Talk:Italy/Archive 7

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Turkish Sieges, rule over otranto, incursions across adriatic and italian islands, pope considering fleeing the vatican, turkish plans for invasion of rome not worthy of mention?

Apparently the Turkish landings, sieges, invasions, and threats on the Italian states are not worthy of mention but other countries are. I have dozens of sources to prove their significance and I feel that the respected editors of this page can agree that it is worthy of mention. Turkey made a significant presence during that time frame and has left its mark to this day, some towns revere the Turkish past and even have Turkish symbols dotted on their streets and homes, does austria or france have this? I will put in an edit with all my sources unless someone can find a legitimate reason not to include this significant part of Italian history, but not remove the austrian incursions and so on. thank you. Georgepodros (talk) 18:10, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

I don't question you have sources to prove those events ocurred, I say they don't deserve a mention in a summary history. As you surely know, the fact something may be true and can be proved through sources doesn't imply it automatically deserves inclusion. If you read through the articles that expand on that time period, the most important impact of the Ottoman Empire was indirect, as an enemy/ally of Italian marine republics, as a strategic ally of Italy invaders from Western Europe or through its increasing control of commercial routes. And that is discussed in the article, albeit with a limited scope. The Ottoman incursions failed to have a lasting impact in Italy proper, and they are more anecdotes than decisive events. As a comparison, the more relevant and convoluted Byzantine period is covered in a few sentences.

If you insist on putting Ottoman influence in Italy on par with that of Western Europe empires of the time, I recommend a request for comment. It isn't a light statement, and a clear consensus is needed for including something like that. Urbanoc (talk) 21:54, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 February 2019

At "Law and criminal justice" add:

The eighties and nineties are marked by the fight against the mafia, which despite important achievements of the institutions has cost the lives of numerous magistrates and men of the state, such as Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino.

with the image of the judges

END as it is present here: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italia Lorenzo dami (talk) 17:00, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done In the "Italian Republic" section, with sources. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 18:04, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Flag Icon

The flag icon Italy is showing incorrectly (as are France France and the US United States United States). This page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Country_data_Italy apparently contains the data used in the icon, but I can't see a problem with it. Halmyre (talk) 10:24, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino photo recently removed

why was the photo of Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino has been removed? please put it again, they were 2 Italian heroes and their contribution to the country for the negotiation mafia was very valuable, please. they must be remembered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zenorol (talk • contribs) 21:02, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Amnesia of Italian Fascist war crimes, citing tertiary academic sources

The academic sources explain the reasons why the Fascist (Italian) war criminals have not been persecuted after World War II, in contrast to the Nazi (German) ones, enabling historically revisionistic beliefs of Italians who see themselves as victims only of the post-war Yugoslav Partisans' revenge. Being completely amnestic of the fact that Italian troops first occupied Slovenia (from 1941-1943) sending 12% of the occupied province to Italian concentration camps, such as Rab concentration camp, where 3,500 internees died of famine (with a mortality rate of 18%, higher than the average mortality rate in the Nazi concentration camp of Buchenwald (15%) even)...
And Italian state provided absolutely no compensation (or acknowledgement of) to suffering Slovene civil population because "poor Italians" still see themselves as victims only and the Italian media has a nerve to publish Silvio Berlusconi's statement that Benito Mussolini merely "used to send people on vacation". Why? Because the Americans and the British at the beginning of the Cold War, saw in Pietro Badoglio a guarantor of an anti-communist post-war Italy., Yugoslavia, Greece and Ethiopia have, in vain, requested the extradition of some 1,200 Italian war criminals, who have never seen justice. Why? Because both the Americans and British feared (possible) Russian influence on Italy if PCI would have lost the Italian elections. DancingPhilosopher (talk) 10:13, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Hey DancingPhilosopher, I wonder if you could add to your arsenal of copy-paste additions to every article relating to Italy and WWII that you can come across some reference to the Austrian lagers run in WWI, in which were imprisoned the Italians of Istria and Dalmatia, or the many 19th century terrorist attacks against Italians in those areas by pan-Slavists and Croatian and Slovenia nationalists, or Emperor Franz Joseph II's order to Germanize or Slavicize (as geographically convenient) Italians remaining in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, or his order during WWI banning the use of Italian place names in Dalmatia, or maybe the total destruction of Zara which had one ship in the harbor and a "military presence" of a few dozen German officials, or... maybe anything that doesn't come straight out of the theories of Kersevan and Cernigoj, who, it's worth mentioning, insist themselves that they are not historians but a commentator and a publicist, respectively.

You insist that any mention of the Foibe must be qualified by a longer description of the horrors of fascist atrocities in Slovenia - are we also allowed to mention any of the repression of and atrocities committed against Latins in present-day Yugoslavia that went on for 150 years previously? Wannabe rockstar (talk) 13:00, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2019

I have more info on Italy that needs to be added Ryder123456 (talk) 19:07, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. aboideau^talk 19:29, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

add map to site

file:///home/ben/Desktop/Italy_400bC_en.svg.png — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.119.72.14 (talk) 15:26, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Length

Both the article and its lead are far too long. The lead has 7 paragraphs and nearly 1,000 words. This goes against MOS:LEADLENGTH. The level of detail in the history part of the lead is vastly excessive and needs to be cut. The whole article is 116kb of readable prose, greatly exceeding the recommended maximum at WP:TOOBIG. It's 18,500 words! Almost every section has a main article that it's supposed to be a summary of, so the solution isn't to split; the solution is to cut. EddieHugh (talk) 14:14, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

I've got it down to 111 kB (17,820 words) with ease. I suggest concentrating on major trims of the history sections to get the main text down to a manageable size. EddieHugh (talk) 14:49, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

And then pow! Someone restores a favourite list of lizards and salamanders, plus a useless list of volcanic provinces, and the size shoots back up again. Good luck all (and the reader)! EddieHugh (talk) 17:42, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 July 2019

Italy is done out ere 82.3.55.130 (talk) 13:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Danski454 (talk) 13:50, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 July 2019

For correct usage of "myriad" please change from "myriad of peoples" to "myriad peoples". Thank you! Jasperjackson (talk) 03:46, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

 Done –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 04:26, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Modification for the succession of the Italian States

I have some doubts about the kingdom of Italy not being indicated as the predecessor of the Republic.

I am referring to the "Preceded by" and "Succeeded by" sections at the bottom of most countries' summary banner.

