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Archive 175

Video games with the same title, branding, etc.

I've crossposted this from WP:HD at the suggestion of a respondant.

There are a lot of video games (particularly from the 90s and 2000s) where two video games exist with the same title, branding, cover art, and everything-- but with different developers, on different platforms. A notable example is Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Double Agent, a less notable one being Need for Speed: Undercover.

However, there doesn't seem to be a consensus on what should be done when these games are extremely different from one another. This happens most frequently with handheld games, where the versions across systems share practically nothing beyond top-level genre and theme. If a game exists on Game Boy Advance or Nintendo DS as well as home consoles, those two games likely have next to nothing in common.

I'd like to ask for guidance as to when a game should be separated into its own article, and when it should be included as a sub-section within a top-level article. While this may seem like it has a blanket answer, I do not believe it does, and I ask that you read my examples for my explanation of why. I'd appreciate rationale so I can apply these to future articles and edits. If I should not be separating these games into their own articles, I would like advice on how to better organize information about them in existing ones, as existing articles do this in many different ways and almost always end up mixing the information in with the main article body, leaving it hard to research specifically these other versions.

Here are four examples:

Road Rash (Game Boy Color) came out in 2000 and uses the branding and theme of Road Rash (1994 video game) but the content is most similar to Road Rash II. The confusing part here is that it came out in 2000, shares a name with the 1994 game as well as Road Rash (1991 video game) but uses the content of neither. At present, the GBC version is described inline on the Road Rash II page, but little information is given and there is no reference to its relationship with the 1994 game. The 1994 game's article is already covering five other versions that share little with the GBC version, and I am concerned that introducing the GBC version into the mix would make for an overly long article that veers a bit off topic, while creating a nightmare in the Reception section. I believe Road Rash (GBC, 2000) should have its own article.

Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed is a 2000 racing game for PlayStation and Windows. The PS1 and PC versions are wholly different videogames that share a concept and soundtrack but little else. There is also a 2004 Game Boy Advance game by the same name, which is a translation of the PC version to the handheld. It is currently only mentioned in the article's infobox. Because it shares many assets and its design with the main version, I believe these three versions of the game should share an article.

However, in stark contrast to Porsche Unleashed, later Need for Speed games exist across multiple handhelds with completely different developers. Need for Speed: ProStreet was available on home consoles as well as Nintendo DS and PlayStation Portable. The home console versions were developed by EA Black Box, while the DS and PSP games were each handed off to separate B-Teams that made completely different games. I am torn on whether these justify their own articles, but they do not make sense structurally within the existing article. The barrier is that there isn't a whole lot of acceptably sourceable information about each of these ports outside of reviews.

Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear is a multiplatform tactical shooter. There are significant differences between the PlayStation version and the others, but they are minor enough for WIkipedia's purposes that the PS1 version can coexist with the Dreamcast, PC and Mac ones. However, there is also a Game Boy Advance port. It is not mentioned in the body of the article at all and is a top-down game with wholly different content. It is a completely different game from the others, and I feel it warrants its own article. Similar conundrums exist for the Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell games on GBA, which are side-scrolling action games. But again, I fear I would struggle to find enough information about them without dipping into WP:OR

Please let me know how I should proceed. I am going to begin working on a draft of the Game Boy Color version of Road Rash. Kaceydotme (talk) 04:29, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I think you are correct. If there are similarities or a lot of asset sharing with other versions, they should still be in the same article. But if they are wholly different games in every way, like Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (Game Boy Advance video game), they should absolutely have different pages. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:09, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

This is the first example I’ve found where the pages are separated, thanks! Kaceydotme (talk) 07:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

A few other separated ones: Over the Hedge (video game) and Over the Hedge (Nintendo DS video game). The Incredible Hulk (2008 video game) and The Incredible Hulk (Nintendo DS video game). TarkusAB^talk/contrib 15:33, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

A key factor to consider for a separate article is not just the vast differences in gameplay but whether there is significant reception and development information to estaish separate notability if the tile. The examples given all appear to be cases of a "lesser" platform compared to the main ones it was released for, and I suspect reviews for those cases will be few, making the argument for a separate article weak. — Masem (t) 16:09, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

It should be done on a case-by-case basis. If the games are substantially different, third party reliable sources cover the differences, and there's a lot to say on it, that's a good case for a separate article. If not, then probably don't split. Sergecross73 msg me 16:34, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

As others have said, the first consideration should be whether each version is independently notable enough to warrant a separate article. If not, then the other version should be mentioned in brief in a section of the main article, regardless of how similar or different they are. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:37, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

"Downloadable Content" vs "Free Update"

Is there a general consensus here about full content updates being called DLC? For instance Shovel Knight, Hollow Knight and Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night all seem to use "Downloadable Content" for what is ultimately part of the game itself rather than a separate thing that one must actively download. The downloadable content seems to never mention this type of content being included in the term. Dead Cells on the other hand as a for instance more properly terms these as 'free content updates'. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 04:44, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia goes by the common term for such things and that seems to be "DLC". One example concerning the Hollow Knight DLC, which is technically an update. I think "free DLC" is the established common name for updates with a sizable amount of new content.

Technically the word is simply "downloadable content" which is vague enough to extend to any sort of post-release extra content. "Paid DLC" is therefore used to specify that it costs money. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:06, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think commonname really works as an argument here, as "free update" would be similarly common and natural, and less jargony to boot. I don't think it's cut-and-dry, but I also think both are fine and could perhaps even be used alongside eachother. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 07:52, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

It’s hard to distinguish in the modern era of live services with mandatory content updates. Personally, I’d draw the line at “can the game be fully played and enjoyed, including online features, without installing this?” If yes, DLC. If not, update. Kaceydotme (talk) 07:12, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Right but it's not really of an issue of with/without. If you buy and download Hollow Knight, today, you get all the so-called free DLC with no way to remove it (outside of Steam downpatching shenanigans). That's more what I'm getting at here. And one can fully play a game and enjoy a game without, for instance, a minor change to a boss's HP that happened in the first patch (just a random example, not a specific game) but then a new area in the middle of the game that's fully integrated into the gameworld gives a somewhat different experience. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 12:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

If it was a free update, available to all platforms, with no way to remove it for all versions of the game (thinking about console releases here) then I'm inclined to call it an update. Kaceydotme (talk) 20:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

MOS vagueness: review scores without boxes

Hey all, I'm having a discussion at Talk:Lucky Luna that I thought that I should escalate to the project for clarification. Basically, another editor (Zxcvbnm) added a review box to the article, but there's only one scored review for the game. I removed the box on those grounds, but they think that we should then have that review score in the prose. The relevant section of the MOS is WP:VG/REC, which starts off saying that scores should not be in prose, but then says that that's what the review box is for, and shortly thereafter affirms that the review box itself is optional. Which can be read as a contradiction.

