uses local Vietnamese ingredients. It's very likely that it originated after the introduction of the Shahe fen noodles from China, then local chefs developed the soup using local Vietnamese ingredients (including the beef and local spices). The spices and beef are used in both southern and northern Vietnamese versions of pho. I believe cassia (cinnamon) trees are grown primarily in central and northern Vietnam. As scallions are used to garnish the dish in northern pho, this would be more similar to a Chinese noodle soup garnish, and the southern use of basil and other herbs would give it a more Southeast Asian flavor.
• What is the evidence that, within Vietnam, the northern region was not the first to create the recipe for pho soup? That is generally accepted, I think, though many Vietnamese I know agree that the Southern version is much more elaborate and yummier, with the addition of more varieties of herbs. Badagnani 15:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
• The main article states that the Pho restaurants in the US are catering to foreign tastes and are sometimes making Pho with chicken; I'm in Nha Trang at the moment, travelling north, and so far throughout Vietnam I've seen Pho Bo (Beef), Pho Heo (Pork) and Pho Ga (Chicken) in all the cities I've visited, including street side vendors catering almost exclusively to the Vietnamese. Has this spread back to Vietnam or is the statement incorrect and it originated here? -- Liam, liam@elyobo.net (203.210.252.20)

Hope you're having a good time (how did you find the time to edit Wikipedia?). Why not ask some of the vendors (through your tour guide if you can't speak Vietnamese) how long they can remember pho with these other meats. Some of the older folks will probably have some thoughts and memories about this. Pho is a subject of much controversy, as you've probably realized, both among Vietnamese as well as foreigners. Badagnani 03:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The chicken phở has been around longer than beef phở, because traditionally Vietnamese rarely used beef as an ingredient in their cuisine. The trend of eating beef started in cities of Vietnam during the French colonial period then spread to other parts of Vietnam. Before this, Vietnamese used ox to make phở broth, then beef gradually replaced ox as the main ingredient of phở. Interestingly, a friend of mine grew up in rural Bắc Giang (North Vietnam) told me that he had never tasted beef phở before, the people where he lived only ate chicken phở.Sunnyrain90 (talk) 10:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

No source I've read has said that chicken pho predates beef. In fact, they usually say the opposite - that pho began as a beef soup. If you have some sources which support your assertion, please provide them. Mamalujo (talk) 18:06, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Yea, I read that beef phở came first on English websites too. However, an old Bắc Kỳ woman in Vietnam once told me that chicken phở came before beef phở. That old woman might have ben mistaken but I got a friend from Bắc Giang, and he said he'd never heard or tasted beef phở until he came to the US, only chicken phở. I thought that was really strange because beef phở is the most popular in Vietnam, but then he came from a quite isolated place with many minorities so I guess his family didn't catch up with the trend, which led me to believe that chicken phở was around in rural North Vietnam before phở got popular in Hanoi with its beef-flavor broth, hence the chicken phở is more prevalent in the rural. In cities, chicken phở are less common. My guess is when the Northern Vietnamese brought phở to Saigon in 1954, they brought with them the popular beef phở (most Northern Vietnamese who migrated to South Vietnam were Catholics lived in cities), so beef phở was introduced to South Vietnam before chicken phở. In other words, beef phở was made popular throughout the country before chicken phở, so some people think it predates the chicken phở. But yea, this is just what I believe based on personal experience and I just share it in this discussion page. I may be wrong so it's up to the reader whether to believe it. But one thing I'm sure is that chicken phở was in Vietnam before it came to the US, not "spread from the US back to Vietnam," because if it "spread from the US back to Vietnam," it'd be more prevalent in cities than rural North Vietnam. Hehe hope you enjoy the reading. :) Sunnyrain90 (talk) 19:52, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

• Pho is actually the traditional Chinese word for "fire" as from the Cantonese. Here in Vancouver, BC, Canada, there is this Vietnamese restaurant - GT Express - that has the particular Chinese character on it's sidewalk billboard sign. ~ fredma44 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fredma44 (talk • contribs) 06:24, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Humor

Is this really necessary? What relevance does this have, really? I don't think we need the curse word in there either. --Goodkarma 19:59, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Lmao I thought it was funny. Anyway, it was to hear the way Americans pronounce it

So would a line of people waiting to enter a Vietnamese restaurant be a phở queue? --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.4.194.98 (talk • contribs)

Restaurant guide

I removed the section pasted below from the article. The information here is tantamount to an eating guide, something Wikipedia most certainly is not. To generally describe where pho is served is okay, but not to list trivia like waiting times and such. I'm not sure if all the information here is unencyclopedic, but the section most certainly isn't. Please readd info you feel is vital to the article, but keep in mind not to turn into a general trivia collection about pho.

Peter ^Isotalo 16:40, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Some of this definitely belongs. I came here to try to figure out when so many phở restaurants have numbers in their names. At least the first paragraph should be included. --BDD 22:21, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

That's why I came here, too. Near me, there's Pho75 and Pho88, but they don't seem to be part of a chain. I thought maybe the numbers are inspired by Pho24, the Vietnamese restaurant chain, in Vietnam. Entwhiz (talk) 01:51, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Restaurants offering phở

In the United States, many phở restaurants are found in many Chinatowns, Little Saigons, and other communities with a large Vietnamese immigrant population. Many phở restaurants tend to use digits in their names (for example, Phở 54 Restaurant or Phở 888 Restaurant), which may have or may not have a significant meaning. For example, Phở 54 and Phở 79 signified the years when their owners fled North Vietnam and Vietnam, respectively. Also, in Vietnamese culture the number 8 is considered to be lucky.

Hmm, I don't know around the rest of America, but up in the Washington state area, they've been a lot of new resturants opening with humourous names such as What The Pho? or Pho King Good. Hmm maybe someone should add that. I thought it was noteworthy.

