Wikipedia:Reference desk/all

Wikipedia Reference Desk – All recent questions	Search Wikipedia:
WP:RD/ALL redirects here. You may also be looking for Wikipedia:Resolving disputes, Wikipedia:Redirect or Wikipedia:Deletion review. This page lists all the recent questions asked on the Wikipedia reference desk by category. To ask a new question, please select one of the categories below. To answer a question, click on the "edit" link beside the question. Return to the Reference Desk main page... For information on any topic, choose a category for your question:
Computers and IT Science Mathematics Humanities Computing, information technology, electronics, software and hardware Biology, chemistry, physics, medicine, geology, engineering and technology Mathematics, geometry, probability, and statistics History, politics, literature, religion, philosophy, law, finance, economics, art, and society Language Entertainment Miscellaneous Archives Spelling, grammar, word etymology, linguistics, language usage, and requesting translations Sports, popular culture, movies, music, video games, and TV shows Subjects that don't fit in any of the other categories Old questions are archived daily Help desk Village pump Ask general questions about using Wikipedia Ask about specific policies and operations of Wikipedia Help manual MediaWiki handbook Citing Wikipedia Resolving disputes Virtual classroom Information and instructions on every aspect of Wikipedia Information about the software that runs Wikipedia How to cite Wikipedia as a reference For resolving issues between users An advanced guide on everything Wikipedia See also the Wikipedia department directory
The following images are being used under the GNU FDL and/or the CC-BY-SA license: P computing.svg, P physics.svg, P mathematics.svg, P question.svg, P art.png, P literature.svg, P music.svg, P archive.svg, P Airplane.png

April 26

Tik Tok

I don't use or care about Tik Tok but for some reason I thought it was like a cross between Youtube and Twitter, where people could post and view videos using either an app or a web browser. But some of the stuff in the news about banning it depicts it as accessed purely by an app, not a browser. Is that correct? Thanks. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:6CE6 (talk) 21:02, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

About two years ago I uploaded a few videos to TikTok on a desktop web browser and it worked just fine. I haven't opened TikTok since then, so it might've changed. —Panamitsu (talk) 21:31, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article about TikTok that should tell you all you need to know. Shantavira|^{feed me} 13:51, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it should, it's a pity. Is TikTok mainly used as the app version rather than the browser version? Does the browser version lack the tools for video recording and adding sound effects and music? Do web users face other annoyances such as all their videos being automatically cropped and letterboxed? Is there an issue around compatibility with Apple? When our article says "app", does it sometimes really mean "the app and the web version" and sometimes not?

I don't know of good references to cite for any of these questions, but searching around gave me hints.  Card Zero  (talk) 23:36, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I have never used TikTok but it sounds like the web version lacked a mobile version originally [1]. It was only perhaps on 2021 or 2022 that they began to introduce a decent PWA with mobile support and bring the UI etc over to their PWA plus also supporting larger screens with a decent UI [2] [3]. Also although I don't have a source for this, while some like the Chrome Unboxed writer might like TikTok on a larger screen device, TikTok somewhat akin to Instagram is extremely mobile centric with their weird aspect ratio etc intended to be viewed on mobile devices. (Somewhat similar to Instagram.) Note that while the screenshots might have been in landscape, I can't help wondering if they mostly watch TikTok with the screen portrait even on their ChromeBook, something which might be possible there and with some laptops but definitely difficult on many desktops. In any case, mobile targeted seems to fit with the demographic they've had success with. And while plenty of people hate the often fairly app centric mobile ecosystem where everything seems to want to be an app, and I mean an actual app rather than a PWA, even if the app is only a glorified web front-end; I'm not sure this the case for most of their audience who might prefer an actual app. (Also decent video apps are often a little better than just glorified web frontends.) In other words while TikTok web might be a real thing including possibly a decent PWA, there's a good chance this is something only a tiny portion of their audience use. Also while TikTok might potentially have a decent PWA nowadays I suspect it's still the case that content creation features on the web are still much more limited [4]. And AFAIK TikTok is still a place where a lot of the popular content is just something someone quickly shot on their phone and did some basic editing via the TikTok app. Not a place like Youtube etc where a lot of the popular content nowadays may be edited to a high degree in Adobe Premier or other professional video editing programs, often even by professional editors. So the probably more limited creation features on the web is probably a big deal for many creators. (To be clear, both exist on both platforms, we're talking matters of degrees. Remember also that TikTok videos tend to be short, so while there may be major creators who do such editing elsewhere, there might not be enough of them producing enough content. Plus even if they were it might get repetitive or boring if that's all people see. One thing many media sources do report on is TikTok's algorithms being extremely effective at serving people content they enjoy. This BBC article on TikTok in India is possibly illustrative of wider trends in TikTok content [5].) Nil Einne (talk) 06:22, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

April 30

Cursor hovering over the thumbnail at YouTube

On my YouTube subscription list, if the cursor hovers over the thumbnail of a video, the video starts playing (without audio) inside the thumbnail. When I click on the video, it then starts playing at the point where the thumbnail got to. That means if I don't notice that the cursor is hovering over a video, when I open it, it might start 15 minutes in, and I have to stop and restart the video to watch from the beginning. This has got to be one of the most useless and annoying features I've ever seen on a website. Is there any way to turn it off? Can I go to Settings and click something so it stops doing that? —Mahāgaja · talk 11:36, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Go into your settings (click on your icon), go into Playback and Performance, turn off Video Previews. It will turn it off for 30-60 days. Then, it tends to turn back on. I believe that it turns back on because Youtube counts those previews as views, increasing viewership counts. Similarly, I turn off the shorts. They turn off for 30 days and turn back on again. I also turn off autoplay. That stays off for longer, usually, but turns back on eventually. Again, having it autoplay increases view counts. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 12:01, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! I turned off video previews. I had no option for turning off shorts, but they annoy me less now that they're segregated into their own section of the subscription page rather than being lumped in with the full-length videos, like they used to be. I've had autoplay switched off for years and it's never turned back on. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:12, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

May 4

How do I write this road trip?