So, my question is: is our intention that scores should only be in the review box, whether or not the article actually has one, or that it should be in the review box if that box exists, and can be placed in the prose if the box does not? --PresN 19:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that's a common sense solution. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:39, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

@Axem Titanium: Which one is? --PresN 16:29, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think review scores need mentioning in prose unless they're otherwise notable (like Grand Theft Auto V and Ghost of Tsushima being two of three western-developed games to get a perfect score from Famitsu). I don't think the reader's understanding of Pocket Gamer's Lucky Luna review is improved in any way by knowing the score. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 23:05, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it is. If the article says "Will Quick of Pocket Gamer [said] that it struck a "balance [...] between casual and engaging" we don't know if that is a positive part of an overall negative review, or representative of the review as a whole. A score makes it immediately obvious if a reviewer approved or disapproved of a game, as it is intended to do. I am in favor of giving the reader as much relevant information as possible, not removing it purely for aesthetic reasons. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 22:44, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Again, I don't think that knowing "if a reviewer approved or disapproved of a game" aids the reader's understanding; if that was the case, we'd have articles where {{Video game reviews}} was twice (or thrice) as long to include all relevant scores. There are several journalists mentioned in that section whose overall opinion isn't mentioned, so I don't think it's necessary with Pocket Gamer either—though, to be fair, the preceding sentence states they nominated it for Game of the Year and the following paragraph adds additional praise, so I think it's pretty clear what their opinion is regardless. I've not seen anyone mention aesthetics. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 23:19, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

My opinion, which aligns with what I think the MOS says, is that scores should never be in prose, because they just don't impart actually useful information to the reader. It's numbers jammed in the middle- knowing that PG gave it 4 stars doesn't really tell you what they liked about it. (They thought it was fun and pretty. It's not a deep review, or game.) In fact, it's the only scored review of the game, out of four reviews and a couple half review/look-at-this pieces, because a lot of outlets feel that the scores aren't helpful even within the context of the review.

In any case, my proposal is going to be to change the line in the MOS from "{{Video game reviews}} exists for such a purpose." to "These scores should be limited to the {{Video game reviews}} template, if present.", to remove ambiguity for what to do if there is no reviews box. --PresN 01:11, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion, the purpose of the box is to (A) save space in prose and (B) allow readers to quickly glance at a swath of scores to gather a consensus on the general reception. When there's only one or two scores, those purposes completely fall apart. You don't save much space, if any, and it doesn't give you a good assessment of reception because two reviews isn't enough to build any kind of consensus. So in this situation, absolutely no box. I've included scores in prose before, but I think that's a case-by-case editorial decision. If they had a lot of praise for the game, and maybe some minor complaints, saying they gave 4/5 stars isn't imparting any more information. However, if they scored it a perfect 5/5, or a 1/5, I think that would be interesting to share. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 01:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Help with a draft

Hi all. Video game writing is not exactly my wheelhouse, so I figured I would come here for help. (Which is not to say I don't play video games – just that I don't usually write about them.)

As a bit of background, I am a regular at WP:CFD, and as such a will sometimes help out at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Working/Manual (where discussion outcomes which cannot be handled by a bot are listed for processing). To tackle the longest-outstanding item on that list, I started "working" on Draft:List of video games with AI-versus-AI modes, which is set to replace Category:Video games with AI-versus-AI modes after Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 3#Category:Video games with AI-versus-AI modes ended with consensus to listify. (By "working", I really mean "started working but then quickly realized that I have no idea how to do this".)

Any help—from "here is how to go about doing this" or "I turned this into a FL while you weren't looking"—would be very much appreciated! Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 02:44, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Got to be honest, I don't think this is justifiable as a list. I could be wrong, but I really doubt you can find sourcing to get it to pass WP:NLIST: "a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources".

That said, if you can find multiple sources talking about the concept of AI-vs-AI modes in games, then you need to figure out what goes in each row/bullet point of the list. Right now you have the name; you need a reference to show that the game has an AI-vs-AI mode, and then what else? Probably release year, genre, and a notes field describing how it works in that game? --PresN 02:56, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Would be excellent to write prose about what an "AI-versus-AI" mode is and how players interact with it. But I agree that finding sources on this might be hard, especially now "AI" has such a big fad meaning. You can check the reliability of video games-specific sources here: WP:VG/RS. The search engine there is likely to come in use as well. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 08:48, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, both! I have dropped a line to the person who originally suggested listifying to see if they had sources in mind. (I admit I cannot find any which indicate this meets NLIST.) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 11:53, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

In a quick search I did find two possible helpful sources: Gamespot on Madden and Polygon mentioning it in Super Mega Baseball 3. The latter is good for a listing but not much else, the former is a very particular news story. It's not enough yet. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 12:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

GA/FA question

Okay. So, this is something that I saw raised by the editor Martin IIIa to explain edits to the page Deep Fear. Leaving aside my feelings on the subject, and wanting editors opinions, but do you think the GA/FA process "encourages editors to attach references to claims which they don't support"? I'm not saying they didn't have valid concerns about Deep Fear, just wanting some additional clarification in case we need to tighten up the review process. ProtoDrake (talk) 22:08, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Both GAN and FAC seem to at least identify if there are claims made that need sourcing or attribution if there is no nearby source, and there usually should be a spot heck if sources actually support claims. But before I would take an article to either, I would make sure the sourcing is as good as I think it should be such that any citation questions are quickly resolved dropping a reused online cite where needed. The processes should not be "find my sources for me" or an under sourced article, particularly at FAC (that should lead to an immediate quick fail) — Masem (t) 22:13, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Masem: That makes sense. The user's full post is on Deep Fear's talk page, so you can judge for yourself. --ProtoDrake (talk) 22:19, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

This seems to be more of an issue that should be taken up with the reviewer than the process itself. Verifying sources is a required step and if they were skipped over and given the honor system, that's a problem. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 23:07, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I feel like I'm in part responsible due to being the one who used those sources in the first place. Though I agree the reviewer should've picked up on that. --ProtoDrake (talk) 23:09, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Honor system makes sense if you have someone that has, say, 10 FAs under their belt with confirmed sourcing, and there's no indication of bad faith involved (like, someone racing FAs through to win a Wikicup). Eg, if it were someone like Ferret (for example), I'd trust that what sources are present are correctly being used, though would still spot check the more contentious statements. Masem (t) 19:01, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

At GA reviews, I have in the past asked a nominator to provide a longer excerpt/quote from a source that was unavailable to me. This can be a helpful balance when source accessibility is a problem. At WP:VG, we're lucky a large percentage of our typical sources are available for free online, but when sources aren't available we have to be critical and at least try to confirm unintuitive or surprising claims. This is one of the primary goals of the GA process. If verification of online sources fails and an article still passes as GA, then that's really sloppy... ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 07:26, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Writing gameplay sections for games with virtually identical gameplay

I'm working on the Fallout 3 article on my sandbox right now, and I've realized that while writing the gameplay section, I'm copying nearly entire paragraphs from the Fallout: New Vegas gameplay section. This is because Fallout 3 and New Vegas have virtually the exact same gameplay. New Vegas did make minor tweaks, so I can't directly copy entire paragraphs, but it's damn close. If you haven't played the two games, I cannot overstate how similar they are. So my question is, is it okay to basically just copy the gameplay section of New Vegas for Fallout 3? There's only so much I can talk about that hasn't already been stated in the New Vegas article. Famous Hobo (talk) 21:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@Famous Hobo: Sometimes it can't really be helped that two games in the same series have identical gameplay elements. A while back I encountered a similar scenario while sprucing up the early Mario Party gameplay sections a bit (see Mario Party 1, 2 and 3 for reference). I say as long as all info in those sections are properly cited, it shouldn't be the end of the world if two gameplay sections read in the same way. Cat's Tuxedo (talk) 21:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Since New Vegas builds on F3, leave a {{main}} on NV to point to G3's gameplay, provide a very high level of game mechanics, and then mention any significant new features if there are any. — Masem (t) 22:14, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