As with many restaurants, the types of phở restaurants can range from small mom-and-pop "hole in the wall" greasy spoons serving low-priced phở to elegant dining establishments serving Vietnamese and fusion cuisine. Some of the first phở shops that opened up in the United States were in the city San Jose, California. Sauces such as hoisin, fish sauce, and the Sriracha style hot sauce are often popular condiments that go with every phở meal. In addition to noodles, many phở noodle restaurants in the U.S. may also serve other Vietnamese dishes such as rice combination plates called cơm tấm, baguette sandwiches (bánh mì), seven courses of beef (bò 7 món), and French-style coffee (cà phê sữa đá).

On many phở menus, phở noodle dishes come in several sizes and prices. Non-Vietnamese-speaking customers can order by using the corresponding number in English. For example, a "Number 1" might be a special extra large bowl (phở đặc biệt xe lửa) with all the works (actual menus will vary with each and every restaurant). In many phở restaurants, the noodle dish is usually prepared in less than 5 minutes upon ordering. Jasmine tea is served, but coffee, soy milk, lemonade, or cold Thai tea is typically appropriate with phở as well.

With relatively inexpensive prices and a large proliferation of phở restaurants in North America and France, phở is gradually becoming a favorite worldwide.

Temperature of Noodles

Are the noodles supposed to be cooled before they are added to the broth, or is something supposed to be done to the dish to maintiain a "correct" temperature that is not too hot nor too cold at the time of serving? I ask this because I recently had Pho in a city in Asia where I don't think they ever had a Pho restaurant before, and when I had it, the right ingredients seemed to be present but I couldn't help thinking that they had gotten the temperature all wrong. Basically, it was too fricking hot, so much so that it made eating it slow and difficult. I thought back to the proper Pho in other countries I had had before, and I don't seem to recall such a problem with temperature. So, are the noodles in fact supposed to be cooled before adding it to the hot broth? --211.116.85.45 00:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes,in Ha Noi,Pho 's noodles are cooled down before added to the broth

As far as I know, there's no "right" temperature for phở. It's variously a matter of:

• personal preference: some people rinse the phở noodles in hot water or hot broth before serving to prevent it from cooling off the broth too much; some people add ice cubes to their phở to bring the temperature down to their liking!
• restaurant health regulations requiring soups to be of a certain temperature
• restaurant science recommending a "serving" temperature for soups.

Andy 19:24, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I never had cold noodle-kind pho before. Maybe you're talking about something else because how would the meat cook? And stuff like that.

I must say that personal experience indicates that almot all phở places use warm/hot noodles. As for the heat required to cook the meat, I have two things to say: 1. There'd be no raw meat if one orders the "all cooked meats" variety of phở, and 2. Some people prefer the meat as rare as possible, to the point of requesting that the meat be kept separate, to be added to the broth by the diner only at the last minute, to avoid overcooking! Andy 22:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• Agree with the above, noodles are not specifically 'cooled'. Most restaurants and even the street vendors in Vietnam use fresh rice noodle, as opposed to the 'dry' type which needs to be cooked. The noodles are added to the bowl at ambient temperature then the boiling broth is poured over the top. The result is still rather hot tho as it needs to be able to cook the raw meat that typically gets added with the noodles. Vespine 05:38, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Merging Kuyteav in this article

• Support - Kuyteav has been nothing more that a stub for almost a year and it is basically the same dish, prepared, eaten and even garnished in the same fashion. Even the name is from the Chinese name of the noodles used, "kway teow". Kuyteav should then redirect here and we can include a sentence similar to "Pho, called Kuyteav in Cambodia...", then add template for "Cambodian Cuisine" Category. The only alternative would be to copy and paste this article on the Kuyteav page, thereby making two articles exactly the same (not desirable).--WilliamThweatt 03:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Um, I don't know to what extent Kuyteav resembles "pho", but the Vietnamese can be really particular about what noodle dish can be accurately called "pho", since "pho" is a specific dish, not just any kind of noodle. So I don't think we should say "Pho, called Kuyteav in Cambodia...". Instead we could say something like "In Cambodia there's a dish similar to Pho called Kuyteav..."

As you say, you "don't know to what extent Kuyteav resembles pho". I do: it's the same. I've had pho in Vietnamese households and at numerous Vietnamese restaraunts in various countries and I've also had Kuyteav in many Cambodian houses and restaraunts. Being an amateur chef and connoisseur, I can tell you: same noodles, same ingredients, same garnishes; same dish. I will say however, that whether talking about Cambodian, Vietnamese, Thai or Lao, the dish served in restaraunts differs from that served in the home kitchens. Although the noodles are invariably the same, the soup and broth made at home can contain many different ingredients (beef, pork, chicken, seafood, etc.), depending on what one has available. By the way, FYI, Cambodians also are particular about what Westerners simply call "noodles". "Kuyteav" specifically refers to this type of noodle, other words such as "mi", "mi suor", "laat na", etc. are used to refer to other types of noodles.--WilliamThweatt 23:34, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

You didn't mention, however, that (as for guotiao/kway tiao), the name "pho" can also describe a (soup-less) dish of wide rice noodles stir fried with vegetables and/or meats, which is distinct from the better known pho soup dish. Badagnani 05:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose - Noodles commonly associated with phở may be used with other soup bases, but that doesn't make those other soups phở. Alyssa3467 23:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose

this is ridiculous... pho noodles also have nothing to do with a collective "southeast asian dish"...you can find similar beef noodle soups in japan and korea as well. and you cannot include south china as part of southeast asia to begin with, because culturally it's part of the same entity as northern china (especially when we're talking about pho, which is a modern invention)

and it's not the same. that's absolutely ridiculous. I've seen countless forum threads made about the khmer version and all the khmer people have said it tastes different from pho. In fact, you're the only person I've ever heard saying they're exactly the same.

