User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus/Archive 76
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- I'll handle them at the end. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:09, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
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Advice needed
Since you're an extremely experienced editor when it comes to GA, I'd like your informal advice on Samuel Dexter Lecompte. I recently expanded the article from a stub, and I'm wondering if it would be sufficient for me to nominate it for GA. I've never done this before, and so I need guidance here. 〜 Festucalex • talk 11:12, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Hrmm. This topic is well outside of my specialty, but one thing I wonder is whether the formulation in the lead - which mentions his views on slavery first - should be supplanted with a mention of his pro-slavery actions. Because currently there is more in the article about his actions than his views. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:00, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Good observation, I'll look into that. Thanks for your time. 〜 Festucalex • talk 15:56, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
TRAPPIST-1
 | Hello, Jo-Jo Eumerus. This is a courtesy notice that the copy edit you requested for TRAPPIST-1 at the Guild of Copy Editors requests page is now complete. All feedback welcome! Cheers, Baffle☿gab 04:46, 10 April 2023 (UTC) |
- Jo-jo, sorry, I think I'm going to bail on reviewing TRAPPIST-1. The problem is that there's nothing wrong with the material; to help improve it I have to read (parts of) the papers and understand them, in order to figure out how it can be rephrased without losing accuracy. It's extremely time consuming and although I'd love to see the article promoted to FA I don't want to put that much time into a single article. Best of luck with it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:53, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
- Sigh. Thanks for the offer, anyway. So I guess I'll need to ask @Sandbh and Gog the Mild: again to see if they think that the concerns they noted on the past FACses have been addressed. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:29, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
I should be able to help and there may possibly be a delay before I'm able to have a look again at the article. Sandbh (talk) 08:07, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
- Sandbh, ping me when you finish and I'll give it a copy edit, assuming that Jo-Jo is happy with that? Gog the Mild (talk) 17:39, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks! Yes, that would be OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:15, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
I had a look at the lede and section 1. I do not know what is going on but the standard of grammar appears to have deteriorated since I last saw the article at FAC. I have adjusted where possible. There are too many technically obtuse terms. I noticed some instances of things being said about Trappist-1 that it was not such as it is not a variable star. Why does this need to be said? To my non-astronomical mind it says nothing. Sandbh (talk) 07:18, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Such dwarf stars are often variable, and variability is a common trait in stars; I thought the mention was warranted for completeness sake.
- Regarding technical terms, here's where I have to ask a FAC-policy question (also @Gog the Mild, SandyGeorgia, and Mike Christie:) - when you have particular terms, is it better to link the explanation or to footnote it? In most cases, it can't be easily explained in-text w/o either oversimplifying or making it overlong. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:45, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- This discussion a couple of months ago captures my thoughts, which I summarize there as "if knowledgeable readers feel that the flow is being broken up too much by inline explanations, non-knowledgeable readers should accept that, and be willing to accept links instead, or, if absolutely necessary, an explanatory note". NebY gives an amusing example of what a baseball article would be like if we demanded explanations similar to those often requested for technical articles. It's a judgement call, because every reader has a sense of what's obscure, but I think putting in too much inline explanation and too many footnotes risks making an article unreadable for experts *and* non-experts. The example I gave in that discussion, Laplace transform, is a good one, because it's not esoteric, but to someone unfamiliar with that sort of mathematical tool the article will be completely incomprehensible. Trying to solve that with parenthetical explanations and footnotes would be a mistake. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:09, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- See, my thinking is that footnotes are a relatively reader-friendly way to explain stuff that can't be taken in a link.
I've added some to terms flagged by Sandbh, but don't take this as a definitive decision on how to explain them; I mostly put them in because removing a footnote (if we decide to do that) is easier than to readd one. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:18, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- See, my thinking is that footnotes are a relatively reader-friendly way to explain stuff that can't be taken in a link.