People who read New Vegas' article aren't necessarily going to go and read Fallout 3's. It's fine if they are extremely similar. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 23:29, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

If there are specific features that NV has that are discussed in development or reception that, despite being the same as F3, have different takes, then those could be expanded on where necessary. Remember that we are writing for the general, non-video game playing reader, so gameplay coverage is low-value material on our articles. Masem (t) 00:30, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I think the Gameplay section would be pretty important, since readers would want to know what the game is like. It would certainly be more important to the average reader than the Plot section. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

The general reader should not be considered someone that has played video games, but like we do on academic technical articles, we assume a reasonable familiarity with what video games are. We don't need to spell out what a FPS is on a page like Doom (beyond providing the blue link). But at the same time, we also don't write to the level of detail that a gamer will want to know, as sites would typically do for reviews. Masem (t) 19:03, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Even if they aren't someone who plays video games, they would probably want to know what you do in the video game. They probably care more about that than the plot or how it was made. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:36, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

As long as you use sources related to Fallout 3 when writing that section, I think it's fine to have very similar information between articles. I say this because I've seen some articles do something like "X game is very similar to Y", then all sources on X's gameplay are about Y instead. I don't think this would appropriate and potentially enters WP:OR territory. Skyshiftertalk 00:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

It is very very rare to not see sources make comparison in gameplay to a previous game on the sequel or additional installment assuming the new game is sufficiently notable. I do agree that without sources that say "Y is similar to X" then yes, it can be OR to make that claim. But this definitely is not the case for F3 and F:NV. Masem (t) 01:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

If you do copy several sentences from Wiki article to another you should in your edit summary 'Copied content from [[<page name>]]; see that page's history for attribution'. per WP:CWW.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 13:00, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Discussion over at

Template_talk:Video_game_reviews#Early_home_computers that might be of interest. CapnZapp (talk) 10:13, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Two platforms, same review

I have a review that was published on GamesRadar+ website and on PC Gamer UK. How should I present that information in the article?Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 22:53, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Syndicating reviews/articles used to be more common on the internet. A lot of Gamespy reviews got republished on 1UP, for example. If you can, try to figure out which one is the "original" publication and only use that one. Axem Titanium (talk) 06:30, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

You can, for posterity, note that the review was re-published by a different magazine on the talkpage. In my mind, this can suggest that it's considered a high-quality source. It can also serve as an additional archive of the source. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 08:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't really suggest a high-quality source in this particular case: It's simply a matter of both publications being owned by Future. -- ferret (talk) 12:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

If you have access to the print version, you can cite both by adding the URL to the "cite magazine" template. Or if you use "cite web", in the website field write something like "GamesRadar+ (originally published in PC Gamer UK). --Mika1h (talk) 11:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Two quick questions

I'm just wondering about two relatively minor issues concerning the introduction and infobox. 1) Should the first sentence in the intro include the initial year of release, as in "Kill death murder" is a 2024 video game..." I know that's how films are introduced but is there a standard for video games? 2) In the infobox, should the platform be listed as "Windows" or "Microsoft Windows"? Thanks. Bertaut (talk) 13:37, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

1) WP:VG/LEAD says that you should have e.g. "is a 2017 action-adventure game" in the first sentence, and I know some people really insist on it, though its not universal.

2) Typically just Windows. --PresN 14:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

That's great. Thanks. Bertaut (talk) 14:34, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

New Articles (May 13 to May 19)

Main page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/New article announcements

 A listing of all articles newly added to the Video Games Wikiproject (regardless of creation date). Generated by v3.20 of the RecentVGArticles script and posted by PresN. Bug reports and feature requests are appreciated. --PresN 00:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

• Articles deleted/removed: Cake Mania (series), Wally Scharold, Cassandra(Soul Calibur), Lord Geo Dampierre(Soulcalibur), San Andreas(state), The Truth(Character), Fortnite Chapter 5 Season 2: Myths and Mortals, Rail Sim Pro
• Drafts deleted/removed: Draft:Global Illumination, Draft:TPT, Draft:Mass Effect 5, Draft:Massachusetts Digital Games Institute, Draft:Afterplace, Draft:Flat Reality, Draft:Interedgames, Draft:Sony CD-i Intelligent Discman, Draft:Vagrient, Draft:GameMill Entertainment, Draft:Kellogg's Jungle, Draft:Kyedae, Draft:Grill on Wheels
• Articles redirected: Chocobo Land: A Game of Dice, Pata (esports), Omocat
• Categories deleted/removed: Video gaming in Bangladesh, Video gaming in Indonesia, Metaplace, Deck-building card games, Virtual avatars, Character songs
• New categories: Physics-based puzzle video games — QuantumFoam66, Starter Pokémon — Cukie Gherkin, Sandlot Games games — Waxworker, Dragon Quest IV characters — (Oinkers42), Final Fantasy (video game) — Kung Fu Man, Final Fantasy (video game) character redirects to lists — Kung Fu Man, Final Fantasy Type-0 character redirects to lists — Kung Fu Man, Homebrew software — CyberSkull (newly tagged - originally created 17 years ago), Killer Game games — Waxworker, Links (series) — Mika1h, Action horror video games — AHI-3000 (newly tagged - originally created 1 month ago), Dinosaur Polo Club games — Waxworker, Future Friends Games games — Waxworker, SFB Games games — Waxworker, Video games about vacationing — The Editor 155 (newly tagged - originally created 22 days ago)
• New templates: {{Abime}} — Matthias M.

May 13

• Galarian Corsola (edit talk links history) — Pokelego999 (was previously a redirect)
• Ph1Lza (edit talk links history) — Http iosue (previously a draft: accepted AfC submission)

May 14

• Characters of Final Fantasy V (edit talk links history) — Kung Fu Man (was previously a redirect)
• Ghosts (Pac-Man) (edit talk links history) — Grapesoda22 (was previously a redirect)
• Healie (edit talk links history) — Cukie Gherkin (previously a userpage: undrafted by original creator)
• Maya and Meena (edit talk links history) — Cukie Gherkin (previously a userpage: undrafted by original creator)
• Paul Ruskay (edit talk links history) — Cnadolski (newly tagged – originally created 17 years ago)
• Ragnar McRyan (edit talk links history) — Cukie Gherkin (previously a userpage: undrafted by original creator)

May 15

• Cait Sith (Final Fantasy) (edit talk links history) — Kung Fu Man (was previously a redirect)
• The Casting of Frank Stone (edit talk links history) — ZooBlazer (previously a draft: undrafted by original creator)
• Assassin's Creed Shadows (edit talk links history) — MonsieurX2019 (was previously a redirect)
• Fuecoco (edit talk links history) — Cukie Gherkin (was previously a redirect)
• ImperialHal (edit talk links history) — Soulbust
• Melinoë (Hades) (edit talk links history) — Cukie Gherkin (previously a userpage: undrafted by original creator)
• Reject (esports) (edit talk links history) — Soulbust
• The D Show (edit talk links history) — Timur9008

May 16

• Frog (Chrono Trigger) (edit talk links history) — Cukie Gherkin (was previously a redirect)
• Kevin (Trials of Mana) (edit talk links history) — Cukie Gherkin (was previously a redirect)