Btw, If anything Khmer people have said it resembled Vietnamese hu tieu which is a basic broth and resembles soups from practically every country. In fact, another name for kuyteav is HU TIEU NAM VANG.

btw, culture in vietnam flowed virtually one way, that's from the north to the south. all other influences are miniscule and almost invisible. that's why pho WAS influenced by china (north!)..because the idea of noodle soups came from china in the first place, then spread EVERYWHERE across asia. if you're going to compare the khmer version and the viet version..I think you should include the thai, korean, japanese, lao, and even chinese version as well..why not MERGE those?! And yes they all have their own special names too..

someone on here mentioned that two of the versions are exactly the same..well have you ever thought that that's because the one you ate actually was the vietnamese version? I have khmer friends who basically eat straight out vietnamese foods at home. that's even more of a given for khmer-krom. according to one of my khmer friends, many foreign dishes have their ORIGINAL names retained simply to show that they came from somewhere else. the khmer version of pho is not one such dish, but you can look at some other noodle soup dishes in khmer cuisine and see that they even mention the word "yuon" in their title(which means "vietnamese" in khmer) in certain dishes to signify Vietnamese influence.

Conclusion: What the Chinese brought to Cambodia would be the equivalent of Vietnamese HU TIEU, not Vietnamese Pho. Hu tieu is an extremely basic noodle soup broth dish.. Need I mention that in threads I've seen practically all the Khmer people have agreed that Pho and Kuyteav are NOT the same?

Have a look at this just for one example: http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=34789&hl=kuyteav&st=0

And you're wrong again on the origins of Pho, every Vietnamese person knows Pho came from the North, regardless of your personal theories on it..--Aerisalive 08:06, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose-The process of making pho's broth is kind of analogous to consommé. At least, that's how my granparents', who used to have a pho shop, and my uncle, who owns a successful business, have explained it to me. Unless kuyteav employs a similar method, I don't think they should be merged.--Nosmik 08:06, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose-Even if a similar method was employed, that wouldn't warrant merging another nation's dish or adaptation of a dish into the same article. There are plenty of other countries who have counterparts to Pho...why not merge those? Why is it just the Khmer version?

• Oppose The person claiming they are the same is mistaken. The key spice ingredients in Pho are cinnamon and star anise, they give the soup the distinct flavour regardless to the regional differences that can be experienced even from restaurant to restaurant. The recipe linked to Kuyteav does not include either of those ingredients. Vespine 05:30, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose Per above. *~Daniel~* ☎ 00:49, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose I'm not sure what the difference is but Vietnamese restaurants list Pho and Hu tieu(Vietnamese word for Kuyteav) as different food in their menu.Pwordisony (talk) 21:23, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose Definitely No. Some outsiders seem to think that all rice noodles are variations of the same dish, but they are considered VERY distinct dishes to the Vietnamese, not mere variations of each other. Asking a Vietnamese the difference between two random rice noodle dishes like Phở and Bún Riêu is like asking an American the difference between hamburger and pizza. As I said above, "Variations of the same dish would be something like: Vietnamese chicken phở and beef phở, crab bún riêu and fish bún riêu. Even dishes whose names start with the same type of noodle like bún chả, bún thang, bún mộc, bún riêu, bún ốc, bún bò... are considered distinct dishes in Vietnam, not variations of each other, let alone something as different as Phở and Kuytew." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sunnyrain90 (talk • contribs) 09:52, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Unorthodox

What does The use of condiments such as chile sauce, hoisin sauce or basil leaves could be considered unorthodox among some consumers mean? Which consumers? (Ones preferring northern style Phở?) --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 00:42, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

That's possible! I think northerners stick to the original recipe which used scallions as the garnish, while southerners use more basil, cilantro, and a wider variety of other herbs. I don't know about the sauces, though. Badagnani 00:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I think my point is that the sentence doesn't really help the reader at all. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 03:22, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

It could certainly be reworded to make it clear the difference in garnishes between Hanoi- and Saigon-style pho. Why not give it a shot? Badagnani 05:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, the article already discusses the regional differences; I think I'll just remove the sentence. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Recipes

The person who added the external link to this recipe http://www.mediterrasian.com/delicious_recipes_pho_bo.htm ought to be drawn and quartered!!! Five spice powder in phở's?!!! Is nothing sacred?!

(But look at the ingredients of five spice powder: It consists of Chinese Tung Hing cinnamon (actually a type of cassia), powdered cassia buds, powdered star anise and anise seed, ginger root, and ground cloves. Another recipe for the powder consists of huajiao (Sichuan pepper), bajiao (star anise), rougui (cassia), cloves, and fennel seeds.

Pho does have star anise, cloves and cinnamon.

So I could totally imagine the early creation of pho containing "Five spice powder" and the recipe evolved from person to the next. Maybe lack of five spice powder in one's kitchen led to the changing of the recipe as people adapt to lack of ingredients.)

I searched for and added links to a few recipes that I consider the most accurate/conventional.

Generally, be suspicious of recipes that call for ready-made beef broth, that do not specify roasting/charring of the whole onions, and that do not specify that the beef bones be cleansed by being briefly boiled or soaked overnight.

Recipes included were:

• http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/recipe_views/views/233548: probably the best, IMO

• http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/recipe_views/views/232434: does not specify cinnamon stick in broth

• http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Beef-Pho/Detail.aspx: does not specify "cleansing" of beef bones

• http://chinesefood.about.com/od/soupandsaladrecipes/r/phobosoup.htm: does not call for cloves nor cinnamon in broth

Other recipes not included were:

• http://www.recipesource.com/ethnic/asia/vietnamese/pho2.html: calls for parsnip in the broth!

• http://www.soupsong.com/rpho.html: calls for fennel seeds in broth.

• http://www.recipezaar.com/92313: specifies roasting of beef & beef bones prior to making broth; calls for coriander seeds in broth.

• http://chinesefood.about.com/od/soupandsaladrecipes/r/phobosoup.htm: quite accurate, though does not calls for cloves nor cinnamon in broth
• http://chinesefood.about.com/od/soupandsaladrecipes/r/phobosoup.htm: quite accurate, though does not calls for cloves nor cinnamon in broth]: uses funky stuff like cardamom pods, fennel seeds, bay leaves, licorice root, and celery in the broth

• http://www.world-recipes.info/vietnam-vietnamese/pho_beef_noodle_soup.html: specifies frying of onion halves prior to use in broth; uses garlic in broth!