- This discussion a couple of months ago captures my thoughts, which I summarize there as "if knowledgeable readers feel that the flow is being broken up too much by inline explanations, non-knowledgeable readers should accept that, and be willing to accept links instead, or, if absolutely necessary, an explanatory note". NebY gives an amusing example of what a baseball article would be like if we demanded explanations similar to those often requested for technical articles. It's a judgement call, because every reader has a sense of what's obscure, but I think putting in too much inline explanation and too many footnotes risks making an article unreadable for experts *and* non-experts. The example I gave in that discussion, Laplace transform, is a good one, because it's not esoteric, but to someone unfamiliar with that sort of mathematical tool the article will be completely incomprehensible. Trying to solve that with parenthetical explanations and footnotes would be a mistake. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:09, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Sandbh, I've taken care of some of the notes you made. That said, I now have to ask if the grammar was better in this version, since it was substantially altered afterwards. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:13, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Hi, Jo-Jo; thanks for the ping.
- This page from NASA might be helpful in understanding some of our Wikipedia problems.
We demand that the lead simultaneously be a summary of the entire article and digestible to a layperson, yet doing both on a highly complex topic might not be achievable. Or, more simply stated, the lead might have to be dumbed down more than a level. The NASA page I offer has not a single term or sentence I don't understand and I don't need to go clicking elsewhere for readability. I often suspect our problem is a) the English, not the topic, and b) the result of trying to do too much in the lead, paradoxically, to (over)comply with LEAD. We most often find this in Wikipedia's math articles, where you can go to any math textbook and find a completely readable explanation of a given topic, but Wikipedia makes the leads so impenetrable in terms of the English that one is left with no idea what the thing actually is. I am still somewhat there with TRAPPIST-1. I don't believe the problem in such cases is the highly technical subject matter, rather instead, what the writer has chosen to include in the lead and how proficient the English/grammar is at doing that. Sometimes our knowledge of the technical gets in the way of our ability to cut through to what the average reader wants or needs to know, and they have to be able to read at least the lead.
The question is not whether to use wikilinks or footnotes; it should be instead how to write a lead that requires the reader to do neither (click out to another article or click to a footnote).
It is more important to my mind that the lead be digestible to anyone who clicks on the article than it is for it to completely summarize all points raised in the body (in particular, the highly technical points). We don't want the reader to give up and go elsewhere after the first paragraph. And then, how much we have to force a reader to click out varies depending on how deep we get in to the article body sections, and how likely someone not familiar with the topic is to read that section. Taking a medical example, I wouldn't worry about forcing a reader to click out in the Pathophysiology or Causes section as much as I would in Signs and symptoms, which any casual reader might be reading.
So, looking at TRAPPIST-1 with all that in mind, we still don't have a lead that is accessible to any reader. The lead itself needs two footnotes (and is still hard to understand), while I can understand everything at the NASA page above suggests we may be trying to cover too much in the lead, and that if we rethink what needs to be stated in the lead, we might find that it can be done without going all technical. Starting over might help -- forget about everything you know and making the lead a concise summary of that, and think instead of what the layreader, who knows nothing of the topic, will want to discover. They don't want to learn the entire field of astronomy in all of its technical glory; they only want a basic understanding, and the NASA page I gave you does that without ever confusing the reader. We are trying to do too much, and not succeeding at that means the reader will want to go elsewhere after reading only the lead.
On a sidenote, we have an expert on Wikipedia at dealing with exactly this sort of thing (it's what he does for a living), and yet he was chased off of FAC-- to our great loss. If I wanted this article to be brought to FA status, I'd be over at User talk:Tony1 on my knees, begging him to help in spite of past issues at FAC, because teaching you how and leading you through fixing this article is within his capability. (THere's a grammatical error in the second sentence by the way: With a mass is about 9% of the Sun's, it has a slightly larger radius than Jupiter ... )
. Good luck, Jo-Jo; I admire your tenacity. By the way, I would never risk asking the GOCE to copyedit an article of this nature; Mike Christie was wise to decline to do so for the reasoning he gave. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:00, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Jo-Jo Emereus: Re, "Such dwarf stars are often variable, and variability is a common trait in stars; I thought the mention was warranted for completeness sake."