At the bottom of the Kingdom of Italy summary banner, the Italian Republic is indicated as one of its successors, and the embedded link redirects to this page, however the opposite isn't true.

I would suggest two options:

Easy: add a "Preceded by" section at the end of this article, that includes the "Kingdom of Italy"

Hard: create a new article regarding the Italian Republic, cited as the successor of the kingdom, that refers to the current Italian regime, while this page remains to describe Italy as a country, regarding its history before and after the republic foundation. This is what has been done with France, which has a page regarding the country and a page regarding the current French Fifth Republic, the successor to the French Fourth Republic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.9.192.228 (talk) 15:55, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 September 2019

population estimate of italy in April 2019 is now 60,283,064 according to this source http://demo.istat.it/bilmens2019gen/index.html - currently on the page it's still using a 2017 estimate Megadabbist (talk) 16:01, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

 Done have used the number for 31 Dec 18/1 Jan 19: 60,359,546.--Goldsztajn (talk) 16:18, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 September 2019

I want to add the myths of the Creation of Rome WGiulio (talk) 13:11, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make. Please make a precise request. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 13:37, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Major historical mistakes in the lead

The lead has several huge mistakes in terms of historiography. It looks like bad popular history.

• The Italic peoples did not give Italy its name, it's the other way around. Various versions of the name " Italy " were used by Greeks, Etruscans and Oscans to identify different areas. The Romans merged these conceptions to define the current "Italia" as everything south of the Alps (See Origines of Cato the Elder).

• Secondly, there were no Italian city-states in the 15th ad 16th centuries. The city-states of Italy became Signorie in the 1300s, and transformed into Principati between the 1400s and 1500s. We are talking about regional states at this point. The idea that the Duchy of Milan was still the Commune of Milan is crazy. The socio-political structure was completely different.

• Another massive mistake...the Italian economy declined after 1600 (it is known as the "Crisi del 1600s") and not after the discoveries of Columbus. That's 100 years of difference. The idea that the Mediterranean declined immediatly after 1492 is a very old view rejected my modern historians. The Italian economy in the early modern period reached its peak and expanded between 1500 to 1600. Population went from 11 millions to 13 millions in the 16th century, and Venice doubled its commercial fleet between 1540 and 1570. Genoa rose financially. Rome returned to 100k inhabitans etc etc. This is the near-consensus view held among scholars today, notably proposed by the greatest historian of the Mediterranean in the 16th century: Braudel. No offense to the author quoted there, who btw is writing about the post-cold war era, but Braudel has won the argument decades ago.

• Finally, the chronology is also wrong in several aspects. It's not explained how the North passed from HRE to Habsburg-Lorraine and how the South passed from Spanish Habsburgs to Spanish Bourbons. And there is not a mention of the Catholic Reformation and Baroque period of the papacy and Italy, which lasted for a considerable amount of time.

I had corrected all of this stuff with the sources and re-arranged everything chronologically but it's been reverted because it was not concise and well-written.

The result is that now we have wrong informations in there. We need to solve this ASAP.

User: Deacon Vorbis, User: Danski454, User:Ritchie92...take a look at these four points I raised.

Edit: also what's up with the "Italy is in counted in southern Europe and sometimes in Western Europe". Italy is included in both South and Western Europe, it's not like one excludes the other. Barjimoa (talk) 10:34, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

@Barjimoa: Your edits were adding too much content to the lead section, and there is already been discussion about the fact that the lead section of this article is too long and detailed (see MOS:LEADLENGTH). You added loads of dates, treaties, edicts... without adding sources, and without a proper grammar and style in English. I would suggest: If you spot huge mistakes, just correct them one by one. Do not make the lead section longer than it is right now: unfortunately we must make a choice and exclude parts of the Italian history from the lead, like in this case the Baroque period. The lead is supposed to be a brief in a nutshell summary of what is "Italy", including a few ideas about its history, and right now it is already long and detailed enough. For the mistakes and details you are talking about, since it looks like you have more knowledge than I do, you could also check to the History section of the article, or the article History of Italy. --Ritchie92 (talk) 12:33, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

I did add three sources...but I agree with you that it's too long. I'll see what i can do. Barjimoa (talk) 14:34, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 November 2019

Change "These ones are relatively low figures among developed countries." to "These are relatively low rates among developed countries." to improve the grammar. Snarton (talk) 00:56, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

 Done, but that section has other, more serious problems too. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 01:33, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

The Anthem of Italy

Someone changed the anthem of Italy to ... lets just say its not pretty — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:EC:870E:3A00:964:30C4:2086:D622 (talk) 19:57, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

"Howdy partner" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Howdy partner. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hog Farm (talk) 19:21, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2020

Please update GDP (PPP) and GDP (Nominal) for 2020 Evero721 (talk) 09:15, 7 May 2020 (UTC) There is new data from imf. Please change: GDP (PPP) 2019 estimate• Total$2.443 trillion[4] • Per capita $40,470[4] GDP (nominal) 2019 estimate • Total $1.989 trillion[4] • Per capita $32,947[4] to: GDP (PPP) 2020 estimate • Total $2,504 trillion[4] • Per capita $41,582.[4] GDP (nominal) 2020 estimate • Total $2,013 trillion[4] • Per capita $33,431.[4] source: [1]

 Not done: The 2019 data is currently in use on the page because 2020 is not over yet. Therefore, the IMF estimates for 2020 are very rough. — Tartan357  ^(Talk) 10:25, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

2019 predictions for 2020 GDP are meaningless

Given what happened afterwards, invoking an old October 2019 estimate as a meaningful update for the 2020 GDP is a nonsense. Sapphorain (talk) 16:45, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Science and technology

Tesla invented radio, not Marconi (in 1943 the USA court proved this) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.38.242.213 (talk) 06:08, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Glad to see he has his fans, but, no. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 11:49, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Tesla did not invent anything close to a radio. The 1943 sentence stated that the original invention of the radio was by Marconi and that only successive developments of the same invention were attributed to others. Magnagr (talk) 06:19, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

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Wrong name for Trentino-Alto Adige in the table

As even used inside the article, the official name is "Trentino-Alto Adige" without sudtirol. It has to be fixed. The reference is the Italian Constitution Law, where region names are clearly listed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.30.200.163 (talk) 19:23, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

It is not. See the related article in the Constitution. --Ritchie92 (talk) 10:39, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 July 2020

gdp per capita nominal 28 Italy 33,190

gdp per capita ppp 27 Italy 44,197

World Bank (2019)

This is not an Estimated as it is currently posted, but an official data.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GNP.PCAP.CD?view=map 177.54.76.225 (talk) 08:41, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

 Note: The changes you propose do not seem to line up with the data the that is provided. Thanks, P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 18:03, 21 July 2020 (UTC).

taxes

Dear Sir: I have a friend in the Torino area..he did work in the area, he owes some taxes....can the company tax the taxes out of the income he is due? At this point he is not well, has no money and needs to get back to the US. Can you please give me some insight as to what can be done..it has been over a year. I await for you reply. I thank you in advance for your time. Stay safe.