• http://www.foodandwine.com/recipes/spiced-beef-pho-with-sesame-chile-oil: calls for bay leaves in broth; calls for "sesame chili oil" as accompaniment

Andy Nguyen 18:02, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for these reviews; it's very helpful! Badagnani 18:04, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Inappropriate image

I move that we remove the picture of someone posing in front of a "noodle bar" sign. It is of little relevance to the content of this article. If needed, I can provide some pictures of phở restaurants in Little Saigon in Orange County that clearly say "phở" on their signs and not masquerading as some "noodle bar". DHN 06:29, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

• Sure, go right ahead, why not? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 07:15, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
• I think it is a fantastic image and should remain. However, the jokes about "What the pho?" should be removed (or stay removed).Zweifel 07:19, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Will look around for the what the pho nonsense; I've seen this in RS before but can't find it now. No harm in adding extra/better images however. F.F.McGurk 14:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I made this addition because "What the Pho" is the name of a number of real restaurants, including one in Bellevue, Washington [3] [4]. Zweifel then reverted it without comment. When I asked him about it he explained that his deletion may have had somewhat disingenuous motives. Accordingly, I will restore it with some cites. —Dgies^t c 16:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I also saw a What the Phở restaurant at Huntington Beach (right at the pier). These are clearly catering to non-Vietnamese audience. DHN 16:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

There's a "Phở King Restaurant" just down the street from my house. 99.66.154.81 (talk) 10:03, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Ingredients of Phở?

I think we should pay attention to ingredients of Phở.

- What kind of mint and corriander do the artical mention? What's difference from "corriander leaves" and "ngò gai"? I'm Vietnamese but I haven't eaten or cooked Phở with any kind of mints and rau om. There're only húng quế and ngò gai which're herbs in a Phở bowl and nothing else.

Where in Vietnam are you from, and in which parts of Vietnam have you eaten phở? Badagnani 17:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

- Is húng quế means really Thai basil in English? Or perhaps it's cinnamon basil? Or another?

- What should we translate some kinds of onion: hành lá, hành tím, hành tây?

- And "hosin sauce", it's really mean tương ớt or tương ngọt? And it really includes Thai Sriracha sauce in Phở? I think this information's wrong.

Good questions. Hoisin sauce (I don't know the Viet name) is a thick, brown, slightly sweet sauce. In the U.S. we get both hoisin sauce and Sriracha. Badagnani 17:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Plays on words

Regarding these restaurant names: "Phở Kim Long", "What the Phở?", and "Phở King", I think the second one is real and intentional but I'm not convinced of the first or third. What do other editors think? Badagnani 01:50, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the second is definitely real, the third might be real, or might be a coincidence (it'd be a coincidence if the restaurant is located on King St., otherwise I think it's intentional since King isn't a legitimate Vietnamese word). The third doesn't seem to be a play on word since Kim Long ("Golden Dragon") is a legitimate name. DHN 19:01, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree; I think the first and third are probably unintentional. But how can we be sure? Badagnani 19:12, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Chinese name

I saw on the internet:

Pho is a Chinese family name in Vietnam or of "Chinese background". (Don't know if Pho last name is connected with the noodle in soup dish- pho)

The name is Phó (傅; pinyin: Fù). The tone and vowel are different. I don't think it's a common name. Badagnani (talk) 05:34, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Why are the characters 檬粉 used to name phở in Chinese? (Question also asked at zh:Talk:檬粉.) Badagnani 19:54, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

檬粉(Méngfěn), MoongPho. --70.21.18.134 (talk) 04:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't make sense. Wiktionary doesn't give "mung bean" as a definition for the first character and the noodles are made from rice, not mung beans. Badagnani (talk) 06:09, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Removal of photo

The inclusion of a very prominent and humorously named North American phở restaurant chain sign (as discussed in the article) is good, and I don't think the deletion of it helps the article. Such restaurants may not be typical of Vietnam itself, but they are quite typical of diasporan Vietnamese restaurants in the United States, a nation which has a large number of Vietnamese (perhaps second only to Vietnam). Badagnani 20:02, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

While I have no strong objection to the photo itself (however, I have reservations about displaying such an atypical restaurant name in the article - most pho restaurants in the US don't have these kinds of names), I am removing it because of the photo's description page: the author is "some guy", source is "the Internet", and the license is "logo". Such a cavalier attitude towards copyright will likely get that image removed soon. DHN 20:20, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Garnishes in Hanoi pho

I've just heard that the most famous pho establishment in Hanoi serves pho with scallions, cilantro, and dill (and no other herbs). If this is correct, we should probably add dill to the article (which isn't mentioned right now). Badagnani (talk) 04:43, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Relationship with bak kut teh

The ingredients for bak kut teh seem similar to those used to make the broth for phở. Is there any relationship? Badagnani (talk) 00:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think they are related since bak kut teh is made by simmering meaty pork ribs while Pho is made by simmering beef (or chicken) bones with roasted ginger and other spices.(116.255.46.189 (talk) 13:48, 17 October 2009 (UTC))

"Traditional"

What does "traditional" mean as applied to foods?

Vietnamese cuisine is of course thousands of years old; at what point does something get the nomenclature "traditional"? Pho (according to the article) is only about 100 years old.

Seems to me the adjective is sufficiently vague to be unnecessary. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 05:49, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Gratuitous comment

This article is officially freakin' delicious. --Blehfu (talk) 18:03, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, but I have doubts about NPOV. So we can't put that in the article. Sadly. Lady Galaxy 19:22, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I also agree, I want a swimming pool full of pho.--67.168.160.239 (talk) 23:15, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

'Tai pin lu'

That's either a local name for the combination, or vandalism. Either way, I don't think it's accurate.