On the Data Structures unit of a CodeHS course, there’s a part where I’m supposed to write a road trip in Java. The GeoLocation class was mostly autogenerated (requiring just a few additions that I already made) and most of the RoadTrip class seems simple. It wants me to store the stops on the road trip in an ArrayList, so I wrote “private ArrayList<RoadTrip> stations;”. The part where I’m having an issue is the function “public void addStop(String name, double latitude, double longitude)”. How do I write this part, and how do I add the stops to the ArrayList with “stations.add();”? ArrayLists only have one dimension, but I need to store three pieces of information about each stop. Primal Groudon (talk) 14:22, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Making RoadTrip an array implies that you are working with a bunch of road trips. It appears that you have one road trip and you want to have multiple stops. So, your road trip object/class should contain an array of stops. This is the basic concept of relationships. In your example, you claim that a road trip "is a" array of stations. But, in reality, a road trip "contains" or "has a" array of stations. The whole "is a" and "has a" relationship concept is difficult for new object-oriented developers, but it is supposed to be simplified by filling in the sentence: A road trip ____ an array of stations. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 15:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

May 5

Logarathmic scale for page views

In page information, if you click no. of page views, you see a graph for daily page views for a period. You also get a logarithmic scale. What additional insight does it provide, and is thus helpful? ExclusiveEditor _{Notify Me!} 10:14, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

It is useful when there are large variations in the edit counts over time as a logarithmic scale expands low numbers. An illustrative example might be an article that describes a current event: As it happens and interest is high, there may be hundreds of edits per day, whereas some time after, as interest wanes or the article is reasonably complete, those numbers might decrease to a few edits per day. On a linear scale, those few edits (representing just a hundredth of the peak) tend to disappear, hardly distinguishable from zero. On a logarithmic scale they are clearly visible, making it possible to follow periods of high and low activity on the same graph. Addendum: replace "edit" by "view"... --Wrongfilter (talk) 10:55, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

@ExclusiveEditor: See e.g. page views for Bernard Hill who died 5 May. Without logarithmic scale you cannot even see how many views he got before, and it was far more than most articles. PrimeHunter (talk) 08:30, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Two zeros in Ones' complement

Computers using ones' complement have two ways to represent zero. Back in my day, I used Fortran on such a machine. I just checked for 0. I assume that is the way it was with all high-level languages on such a machine (correct me if I'm wrong).

But in assembler or machine language, would you have to check for both forms of zero? Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 22:26, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't know how the different languages handled it, but the article does say [...] a side effect of negative zero is that software must test for negative zero. RudolfRed (talk) 02:13, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Some ones' complement models (e.g. the Electrologica X1) had a zero-test as part of the machine instructions (see here, section 2.4.3  Condition-setting), so one test sufficed for plus-or-minus zero. When using high-level languages such as FORTRAN or ALGOL, the issue was not visible to the user.  --Lambiam 13:38, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

One's complement was used in older models (PDP, LINC) and programmers had to handle value properly. By 1985, this was codified in IEEE 754, stating that -0 and +0 are the same value and programming languages should treat them as such. You mention Fortran. Unless it is a very old version, Fortran's compiler treated zero as unsigned, so both -0 and +0 were just 0, converted as such in the compiler. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 17:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. You speak of early Fortran, the first Fortran I used was FORTRAN IV and it must have handled that for the programmer. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 04:27, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

You mentioned using a 1s complement machine and using Fortran. That tells me you must have been using a DEC F40 on a PDP. Fortran IV was ported to other old mainframes, primarily for education purposes, but DEC ported it (as F40) for the PDP series for business use. DEC F40's compiler handled positive/negative zero, but also gave the programmer the ability to distinguish between them if desired. If you were using a different Fortran on a different computer, I have to assume that that version of Fortran also handled positive/negative zero in the compiler in much the same way. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 12:18, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

It was actually on a CDC 6400. We used a Fortran IV textbook. CDC had enhancements to Fortran IV, but I didn't know about them until I bought my own CDC Fortran manuals a few years later Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 02:08, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

May 6

I need some reliable sources about the history of computer startup sounds.

I'm trying to write an article about computer startup sounds. The draft can be found at: Draft:Startup sound. I need help finding some good sources about the history of startup sounds as well as writing the article itself. Could someone please help me with the article? Thanks! Félix An (talk) 06:53, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The thing that immediately springs to mind is Brian Eno's work on the startup sound used in Windows 95, which is discussed in his article with some sources you can peruse. Otherwise, it would likely make sense for you to investigate histories of places and people who were developing systems like Microsoft and Apple. Remsense诉 06:58, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh dear! I thought of those ancient mainframes where when one switched them on various relays would click as the different bits got poweed up and all the fans would start running and eventually it could read cards or a paper tape and run a noisy lineprinter chunk chunk chunk chunk. But if you put vintage computers into Google it comes up with ones from the 90's! I was already on my third home computer by then! NadVolum (talk) 18:19, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

pdf and pictures

If there is a PDF novel written in a non-English language. which are mostly scanned books of old novels that have no online version. Then is there any software or online website that can lift the written text from PDF scans and write those lines? They are not original pdf files that can be edited by a pdf editor but scanned picture books by scan machine and then uploaded in Asian languages. 2409:40E1:C9:E2A:CCC2:B6C:CF71:29B3 (talk) 09:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it is very possible to use optical character recognition for non-Latin scripts. Specifically, Asian languages are often well-supported, including Chinese characters written both horizontally and vertically. I use a complicated command line script, but I will try looking for an easy web tool to do it. But I wanted to make it clear it's possible. Remsense诉 09:29, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

May 7

Software for generating directed graphs

Is there software that will generate a directed graph such as this one, given a list of "from" and "to" numbers? It will include a cycle. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 02:24, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

As the description says, it was created with Graphviz, which should be usable for your purpose.  --Lambiam 07:23, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

You can use graphviz, mermaid, cytoscape, d3js (look up observablehq). D3Js can do almost everything svg can do, but of course you need to roll your own display algorithms. Graphviz strenghts is that you dont need to care about manual placement, but with complex graphs it will not be pretty. You can also use TikZ or CetZ 2A02:F28:F:36A0:0:0:0:100B (talk) 08:37, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

• Thanks. Graphviz looks like it will do the job and the language is easy to use Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 04:04, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

May 9

Are the IP addresses used by VPNs recognizable?