May 17

• Hero (Dragon Quest V) (edit talk links history) — Cukie Gherkin (previously a userpage: undrafted by original creator)
• Rennsport (edit talk links history) — Thesimguy
• Skibidi Toilet (edit talk links history) — 64.231.128.226 (newly tagged – originally created 11 months ago)
• The Oregon Trail (Pressman Toys series) (edit talk links history) — GeerBawks (newly tagged – originally created 7 years ago)

May 18

• Pit (Kid Icarus) (edit talk links history) — Kazama16 (was previously a redirect)
• Incursion (disambiguation) (edit talk links history) — Trailblazer101 (newly tagged – originally created 1 year ago)

May 19

• Nuclear Nick (edit talk links history) — Griggorio2
• Reignite (edit talk links history) — Soulbust

---

Before you sneer, cast your mind back to the nonsense you thought was funny when you were ten years old. I promise it was just as dumb. --PresN 00:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

• Not sure about you PresN, but mine was asdfmovie [1]. It's just a bit nonsensical. Panini! • 🥪 15:41, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

• Melinoë (Hades) seems awfully early and the reception section is based on pulling a couple lines out of reviews of the game while in early access. She might likely get an article later, but I'd wait until the game has its full release or more about the development comes out. --Masem (t) 00:54, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  I don't believe that to be the case, there are multiple articles in the reception section about Melinoe first and foremost. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 01:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

NPOV plot in Senua's Saga: Hellblade II

Has anyone played this game and can replace the badly written plot summary in the Wikipedia article? Or should elements of this oldid not have been removed? Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 04:34, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Done Darkwarriorblake (talk) 16:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Discussion of new format for List of Xbox 360 games

I started a discussion regarding a new format at Talk:List of Xbox 360 games (A–L), would like some feedback Famous Hobo (talk) 01:06, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Mildly warm take: We should MOS the entire concept of "platform lists" and make most, if not all of them, consistent in format. -- ferret (talk) 01:25, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I had suggested this some years ago and was shot down regarding standardization of tables like this. Masem (t) 02:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I strongly agree with this. No genres, limited release dates, etc. Trim this stuff down. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 21:25, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Sands of Destruction

So, this has been long gestating, but I've had an interest in improving the article for the Imageepoch Nintendo DS title Sands of Destruction. And having looked over it, there's an article for an associated anime that has just three references. In the research I've been doing, it appears Sands of Destruction is some kind of multimedia project across a game, anime and manga, but there isn't a whole lot of information on stuff outside the game. I'm tempted to merge the anime article into the game in the future since there doesn't seem to be much notability surrounding the anime. Opinions? ProtoDrake (talk) 22:28, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

@Sergecross73:, since they did recent work on the article and collected a number of sources. --ProtoDrake (talk) 22:45, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

@ProtoDrake:I don't see any issues merging the anime adaptation article into the game article. I say go for it! Roberth Martinez (talk) 23:50, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I would oppose merging it, as the anime has reviews in The Escapist and Anime News Network. It also appears in the Anime Encyclopedia, meaning it passes GNG as a standalone page. The article's lack of content appears to be strictly a surmountable problem. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 05:41, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

@Zxcvbnm: While it may pass GNG, there's barely any information about its development beyond a single paragraph, and from what I've gathered a lot of its story simply repeats the game. I wrote the question/request above knowing about the two reviews. And that's it, just two, plus little to no Japanese coverage. --ProtoDrake (talk) 08:10, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

You may want to check Dengeki before saying there's "barely any development information". I found this interview already, and this one, and there's a metric ton of articles to sort through on the anime and related franchise. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:12, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I was including those. It appears we've hit another Trauma Center impasse. --ProtoDrake (talk) 09:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see why a standalone article is needed if RS coverage is limited. It seems rather clearly that the anime is supplementary to the game. OceanHok (talk) 10:22, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to there being a merge, as it does seem like they are supplementary. It seems like a good comparison would be the fact that a lot of manga and anime are a single article because it is the most beneficial way to discuss them both. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 10:31, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

There's also the fact that at least one of the sources Zxcvbnm brought up seems to talk about the game as much or more than the anime, and both game and anime share a voice cast and theme song writers. They're deeply intertwined. --ProtoDrake (talk) 10:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

The anime has significant reception. It has development information in Japanese. The only argument left is that "one is based on the other", but I don't see people shouting from the rooftops that The Last of Us (TV series) should be merged. Things can be interlinked and exist independently of one another. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

@Zxcvbnm: Comparing Sands of Destruction anime and The Last of Us TV feels like apples and oranges in this instance, they're barely comparable. And you're missing the point: yes there's information, but not that much compared to something like Nier: Automata Ver1.1a. Having done searching, all the information could be (without verbiage and bloating) summarised into two paragraphs. Three, tops. --ProtoDrake (talk) 11:51, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Come on, don't make OSE arguments like that... Sergecross73 msg me 12:06, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

@Sergecross73: Was that directed to me or Zxcvbnm? If it was me, I apologise. --ProtoDrake (talk) 12:10, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to Zx with his Last of Us comparison. Sergecross73 msg me 12:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

@Zxcvbnm:All that information can be easily included in the game's main article without much issue. Worse would be having all that information being flat out removed. Roberth Martinez (talk) 12:56, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Fully support merging the anime article. It's been nothing but plot summary and basic release info since its inception. If I recall correctly, it was supposed to be a big multimedia project, but kind of fizzled out when the game had had mixed critical and commercial reception. It can always be spun back out if someone ever bothers to write a real article about it.

Separate from that, yes, a few years back, I was going to rewrite the game article. I found a bunch of sources and did some basic cleanup, but ultimately abandoned it - just got sidetracked and never returned to it. While I'm working on other projects right now, I can still help with little stuff some if it's being cleaned up. Sergecross73 msg me 12:13, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I think a good question is this: @Zxcvbnm: - if the anime article did stay separate, would you have an interest in improving it and bringing it to a higher standard than it's at now? - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 20:57, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Frankly, I think that's neither here nor there, that argument is basically a form of "nobody's working on it" complaint. As it states, "Content shouldn't be removed just because no one has improved it yet; that would prevent editors from improving it in the future." I may feel like improving it, I may not, but if it is merged, there wouldn't be an article there to fix and I almost certainly wouldn't bother out of concern it would just be merged again and the effort lost. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 21:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

But that's the thing, we're not proposing that the content be deleted, we're proposing that the content that is there works best as part of the video game article. As ProtoDrake pointed out, a lot of the sourcing for the anime is directly tied to the video game, making it a good fit for it. If there were size concerns, maybe splitting could be an option, but it seems better to have one strong article that covers the two deeply interconnected topics instead of one strong article and one weak article. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 21:25, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

The invocation of that essay is also erroneous. It's an argument to avoid that "no one is working on it," yes, but that's not my argument: my argument is that no one is working on it and that it would be better represented as part of a larger subject. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 21:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move of Ph1Lza

I have just opened an RM of whether Ph1Lza should be renamed to Philza. This is located at Talk:Ph1Lza#Requested_move_25_May_2024 so please respond there and not here. JuniperChill (talk) 21:46, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Adding to the Homeworld Series page a Homeworld Mobile link along with Build Materials Lists and other information.

The Homeworld Mobile gamers want a site they can find locations of Blueprints, costs, and prerequisites as well as lists of Ship/item material quantities used to build them. I've begun putting this together but it is very preliminary right now.