Sincerely

Margaret — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C44:27F:E3AF:4D09:FC40:FC36:16AD (talk) 22:15, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

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Italian peninsula

Please read the following sentence: "In general discourse, "Italy" and "Italian peninsula" are often used as synonymous terms. However, the Po Valley may be excluded from the Italian peninsula. In this sense, the Italian peninsula includes only about 44% of Italy's total area. On the other hand, Sicily and other smaller islands off the peninsula may be geographically grouped along with it." And please don't mix geography with politics, like this: Mr. Bossi, leader of Lega, would be happy to know to have a number of converts abroad! --Deguef (talk) 13:28, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

My best regards, User:Franjklogos (talk) 15:55, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

communism in Romania 2021

Communisus or communism in Romania In Romania after 1944 with the extensive bombings made by Great Britain Romania have surrendered , at Yalta and possibly Teheran conferences, Winston Churchill have decided to annex Romania to the British Empire, for the petrol in Romania and the 4000 0000 ha of land .In 1944 possibly the international laws were such that one to pull something like this had to invent a party a secret service some small dictators etc an apparatus , with which to exploit the war benefits ,pray.S o Winston churchill put Stalin to put possibly Dr.Petru Groxa and others,King Mihai , to make ,build up, invent the Communist Party in Romania , in order to give a legal form to this annexation .So after 1944 in 45 and 46 until up to 55 this PCR party have won all elections at gun point, some at least 100 000 people were arrested and died in political prisons etc.So that the confiscation of these 9 000 000 ha , Romania, be made legal .With dictators like Ceausescu, see also Queen Elizabeth II and Ceausescus, or Ion Iliescu or etc. named presidents etc. 2021 . they have sized in this way control over political will, properties af all sort in Romania , from houses , lands small businesses, farms to petrol industry , agriculture , airports, army ,police, justice system. Example all food in Romania in Ceausescu time was exported , meat especially ,inhabitants of Bucharest had no access to meat , coffee, citric .After 1990 they have reconfirmed in Romania this system ,changing the name of PCR in PDR , having the same doctrine possibly by replacing C letter with D letter, as in Communist or Democrat .To this day in Bucharest more or less the population was replaced in some 70 years with the ones making thus the occupation since 1948.They are told the aristocracy time is past so this communist will is fired, and this exploitations made easier and as such legal . For example houses of Aristide Razu ,and of many others of the former aristocracy ,are confiscated since 1950and-2021, inside live these so called communists,in reality Great Britain conquest of Romania.--2003:CF:BF2E:CB7E:DC22:E4B6:F7E4:1C2C 15:43, 13. Mär. 2021 (CET)AristideRazu

Categories: or communism in Romania — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:CF:BF2E:CB7E:DC22:E4B6:F7E4:1C2C (talk) 15:00, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

1948, not 1946

The referendum was instituted in 1946 but Italy became a Republic only once the constitution took place in 1948. Egon20 (talk) 15:46, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

No, the republic was born on June 2, 1946. The first president, de Nicola, was elected in June 1946. It is true that the constitution came into force on 1 January 1948. Alex2006 (talk) 18:48, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Religion numbers

I just looked at the italian version of the Wikipedia page "Religioni in Italia" (the English version is "Religion in Italy"), a 2021 survey says that 50% are Christians and 20% are Atheists. Is there a need to change? Egon20 (talk) 08:37, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I think so, but it would be useful to preserve the previous historical data, maybe using a table with a row for each year in which such a survey was made. ade56facc (talk) 02:16, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree. 84% Christianity is completely unreliable, as that Eurobarometer survey is low-quality and based on a small sample. Catholicism has declined significantly over the last 10-15 years. The most recent Italian surveys have found between 50% and 65% Catholics on the total population.--37.162.62.192 (talk) 21:37, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Where are these sources? I'd like to see them. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 21:49, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

One has been linked above by Egon20. Another is Doxa 2019. --37.162.62.192 (talk) 22:12, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

References

It comes down to the question of whether these sources are reliable? - Therealscorp1an (talk) 22:18, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I think that those websites are properly reporting the results coming from those surveys but the fact is that those numbers cannot be considered reliable when referred to the totality of italian population, at most they can show a trend. In fact the first one (cited by www.termometropolitico.it) has been carried out on a sample of 1500 people whereas the second one has been carried out on a sample of 2142 people (around 0,0042% of italian population aged 15 or older) so here we are talking about nothingness. You must also consider that many people are not willing to answer to those surveys so this is another factor that lowers their reliability.

It is also true that the constant increase in arrivals of immigrants in Italy, the constant increase in deaths in the last 6 years and specially in the last 2 years (allegedly attributed to COVID pandemic) along with the forced seclusion of millions of people aimed to slow down COVID contagions and many other factors that have occured over the past 10-15 years, have certainly had a strong impact on statistics and many religion practitioners. ade56facc (talk) 15:33, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 February 2022

change Italian Republic to Republic of Italy Dizzinesism (talk) 12:31, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 16:58, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

The basis is missing

A major shortcoming of the article is that it completely lacks how Italy was geologically formed. Why does Italy look like Italy does, topographically? What does Italy consist of? How did the great mountain ranges come about? How old are they etc? Each land article should always have the geological basis for the country. It tells a lot about why the country has a certain natural geography and how it was eventually populated and why it developed in a certain direction socially, politically and economically. --Justeraren (talk) 14:13, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2022

I'm writing this request for changing the image of the Alfa Romeo 159 becauste now it has been replaced by the new Alfa Romeo Giulia. Thanks. 2001:B07:646B:C109:51A5:EE48:511D:6AC2 (talk) 08:50, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. You need to provide an image with an acceptable license, and better explain the change you'd like made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 09:09, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