Are the IP addresses used by VPNs recognizable as such? Can sites you're accessing tell you're using a VPN? I've noticed WP does not let an anonymous user make edits if that user is using the free (fairly limited) VPN service that comes with the Microsoft Edge browser. But does Wikipedia recognize VPN users in all cases? Does it always prevent anonymous users from editing WP if WP can tell they are using a VPN? Of is it the case only for some VPNs? 178.51.93.5 (talk) 01:08, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

They are not generally recognizable per se as such. The policy against open proxies does not apply to private VPNs. IPs from public VPNs may be blocked on sight. This requires identifying them as a public VPN service, which AFAIK is not automatic.  --Lambiam 09:22, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

April 26

Mass-radius relations of stars and mean molecular weight

Are there analytical expressions that describe how the radii of white dwarfs change with mean molecular weight? JoJo Eumerus mobile (main talk) 19:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

See White dwarf#Mass–radius relationship. The radius goes down fairly quickly as the mass increases. NadVolum (talk) 20:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

The radius depends on the mean molecular weight through the number of electrons per unit mass N. Ruslik_Zero 20:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Thx. Is there a similar approximation for nondegenerate matter like brown dwarfs? JoJo Eumerus mobile (main talk) 13:56, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Brown dwarfs don't really change in radius as their mass changes. Radius stays nearly constant as mass increases from the onset of significant self-compression (about Saturn's mass) to the onset of hydrogen burning (turning into a red dwarf at about 75 Jupiter masses). So they'd all more or less be one Jupiter in radius – you already see the low end of this in the Solar System, with Jupiter not being much larger in radius than Saturn. Double sharp (talk) 18:10, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

@Double sharp: Does the radius change with mean molecular mass, though? JoJo Eumerus mobile (main talk) 13:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

In terms of their major components, wouldn't brown dwarfs all resemble Jupiter in composition? Particularly so since many would have depleted their deuterium through fusion by the time we observed them. So I kind of doubt mean molecular mass would vary that much between them to produce noticeable changes. But admittedly I'm guessing here. Double sharp (talk) 05:46, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Nope - brown dwarfs around Black Widow Pulsar-like pulsars may be stripped down remains of stars and thus consist mainly of helium (or carbon, oxygen etc.). Brown dwarfs formed from white dwarf debris (around black holes) or kilonova ejecta may also contain other elements. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Interesting: you learn something new every day, I suppose! OTOH, I guess most brown dwarfs would still be directly produced and thus indeed resemble Jupiter in composition. Anyway, it doesn't seem like the companion to the Black Widow Pulsar has a known radius, so the question may be unanswerable for now. Double sharp (talk) 10:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Equations of state have been derived for numerous elements, and even scaled for non-hydrogen compositions. So there should be a theoretical estimate somewhere. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:57, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

April 29

Origin of a formula constant

I have discovered by an accurate empirical method that a constant needed in a predictive mathematical formula is 0.986093(7). In the SI metric system, the constants generally turn out to have simple origins, e.g., 2, pi, 4/3 times pi and the like, or fundamental constants such as the speed of light c, which I believe is not relevant here. Can anybody spot the components of 0.9860937 ? I have not been able to deduce it. ```` Dionne Court (talk) 14:35, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

$2^{-0.{\overline {02}}}$, or, if you like, $1/{\sqrt[{99}]{4}}$. —Amble (talk) 16:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

OK, I'll bite. How did you get that? Greglocock (talk) 00:36, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Nothing too clever — I just guessed there should be good matches with $n^{-1/p}$ for some integer n and p. I tested n by brute force, and for each n, used $p=-\log(n)/\log(x)$, rounded to the nearest whole number. There are many possible answers, with n=4 as the first one. Although I took the (7) at the end to be an uncertainty level, and looking again, that may not be what OP intended. —Amble (talk) 03:51, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I included brackets around the 7 to indicate that due to random experimental error, the value is centred around 7 but could be anything. Thus you could infer that the 3 before it is accurate (if I made no error in procedure).

The n^-p form doesn't help much because I cannot imagine any reason why it should be so. Its a bit like how we were taught in school to use 22/7 as pi - there is no reason for it, it is just a coincidence that 22/7 evaluates to equal pi to 3 places. It gives no insight into WHY pi equals 3.1416..... ```` Dionne Court (talk) 11:30, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Right. The n^-p form is a silly example. The point is that you can produce a matching value in an infinity of ways. Without more information about the underlying process, there's no possible way to know which (if any) may be relevant. The notation I'm familiar with uses parentheses to indicate the standard uncertainty in the final digit (or digits), as shown in the NIST page here: [6]. --Amble (talk) 17:18, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

You may be interested in this inverse symbolic calculator, though it doesn't seem to recognize your constant. Staecker (talk) 23:31, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I love that calculator. I wish I had known about it before. Thanks. ```` Dionne Court (talk) 00:56, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I used to work with a lot of predictive formulas and nearly all of them had constants. They were calculated by using large populations and working out a best fit regression formula. The resulting constants were not based on pi or the speed of light or anything recognizable. They were based on average biological processes of humans, such as how many creatinine is cleared by the bladder on average. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 12:40, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem I have been working on is not a biological process, as you may realise from the six-digit precision of the constant. It is within the realm of physics. In physics one seeks to discover why the constants are what they are and thus understand the process.