I do not know how to make the proper edits within Wikipedia and very much need help in this regard. 3xTr3m3Sn1p3r (talk) 04:22, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

This sort of information is not appropriate for inclusion on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a game guide. See: WP:NOTGAMEGUIDE. I am not familiar with the game or its community, so I do not know the best recommendation for other wikis, but perhaps you can check out the Homeworld Mobile Wiki or the Homeworld Wiki at Fandom. NOTGAMEGUIDE also suggests that Wikibooks might allow it, though I am not familiar with Wikibooks and its guidelines, so I cannot offer further advice there. Fan communities, such as those on Reddit, may also have a sense of what is a better venue to house this information. It cannot be housed on Wikipedia, however, because it is overly detailed information that is not necessary to handling the subject from an encyclopedic perspective, and it will be immediately removed if you attempt to add it to the articles. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 04:33, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much 😀 3xTr3m3Sn1p3r (talk) 23:11, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Solicitation for help on a split discussion

There is a stalled split discussion at Talk:War Thunder#Request to move the leak list into its own page. It started over 8 months ago and I still can't quite call it. More eyes would be beneficial in order to end the discussion. Thanks. HarryKernow (talk) 23:08, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Help request for Game Boy GAN

Hi, this is a request for help on the GAN for the Game Boy. A message on my talk page about the Vinland Saga brought home that my GA reviewing ability has taken a nosedive (the page will probably be heading for GAR). I think my life at present isn't...stable enough for me to do a proper job with GANs, or much else. Can someone else help me with this review, as it's a large article with a lot of issues. ProtoDrake (talk) 14:28, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

fwiw, there's a big difference from the review of Game Boy that you are currently doing and the one that was quick passed at Vinland Saga. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I would probably suggest failing the Game Boy article and pushing it to a Peer Review at this point given how major an article it is. There seems to be a lot of problems throughout, and more than a GAN can feasibly address it feels like.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 14:48, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Article links to Template:Table row counter

Around 69 video game articles have a note saying "This number is always up to date by this script."[2] Two articles use {{Games list counter}} which automatically adds the note and links itself instead of Template:Table row counter. It's odd to show and explain a template to readers like this, the link may fail in reusers, and "script" is misleading since it usually implies JavaScript running in the user's browser. {{Table row counter}} is used in 376 articles [3] but only linked in 70.[4] All are about video games except List of music festivals in the Netherlands. I see a point in telling readers and editors that it's always up to date but I suggest to just say "This number is automatically updated" with no link. Interested editors can easily find the used template in the wikitext. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:40, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Notability of indie video games that didn't get much secondary coverage?

I would like to contribute by making pages for a few independent role-playing games that didn't get a whole lot of coverage: Potato Flowers in Full Bloom, Helen's Mysterious Castle, and Crystal Project. I'm new to making new Wikipedia pages, and because these games did not get much coverage in the press, I'm concerned they may not meet the notability guidelines, even though I (subjectively) see them as representing interesting ideas in game design.

Does anybody have advice for me? I've created an initial draft for Potato Flowers in Full Bloom, if that helps to get the conversation started. Jhilgard (talk) 17:44, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Ultimately, if something doesn't meet notability guidelines, then it can't have an article. It is a hard line, unfortunately. That said, you may be able to find enough about these games- it really just takes a few articles that are specifically about the game to meet the guidelines, assuming that they're broad enough that you can actually write about the subject. A good tool is the WPVG custom google search, though it doesn't catch everything. I see that for Potato Flowers there's a paywalled RPS review and a PocketTactics review (not the best site, but we're getting somewhere), and NintendoLife has a short preview. That's pretty on the edge there in terms of content, even once added to what you already have, but if you dig through google you may be able to find enough. You can see what sites have been determined to be reliable or unreliable at Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources. Helen's Mysterious Castle and Crystal Project, unfortunately, seem to have gotten even less attention. --PresN 18:28, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I have learnt it from when I tried to make Draft:Sun Haven. I never knew such a popular farm sim game (which has 14,000 steam reviews) has little coverage in reliable sources. In fact, I could only really find one reliable source at PCGames N and that is only a short four paragraph early access review. I thought I could use sources not located at VG/S (If i am reading this correcly, sources outside VG/S are presumed to be unreliable). A similar situation with Draft:Gorilla Tag's 18,000 reviews. I have since gone ahead and took a pause from Sun Haven and creating new articles until had the opportunity to create/ Coffee Talk Episode 2 exactly one year after release, and even made it on its way to WP:DYK. I am no longer considering editing Sun Haven until the major 1.4 update is out or its on the switch for this reason. So I would not even start making your draft until you could locate at least three reliable sources.

Also, you should link to your draft at Draft:Potato Flowers in Full Bloom JuniperChill (talk) 19:19, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

"sources outside VG/S are presumed to be unreliable" - not quite; the sources listed at VG/S are just those that have had discussions about them. If a source isn't listed, it could still be reliable, but you'd have to justify it yourself if questioned. If it's a videogame-focused source, it probably isn't reliable if its not listed there, but that's because most reliable sources get brought up there sooner or later so that we have a written record to point to later to in later discussions/nominations. --PresN 19:56, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this is correct. Also, as WP:VG/S mentions, it mostly just documents video game-centric websites. There's tons of general interest publications - for example - the Washington Post - that would be considered usable even though its not listed. The list would be massive (and be redundant to WP:RSP if we included every reliable source.) Sergecross73 msg me 20:04, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Ah ok then. I was mostly correct. But I actually found just one proper review from TheGamer "News posts and original content after August 2020 are considered generally reliable." which means its safe but would still fail my criteria for notability as it needs three. There is currently a discussion on whether GameLuster is reliable on VG/s. JuniperChill (talk) 20:42, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I know some editors, myself included, have a running list of article ideas (and sources for writing them) kept in their WP:SANDBOX, and when they think they have enough coverage to meet the WP:GNG and avoid any WP:MERGEREASONs, they try to write up a WP:DRAFT and see if they have enough to warrant publishing an article. You can run drafts through WP:AFC for review, or share them hear and editors specifically into video games can give their thoughts.

My two cents: while the GNG only requires 2 third party reliable sources to cover a subject, usually WP:THREE or more present a stronger argument. I'd also recommend familiarizing yourself with WP:VG/S, as we've already gathered a rather huge selection of sources that are generally seen as usable or not-usable. Sergecross73 msg me 18:30, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Generally speaking the policy is that Wikipedia is not an advertising tool, even if you are a fan who wants to advertise the game because you think it deserves to be bigger. The game must already be "big", rather than counting on Wikipedia to popularize it. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 18:39, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

That's understandable, and I think that gets at the core of what I'm working through, here. I wonder if there might be more coverage in the Japanese web, but I don't read Japanese. Thanks. Jhilgard (talk) 19:42, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Remember that notability is a rebuttable presumption. You may be able to pull out three sources to illustrate notability for a standalone but if that leads to a short stubby article that has no possible expansion possibilities (a game developed 5+ years ago without further coverage outside a short window) it will probably be sent to deletion. On the other hand, 3 sources for a game released last month should be fine for some time. Masem (t) 16:38, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I do feel your pain Jhilgard, there's a lot of cool successful indie games out there that receive little/no reliable source coverage. Unfortunately if the coverage doesn't, exist there's not a whole lot we can do here on Wikipedia. For Crystal Project specifically (I'm a fan of that game myself) I researched it previously and concluded there wasn't enough coverage for an article. CurlyWi (talk) 20:28, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing your experience, CurlyWi. It's an interesting tension between "notable" in the Wikipedia sense and "notable" in the game design sense. I suppose we've each got a head start if ever there are enough secondary sources regarding these games. Jhilgard (talk) 22:06, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Pretty shocked Crystal Project isn't notable, honestly. It feels like exactly the type of game that's gotten just enough traction for an article here even if it's still somewhat on the less known side, if only for comparisons to other games. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 05:49, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