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Length of the article

This article is really, really, really long. What should we do to make it shorter? CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 11:57, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Good question, CactiStaccingCrane! The long haul would be copy-editing for a succinct neutral encyclopaedic tone throughout, I think. Some possible quick fixes might the removal of some or all of the unsourced material, and elimination of WP:PUFFERY and hyperbole. I note that 'largest' appears 54 times, 'smallest' not once; 'best' 12 times, 'worst' not once; 'highest' 13 times, 'lowest' once; 'most' 113 times, 'least' twice. 'Leading' (17 occurrences), 'major' (36), 'important' (8) and the like could probably all be removed without loss. There's also duplicated content – the Po is described twice, for example. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:14, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Justlettersandnumbers Alright, this is trim time. Wish me luck :) CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 10:30, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Location

"a country located in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea" sounds like an island. could we word it better? PamD 05:38, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Official translation

Intervening in the talk page after the beginning of an edit war. The official name of Italy, in Italian, is Repubblica Italiana as in the title of the Italian Constitution. This name can immediately be translated as "Italian Republic" in English, and indeed this is a commonly used translation. However the official protocol of the United Nations uses "Republic of Italy" as the official English name, as shown in this list, after an explicit request by the Italian government done in 2003. I think there is nothing wrong in showing both English translations as official names of Italy in English, especially given that the second one is the one used by the UN. It is not as common as Italian Republic, but it does appear and is the official name, as stated in the text. Yakme (talk) 22:53, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

It seems like "Republic of Italy" is the name that the state is encouraging in the English language, but "Italian Republic" is so commonly used that it appears to be their de facto name in English -notably used by Italy's own government. The United Nations Terminology Database has a record (the related document is not available on the official website, but it is there in the link that you shared) of the state requesting its name be changed, however this is not reflected on the UN's list of member states or any other page that I could find on the UN's websites, except in the website archive links that you referenced.

I could only find three instance where the state's government used "Republic of Italy": one in Article 16 of the Presidency of the Republic's translation of their constitution, and two in the preamble of a translation by the Senate International Affairs Service. I couldn't find reference to any translation of their constitution as an official translation, only as "a translation" by the Italian Constitutional Court, or "(Translation by the Presidency of the Republic)" by the Presidency, and the Senate provides a link title with the document title but no description. All of these English translation are titled "Constitution of the Italian Republic".

I am very much in favour of using the name that a group asks others to call them, and initially I was totally on board with you! but when I saw that the state's government doesn't even use it in their own English translations, it felt like their effort to change the name is half-hearted :/

I think it would make the most sense to write "Italian Republic" with a note saying that "Republic of Italy" was requested to be used in English by the government but not followed by their own representatives. Unless there are high-quality sources where the government uses "Republic of Italy", it doesn't make sense to me for that title to be used as the norm. The article could also say "...commonly known as the Italian Republic, officially titled Republic of Italy...", but a note seems more appropriate to me. Floralcreek (talk) 23:07, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

I don't really see how anything can be more official than an official request filed by the Italian government to the United Nations. Of course you won't find many instances of the Italian government actually using it, because most documents produced by the Italian government are indeed written in Italian. But I think that the three cases mentioned above should suffice to say that the Italian government deems that denomination official (at least, one of the official ones). So definitely I think we should mention the official English name in the lead sentence, as is customary to mention the full official names for most countries on their WP articles. Yakme (talk) 23:59, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Top of the article version

Due to notices that the article needed to be shortened because it was too long, a cooperation between several users left this current version, which in my opinion is very good. So please, before anyone adds information to the article, especially in the history part, make sure you really know the history of the country, and not just part of it, otherwise your "update" will be considered "original research" what is prohibited here on wikipedia.

Thanks Gastrela 33 (talk) 14:42, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: CSCW

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 31 January 2023 and 11 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ilovecscw (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Ilovecscw (talk) 05:41, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2023

Remove the duplicate paragraph under the "Science and technology" section.

The paragraph to be removed:

Through the centuries, Italy has fostered the scientific community that produced many major discoveries in physics and other sciences. During the Renaissance Italian polymaths such as Leonardo da Vinci (1452–1519), Michelangelo (1475–1564) and Leon Battista Alberti (1404–1472) made contributions in a variety of fields, including biology, architecture, and engineering. Galileo Galilei (1564–1642), an astronomer, physicist, engineer, and polymath, played a major role in the Scientific Revolution. He is considered the "father" of observational astronomy,[320] modern physics,[321][322] the scientific method,[323] and modern science.[324] VeikkoL (talk) 07:45, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

 Done Denisarona (talk) 08:26, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Preview

The preview for this article is bugged and I don't know how to fix it. For me, it currently only shows the coordinated and the Flag of Italy. I have tried to fix it by moving around the Coord temp but was unsuccessful. ✶Mitch199811✶ 17:04, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Wrong map

The map in the Demographics -> Immigration part of the article contains a map where Russia includes illegally annexed areas of Ukraine. if Wikipedia pays respect to sovereignty of UN members, this image MUST BE DELETED. 193.161.14.114 (talk) 09:23, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

You are right, but I think the author of the map possesses divinatory powers, because the map's boundaries date back to 2007. Alex2006 (talk) 16:22, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

@Alessandro57 It's something wrong with dates anyway. It cannot be 2007 because of South Sudan on the map that was born only in 2011. Moreover, the image says this map is about 2021. But it still doesn't make sense. 88.155.110.94 (talk) 07:19, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

You are right, I think that there is some problem with the history in Commons! The map has been changed this year by an Italian user. I will contact him and ask to change the borders. Alex2006 (talk) 07:23, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Summarized Lead

The Lead needs to be summarized, my proposal is to keep the same core content and sources, removing only accessory information. Four paragraphs, the maximum accepted in Wikipedia for large articles:

"Italy (Italian: Italia [iˈtaːlja] ^ⓘ), officially the Italian Republic or the Republic of Italy, is a country in Southern and Western Europe. Located in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea, it consists of a peninsula delimited by the Alps and surrounded by several islands; its territory largely coincides with the homonymous geographical region. Italy shares land borders with France, Switzerland, Austria, Slovenia and the enclaved microstates of Vatican City and San Marino. It has a territorial exclave in Switzerland, Campione, and some islands in the African Plate. Italy covers an area of 301,230 km² (116,310 sq mi), with a population of about 60 million. It is the third-most populous member state of the European Union, the sixth-most populous country in Europe, and the tenth-largest country in the continent by land area. Italy's capital and largest city is Rome.