It might be "Tả Phí Lù". A popular Hoa people food in Saigon.--Amore Mio (talk) 06:40, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Do we need an article on tả phí lù? Badagnani (talk) 16:09, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we do. It's in fact a food that has a lot ingredients (there is no general ingredient): bones, meals, herbals, spicies ...^photophoto. Moreover, "tả phí lù" has became a Vietnamese language term which means "mixture of various/random/wierd/unexpected things".--Amore Mio (talk) 14:42, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

This food has a relationship with a Chinese food named "da bin lo".--Amore Mio (talk) 14:48, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Regional Variations

In LA it's always served with Thai basil.(ChocoCereal (talk) 04:32, 29 October 2008 (UTC))

Is this a regional trend for certain? I myself am Cantonese born and raised in Los Angeles, and I noticed we do eat it like that, but even my aunts serve it up with Thai basil (they're Canto born and raised in Saigon, along with their siblings). In any case, sources need to be provided. ★Dasani★ 06:06, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Pho have many regional trends. For example, pho in southern Vietnam is sweeter than northern Vietnam; while pho in Hue has a lot of chilii. BTW, can I use Vietnamese language source?--Amore Mio (talk) 14:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

difference

What's the difference between Hu tieu and Pho? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.224.50.37 (talk) 21:20, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, one is Cambodian, while the other is Vietnamese. The Cambos use pork. We use beef. ★Dasani★ 05:24, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Does Pho use fried garlic like in Hu tieu?68.123.239.78 (talk) 03:08, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Rarely.--Amore Mio (talk) 14:23, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

wrong, hu tieu is vietnamese, not cambodian. kuyteav is cambodian. both hu tieu and kuyteav were adapted from a chinese noodle dish however. and the difference between hu tieu and pho is that hu tieu is a pork based broth that has a less distinctive broth —Preceding unsigned comment added by Heabybroaid (talk • contribs) 08:36, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh, it is interesting. This is the first time I have ever heard that Hủ tiếu is a Vietnamese cuisine. Did you know that the most famous Hủ tiếu in Viet Nam is "Hủ tiếu Nam Vang" in which Nam Vang means Phnom Phen?--Amore Mio (talk) 12:35, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Original research bonanza

There is an egregious amount of original research within this article. Some of the more contentious information has been challenged and removed as dubious material. Other portions have been fact tagged for the time being; please everyone lets try to find and WP:CITE valid, trusted third party publications for the remainder of the material. Thank you, JBsupreme (talk) 20:31, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

It's going to take awhile for the Western articles to catch up on their knowledge of Eastern dishes so that we can link to their inaccurate articles.

Notwithstanding the nature of the disputed content, what really is “original” research in a non-Western subject? If something is common sense outside the English-speaking world but nothing has ever been written about it, does writing down common knowledge count as “original research”? Worse, if most current written sources are wrong and every local knows it, does correcting the wrong “sources” count as original “research”?—Gniw (Wing) (talk) 17:05, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

WP:OR is a policy to be applied to every article, no matter where the subject originated. --13² 17:11, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with JBsupreme. There is no reason for OR and the fact that the subject is a Vietnamese dish should not matter. There is not an absoulute dearth of sources on Vietnamese cuisine in the Anglophone world. There is a large Vietnamese diaspora, including in the English speaking world. The largest Vietnamese population outside of the country is in Southern California, and there are similarly large populations accross the U.S., Canada and Australia. There are plenty of English language cookbooks, newspaper articles and sources on the internet that deal with Pho, so save the excuses. I expanded the origins section, using sources, mostly newspaper articles. Mamalujo (talk) 17:33, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Common knowledge is generally immune from the need for citations. If there is a dispute over whether something is factual, that's another matter. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:56, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Since someone has tagged the article, sections, and specific statements, requesting sources to verify the information, it nullifies any common knowledge arguments. If someone feels a source needs to be found, a source needs to be found, not ignored as "common knowledge". --13² 18:30, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Many of the tags are unhelpful and border on the ridiculous. Maybe the tagger should spend some time looking for sources and adding content instead of inserting frivolous citation needed tags. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:57, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

True. This article is desperately in need of sources, especially considering the number of edits that continue to add unsourced or unverifiable material. Is anyone able to step up to the plate (or bowl, as it were)? A number of links to recipes are featured above—can any of these be used as sources for things like ingredients, garnish, etc.? --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 17:10, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I've added a few references (!!!!) for ingredients and types of phở. Not sure how good they are, but one's a cookbook at least, and seems to jive with what's already written. Will look for more, better sources later on. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 18:25, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Vietnamese pho with the rare meat and well done brisket

I think you guys should mention the fact that most of the flavor comes from MSG. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7367-2005Feb8_2.html

http://www.lovingpho.com/pho-ingredients-garnishes/vietnamese-pho-and-monosodium-glutamate-msg/

I even tried it myself without the MSG and it's absolutely true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.116.247 (talk) 15:53, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

True. Pho without MSG tastes very insipid. And if you add enough bones to get enough glutamates, it tastes very odd. But that's OK. Remember; MSG allergy is incompatible with human life! 124.149.65.55 (talk) 05:45, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Fish mint

I do not know why fish mint is listed here. Fish mint gives a little sour and slight bitter taste. However, it has never been used with phở or never been a substitute. Its taste totally does not match with phở. Neweco (talk) 14:58, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Dictionaries

The word "pho" is found without diacritics is various English-language dictionaries, including American Heritage, Oxford, and Collins. Usage in the running text should correspond to the title. I have removed these diacritics, aside from the one boldfaced example in the opening. Kauffner (talk) 12:58, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry but reverted. Not an improvement. Why should usage in running text correspond to title? In ictu oculi (talk) 13:47, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Now the dictionaries are wrong and you know best? Kauffner (talk) 13:51, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

That would be the previous editors. I didn't put the Vietnamese word in this article, I merely provided a couple of sources. It's nice that you've taken an interest in the article, and one or two of the sources you've just added can help improve it. But combined in a single edit that strips out the original contributors' use of the local term doesn't help.

Anyway, I repeat the question: Why should usage in running text correspond to title?

Cheers In ictu oculi (talk) 14:28, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Gee. I never thought about it that way. So when a title gets a diacritic, we can take the diacritic out of the text? Kauffner (talk)

Less sarcasm would be helpful. I see you have immediately done it again. I don't intend to edit war with you but I disagree and I don't think you are improving the article.