It's difficult to establish notability for games that are only released on a single platform. Once it's ported, it usually picks up a Switch review from Nintendo Life, a PlayStation review from Push Square, and a Windows review from PC Gamer or Rock Paper Shotgun (or maybe even both). One "cheat" is to check for reviews on IGN affiliates. IGN France, IGN Italy, and IGN Greece post reviews for European indie games a lot more often than the main English-language site. Eurogamer has affiliates in other languages, too, but it's harder to search them. Don't forget to check French, German, Italian, and Polish sources, especially if the game was developed in Europe. It helps if you know a few reliable sources to check other than the obvious ones, like PC Games and Jeuxvideo. For example, you might check Heise.de for a German game. Finally, you can check unreliable sources, such as TV Tropes or MobyGames, for information that may help you refine your searches. For example, people on the IMDb or whatever may keep mentioning a gameplay element that they really liked. If you include that gameplay element in your web searches, it may help refine your searches and make it easier to spot reviews that also mention it. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:12, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

This may explain why Sun Haven is not on Metacrtic yet. It is currently only on Windows platform. However, they (Pixel Sprout Studios - the developer and publisher) are on its way to release this onto the switch alongside the large update. I think I finally get one of the reasons why Sun Haven cannot make its way onto Wikipedia yet which (like I said earlier) I do not plan to create it until it makes it onto the Switch or the new update. JuniperChill (talk) 09:46, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't have much constructive advice to add, but I want to encourage you to cover some of these indie games. The project definitely needs it. And Metacritic can be a good place to look for games that might hit this threshold. It's something special when a small game can earn coverage in reliable sources. Shooterwalker (talk) 16:30, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

New Articles (May 27 to June 2)

Main page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/New article announcements

 A listing of all articles newly added to the Video Games Wikiproject (regardless of creation date). Generated by v3.20 of the RecentVGArticles script and posted by PresN. Bug reports and feature requests are appreciated. --PresN 22:47, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

• Articles deleted/removed: Word Up (video game), Lite-C, MIDItarHero, Domain-specific entertainment language
• Drafts deleted/removed: Draft:Carmen King, Draft:Cornucopia (video game), Draft:Love Birds (Video Game), Draft:Zula Global, Draft:List of video games featuring Wolverine, Draft:The Outer Worlds 2
• Articles redirected: Pit (Kid Icarus), Vicious Engine, Bethesda Game Studios Dallas, Jack Marston (Red Dead), Pac-Man (single), List of Atari, Inc. games (1993–present)
• Categories deleted/removed: Interactive movie video games by series, The Legend of Zelda (TV series), Characters designed by Toby Fox, ZeniMax Media stubs, Video games with AI-versus-AI modes
• Templates deleted/removed: {{New Blood Interactive}}
• New categories: Impact of events on the video game industry — XTheBedrockX (newly tagged - originally created 5 months ago), Microsoft Entertainment Pack — Universal Cereal Bus (newly tagged - originally created 15 years ago), Music video games by series — QuantumFoam66, Video games about the Battle of Stalingrad — Mika1h, Western (genre) games — Kanghuitari (newly tagged - originally created 5 years ago), Fallout (American TV series) — Gonnym (newly tagged - originally created 1 month ago), Innerloop Studios games — Waxworker, Valorant players — Pbrks (newly tagged - originally created 10 months ago), Japanese video game artists — Mika1h, Indie game characters — QuantumFoam66, Video game slang — QuantumFoam66, Video gamers — QuantumFoam66, Video games based on The New Batman Adventures — Gonnym (newly tagged - originally created 3 years ago), Video games set in the Italian Renaissance — Cat's Tuxedo (newly tagged - originally created 5 months ago), Virtual economies — Cydebot (newly tagged - originally created 10 years ago), Virtual economy — Marcocapelle (newly tagged - originally created 6 years ago), Choro Q video games — Mika1h, Darkstalkers character redirects to lists — Kung Fu Man
• New templates: {{Tactical-fps-videogame-stub}} — Jlwoodwa (newly tagged - originally created 6 months ago), {{Tactical-tps-videogame-stub}} — Jlwoodwa (newly tagged - originally created 6 months ago), {{Japan-videogame-stub}} — WikiMacaroons (newly tagged - originally created 4 years ago), {{2020 Call of Duty League standings}} — Pbrks (newly tagged - originally created 4 years ago), {{2021 Call of Duty League standings}} — MatthewHagueLang (newly tagged - originally created 3 years ago), {{2022 Call of Duty League standings}} — MatthewHagueLang (newly tagged - originally created 2 years ago), {{2023 Call of Duty League standings}} — MatthewHagueLang (newly tagged - originally created 1 year ago), {{2024 Call of Duty League standings}} — MatthewHagueLang (newly tagged - originally created 9 months ago), {{Asian Indoor and Martial Arts Games Esports}} — Sports2021 (newly tagged - originally created 2 years ago), {{Downlodable content}} — Tantamounts (newly tagged - originally created 5 years ago), {{Esports match}} — Pbrks (newly tagged - originally created 5 years ago), {{Esports national team roster footer}} — Pbrks (newly tagged - originally created 2 years ago), {{Esports roster multi}} — Pbrks (newly tagged - originally created 1 year ago), {{Overwatch collapsible box/map}} — McVahl (newly tagged - originally created 3 years ago), {{Mobile Legends: Bang Bang Mid Season Cup result}} — EdhyRa, {{Sensible Software}} — Mika1h

May 27

• Girls' Frontline: Neural Cloud (edit talk links history) — Villkomoses
• Kagirinaki Tatakai (edit talk links history) — Haitch2PointOh

May 28

• 2024 Esports World Cup – League of Legends (edit talk links history) — IntMaMis
• Evil Empire (company) (edit talk links history) — FlyingKangeroo (was previously a redirect)
• Penny Racers Party: Turbo Q Speedway (edit talk links history) — Mika1h

May 29

• Tarisland (edit talk links history) — Pek
• Amber Isle (edit talk links history) — Nall
• Gosu (edit talk links history) — 147.64.137.111 (newly tagged – originally created 20 years ago)
• Nintendo Museum (edit talk links history) — RetroGamer81 (newly tagged – originally created 2 months ago)
• Tencent Esports (edit talk links history) — MNJ555

May 30

• Homecoming Servers (edit talk links history) — SoggiestSoup
• Killer Klowns from Outer Space: The Game (edit talk links history) — Codyave
• Laniatus (edit talk links history) — Ideafabrik
• Suzuhito Yasuda (edit talk links history) — Akino005 (newly tagged – originally created 14 years ago)

May 31

• Sorceress (Dragon's Crown) (edit talk links history) — Kung Fu Man (was previously a redirect)
• Kuro Games (edit talk links history) — Venuesmathis (previously a draft: accepted AfC submission)
• Concord (video game) (edit talk links history) — Ryan York