In complex biological process, the constants could be any weird thing, as dozens or hundreds of sub-processes are involved. In physics, the constants are usually very simple combinations of integers, pi, squared or rooted, trig identities, whatever. ```` Dionne Court (talk) 02:29, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

That formula above uses less symbols when printed than the given constant, I think that's pretty impressive. Too many of these approximations are worse 22/7 = 3.1428 with four symbols is only just about shorter if one says the 28 is close to 16. NadVolum (talk) 17:15, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

355/113 gets pi to six figures past the decimal point, which is eight symbols if you count the 3 and the period. The fraction is only seven characters if you write it without spaces. --Trovatore (talk) 23:23, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Of course π itself is just one symbol.... --Trovatore (talk) 23:29, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I think they told us in high school to use 22/7 so that we could more easily spot where algebraic cancellation could be used by dumping unnecessary precision. If it was about saving digits, they could have just told us to memorise 3.142. ```` Dionne Court (talk) 02:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I remember problems were often rigged to have a factor of 7 that you could cancel upon approximating pi as 22/7. With 3.14 that would be much harder. Double sharp (talk) 05:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

April 30

Tokyo Toilet smart glass defect

Hi all! I was looking through a machine translation of this press release PDF, which seems to indicate that the smart glass used for the walls of one of the toilet designs for the Tokyo Toilet project is locked into the opaque state during months where there's a drop in temperature. This document includes the word "Defects" in the URL, which I assume refers to this design only being operational during certain times of the year as a solution to some unspecified problem, but I'm struggling to find out why/how exactly the temperature affects this toilet's smart glass functionality. It's specifically tricky because trying to perform a cursory search on how temperature affects smart glass seems to mainly pull up info about passive thermochromic smart glass, but other articles and footage of the switch toggle have led me to believe that this is an active and electrically switchable smart glass setup, so unless I'm mistaken, that thermochromic info wouldn't be relevant here. Basically, I'm just looking for any leads as to what's going on here lol thanks! ~Helicopter Llama~ 16:14, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like it's a cholesteric liquid crystal panel or something similar. These were briefly fashionable for electrically switchable opaque/transparent wall panels back in the 1990's. The company I worked for had it on one floor of their high rise head office. They were notorious for not working at low temperatures (< 10 C) and failing completely at high temperatures (> 35 C)

Another possibility is the method used in auto-switching variable darkening welding helmets - I don't know how they work, other than knowing they are battery powered and are controlled by a light sensor. ```` Dionne Court (talk) 02:12, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

May 1

Sub-brown dwarf detection (in a way)

If a copy of Jupiter (with a copy of all the moons) was a rogue planet freely floating in space, how close would it have to be to the Solar System for us to be able to detect it? And how close would it have to be for us to be able to detect the Galilean moons? Double sharp (talk) 05:58, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

There was one such search using WISE satellite. Its conclusion is that there is no Jupiter-like body closer than 82,000 au to Sun, no Saturn-like body closer than 28,000 au. Ruslik_Zero 20:40, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

It is possible of course to use a bigger telescope but they are usually have quite a narrow field of view. Ruslik_Zero 20:42, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Exoplanets are being detected throughout our Milky Way galaxy whose center is about 27,000 lightyears distant and potentially in other galaxies using Gravitational microlensing. Some physical parameters of exoplanets can be estimated but not whether they have moons. Philvoids (talk) 23:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Dinosaurs and the future

Did dinosaurs know the future? In particular, did they know that they will eventually be killed millions of years later? They probably did not know that there will be humans in the future. But perhaps, they could already know what will happen to them in the next few million years. GTrang (talk) 16:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

There's no evidence that dinosaurs ever developed human-like intelligence and intellect, to the point of being able to go beyond the mere needs of immediate survival (find food, hunt prey, escape from predators) and make more existential questions like that. Cambalachero (talk) 17:24, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Gary Larson postulated the possibility:[7] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:30, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Humans do not know what will happen to humankind in the next one hundred years.  --Lambiam 06:13, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Lemmings do. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 14:30, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

In a thousand years we might have Idiocracy or might be starting to expand to the stars. Who can say. I think this comes under crystal ball speculation. NadVolum (talk) 17:15, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

These kinds of comments always make me laugh. Do you read the professional literature at all? Aside from a fringe group of hyper-captialists, most scientists don't believe we will survive another thousand years, let alone another few centuries. Civilization itself, which is just a way to describe an orderly, structured form of functional human society, could devolve into chaos and strife at any moment, and in some countries, that has already happened. Dinosaurs and humans appear to share a lot in common. Viriditas (talk) 20:09, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Dinosaurs lasted a pretty long time. We'd have to go extinct to not recover within a short time whether that's a hundred years or ten thousand. I view both those futures I outlined as easily possible ones and extinction as a less likely one. NadVolum (talk) 20:47, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I honestly don't see the longevity of dinosaurs in the past having anything whatsoever to do with the longevity of humans in the present. There's literally no connection. As you already know, 99.9% of all species that ever existed are gone, and humanity is unlikely to reach half of its average lifespan in relation to other species. This optimism for the future has always seemed like a fantasy to me and distraction from our most basic reality here on Earth, which is that we are unable to live harmoniously with other members of our own species as well as all the rest, and our trajectory is downward, not upward. In fact, you and I are only having this conversation right now because our species eliminated all the other competing species that posed a threat to us. That tendency and behavior has remained unchanged since the beginning, and is unlikely to change in the future. Furthermore, this behavior is entrenched in our culture at a very deep level, and any attempt to escape or break out of it is met with social sanctions at the highest levels. We are, at the end of the day, prisoners of our own biology. Viriditas (talk) 21:14, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Comparing dinosaurs with humans is kind of apples-and-oranges. A better comparison would be dinosaurs and mammals. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:36, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I did have a look for extinction humans on the web and they all seemed to talk about half a billion years or so. They woudn't be humans by that time of course but let's say descendants. I don't see where you got 'most scientists don't believe we will survive another thousand years' from. And people are better off in practically every way nowadays. A search for "are we worse of or better of in the world" gives as its first rentry [8] which shows people think things are getting worse but they're wrong. I go by evidence and the numbers. As to getting on harmoniously homicide rates have been going down for ages worldwide - you definitely don't want to have to live in the past! And as to being a prisoner of our biology see Modern times causing human evolution to accelerate (though take New Scientist with a little pinch of salt!) NadVolum (talk) 23:42, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Half a billion years? Not quite.[9] I've been repeatedly informed that this popular idea that "things are getting better" is a modern form of Whig history.[10] It is not reflected by reality.[11] But hey, it keeps the rubes buying stuff they don't need, which is the point. Viriditas (talk) 00:02, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

We humans are already better for the arms-race survival game than any dinosaur species (than any other species, period) because of our intelligence and intellect. It is such a game-breaking advantage that it allowed us to step aside of Darwinian evolution altogether. Think for example that if any other species want to hunt deer, they would slowly develop body features that make them better at hunting deer, and deer in turn develop ways to escape from their predators. But us? We can create a weapon and mass-produce it in just a couple of generations, and deer have no way to evolve defenses so quickly. We are the apex predators of the whole world, nobody comes even close, and our future is a blank slate unlike that of any other biological species of this world. That's not "Whig history". That's the order of things. Cambalachero (talk) 13:39, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

May 3

Why Bronze Age and not Brass Age?