Anyway, you said above "Usage in the running text should correspond to the title." - I asked a question, twice. Can you please say why? In ictu oculi (talk) 15:53, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

"Spell a name consistently in the title and the text of an article," per MOS:FOREIGN. Kauffner (talk) 17:26, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved Mike Cline (talk) 08:33, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

---

Pho → Phở – (i) WP:MOS-inconsistent to have the most famous dish in category:Vietnamese cuisine anglicized when the others are left in familiar take-out menu format. (ii) The ö-sound in phở distinguishes from phố meaning "street". (iii) WP:COMMONNAME even since Phở is visually familiar in the West from restaurant nameboards Phở SHIZZLE, Ontario, What The Phở? franchise etc. (iv) WP:IRS recent Vietnamese cookery books on Amazon-LOOK use phở, Google Scholar sources like A. Greeley "Phở: The Vietnamese Addiction" in Gastronomica: The Journal of Food and Culture 2002. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:26, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

• Comment I'm on the edge on this one; while I understand the argument about consistency, pho seems to me to be an example of a term that has been sufficiently anglicized in the US as to merit entries in dictionaries, blog posts, newspaper articles, etc w/o diacritics, so in this case it feels to me like Saigon or Hanoi. Many other VN foods haven't reached this level yet, but pho, as one of VNs most popular exports, may qualify as anglicized. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:41, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

• I have to oppose based on my pedestrian knowledge and cursory research. The unadorned version of the word is much more frequently used by reputable English language sources, so far as I can tell. I did see some uses of "Phở" in more specialized publications (i.e., Thanh Nien and Phở: The Vietnamese Addiction), but even then, the word is often italicized, indicating the use of a "foreign" word. The fact that this word has been admitted to the OED (without diacritics) suggests that it has been domesticated in English. From all this, it seems to me that the least astonishing, most conventional, and therefore "correct" spelling of this word in English is "Pho", and moving the article would introduce error. Of course, we should have "Phở" in bold in the first sentence to inform English speakers of the Vietnamese spelling.

Sampling of sources that use "Pho" rather than "Phở"

• Oxford English Dictionary
• American Heritage Dictionary
• New York Times
• BBC
• The New Yorker
• Sydney Morning Herald
• National Public Radio
• National Geographic
• The Asian Pacific American Heritage: A Companion to Literature and Arts, Chapter 20
• Handbook of Food Science, Technology, And Engineering, Volume 4, Chapter 157 "Manufacture of Asian (Oriental) Noodles" --— Preceding unsigned comment added by Erudy (talk • contribs)

• [insert image and comment] —  AjaxSmack  02:11, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

File:Into The Vietnamese Kitchen p10.jpg

This snippet of Into the Vietnamese Kitchen by Andrea Nguyen clearly shows diacritic use on this topic in a relevant, quality, English source. —  AjaxSmack  02:11, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

• As WP:Article titles says, "Article titles are based on what reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject by." Given the sources above, which are pretty extensive, of a wide variety of types, and of quite high quality, the current name is correct. Consistency in naming is not a principal of either WP:MOS or WP:Article titles (except when talking about exactly the same thing). Qwyrxian (talk) 02:41, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose Qwyrxian's statements pretty much sum up what I was going to say, so no need to write it twice.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 04:07, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose, per Britannica. Restaurant menus give "phở". Reference works give "pho". Which category do we want to be in? Kauffner (talk) 13:02, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
• oppose per Qwyrxian and above. I think in this case, Pho has become sufficiently anglicized that it doesn't need diacritics anymore. I ate pho for a while in California before I realized (a) how to properly pronounce it and (b) how to properly spell it... I think in this case, the preponderance of sources outweighs the few sources that do spell it correctly. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:23, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi Obi-wan. Actually your comment on this made me check whether this has passed into English, and sure enough Google Books and Amazon LOOK find not just references to "beef pho" and "chicken pho" but also "beef pho (phở bò)" or "chicken pho (phở gà)". Evidently "chicken pho" is evidence that pho has in part passed (I wouldn't say has totally passed) into English as the phrase "sweet vermicelli" is no longer Italian. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:56, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Breakfast-only?

I heard somewhere that pho is primarily a breakfast food in Vietnam. Is there any credence to this statement? Illegitimate Barrister (talk) 20:06, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

EDIT: After some research, several reliable sources indeed say it is a breakfast food. Illegitimate Barrister (talk) 19:31, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Recent changes

Wiki articles normally have a "history" section, a discussion of the word's etymology, and a picture of the subject on top. I have reverted some recent edits by Jodibus that took all of this out of the article.[5] Other problem with these edits: "Pho" is not a proper noun and should not be capitalized when it appears in the middle of a sentence; The CNN list that was in the lead makes the article look like an ad for CNN; and it is redundant to repeat the title of the article in a subsection title. Kauffner (talk) 03:37, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

It's origin and it's ingredient

I read this article, and I do not see a lot of sources on its ingredients and I feel that it is not enough information that support several quotes that are posted on this article, especially on Pho's origin and ingredients. I suggest that the author should add more information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Panhle93 (talk • contribs) 21:35, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree, and the sources need to be reliable. --Ronz (talk) 21:11, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

After spending time searching for potential sources, I'm afraid I've found nothing that could obviously help:

• http://www.lovingpho.com/pho-opinion-editorial/history-and-evolution-of-vietnamese-pho/ probably is not a reliable source, but does have references and links worth investigating.
• Andrea Nguyen may have written more and more recently?