June 1

• Arizona Sunshine 2 (edit talk links history) — OceanHok
• List of Splatoon live performances (edit talk links history) — Emiya Mulzomdao
• Piotr Michael (edit talk links history) — SpaceGeek756
• Stellar Agent (edit talk links history) — BOZ
• Synapse (video game) (edit talk links history) — OceanHok
• Zoria: Age of Shattering (edit talk links history) — Mika1h

June 2

• Missile (Ghost Trick) (edit talk links history) — Cukie Gherkin (was previously a redirect)
• 2024 Esports World Cup – Featuring Fortnite (edit talk links history) — IntMaMis
• Disney Emoji Blitz (edit talk links history) — SlySabre (previously a draft: accepted AfC submission)
• Hop (Pokémon) (edit talk links history) — Cukie Gherkin (was previously a redirect)

Gosu caught my attention from its 20 year tagging gap (the biggest I've seen), but it seems to be a pretty lackluster article on both information and sourcing. I haven't researched it because its late here, but pointing it out just in case. Panini! • 🥪 01:42, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Can I get a temperature check on some categories created by a new user? Specifically Category:Indie game characters and Category:Video gamers but I could use a 2nd opinion on many of the others too. Axem Titanium (talk) 06:43, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

"Video gamers" seems like it could stay, but I have marked it for speedy renaming. It should also probably only contain a more narrow set of categories such as esports players and Let's Players. Being a Youtuber about games does not imply you play games.

Not sure "indie game character" is defining, though, as being in an indie game has nothing to do with how a character is portrayed. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 07:00, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I'd say indie game characters could probably stay for the same reason we have stuff like Category:Microsoft characters. Categorizing characters by developer is common practice, so making one for indie devs makes sense. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:13, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

"Indie" isn't a specific developer though. It could be argued that the company the character is from IS defining because it determines who is allowed to use them. "Indie" is too vague to be defining, just like "AAA game characters" would also be too vague. In other words a Category:Video game characters by creator that is purely a container category might work, if there are enough categories to merit it.

Furthermore, should it not be Category:Microsoft Gaming characters? Microsoft refers to the entire company. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 14:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it even makes sense to group characters by the developer. Grouping characters by game and or series, obviously yes. Masem (t) 15:15, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I don’t know if it makes sense for Microsoft, but I definitely think some developers — like Nintendo — have interconnected and, for lack of a better word, iconic, casts of characters that make the common developer a defining categorization. DecafPotato (talk) 21:25, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

They should be in a category for characters of a franchise (or just the franchise/series itself), which should then have a category of "Developer franchises" or whatever. -- ferret (talk) 21:26, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Juhani (Star Wars)

Need Opinions for a clear consensus. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 04:35, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Heads up: Gamer Network acquired by IGN

IGN Entertainment has acquired Gamer Network from Reed Pop, and while no site yet has been labeled for discontinuation, there are layoffs happening across Gamer Network sites due to redundancies, like Brandon Sinclair at Games Industry.biz
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ign-buys-gamer-network-sites-layoffs-in-progress/1100-6523610/?ftag=CAD-01-10abi2f — Masem (t) 17:55, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

One of these days, every single source from some point in the future and onward will be all IGN. Panini! • 🥪 18:31, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Better IGN than Valnet, I guess... Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 18:56, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Ugh. I sometimes wonder what Wikipedia would even look like in that hypothetical future. What will people do? Will we devolve into writing articles like "You won't believe what Link wears on his feet! (Brown shoes found in a treasure chest!)"? Sergecross73 msg me 19:08, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I just think we won't write as much, frankly, if all we get outside of major press for games is a bunch of content churnalism. I don't think we'll just decide to loosen reliable source standards because the good sources are disappearing. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 19:33, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I was mostly kidding, though I do sometimes fear that, some day, if all that's left is churnalism junk, us experienced regulars are eventually going to be swarmed and overwhelmed by newbies who use the junk because there's simply nothing else. Sergecross73 msg me 20:32, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Magazines came and went in the 90s too. Laid off journalists will start their own publications. I'm not worried about coverage. czar 18:53, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I think in that case we just have to hope more Aftermaths spring up. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 19:22, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Aftermath was marked as inconclusive, at the reliable source discussion board. This seems like a mistake. Shooterwalker (talk) 16:14, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Axem Titanium (talk) 23:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I believe that was mostly due to the age of the publication, its had several more months now to assess. Masem (t) 00:04, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Combined with instant layoffs, of course. https://twitter.com/ethangach/status/1792945062151594281 IceWelder [✉] 19:28, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to feel about this whole thing. On one hand, IGN is still a decent source and I doubt much will change on the content side for at least a few years. On the other hand, they've closed other good sites before and if IGN's quality decreased even more, this would be bringing down some of our other best sources with them. At least right now we still have sites owned by Future and Vox, even if the latter have their own problems. λ NegativeMP1 20:11, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I like IGN quite a bit, especially because their coverage, like GameSpot, goes back a lot farther than a lot of other websites. And I don't think they're the type to go and turn good websites into churnalism/AI/Walkthrough type junk either. I just hate that it leads to layoffs, could lead to website shutting down, and that, if IGN/GamerNetwork ever falls, the number of websites lost is going to be brutal. Sergecross73 msg me 20:43, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

This is disappointing. Focusing on what it means for Wikipedia, I'll repeat a refrain that I keep bringing up at the reliable source discussion page.

Even our best sources are mixing in more churnalism / game guide / meme content. We have to confront the idea that even our best sources are somewhat situational. That means we should offer more guidance on how to use different kinds of coverage. (For example, we should always summarize game reviews, carefully use game lists, and rarely use game guides.) Shooterwalker (talk) 15:54, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

The only advice i can give anybody here regarding online sources is: If you see something that is part of an article you're interested in working on it, better archive that website or take a screencap of it. You never known what might happen in the future. Do i even have to bring up 1UP.com as an example of a website bought by IGN that was later closed down and the surviving links don't even work properly? Roberth Martinez (talk) 16:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

the WMF engine has a built in mechanism that I believe autoarchives any reference added to an article. — Masem (t) 00:08, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

About time MKsLifeInANutshell (talk) 14:15, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

? Sergecross73 msg me 15:49, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Nah i just meant its about time Ziff Davis bought Gamer Network too MK at your service. 18:21, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Reminder: avoid creating articles on newly announced games simply based on announcement

with Not-E3 starting today with the Summer Game Fest kickoff, a reminder that just because a game is announced doesn't mean we should be rushing to create an article on it. Unless you can include a fair amount of aspects like development from reliable sources, it is better to create redirects from these games to series pages, an existing game that it is tied to, or to individual studios if a new IP. — Masem (t) 12:56, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Sergecross73 msg me 13:11, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, if you can only write one paragraph on a new game that gets announced, wait. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:11, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Case in point... soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 17:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I'd actually tend to disagree with creating the article right away, since it's going to happen regardless in the future, but I'm instead against making them for a different reason: none of us regulars make these articles, so it's usually someone new and inexperienced who just wants to hit the "first" button. Because of this these articles are of such horrible quality and formatting, and the ratio of mistakes to actual info is so bad that's it's better to just blow it up and try again later. Panini! • 🥪 23:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

New Articles (June 3 to June 9)

Main page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/New article announcements