The territory was mainly inhabited by Italic peoples and the Etruscans, while due to its central geographic location in the Mediterranean, the country has also historically been home to myriad peoples and cultures, who immigrated to the peninsula throughout history. The Latins formed the Roman Kingdom in the 8th century BC, which eventually became a Republic and, by the first century BC, a Roman Empire, which consolidated as the dominant power in the Mediterranean Basin inaugurating the Pax Romana. During the Early Middle Ages, Italy endured the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the Barbarian Invasions, but by the 11th century, numerous city-states and maritime republics, mostly in the North, became prosperous through trade, commerce, and banking, laying the groundwork for modern capitalism. The Renaissance began in Florence and spread to the rest of Europe, bringing a renewed interest in humanism, science, exploration, and art. During the Middle Ages, Italian explorers helped to usher in the European Age of Discovery, however, centuries of rivalry and infighting between the Italian city-states, the conquest by European powers and the Italian Wars, left Italy politically fragmented. Italy's commercial and political power significantly waned with the decline of the Catholic Church and the increasing importance of trade routes that bypassed the Mediterranean.

By the mid-19th century, rising Italian nationalism, along with other social, economic, and military events, led to a period of revolutionary political upheaval. Italy was almost entirely unified in 1861 following a war of independence, establishing the Kingdom of Italy and acquired a short-lived colonial empire. From the late 19th century to the early 20th century, Northern Italy rapidly industrialised, while the south remained largely impoverished and excluded from industrialisation. Despite being one of the victorious allied powers in World War I, Italy entered a period of economic crisis and social turmoil, leading to the rise of the Italian fascist dictatorship in 1922. The participation of Italy in World War II on the Axis led to the Italian surrender to Allied powers and its occupation by Nazi Germany, followed by the rise of the Italian Resistance and the subsequent Italian Civil War and liberation of Italy. After the war, the country abolished its monarchy, established a democratic unitary parliamentary republic, and enjoyed a prolonged economic boom, becoming a major advanced economy.

Italy has the eighth-largest nominal GDP (third in the European Union) in the world, the ninth-largest national wealth and the third-largest central bank gold reserve. The country has been described as the "least of the great powers", and it has a significant role in regional and global economic, military, cultural, and diplomatic affairs. Italy is a founding and leading member of the European Union and a member of numerous international institutions, including the United Nations, NATO, the OECD, the G7, the Latin Union, the Schengen Area, and many more. The source of many inventions and discoveries, the country is considered a cultural superpower and has influenced and contributed to many diverse fields. It has the world's largest number of World Heritage Sites (58), and is the world's fifth-most visited country." Venezia Friulano (talk) 21:30, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

This is just a big no from me, I think my version above is the best solution. Yours keeps the long sentences while it removes key apects of Italian history (such as Italy being the homeland of the Latins/Romans, the source of an important diaspora, failing to mention the fact that it eventually switched sides during World War II) while adding other adjectives (like "short-lived" to describe the colonial empire) and keeping long sentences that that can be said with fewer words as I did above. Also, your edits are inconsistent, when it's about positive things like Roman empire or Renaissance you say it's not correct to use the word Italy, when it's about negative things like the place being fragmented or declining in the 17th century, then you are fine with the word Italy. Obviously, Rome and Florence are in Italy and this is a term that has been always used, so it's correct to use that term. I want to add it's incorrect to describe the Age of Discovery as part of the Middle Ages and the way that is phrased doesn't look good, but this is not your fault since it was there before your proposal. Btw, your edits on culture of Italy, removing as cultural movements Opera or Baroque and keeping in Fascism are also questionable choices. Barjimoa (talk) 03:31, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I'd write Nazi-Fascist and not simply Nazi Germany.Germany was widely helped by Fascists. 79.23.193.41 (talk) 10:17, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree to short but i follow your suggests too. Simplyred90 (talk) 16:30, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Ancient through medieval material definitively needs to be a single paragraph. 100%. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:02, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree with that. Venezia Friulano (talk) 09:22, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree but i'd avoid about Nazi Germany occupation that happened only by Fascists help.79.23.193.41 (talk) 08:53, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

All people are supporting.87.6.189.15 (talk) 14:17, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

<Nazi didn't occupy all Italy and they were helped by Fascists.79.23.193.41 (talk) 09:47, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree to short. Simplyred90 (talk) 15:43, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Intro

Answering to the call of bringing this to the talk page. Since there is general agreement that we need a shorter intro, I propose to replace the 2nd, 3rd and 4th parapraphs with the following:

Italy was the homeland of the ancient Romans and of many other Italic peoples, as well as a location where different peoples and cultures have migrated to throughout history. The Roman Kingdom, founded in the 8th century BC, eventually became the Roman Republic and, by the first century BC, the Roman Empire, which consolidated as the dominant power in the Mediterranean basin, inaugurating the Pax Romana. During the Early Middle Ages, Italy endured the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the Barbarian Invasions, but 

by the 11th century, numerous city-states and maritime republics, mostly in the North, became prosperous through trade, commerce, and banking, laying the groundwork for modern capitalism. The Renaissance began in Florence and spread to the rest of Europe, bringing a renewed interest in humanism, science, and art, while Italian explorers helped to usher in the European Age of Discovery. However, centuries of rivalry and wars between the Italian states as well as conquests and invasions by European powers left Italy politically fragmented.

By the mid-19th century, rising Italian nationalism, along with other social, economic, and military events, led to a period of revolutionary political upheaval. Italy was almost entirely unified in 1861 following a war of independence, establishing the Kingdom of Italy and acquired a colonial empire. From the late 19th century to the early 20th century, Northern Italy rapidly industrialised, while the south remained largely impoverished and excluded from industrialisation. From 1915 to 1918, Italy fought in World War I on the side of the Entente. In 1922, following a period of turmoil and the march on Rome, Italy became a fascist dictatorship. During World War II, Italy was first one of the Axis powers (1943-1945) and then a co-belligerent of the Allies (1943-1945). After the war, the country became a democratic republic via a referendum and enjoyed a prolonged economic boom, becoming a major advanced economy.

Tbf we may still remove some stuff and add instead other infos, (personally I think the Etruscans, Magna Graecia, and the Catholic Church/papal states deserve a mention) but for now let's start with this, which is less overblown and more workable than the current version. User:Alessandro57, User:LuigiPortaro29, User:Nick.mon, User:LukeWiller, you also edited this intro, so check this.Barjimoa (talk) 18:04, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

There are 3 major problems with your proposal:

1- Romans were a multi-ethnic group of people, in fact, being Roman meant having the Roman Citizenship, and this citizenship was granted in an increasingly less exclusive way to a multitude of different non-Italic peoples, so many Romans had many different backgrounds. So no, not for all the Romans the region of Italia was their origins or their homeland. Roman civilization was born in Lazio, in Italia, but that does not mean that all Romans, especially during Empire, had ethnic ties to Italy.