Why was bronze so much more widely used by the ancients than brass? Was it because zinc was so much harder to come by than tin, or was it because it was so much harder to make high-quality brass than bronze, or was it because bronze had more desirable material properties than brass? 2601:646:8082:BA0:F13B:E84E:494B:CA04 (talk) 04:40, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The principal reason is probably that stated in the lede of Brass,

"Brass is not as hard as bronze, and so is not suitable for most weapons and tools [my italics]. Nor is it suitable for marine uses, because the zinc reacts with minerals in salt water, leaving porous copper behind; marine brass, with added tin, avoids this, as does bronze."

Zinc seems to have been less familiar (and available?) than tin in the Western ancient world, but more widely used further East. However, its use even there seems to have been more often 'ornamental' that practical, probably because of its poorer mechanical properties.

My suspicion is that the fabled metal Orichalcum (Greek oreikhalkos, "mountain copper", but in Latin Aurichalcum, "gold copper") was a form of what we would now classify as brass. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 06:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

There was no 'Brass Age' because, for many years, it was not easy to make brass. Before the 18th century, zinc metal could not be made since it melts at 420ºC and boils at about 950ºC, below the temperature needed to reduce zinc oxide with charcoal. In the absence of native zinc it was necessary to make brass by mixing ground smithsonite ore (calamine) with copper and heating the mixture in a crucible. The heat was sufficient to reduce the ore to metallic state but not melt the copper. The vapor from the zinc permeated the copper to form brass, which could then be melted to give a uniform alloy.

Brief Early History of Brass. Alansplodge (talk) 16:51, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

13 year old me melted a zinc coin in a stainless spoon in a gas flame. I removed the iron the pot or pan lies on, tried to find the flame part of max spoon glow-in-the-dark (spoon incandesced orange) and waited to ensure getting very close to thermal equilibrium. Could I have boiled zinc? The copper electroplate probably didn't melt (post-'82 US pennies are this composition) so I stirred with a straightened paper clip and tried to heat a glob on the clip for a less heat-robbing zinc holder but didn't reach max temp as I didn't want it to drip on the gas holes. A whole penny in the gas ring's bowl didn't seem to boil but did puddle. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:37, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The issue is not with melting already isolated zinc – the ancients could certainly reach the boiling point of zinc. It is rather that the temperature you need to reduce zinc oxide to zinc metal is higher than the boiling point of zinc metal. As a result, the metal evaporates out if you try to smelt it in the open air like you would tin or lead: either the zinc vapour escapes, or it reacts with CO₂ from the furnace and oxidises back again. (Source.) And you can't simply distill the vapours like you could with mercury because zinc vapour is much more reactive than mercury vapour and will oxidise back again in the atmosphere. This is somewhat mitigated if you try to make brass (because it is possible to direct the vapour to mix with the copper before it escapes or oxidises back again), but even then it was pretty difficult. What you need to do to prepare metallic zinc is to trap the vapour until it is cool enough not to react with air – which requires enough trial and error (because, remember, at this point nobody knows what gases are) that it seems that knowledge of how to do this did not spread much outside India (the first to figure it out) in the ancient world.

BTW, for early element discoveries, I quite recommend the Sodium Lamp blog. Double sharp (talk) 07:47, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Did they learn boiled water can be trapped and reconstituted before they discovered how to make zinc? Maybe that's how they got the idea to boil zinc ore in an airtight place and let it cool and see if that worked with zinc too. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

[un-indent] Thanks, everyone! So, it was mostly because bronze had better material properties (at least for the applications which the ancients had for it), plus at least somewhat because of the tricky and non-intuitive method of alloying copper with zinc -- right? 2601:646:8082:BA0:4D5B:DB6C:9EDD:E08F (talk) 11:26, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Reflex to prevent food falling

Sometimes when a piece of food falls from my hands during eating, I have a sort of rapid reflex to prevent it from falling on floor - either by catching or deflecting it to stay on the table. Is it a sort of catching reflex in physiology? 212.180.235.46 (talk) 18:49, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

It's more than just food (as you'll find if you ever find yourself responsible for a small child), though I'm not sure it's a reflex in the technical sense. We have a List of reflexes and the closest thing I can find there is the palmar grasp reflex, which is about how babies and other infant primates grab onto things in an automatic way. This isn't quite the same thing, though. Reflex or not, the human urge to grab things that are falling can be very strong, even when the cause is hopeless or harmful; there's no shortage of videos online of people attempting to right tipping vehicles or catch falling objects they really ought not attempt. I haven't found an appropriate article on this yet, though. Matt Deres (talk) 20:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that this does not qualify as a physiological reflex, since the pathway is not a reflex arc but involves the whole kaboodle of the visual or tactile perception of a valuable item slipping away, the ensuing cognitive recognition of impending disaster, and finally an appropriate response of fine-tuned firing of motor neurons to (hopefully) save the day, all processed in the neocortex.  --Lambiam 20:32, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

And what is the mechanism that should switch this "reflex" off if the thing you have dropped is a scalpel? -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 22:04, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I read a long time ago, in a popular rather than a scientific source, an observation that there is a big sex/gender difference in this behaviour. The suggestion was that men tend to try to catch things, even when the chance of doing so is very small, and that women don't, and in fact try to avoid letting the falling object touch them. But having read the above, I would obviously have my doubts about that for a dropped baby. I assume a mother would always try to catch her baby. HiLo48 (talk) 09:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

In one of Mark Twain's novels (The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn?) a runaway boy is masquerading as a girl, and wearing a dress. Suspecting this, someone tosses an object to him while he is sitting with hands occupied, and he claps his knees together to catch it between his thighs. The tosser (!) then explains that this identifies him as a boy, since a girl would have opened her legs to catch the object in her spread skirt.