- Yes, that works fine if you already know that such dwarf stars are often variable. But if you don't know, like me, then I could not work out the point of saying something that Trappist-1 was not. The context for the statement was missing IOW. --- Sandbh (talk) 00:18, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Hrmm, yeah, I see, that lead could be simplified a bit. I've done so at the moment. I see that the GOCE thing may have been a mistake, too. I'll see if Tony1 is interested. Sandbh, seems like the article does not say anything about variability anymore. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:20, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
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TRAPPIST-1
JJ I've completed my first copy edit sweep. Tomorrow afternoon my time I expect to be able to complete the second sweep. The article should be gtg (good to go) after that. --- Sandbh (talk) 07:12, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks in advance! Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:17, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Second sweep completed. I left some "eh?" 's or equivalent and some sources are now in red. Thereafter you should be gtg for FAC. There may still be some tiny blips which the FAC reviewers will pick up. A word of caution in that some reviewers may feel the article is still too technical for an FA article, which may be its undoing. I happen to disagree. Sandbh (talk) 04:05, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- Not forgetting to ping God the Mild who offered a ce when I finished! Sandbh (talk) 04:35, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- Already did so on their talk page. I've processed the remaining comments; I'll need to think more on some of the unused sources. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:53, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- Not forgetting to ping God the Mild who offered a ce when I finished! Sandbh (talk) 04:35, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
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In appreciation for all of the reviews
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Image reviews
Hey, I saw your second image reviews on this nomination and this one. Thank you so much for your work, the volume at which you are doing reviews is truly remarkable! I wanted to ask if there is something in my image reviews that requires improvement, since you're doing second ones after them. My own FAC currently requires a source review if you are interested. Regards.--NØ 08:31, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks! Did a source review there. Gonna warn folks however that I don't plan to keep up with this tempo for long - currently I am waiting for TRAPPIST-1 to get FAC-ready so I don't have much else to do, but when it is I'll probably be returning to my normal article writing. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:20, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
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Noted your reversion of Rarotonga hotspot
Sorry about using the not peer reviewed yet article as reference but I had believed it and contents of Wei, Xun; Zhang, Yan; Shi, Xue-Fa; Castillo, Paterno R; Xu, Yi-Gang; Yan, Quan-Shu; Liu, Ji-Hua (2022). "Co-Occurrence of HIMU and EM1 Components in a Single Magellan Seamount: Implications for the Formation of West Pacific Seamount Province". Journal of Petrology. 63 (4). doi:10.1093/petrology/egac022. which is peer reviewed and you are aware of, meet the criteria, perhaps not. Happy to wait till published however. ChaseKiwi (talk) 16:55, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, this one is published so we can use it. Although you should probably use the sfn template (Template:Sfn) if you need more than one page. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 18:07, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
Sourcing
Hello Jo-Jo, I'm curious if you have had any problems with using only one source per paragraph at FAC. The reason I ask is because I'm currently in the process of rewriting and expanding text for an article that I plan on bringing to FA. Some information is just not widely published so there may be several paragraphs with only one source. Thanks. Volcanoguy 23:31, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- No, I don't have any problems with one source per paragraph, although I still expect that the source backs the paragraph text. Also, unless you can easily find the required information with Ctrl+F, I'd be a bit bothered if the source is a hundred pages document with no indication of which pagenumber to search under. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:45, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- Okay, the source I'm using is a hundred pages document but Ctrl+F can be used to find the cited information. The article in question is gonna be one of the largest I've ever wrote so I'm gonna list it for peer review when I'm done with it. Volcanoguy 17:28, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- Out of curiosity, which article is it? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 18:35, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- The Mount Edziza volcanic complex but the text I'm working on is currently in my sandbox. Volcanoguy 20:19, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- Out of curiosity, which article is it? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 18:35, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- Okay, the source I'm using is a hundred pages document but Ctrl+F can be used to find the cited information. The article in question is gonna be one of the largest I've ever wrote so I'm gonna list it for peer review when I'm done with it. Volcanoguy 17:28, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
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Herzl Kabilio
@Jo-Jo Eumerus:, Can you please draftify my article you deleted without any warning, Herzl Kabilio, into Draft:Herzl Kabilio here I can improve the article? Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 16:12, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- It's now at User:Das osmnezz/Herzl Kabilio Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:15, 5 June 2023 (UTC)