2- You have deleted this sourced content from the Lead without giving a reliable reasoning: "Italy's commercial and political power significantly waned during the 17th and 18th centuries with the decline of the Catholic Church and the increasing importance of trade routes that bypassed the Mediterranean"

3- You have watered down Italy's participation in the WWII with a generic, biased and incomplete description: you have eliminated that Fascist Italy lost to the Allies in the WWII, that Italy was occupied by the Nazis and liberated by the Italian resistance and the Allies. I think it is absolutely wrong to delete that from the Lead since its clearly relevant. Venezia Friulano (talk) 21:15, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

1-The Romans indeed became a multi-ethnic group, but their civilization still originated in Italy, cause Rome was and is in Italy. Hence Italy was their homeland, and I do not know how anyone can dispute that. The romans themselves said it. We have many sources calling Italy the homeland of the Romans. Other terms we can use are the current "native place", or "birthplace", "heartland", "centre of", the concept is the same, but I think homeland is the best word to convey it.

2-It's not that I want to remove sourced information, rather I'm responding to the request to shorten the intro and remove too detailed informations. Also, at least since Braudel, modern scolarship often denies that the Mediterranean declined due to other trade routes (but rather from an internal crisis).

3 I don't think anyone can infer from this summary that the fascists did not lose WWII. We can make it explicit. But we should also mention that Italy eventually became a co-belligerent of the Allies, the war did not end in 1943. For me we can surely keep the mention that Italy was liberated from nazi occupation by the resistance and allies, this is what the 1943-1945 period is about.

Barjimoa (talk) 00:13, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

1- It is much more acceptable and correct to say that Italy was the birthplace of Ancient Rome than to say that for all Romans, regardless of their origin, Italy is their homeland. No, not all the Romans (people with Roman Citizenship) saw Italy as their homeland no matter how much you insist.

2- You have deleted entire sourced material without justification. If you find different sources, instead of deleting, try to refine with the available sources next time.

3- You have erased that Fascist Italy lost to the Allies in WWII, its a serious mistake and an absolutely unjustified change. I'm not against saying that Italy (The Italian Resistance) was co-belligerent with the Allies during the Nazi occupation, but please bear some respect on the subject. Venezia Friulano (talk) 09:21, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

But Roman citizenship was an extention of the citizenship of Rome and Rome was in Italy, so i don't see how it is a wrong claim, Italy was legally the homeland/metropole/birthplace (the term is not that important, the substance of it is the same, i just think homeland sounds better and it's used by Romans themselves such as Virgil and Pliny the Elder) of the Roman empire as opposed to the provinces. And as I said, I have nothing against saying that the fascists lost WWII, i just thought it was an obvious thing. Barjimoa (talk) 11:13, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

In the year 212, Roman citizenship was automatically given to all free men in the Roman Empire, many of whom neither had connections with Italy nor considered it their homeland. It is very pretentious and false to say that all of them considered "Italy" their homeland.

Just say that Italy was the origin of Ancient Rome and let's move on. Period. Venezia Friulano (talk) 12:02, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Italy was called the homeland of the Romans in the sense that the Romans as a people originated there, not that every subject who was granted Roman citizenship had its roots there. Current article says "native place of", which I don't think sounds very well but it's the same thing, "birthplace of" is also the same thing. There are other possible variants. I'm not obsessed with the semantics of it, the substance is what matters. I was providing a starting text. Barjimoa (talk) 13:31, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Everyone has their homeland, a highly subjective concept per se, having Roman Citizenship did not imply that your homeland would become Italy (or Latium to be more exact). Italia, specifically Latium, is the origin of Ancient Rome, that's it, that's enough, let's not imply other things. Venezia Friulano (talk) 13:46, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

A short observation: I think that in the lead we should mention that Italy is the birthplace of the catholic church, with the Roman Empire one of the two universal institutions born in the peninsula. Alex2006 (talk) 16:13, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I concur with that.Barjimoa (talk) 17:23, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that the Roman Empire is a "universal institution", but I do think that mentioning that the Catholic Church was born in the Italic Peninsula would be correct for Lead. Venezia Friulano (talk) 17:42, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Not factually, of course, but as a concept ("Romanae spatium est urbis et orbis idem") . Exactly as the catholic church claimed to be the church of all the mankind. Alex2006 (talk) 05:00, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

what Virgil called the "Imperium sine fine", which can mean both "empire without a (spatial) end" and "empire without an end (in time)".Barjimoa (talk) 06:39, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm observing the talk that seems long. Simplyred90 (talk) 16:42, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Cuts in the led a bit exaggerated

Taking a look at the summary made by the last editors here, I notice a bit of exaggeration, Italy is undoubtedly a country with an immense history and culture, and this summary claiming that the led is too long summarized this story in a few sentences. Other articles from European countries like Spain have a led practically 3 times larger than this article, explaining the history of the country in detail (without any warning that the led is too big). Now this last removal of talking about the Roman empire out of the blue is just ridiculous. Pretounud (talk) 11:28, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

And another thing, users keep comparing the led of the Italy article with that of the United Kingdom, which, as I see it, does not mention anything about the history of that country, such as the importance of the Romans in those lands and the invasions of the Vikings, which were the two essential things to the formation of that country also makes no sense. As I said, other European countries (Spain and France) have leds much larger and much better explained than that of Italy currently.Pretounud (talk) 11:39, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

History is excessively covered in many country page leads. The lead is meant to summarize the article in a fair and balanced manner, but despite only being 1/4 of most country pages often become 1/2 of their leads. Bearing in mind that every country has a separate "History of X" where the detailed history is displayed, there really is not much need for detailed history in most country page leads - readers have come to the country page, not the history of the country page. The UK page quite sensibly dispenses with this and starts where the modern country can meaningfully construed to have its beginnings. Italy's modern period could reasonably be construed as beginning with its unification. All of the earlier, ancient history is hard to remove because it is emotive, but in reality it is undue and country pages leads are more to the point and more useful to the readers when they are more minimalist still on history. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:35, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I also agree with this, after all, Italy, as a country, was not the Roman Empire. Venezia Friulano (talk) 23:45, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, now exaggeration in the opposite direction.Barjimoa (talk) 15:06, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree Venezia Friulano (talk) 15:13, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree Denisarona (talk) 16:11, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I just gave a little better context to the Romans, who were previously quoted completely out of context in the led. And realizing that currently the point is to speak of Italy only as a unified nation, I also mentioned the first time that this happened (and the only one before 1860). I also removed the claims about the territory of the Romans in the Mediterranean, since it was incomplete information, their rule went far beyond the mediterranean basin. As I mentioned, the article is being edited (according to the current editors) because it is only to cite facts about the Italian peninsula as a unified entity.Pretounud (talk) 16:37, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