I'm finding nothing that is clearly scholarly in nature. I hope others have more time to look. --Ronz (talk) 21:30, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I was dismayed to see the French etymology stated as fact, so I rewrote the history section. Let me know if you see anything that needs further explanation or any leaps of logic. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 23:28, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Some notes on the recent additions

Some random notes:

• From material that was added recently, it seems clear that phở was shortened from nhục phở. I don't see much to support the Cantonese origin theory, but this is enough to debunk the pot-au-feu explanation. Yet the French etymology is the one given in all the dictionaries. No authoritative source says anything else. The Wikipedia way is that the heavywieght sources get top billing.
• If the word phở in the 1898 dictionary is unrelated, perhaps this sentence should be dropped.
• Tan Da's use of nhục phơ should be in the first section, together with the other early citations. We should cover what is actually known about the etymology before theorizing about French and Cantonese.
• The "etymology and origins" is now quite long-winded for a food article, especially the "From Cantonese" subsection. However, the lead section is still short. We could add a paragraph or two on etymology to the lead, and push the other stuff to the bottom or to footnotes.
• The character ⿰米頗 is part of Unicode's proposed Extension E. It's numbered 06234 in the proposal. The Nom Foundation's "Nôm Lookup Tool" gives you access to Vietnam's full Unicode set, including both existing and proposed Nom characters. There was some codesmanship to get as many characters as possible into Unicode. They went through forgotten manuscripts, as well as the dictionaries for ethnic minority languages. A character that still hasn't been encoded at this point is likely to be pretty obscure. The only character for phở given in Trần Văn Kiệm's dictionary is 頗. He gives the example Ăn tô phở (eat a bowl of pho), so this is clearly the right character for the soup. 普 can be romanized as either phơ or phổ, so it is not same as phở/頗.
• If 頗 is the correct character, the meaning is "one side". So nhục phở could mean "meat on one side." Kauffner (talk) 13:13, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback!

• Of the dictionaries cited by the various sources in the article, only translation dictionaries by Western authors give the French etymology, and only in passing. None of the Vietnamese-Vietnamese dictionaries do.
• The bit about nhục phơ would only make sense as part of the narrative given by proponents of the Cantonese theory. No one else acknowledges nhục phơ as part of the word's etymology.
• Many of the Vietnamese sources introduce their pieces by snarking about all the minutiae that's been trotted out in this debate. Everyone's grasping at straws because so little seems to have been recorded. Actually, if we can expand this section further, it'd be possible to split it off into a separate History of pho, similar to History of California bread and History of pizza.
• The difference between Nôm script and pure Hán text is that Nôm script often recycles characters for their pronunciations, disregarding their actual meanings. 頗 was used solely for its pronunciation (phả), not for the meaning "one side". Per the Nôm Lookup Tool, some writers used 𡂄 = ⿰口頗, which explicitly marks this phonetic borrowing (口 means mouth), while others used ⿰米頗, which disambiguates the character (米 means rice).
• Vương consults (but doesn't name) a Nôm dictionary to state that 普 was used for phở in bánh phở – again, borrowed for its pronunciation (phơ/phổ). Since Nôm was never standardized, it's entirely possible that some writers used 普 while others used 頗, 𡂄, or ⿰米頗. Or even that the same writer used all four, depending how much disambiguation was needed.

I mentioned 普 and ⿰米頗 because those are the characters Vương uses in his argument; he only mentions 頗 as a component of ⿰米頗. Nevertheless, your changes make the discussion on Nôm easier to follow while retaining the gist of Vương's argument, so it's fine by me.

 – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 09:11, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Vương's source for 普 is Nhật Dụng Thường Đàm, a Sino-Vietnamese-to-Nôm dictionary published around 1851. The entry in question reads (glosses provided by VNPF):

玉 酥 餅 (ngọc tô bính)

羅 𩛄 普 𤙭 (là bánh phở bò)

(rice noodle)

He's puzzled by this entry, because ngọc tô bính is actually some sort of pastry, as in 红豆玉酥餅 (sweet pastry filled with red bean paste) and 核桃酥 (cherry pastry). He wonders if phở in this case refers to dough rather than a noodle made from rice cake (either would be preceded by bánh). As Vương mentions earlier, Hue defines phở xào as "fried, filled fritters". So, oddly enough, 普 may be for another unrelated meaning of phở.

 – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 10:13, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• The pot-au-feu explanation is given by both Oxford and American Heritage. Those are standard reference works on the issue of word origins. A history of pho subarticle sounds like a good idea to me. I went to the Saigon library today and found the ⿰米頗 character in two dictionaries, one by Lê Quý Ngưu and the other by Vũ Văn Kính. Kính is a Unicode reference dictionary, so I am surprised this character wasn't encoded a long time ago. All the same, I think we should leave it out. The 頗/phở character is adequate for our purposes. IDS symbols may confuse readers and don't seem appropriate in a food article.
• Ngưu's is the most comprehensive Nom dictionary. He gives four phở characters just like the Nom Foundation does. But 普 isn't one of these characters. Ngưu's entry mentions ngưu nhục phấn, so it should be useful here -- although I am still working on the translation. Kauffner (talk) 16:51, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
• Ok, I have translated Ngưu now. He writes, "PHỞ [⿰米頗]...do tiếng Ngưu nhức phần 牛肉粉 đọc ríu lại mà thành." (Vol. 1, p. 1681). I translate this as "phở [⿰米頗]...is a contraction of Ngưu nhức phần 牛肉粉." Here is an image of the Cantonese dish. Kauffner (talk) 04:54, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to look up this information. I agree that OUP and AHD are good sources for etymologies in general, and it is necessary to cite them here in relation to pot-au-feu. Although we can plainly see that the French etymology is lacking, it is repeated by many Westerners and Vietnamese alike. On the other hand, our Vietnamese-language sources have the benefit of more recent (and rigorous) research, which is why I sought to give them more space. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 07:13, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

qn vs. vie

There a discussion about the template over at Template_talk:Infobox_Chinese#Vietnamese about the template descriptors. There are now five descriptors for Vietnamese, so we're trying to winnow out the ones that are less useful. "Vietnamese alphabet" is not a widely used or understood phrase, so IMO "Vietnamese" and "Vietnamese alphabet" are effectively redundant. If the sinogram form is identified as "Chữ Nôm", perhaps the alphabetic script should be qn/"Quốc ngữ". We don't want to imply that Chữ Nôm is not a form of Vietnamese. But I looked through the links, and there are very few articles that currently use the chunom/"Chữ Nôm" descriptor. Classifying names as Han or Nom can be ORish or arbitrary, a problem that may be avoided by using the hn/"Hán-Nôm" descriptor. Kauffner (talk) 15:38, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Diacritics

Meihuanghai changed all occurrences of "pho" in this article to "phở", but I undid most of those changes. "Pho", without the diacritics, is not merely a simplification in the absence of Unicode, as Meihuanghai claims, but rather a longstanding anglicization. Few Vietnamese food terms have been so thoroughly anglicized as pho. Many of the sources cited in this article make that point very clear. The Oxford English Dictionary's entry on "pho" has the etymology "< Vietnamese phở, perhaps < French feu", so the lack of diacritics is obviously intentional. This article is very consistent about using "pho" in English and "phở", italicized, in Vietnamese.

