Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chemistry

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Bicapped square antiprism

Hello. I am not an expert in chemistry, but I have an article related to this topic. In this source, the bicapped square antiprism may have an example of such cluster, that is ${\ce {Ni_{10}C(CO)_{18}^{2-}}}$. But I do not know whether this is correct (from the article I linked). I really appreciate someone explaining the technical of this chemistry topic. Thank you. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 14:24, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

@Dedhert.Jr The sources do seem to support the text in our article. The links (to Google books) give the specific pages with the information. I don't like the section title "Application" in the article: I would rather call this "Occurrences" or "Examples". You should be able to get a better feeling of the geometry of the antiprism by clicking on the 3D model image: this opens to a larger version which can be moved around to get a comparison with the diagrams in the publications. I presume that the chemical details were confirmed by X-ray crystallography. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:55, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

For such "deltahedra", the boron hydrides are always a good source. Check out the closo clusters [B₁₀H₁₀]^2-, [CB₉H₁₀]^-, [C₂B₈H₁₀], [NB₉H₁₀]. There may be some zintl ions with that geometry.--Smokefoot (talk) 15:41, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

doi:10.1021/ic00099a031 supports this geometry for [C₂B₈H₁₀] using electron diffraction. DMacks (talk) 16:00, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Another example: File:Decaborate(10)-dianion-from-xtal-3D-bs-17.png. Ben (talk) 23:40, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

@Michael D. Turnbull. Thank you for suggestions. But I think that applications is more suitable in the context, and we have two GA articles Square pyramid and Triaugmented triangular prism in which the geometry of chemical compounds explicitly described in the applications. I do think there are some other applications of gyroelongated square bipyramid, and the section of that article may have some connection with a project.

As well as explanation of the article I linked, is it possible to create a new article Bicapped square antiprism molecular geometry, along with the sources provision? Dedhert.Jr (talk) 01:45, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

I the ideal world, we would edit square antiprismatic molecular geometry, with a subsection on the capping processes. In that way, we could also acknowledge the mono-capped shape corresponding to the nido clusters related to B9H13.--Smokefoot (talk) 02:39, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm no expert in chemistry once again, and maybe for the better idea, creating a section that contains a similar chemical compound: square prismatic and cubic geometry, capped and bicapped square antiprismatic molecular geometry? But perhaps we already have capped square antiprismatic molecular geometry, and the bicapped one could fit inside as well? That's my opinion; any other ideas are welcome. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 11:19, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Someone needs to check the symmetry groups: C4v and D4h for mono- and bicapped? --Smokefoot (talk) 14:03, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

The point groups look fine to me, assuming that the substituents are all the same excluding the center. Bicapped square antiprismatic might just be d4 though depending on the identity of the different species, but that might leave you with a different geometry altogether. (Update: Just confirmed that it should be D4d. D4h is the group for a bicapped cube.) Reconrabbit 00:15, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Speaking of which, in the article Polyhedral skeletal electron pair theory, what does 4n rules means here? Does it refer to the triangular face polyhedron? I'm kind of planning to add them to the article I linked, but it is not very clear to describe such rules, and it is somewhat technical to comprehend. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 04:13, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

n refers to the number of electrons provided by a vertex. I'm a little rusty on it, but HB "counts" as a 2-electron vertex. B has three valence electrons (third column) but allocates one electron to forming a very strong B-H bond (H provides the other). The remaining 2e are then available as the glue to hold the polyhedron together. The main parameters are number of "cluster electrons" and the number of vertices (B, C, metal atoms). There are magic numbers, which give deltahedra. Its a big area. Things get complicated because, for example, Fe(CO)₃ also is viewed as a 2-electron vertex. --Smokefoot (talk) 23:38, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Functional group compatibility

It appears that we lack an article on functional group compatibility. If anyone wants to create it, the new article or new section would be immediately linkable to multiple pre-existing articles, which is always very satisfying. One thought is that it could be a section within Protecting group or within functional group. March's organic text refers to the term 5x within the context of specific reactions. --Smokefoot (talk) 23:38, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

How to write crystal water in the chem template

For Tahoka Formation, how do I write the dot between the water and the rest of the formula? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Don't use chem, it has ugly output, instead use chem2. Chem2 converted the * to a centre-dot · . However I prefer to use • as it is more visible. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Split x-ray diffraction from x-ray crystallography

I propose splitting X-ray diffraction out of X-ray crystallography, discussion started at Talk:X-ray crystallography#Split x-ray diffraction and crystallography. The two are not the same, and there are many areas of XRD where the focus is not on detailed determination of atomic positions. Examples are powder diffraction where comparison is made to known samples, SAXS and many more. There are many areas/pages where it is relevant to say "use XRD" but wrong to say use "X-ray crystallography This would also help to improve the current rambling X-ray crystallography page. Comments to the X-ray crystallography talk page please. Ldm1954 (talk) 08:40, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Definitions of chemical element

Is there a reason the definition of chemical element seems to vary according to the date you look at the article ? Currently it is defined as a monotypical atomic substance, but a few years ago it was the "species of atom with same atomic number" that was used. I wonder why it's not even mentioned in the article now, the Goldbook cited in the introduction gives the two. frwiki, dewiki, itwiki uses the atomic one, if I'm not mistaken.

The first one seems more complicated and actually a bit dated/historical, the second one is more convenient. The first one is « simple substance  » on Wikidata and there are several wikis that have articles about that. Maybe we should sort the interwikis and move articles to the right item ? TomT0m (talk) 19:26, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Class of DNA/RNA monomer-related structures

Nucleobase is the heterocyclic variable group, nucleoside is nucleobase+sugar, nucleotide is nucleotide+phosphate. Is there a term for the parent category containing all of those? I'm working on organizing some synthetic-biology chemical pages, for which we don't have very many of any one of those three but we have some and they do form a coherent topic set. DMacks (talk) 16:39, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Seems like a very worthy project. It looks like we have a full complement of articles on the main natural nucleosides, although some articles might lack a basic ref to a standard biochem textbook. Is there a good online biochem textbook that is not behind a paywall? It would be appropriate to have articles for each of the main natural nucleotide monophosphates (and eventually all of the diphosphates and triphosphates). I am trying to think of what core info we might want for these articles because otherwise their physical properties are probably comparable and unremarkable. Maybe their tautomers (for the nucleobase articles), base-pairing partners, their susceptibility to modification (N- or O-methylation as in epigenetics). Good luck. --Smokefoot (talk) 16:18, 2 May 2024 (UTC)