As we can see on here, everyone agrees with my point of view. The user who started these information cuts is closer to vandalizing the article than fixing anything.Pretounud (talk) 17:57, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Now blocked for vandalism.Barjimoa (talk) 05:00, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Causes of missing unification in the lead

The failure to create an Italian nation-state in parallel with other Italian nation states (England, France, Spain...) is one of the most important factors (if not the most important) in post-Roman Italian national history. So explaining the causes in the lead is not an unnecessary detail. The italian intelligentsia began to deal with this problem with Machiavelli and Guicciardini, and it continues to this day. Since the causes do not belong to a specific period, but have remained the same for centuries, and because of their intrinsic importance, it is important to mention them in the lead. I am open to discussing where to put them in the lead, and having them in the unification section is a very good idea. Alex2006 (talk) 09:17, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for raising this discussion thread. I don't entirely understand the framing of the proposed changes, which seems to carry the underlying presumption that an entity encompassing "Italy" somehow should exist (like some sort of natural state), and that the absence of unification then somehow means that this is being prevented. This specific language, more than anything else, seems artificial, and I cannot see any of other mention on the page of the "prevention of unification", nor specifically on the sourced you added (though that could be google translate). Iskandar323 (talk) 12:51, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

I want to say three things, becase I disagree with Alex on one thing but agree with him on two.

-the idea that Italy did not unify because of the Papal States is old scolarship; (it comes from a wrong 19th century interpretation of a passage in Machiavelli and has been criticised by Gramsci and ever since). In fact the Papacy was the leading Italian force until the rise of Piedmont, if not until the failure of the neo-guelph movement. Popes like Julius II or Gregory XIII or many others would have unified Italy (that is to say, annex all the others) had they had the material strength to do it (the Popes were the greatest power of Italy in terms of soft power, but in the terms of hard power they were on par with the other Italian states). This is valid for everyone, Papacy, Venice etc. It's not so much about nationalism, it's about why no one conquered the others like Castile did in Spain or Paris did in France.

-Scolarship now generally stresses that the reason Italy did not unify is simply because there was a balance of power between the various states and no one could absorb all the others (that is, until Piedmont). In this, Alex2006 is right to me.

-In a previous comment Alex2006 mentioned that the fact that the Catholic Church/Papal States were based in Italy deserve a mention intro as much as the ancient roman empire. I totally agree with him on that (just not on that particular way to introduce their presence).Barjimoa (talk) 14:23, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Answer to Iskandar: what does 'predestination for (re)unification' mean in this case? Clearly the historical necessity does not exist, but the starting conditions were there, and were certainly much more favorable than in the case of states such as France.

• First of all the peninsula's geographical conformation, defended to the north by the alps, and surrounded by the sea on the other three sides.
• Secondly, Italy was the first region in Europe to be permanently unified politically, linguistically and culturally thanks to Rome.
• Thirdly, the population professed the same religion, Catholicism, and thanks to this the peninsula was almost immune to the heresies and the religious fights that spread to other parts of Europe in the Middle Ages.

Regarding the meaning of 'prevent', here it means 'impede'. The forces that prevented unification were:

• first the church (read about it what Dante and Machiavelli say about it), because it did not want to renounce its temporal power. Of course the church, if it had had the necessary strength, would have unified the peninsula, but the powerful states were others (Naples, Milan, Florence, Venice), so the popes were content to block their hegemonic attempts. Then we must not forget the harmful influence of the counter-reform and the inquisition, a real cancer for the Italian society of the modern age.
• secondly the balance of power among the Italian regional states, which prevented hegemonic attempts by one state by the coalition of the other ones;
• and then from the end of the 15th century the interventions in the peninsula of those national states (Spain, France, later the Empire/Austria) that after reaching unification began to pursue an European policy and saw Italy, economically and culturally rich but politically weak, as an easy prey.

I do not agree with your assertion that there were no attempts at unification before the 19th century: from Liutprand to the Hoenstaufen, from Gian Galeazzo Visconti to early 16th century Venice, there have always been attempts to gain hegemony over Italy (clearly we are not talking about unification on a 'national' basis as in the 19th century), but they have always been crushed, almost always thanks to the political efforts of the church. If you want to read something about this subject, you are spoilt for choice: I recommend you an essay by Ernesto Galli della Loggia: 'L'identità italiana'. (Il Mulino, Bologna, 1998), a book that is not long (190 pages), but dense with information and concepts. BTW, the points which I wrote above correspond almost one to one with the first chapters of the book. Alex2006 (talk) 15:07, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Again I agree with all your points, but (so sorry to stress this but as I said I agree with you on the rest) not the part on the Church and the supposedly "cancerous" influence on Italy, because that is a black legend abandoned by historiography; the Papacy actually wanted hegemony and prosperity in Italy just like every other Italian state (and just like every Italian state it did not want to be annexed by the others). The idea that the popes were actively working to disrupt Italian unification per se before the nationalist liberal movement is an anachronism of 19th century scolarship, at best of 18th century enlightenment. Italy being the seat of the papacy was actually a benefit to Italians until the late modern period. Or rather: when the Church arose Italy arose, when the Church declined Italy declined. Think of the Medieval communes rising against the German emperor and supported by the Popes, or of the crisis in which Italy fell during the Avignon period (with the chief Italians of the day, from Petrarch to Catherine of Siena asking the Pope to come back) or of the Renaissance and the Baroque movements, of Lepanto etc. etc. On all the other points I agree, it's just that specific point which is an anachronism for the Medieval and Early Modern history of Italy. Barjimoa (talk) 15:33, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree with all the comments and ideas mentioned here, so I think wanting to explain the reason for the lack of unification in detail here in the article, even more so in the lead, would become just assumptions, since in fact there were several factors that contributed to this , in particular that no Italian state would agree (having the power to do so) to be subjugated by another. So I think it's a very complex argument and very full of assumptions to want to be treated here in the article.Pretounud (talk) 16:05, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