I myself have occasionally dropped something and moved to catch it (sometimes successfully) much quicker than I can move by conscious, pre-planned volition. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.175.176 (talk) 07:44, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

takeoff/landing distance graphs

1. I understand that weather stations don't give density as often and runway air's always close to 29g/mol but wouldn't density altitude be more accurate? A drone could fly much easier in a xenon balloon than a hydrogen balloon but a kg/m³ in Earth gravity is a kg/m³ in Earth gravity. So can I just calculate the density altitude from common weather station things like meteorological pressure/altimeter setting and geometric altitude and use that on the ISA+0°C graph? There are formulae and calculators for that online. Maybe they don't want to make the generic jetliner owners manual even longer (they're hundreds of pages) with a graph for every plausible Fahrenheit when it says it's unofficial but I don't know where to read official manual(s). It says each airline gets customized manuals. With the generic manual most temperatures don't have a graph and it doesn't have colder than standard atmosphere or very hot.

2. How do I adjust airport weather station temperature to the temperature that affects runway length used? The thermometers are in a white wood louver a bit lower than large plane wings, they're probably on grass, not significantly heated by jet engines, it should be hotter when it's hot and possibly colder when it's cold. If it's 40 or 50°C in the airport weather station in the local all-time high at 4 meters ground altitude and 40°N and 30°N respectively what's the best estimate and worst case density altitude for concrete runways and asphalt?

3. How do they make these graphs? Do they test fly them, measure the rear gear touch length (plus wheelbase if landing) and add safety factor(s)? How much? Or is it the entire distance from first penetration of a few tens of feet above ground (some precise value) with the lowest part of the plane to foremost front wheel ground touch and rearmost rear wheel ground touch to last penetration of a few tens of feet above ground (another precise value) with the lowest part of the plane or some part of the plane when a certain climb rate or slope is reached if that's later? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Runway length corrections specified by ICAO are 7% increase in runway length for every 300m rise in elevation from the mean sea level and 1% increase in runway length for every 1°C rise in airport reference temperature (Tr) above the standard temperature at elevation (STE). Philvoids (talk) 01:00, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

So if it's ever -85C=-121F at sea level they could ascend like Jesus or use a runway zero meters long? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:28, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Also do they ever taxi backwards after aligning the plane so long as they're absolutely sure they won't go too far back? Maybe for that thing where they calculate the least amount of throttle that'll get them safely off and only shove the throttle to TOGA if there's an emergency like someone suddenly driving in their path after V1? Can the back of the wheel be over the blast pad if no part of the plane touches the yellow line? Unless they have a backup camera I don't know if they could get that close in a reasonable amount of time without risking going too far though. Instead of unbraking before leaving idle power are they allowed to release brakes when engines reach spooled up or at some intermediate value if trying to brake till full power would be sufficiently bad? If they ever do that then can they still be over MTOW till brake release or would they have to reach MTOW by the end of idle power or would they even still have to release the brakes before the takeoff throttle push anyway (signifying MTOW and other post-taxi rules activation) then brake again then push throttle? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:50, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

How exactly would a plane 'taxi backwards' rather than being pushed or pulled by a pushback truck or tug (which would not be present at the start of a runway)? Manoeuvering on the ground by Powerback using Thrust reversal is unavailable on many aircraft, and generally frowned upon: ". . . such operation is prohibited or strongly discouraged by aircraft manufacturers as well as airport safety regulations in nations with actual aviation safety regulating agencies." {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.175.176 (talk) 08:34, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

May 4

HSK taper

Machine_taper#HSK_taper says:

 The shank is short (about half as long as other machine tapers), with a shallow taper (a ratio of 1:10), and slightly too large to allow the flange to seat fully in the socket.

But the drawing right beside that paragraph shows a "1:9.98". Machine_taper#/media/File:DIN_69893_hsk_63a_drawing.png

Which is correct here?

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding something and that the two values are intentionally different. OptoFidelty (talk) 02:44, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

All the refs for current standards I see are 1:9.98. For that, "1:10" seems like a simplified approximation. I agree that we shouldn't make an approximation when stating outright what a standard is. DMacks (talk) 03:45, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

There was a hidden note that clarified it. I've unhidden it. Greglocock (talk) 02:13, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

May 8

Patient 18

Hi everyone, I hope that all of you are fine. Friends, I saw an interview on YouTube with a young man who is at a mental hospital in California (it was in 1961) and it's a famous interview. He has schizophrenia, and talks about his dreams of becoming a piano teacher.

My question is as follows, is his 1961 diagnosis still a criteria for commitment to a psychiatric facility? Have the laws/criteria changed?

Thank you and excuse ignorance, as I'm no professional on any of these fields. CoryGlee (talk) 11:15, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

The laws and their interpretations differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but I think that the general principle is that involuntary commitment to a psychiatric hospital requires a determination that the patient is mentally incapable of taking care of themself or is a danger to themself or others. Many (perhaps most) people who are diagnosed with schizophrenia can nevertheless take care of their own affairs and present no danger to others.  --Lambiam 20:35, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

How short could the beta-decay half-life of a nuclide be?

Even the most neutron-rich nuclides like ¹⁹B has a half-life of >1 ms. Theoretically speaking, could a nuclide's beta-decay half-life reach <1 ms? Nucleus hydro elemon (talk) 11:55, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

It can, but extremally neutron rich nuclei tend to decay by emitting neutrons, which makes beta decay difficult to observe. Ruslik_Zero 12:08, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Many nuclides are known with beta decay half lives under a millisecond. Thulium-180, to pick one example, decays 100% by beta- decay, and has a half life of 0.3 ms. If you want to explore the landscape, the table of nuclides here [12] is a good place to start. Anything in light blue decays primarily by beta- decay, and the farther you get from the central "valley of stability" the shorter the half lives tend to become. PianoDan (talk) 04:54, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

For a number of nuclides, though – including ¹⁸⁰Tm – the half-life has not been measured directly and only lower bounds have been reported. But there's nothing in theory that prevents beta decay with a half-life shorter than 1 millisecond, aside from competition from other decay modes. The shortest I've seen in {{NUBASE2020}} is a half-life of 1.5±0.5 ms for ³⁵Na, though that is only 1$\sigma$ from the 1-ms boundary. ^Complex/_Rational 15:14, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

May 9

LED lighting dimmer switch

Can you tell me about this? Does it it exist yet?