Additionally, the quote from Lettre de Hanoï à Roger Martin Du Gard (a French work) spells it "pho-ô", not "phở-ô-ô".

 – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 20:50, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Pilotless Pho?

I have to question the idea that the name "Pilotless Pho" from the Subsidy Period had anything to do with U.S. Drones. The United States planes from the Vietnam War period were very much piloted aircraft. There might have been a couple of experimental unmanned aircraft from that era, but all types of frontline U.S. Bombers, fighters, ground support, reconnaissance, observation, and cargo aircraft were piloted. The widespread development of U.S. drone aircraft did not occur until the early 21st century, well after the end of the 1975-1986 time period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.61.20.206 (talk • contribs) 20:19, 27 March 2014‎ (UTC)

66.61.20.206, see "History of unmanned aerial vehicles" for much more information. According to that article, the Air Force launched 3,435 remote-controlled Ryan Model 147 Lightning Bug drones over North Vietnam, China, and North Korea from 1964 to 1974. They were used for reconnaissance, not combat. This article also cites [6], which explains:

Anyone who arrives at this restaurant can enjoy a "pilotless pho" dish made famous during the time of war and destruction in the North. The name "pilotless" pho recalls that, at the time, the U.S. often used pilotless aerial vehicles to spy on northern Vietnam, but this "pilotless" pho is much simpler.

 – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 05:56, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Diacritics in lead

Regarding the recent edits by Douglas the Comeback Kid and WilliamThweatt: The use of diacritics for such a commonly loaned word as pho(ở) is hardly a settled matter. In my opinion, it makes sense to introduce them both as valid English spellings, as both forms appear in English literature. (My personal preference is for the diacritics, but I have easy access to a Vietnamese keyboard.) In the copious amounts of discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Vietnamese)/Archive 2, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Vietnam/Naming convention debate, and elsewhere, pho(ở) was pointed out as an example of a word that could remain unadorned even if the community decided to adopt Vietnamese diacritics in page titles and prose. So it would be a bigger deal to write "phở" exclusively or move the article back to "Phở" (where it was from 2005 to 2011), but merely starting the article with "Phở or pho" respects the unsettled debate accurately, I think. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 04:38, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Charred?

The article mentions "charred onion" and "charred ginger" as ingredients, which seems doubtful from my experience. Is this just a bad translation that ought to say "browned" or "sauteed"? Reify-tech (talk) 00:35, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

It is exactly what it means. The onions and gingers are roasted until slightly charred on coal before cooked in the soup. In no way the professional pho restaurants would brown or sautee onions and gingers, as opposed to Western soups, before cooking. 128.178.55.187 (talk) 13:58, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Should the pronunciation follow Standard Northern (Hanoi) dialect since the dish originates in the north? Or perhaps at least give both pronunciations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.207.146 (talk) 03:19, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Why on earth do we list pronunciations such as /fʌ/ and /fɒ/ when they violate English phonotactics? You can say /fɑː/ and /fɔː/ but not /fʌ/ nor /fɒ/, as /ʌ/ and /ɒ/ can't occur at the end of syllables (well, at least when they're stressed). Removing.

On second thought, the source that transcribes it as /fɒ/ means either /fɑː/ or /fɔː/. It's a difference in transcription. If you know which vowel it is, reinstate it with the correct transcription. Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:22, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

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Street food

Pho is not a street food. It’s always served in a restaurant or take away, never by a street vendor. 122.11.146.209 (talk) 23:55, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Shouldn't the Article title include the diacritics?

Phở is the name of the soup rather than "Pho". Paolorausch (talk) 16:33, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Not agreeing or disagreeing, but I'll point out that most articles in Category:Vietnamese cuisine use the Vietnamese characters in the title. I don't think the title should be italicized, though, and have made the edit accordingly. 162.208.168.92 (talk) 23:35, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Same as Ramen

I couldn't figure out what this pho was about, then someone told me it was just like Ramen. Makes sense now. That might need to be added to this article. 73.6.96.168 (talk) 06:06, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 April 2020 and 13 May 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Khang1102.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 06:34, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Vietnamese language is monosyllabic = Viet Nam

The language is monosyllabic. Every word is one syllable so Viet Nam is NOT Vietnam and Sai Gon is NOT Saigon and Ha Noi is NOT Hanoi. If you look at some of the other text shows Ho Chi Minh city as the way it should be written in Vietnamese. Following the conventions of the Vietnamese language being multiple syllables, then Hochiminh city would be written this way and it is not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.219.106.89 (talk) 01:04, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

It simply looks ugly because people have a notion of words. Ho Chi Minh is a personal name consisting of three names, Vietnam isn't because you don't think about South of the Viet every time you mention the country. You should follow other Asian languages and fix your alphabet. No one wants to hit space after every syllable. --2001:16B8:3197:F700:5917:3F64:DEE7:A7CF (talk) 17:11, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Northern vs southern pho

I honestly think this differentiation is outdated at least. Side garnishes are certainly served in northern Vietnam at least that was my experience. 2003:D2:FF03:72A3:E894:6882:F0B7:6770 (talk) 10:10, 23 March 2023 (UTC)