All of this is interesting, but it also emphasizes how this is vastly too much information to include in the lead (as you note, it fills a whole book chapter). It needs to be remembered that this is the article about the modern country of Italy, not specifically its history; the long form page for Italian history content is History of Italy (this is forgotten extremely frequently on country pages, not just on this one). The pre-19th century material on this page is all preamble to the late modern history and all of the other information on the modern country. As an aside, I'm not sure which source says 'predestination', but whichever it is, it sounds rather far removed from modern scholarship, which does not usually speak in terms of fate and destiny. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:11, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Religion (2023)

Christianity: 61% No religion: 28% Prefer not to say: 2% Islam: 1% Other: 1%

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2023-05/Ipsos%20Global%20Advisor%20-%20Religion%202023%20Report%20-%2026%20countries.pdf p.5 93.45.229.98 (talk) 11:39, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Should stick with census data. The sample size is ridiculously low. Moxy- 11:52, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

What's the sample size of the current source (in the wikiarticle)? 93.45.229.98 (talk) 11:59, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

p.s. I am serious I cannot access the source used in the current wikipedia article. 93.45.229.98 (talk) 07:10, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Clarification request

@Locke Cole: it's fine to warn me on my discussion page (although you could have omitted mentioning the possibility of being banned, that wasn't nice of you at all), but you should, before adding a warning on my discussion page, at least try to explain (properly) why Italy has this template (which I removed) and the United States doesn't (it's undeniable that Italy's history and culture are more important and extensive than those of the U.S. (the U.S.A. has existed for not even 400 years...). JackkBrown (talk) 20:33, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

The US article is 12k words of readable prose; this article is nearly double that at 22k. This one would benefit much more significantly from condensing. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:37, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

@JackkBrown: I don't care about this article. I don't care about the tag you wanted to place on United States (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). What I do care about is you being disruptive and violating WP:POINT. You appear bound and determined to double down on that by pinging me to conversations I do not care about. If you want to keep being disruptive an administrator can help you along with finding other things to do with your time. Or you can use the talk page here, which I see you've finally done. As to the tag about being too long, you apparently have a number of other editors here who disagree with you. Obviously @Nikkimaria disagrees with you, but so do @Moxy and @Iskandar323 above in #Article too big. Adding the too-long tag to United States is both wrong (it's not too long) and WP:POINTy, and your reason for doing so is.. apparently, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. I don't give two shits about this article. I hope someone who does give a shit about this article can help you. —Locke Cole • t • c 03:17, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2023

The Roma community is one of the largest ethnic minorities in Italy. The country has a growing foreign population, amounting to more than 5.1 million registered inhabitants. This includes include Romanians 1,190,100, Albanians 440,500, Moroccans 416,500, Ukrainians 237,000, Chinese 290,700, Philippinos 167,900 and Indians 151,800. The largest linguistic minorities in Italy include Sardu-speakers 1 million, Tyrolese German-speakers 350,000, Albanians 70,000 – 100,000, Slovenes 60,000, Franco-Provençal-speakers 50,000 – 70,000, Occitans 20,000 – 40,000, Ladins 30,000, Catalans 15,000, Greek-speakers 12,000 and Croatians 3,000. Add this information to the demographics section.

Source: https://minorityrights.org/country/italy/ 103.164.138.55 (talk) 21:10, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Where in the demographics section should it be added? Should it be its own section? Should it fall under immigration? Should it be somewhere else?

--MtPenguinMonster (talk) 11:26, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. See also the response by MtPenguinMonster. -- Pinchme123 (talk) 03:55, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 September 2023

In the introductory section pertaining the history of Italy in WW2 there's a section which is not clear:

"During World War II, Italy was first part of the Axis until it surrendered to the Allied powers and was occupied by Nazi Germany with fascist collaboration (1940-1943) and then a co-belligerent of the Allies during the Italian resistance and the liberation of Italy (1943-1945)."

should be changed to:

"During World War II, Italy was first part of the Axis until it surrendered to the Allied powers in 1943 and as part of its territory was occupied by Nazi Germany with fascist collaboration it became a co-belligerent of the Allies during the Italian resistance and the liberation of Italy (1943-1945)."

In the original sentence it is not clear that (1940-1943) Italy was entirely fighting alongside with the Axis and (1943-1945) it was split in two parts: one fighting for the liberation of Italy and one occupied by Nazi Germany with fascist collaboration. 94.33.221.212 (talk) 13:35, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

 Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Page infested by socks of User:Venezia Friulano/ User:JamesOredan

How do we solve this? This is a permanently blocked user who has pushed his non-sense agenda for years with dozens and dozens of socks. Barjimoa (talk)

This guy wages edit war and while he does it he has the nerve to message me and say "haha you cant stop me". My God. Barjimoa (talk) 15:45, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I want to thank the administrators for their quick action. Barjimoa (talk) 16:34, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I have requested Extended confirmed protection for this article to avoid further nonsense from these sockpuppet accounts. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:38, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Intro

Italy is certainly not "Located in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea". It's is a peninsula which extends southward from continental Europe toward the center of the Mediterranean Sea. Willit63 (talk) 11:26, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 November 2023

Isn't the country's official name in English; the Italian Republic? If it HAS changed, I don't need to edit the page. Josh0108 (alt) (talk) 16:01, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Yes, the name has been changed in 2003. See the two sources cited in the lead section. Liu1126 (talk) 16:18, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

This is nonsense. The name has not changed and should be reverted. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 08:32, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Source "trust me"? Beshogur (talk) 21:41, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Here are a few (from the United Nations):

• Agreement between the Government of the Hellenic Republic and the Italian Republic on the Delimitation of their Respective Maritime Zones, 9 June 2020 (entry into force: 8 November 2021; registration #: 57024; registration date: 13 December 2021
• Communication from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation of the Italian Republic to the Embassy of the Republic of Malta in Rome dated 16 February 2023
• Communication from the Embassy of the Republic of Malta in Rome to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation of the Italian Republic dated 28 March 2023
• Communication from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation of the Italian Republic to the Embassy of the Republic of Malta in Rome dated 26 April 2023

109.180.140.175 (talk) 22:03, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Please change Republic of Italy to Italian Republic. 109.180.140.175 (talk) 20:19, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. looks like ongoing discussion above, deactivating template Cannolis (talk) 21:50, 11 November 2023 (UTC)