I now have parrot bird with red eyes and if you turn the light on from dark to light it drops him on his back. So I can't use LED bulbs in his room. Because previously I used a dimmer to bring light up gradually. Can you tell me? Thank you. Iqbal. 146.200.107.107 (talk) 02:15, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes. They exist. I just went to the web site of my local hardware store, searched for "led dimmer switch" and found several. HiLo48 (talk) 02:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

There are also dimmable LED light bulbs that can be used with most types of dimmer.^[13]  --Lambiam 06:02, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

There are also led light bars that can be programmed for a gradually changing brightness and colour to simulate sunrise and sunset. Some even support simulating random clouds passing in front of the sun and the occasional thunderstorm with lightning. Aquarium lights tend to have such features. PiusImpavidus (talk) 12:13, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Note that dimmable LEDs don't dim the same way incandescents do.

When incandescents dim, a lower level of power continues to be continuously conducted through the filament. The lower power produces less light.

LEDs don't really have variable brightness in response to different levels of power the same way incandescents do. Instead, they're dimmed by flickering them on and off at an extremely high frequency. The frequency is too high for our eyes/brains to perceive the flickering; but since they're not on all the time, less total light is emitted.

In order to respond to a decrease in power this way, the LED bulb needs to have specialized hardware in its base. So you'll have to buy special "dimmable" LED bulbs. I've had very mixed experiences with these, fwiw, and some that are nominally dimmable don't dim well or at all. Others produce extremely unpleasant light at lower levels. -- Avocado (talk) 20:33, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Specifically, incandescent lights (is there anyone still using those? They've been banned in the EU for over a decade) can be dimmed by reducing the root-mean-square voltage over the filament. This lowers the light output, makes it redder and lowers the efficiency. Leds have constant colour and the brightness is controlled by electronically controlling the average current. Pulse-width modulation appears to be the simplest efficient way to control the average current. Dimmable led lights have some electronics that take the input voltage as a cue to change pulse width. Flicker is invisible to humans, but may appear when there's some beating with another periodic process of similar frequency (spinning things, cameras). A simple low-pass filter would eliminate the flicker. PiusImpavidus (talk) 07:54, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, you can still buy incandescents in the US. They keep partially walking back the bans. And they're still allowed for specialty purposes (like heat lamps and candelabras), and maybe at low wattages? I've also recently seen incandescent bulbs with purportedly higher efficiency than old ones being sold in places -- I'd be unsurprised if our regulations are weak. And maybe leftover inventory is still allowed to be sold? Small retailers I think get them under the table from ... somewhere. If you search a major hardware store's site, you'll find a selection still for sale. Here's what we've got on the topic. -- Avocado (talk) 13:17, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The flicker fusion threshold of birds is much higher than humans, up to 140 Hz (see this article). So a dimmed LED light that looks merely dim to us may appear to be flickering to a bird. I can imagine that that might be as unpleasant to a bird as a flickering light is to humans. Maybe some LEDs have a phosphorescent coating that absorbs and reemits the light after a delay, thus temporally buffering the light output, which might settle the parrot. Otherwise perhaps it is better to dull the light using a translucent screen or by reflecting the light off a surface. JMCHutchinson (talk) 11:43, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, even as a human (hello, fellow humans!), I find dimmed LEDs to produce a very unpleasant light. I wonder if we can detect the flickering subconsciously even if we consciously can't? There's a theory that we can with fluorescents (which flicker even at full brightness), causing a bit of dysphoria in flourescent-lit spaces. -- Avocado (talk) 13:05, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I have noticed that I can sometimes see flicker with peripheral vision that I can't when looking directly: aaand I see this is mentioned in the article. Flicker fusion threshold may also be of intersst.{The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.175.176 (talk) 14:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Ambivert vs. omnivert

Is there a difference between ambivert and omnivert, or are these the same? 2601:646:8082:BA0:24BD:2FE2:B975:68AE (talk) 06:13, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

• Saucedo, Kayla (29 January 2024). "Ambivert Vs. Omnivert". simplypsychology.org. Simply Scholar Ltd. --136.54.106.120 (talk) 16:08, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

OK, thanks! So, an ambivert is someone who's near the middle of the scale all the time, whereas an omnivert is someone who goes from full extrovert to full introvert and everything in between? 2601:646:8082:BA0:CD56:E11E:9CF:F450 (talk) 02:45, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Some researchers have questioned the validity of personality tests.^[14][15][16] I doubt that the validity of the specific labels ambivert and omnivert has been seriously studied; they may be pure pop-psych products. Also, even when valid, it can be questioned whether all this labeling isn't more harmful than beneficial.^[17]  --Lambiam 08:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

May 10

Insect repellent

Do all pyrethrin analogs have broad-spectrum insect repellent properties in less-than-lethal concentrations? 2601:646:8082:BA0:CD56:E11E:9CF:F450 (talk) 01:56, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

It says here that "Before the emergence of resistance, an early hut trial in The Gambia concluded that permethrin was the most repellent pyrethroid, followed by λ-cyhalothrin, deltamethrin, and lastly cypermethrin". This suggests that there must be some in the list of 29 examples in the pyrethroid article that are much worse repellents. I would guess that the stronger the odor, the better the repellent effect. Abductive (reasoning) 08:38, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Pyrethroids were designed to kill insects and are used, for example, to control malaria-carrying mosquitoes by treating bed-nets. In this and other agricultural applications, repellence is an unwanted property particularly if the non-lethal effect allows insect populations to build up resistance. There are, of course, compounds designed to act only as insect repellents, of which the best known are probably DEET and citronellal. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! So, not all of them, but many of the common ones -- which is great for me (they're painting my front door today, so I have to enforce a no-fly zone outside it :-( ) And yes, last time I've personally witnessed the repellent effect of 200 ppm deltamethrin against Papilio multicaudata (or maybe it was a large P. rutulus, but my money is on the former) and P. eurymedon, as well as multiple Apocrita species! (The repellent effect, indeed, is what I'm looking for here -- I don't care if the bugs survive or die, I just don't want them to fly into the house or get anywhere near me!) 2601:646:8082:BA0:59E2:271:87C3:F3E (talk) 14:07, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