 A listing of all articles newly added to the Video Games Wikiproject (regardless of creation date). Generated by v3.20 of the RecentVGArticles script and posted by PresN. Bug reports and feature requests are appreciated. --PresN 16:07, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• Articles deleted/removed: Creative Vault Studios, BIbarel, Croalurk, Magnufo, Starlbird, Starlhawk, Laniatus
• Drafts deleted/removed: Draft:List of video games with bots, Draft:Chun Wah Kong, Draft:Lore Game, Draft:Ludo: Animal Heroes, Draft:Palia (Video Game), Draft:Ramón Castro Marín, Draft:Roguelite, Draft:LEGO Ninjago: Tournament, Draft:Tram Simulator: Urban Transit, Draft:Super Mario RPG (2023), Draft:Flock (Upcoming video game), Draft:Freelancer 2120: The Asaka Contract, Draft:Frog Paradise, Draft:Last KM, Draft:Bidoof, Draft:List of Minecraft mobs
• Articles redirected: Wii Menu, VACnet, Big the Cat, Rewired (demoparty)
• Categories deleted/removed: Azure Striker Gunvolt series, Game design, 2002 abandonware games for Windows, 2004 abandonware games for Windows, 2014 abandonware games for Windows, Japanese-language-only video games, Ludomusicology, Game culture
• Templates deleted/removed: {{Video game abbreviation}}, {{Xbox.com}}, {{Mobile Legends: Bang Bang Mid Season Cup result}}
• New categories: EightyEight Games games — Waxworker, Watch Dogs — (Oinkers42), English people in the video game industry — Smasongarrison, Games based on Starship Troopers — BOZ (newly tagged - originally created 1 year ago), Gloom engine games — Comrade Graham, Sid Meier games — Mike Selinker (newly tagged - originally created 15 years ago), Video games designed by Nifflas — Zxcvbnm, Lightning Fish games — MKsLifeInANutshell (newly tagged - originally created 2 months ago), Video game labor relations — XTheBedrockX, Video games about school shootings — Renamed user ZL56zq6jivhZZk (newly tagged - originally created 7 months ago), Amusement arcades — SilkTork (newly tagged - originally created 12 years ago), Character songs — Kanghuitari (newly tagged - originally created 8 years ago), Esports teams based in Saudi Arabia — Soulbust, Team Falcons players — Soulbust, Video gaming stubs — QuantumFoam66, Arabic-language-only video games — QuantumFoam66, Czech-language-only video games — QuantumFoam66, Germany-exclusive video games — QuantumFoam66, Microsoft antagonists — Cwf97 (newly tagged - originally created 5 years ago), Microsoft characters — Cwf97 (newly tagged - originally created 5 years ago), Microsoft protagonists — Cwf97 (newly tagged - originally created 5 years ago), Poland-exclusive video games — QuantumFoam66, Portuguese-language-only video games — QuantumFoam66, Region-exclusive video game hardware — QuantumFoam66, Russia-exclusive video games — QuantumFoam66, Spanish-language-only video games — QuantumFoam66, Wikipedia categories named after video games — QuantumFoam66, Alpha Unit games — Waxworker, Anshar Publishing games — Waxworker, Evil Empire (company) games — Waxworker, Indie.io games — Pcj, Surefire Games games — Waxworker, Vertigo Games games — Waxworker

June 3

• Aaron Stone (edit talk links history) — DCFan101 (newly tagged – originally created 15 years ago)

June 4

• Assassin's Creed (soundtrack) (edit talk links history) — 223.178.84.100 (was previously a redirect)
• Cosmic DJ (edit talk links history) — 47.153.138.166 (previously a draft: accepted AfC submission)
• Lost Eidolons (edit talk links history) — A412 (previously a userpage: undrafted by original creator)

June 5

• The Wayward Realms (edit talk links history) — Agos226 (previously a draft: accepted AfC submission)
• Bodycam (video game) (edit talk links history) — Kiwiz1338
• Squad Busters (edit talk links history) — Acquamarina
• Super Best Friends Play (edit talk links history) — PantheonRadiance
• Team Falcons (edit talk links history) — Soulbust (previously a draft: undrafted by original creator)

June 6

• Bonfire (Dark Souls) (edit talk links history) — PrimalMustelid (was previously a redirect)
• Psycho Mantis (edit talk links history) — Pokelego999 (was previously a redirect)
• Floss (dance) (edit talk links history) — Gidev (newly tagged – originally created 6 years ago)
• Knytt Stories (edit talk links history) — Zxcvbnm (previously a draft: undrafted by original creator)
• M0NESY (edit talk links history) — Ethanflics123
• Oliver Cotton (edit talk links history) — Ben King (newly tagged – originally created 18 years ago)
• Orange Justice (edit talk links history) — LittleT889
• The Narrator (The Stanley Parable) (edit talk links history) — Pokelego999 (previously a userpage: undrafted by original creator)
• The Wizard Sniffer (edit talk links history) — Bensin (newly tagged – originally created 6 months ago)

June 7

• Undisputed (video game) (edit talk links history) — Chezza123 (previously a draft: accepted AfC submission)
• Final Fantasy XIV: Dawntrail (edit talk links history) — Axem Titanium (was previously a redirect)
• Jonathan Coulton (edit talk links history) — Jp3z (newly tagged – originally created 18 years ago)
• Little Miss Geek (edit talk links history) — Mirandasolley (newly tagged – originally created 11 years ago)
• Pacific Storm: The Midway Campaign (edit talk links history) — BOZ
• Strategic Command WW1: The Great War 1914-1918 (edit talk links history) — FOARP (newly tagged – originally created 4 months ago)
• Within a Deep Forest (edit talk links history) — Zxcvbnm (previously a draft: undrafted by original creator)
• Zotac Zone (edit talk links history) — Baratiiman (previously a draft: undrafted by original creator)

June 8

• Evo 2018 (edit talk links history) — UltraDark (newly tagged – originally created 5 years ago)
• Kunitsu-Gami: Path of the Goddess (edit talk links history) — OceanHok

June 9

• Barry Burton (edit talk links history) — Boneless Pizza! (was previously a redirect)
• Mike Haggar (edit talk links history) — Kung Fu Man (was previously a redirect)
• Aiden Pearce (edit talk links history) — TheBritinator (was previously a redirect)
• Eternal Strands (edit talk links history) — OceanHok
• Fatal Fury: City of the Wolves (edit talk links history) — Cyberlink420 (was previously a redirect – un-redirected 2 months ago)
• Phantom Blade Zero (edit talk links history) — NootyNooter

Was not expecting to see a game called The Wizard Sniffer on the list. (or ever) QuicoleJR (talk) 16:33, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

And maybe you (we) shouldn't have either? I've never heard of it before, but the sourcing in the article doesn't make a very strong case for notability at least... Sergecross73 msg me 18:03, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I think something similar to what Draft:Lore Game probably was could actually be a good idea. All those indie horror games have those deeper storylines and ARGs that have recently become merchandise and marketing traps, and because of it the concept may have received some significant coverage. Panini! • 🥪 23:04, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Until it could be expanded significantly, I would add a subgenre section on "Liminal spaces" to Horror game using this as a source https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/backrooms-liminal-spaces-and-the-subliminal-menace-of-loneliness-in-indie-horror-games and identifying games like the Backrooms and Exit 8 as leading examples of these. Masem (t) 23:10, 11 June 2024 (UTC)