April 26

duality vs. conjugacy

I noticed that Isbell conjugacy and Isbell duality have the same meaning. So, I would like to know the difference in meaning between duality and conjugacy in mathematics. Also, I found Category:Duality theories, but what is the field of mathematics called Duality theory? However, since Baez (2022) said that the Isbell conjugacy is an adjoints rather than a duality of the category, so I changed the category to Category:Adjoint functors. Thank you, SilverMatsu (talk) 03:54, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

The original duality occurs in projective geometry, see Duality (projective geometry). At some point people noticed that the axioms of the projective plane where the same (or equivalent) if you swapped the undefined terms "point" and "line". So any theorem in projective geometry can be transformed to a dual theorem by changing the roles of points and lines. The new theorem may simply be a restatement of the original theorem as in Desargues's theorem, but sometimes it's not as in Pappus's hexagon theorem. The result is that you often get two theorems for the price of one proof. You can define a dual category for a given category by reversing the arrows, but category theory was invented long after projective geometry so that's not the original meaning. You can also define the dual curve of a plane curve, the dual space of a vector space, the dual polytope of a polytope, etc. As far as I know there is no all-encompassing "theory of duality", just the custom of using "dual" to describe when mathematical objects seem to occur in pairs in some way. Calling something a dual usually implies that the dual of the dual is in some way identifiable with the original object, but this is not always required. For example the dual of a dual vector space is not identifiable with the original vector space unless it's finite dimensional. Duality does not always exist, for example there doesn't seem to be a useful concept for the dual of a finite group, though you can define one for abelian groups. And sometimes there is a duality that's not called that, for example cohomology can be viewed as the dual of homology. I don't think there is a formal distinction between a "dual" and a "conjugate", but usually a conjugate is the the result of applying an automorphism of order two. For example a complex conjugate is the result of applying the automorphism a+bi → a-bi. Again, this is more of a naming custom than a formal mathematical concept, and there is (apparently) some overlap. I'd say a "conjugate" is usually used when the two objects live inside the same structure, and "dual" is used when you're talking about two different structures. For example the dual of a plane curve lives in the dual of the plane in which the original curve lives. Category theory blurs the distinction between an object and a structure so I can see how the distinction is rather meaningless there. --RDBury (talk) 07:12, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for teaching me so kindly. I'm going to re-read some of the references, keeping in mind what you've taught me. --SilverMatsu (talk) 16:02, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Oblate spheroid

I thought of Googling orthographic projection ellipsoid and found these, did I interpret everything right?:

ν=a/(1-e²*(sinΦ)²)^1/2 (why not square root?) x=(ν+h)*cosΦ*cosλ y=(ν+h)*cosΦ*sinλ z=(ν*(1-e²)+h)*sinΦ This seems to be a simple spherical to Cartesian converter with latitudes (Φ) "massaged" so it's not slightly wrong (eccentricity²=0.00669437999014 so not much massaging). Then they convert that to topocentric Cartesian with a matrix I can't solve (now I know why galactic Cartesian's UVW!) but it seems like they also say surface points are U=ν*cosφ*sin(λ-λ_O) V=ν*(sinφ*cosφ_O-cosφ*sinφ_O*cos(λ-λ_O))+e²*(ν_O*sinφ_O-ν*sinφ)cosφ_O where _O means "of the topocentric origin". Did I get that right? If so then I can set an initial guess point at or about 0.25 circumference from the W-axis, use the formulae to find its U and V in "W-axis place"-centered coordinates and the test point is of course √(U²+V²) meters from the W-axis and the part of the ellipsoid with the most meters without being too far from the W-axis-test point plane is the limb of the Earth from infinite distance. The worst-case scenario for how spindly a pie the test points have to be in would be looking at ~the 45th parallel limb with the W-axis in the equator plane. The geocenter depth increases roughly quarter mile from 45.5N to 44.5N so ~56 meters poleward shortens the limb to W-axis line segment by 8 inches which is how much Earth curves in a mile. Azimuth accuracy needed increases "exponentially" with limb coordinate accuracy desired though so 10 miles accuracy would be a lot more than 10x easier than 1 mile. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 06:24, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

(Why not square root? Because the site may not have the facility to extend the radical bar over the whole expression.) —Tamfang (talk) 17:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

It's a pdf https://www.hydrometronics.com/downloads/Ellipsoidal%20Orthographic%20Projection.pdf since it has images couldn't they put a radical bar instead of 1/2th power? Anyway did I get it right, I never got to the part of school where they taught matrixes but maybe the stuff below is equivalent and not screwed up by my 100% truancy from late high school math conventions education. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

The text on these slides was obviously created using a word processing tool, and (apart from matters of taste) the choice of presentation may be affected by limitations of that tool. It all looks complicated, but actually the orthographic projection is as simple as it gets: map the 3D point $(x,y,z)$ to the 2D point $(x,y),$ "forgetting" one of the three spatial coordinates. For a sphere, one can use the transformation of spherical coordinates $(r,\theta ,\phi )$ to Cartesian coordinates $(x,y,z)$ (see the section Spherical coordinate system § Cartesian coordinates). A rotational ellipsoid requires an additional scaling of one of these coordinates. If the desired view of a 3D object is from an angle, rotate it in 3D space before projecting it. The general case is merely the chain of these by themselves standard, fairly simple transformations, of which spatial rotation is the most difficult. (It definitely helps to understand the notion of multiplying a 3×3 matrix and a 3D vector to get a new 3D vector; see Rotation matrix § In three dimensions.) A more natural perspective projection is only moderately more complex: one needs in general to also translate the object in 3D space, and the final mapping is given by $(x,y,z)\mapsto (x/z,y/z).$  --Lambiam 09:19, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I long wondered what that was, then wondered how they could simplify 2-D lists, then wondered if it was multiplying everything by everything like a 2-dimensional version of first-outside-inside-last. When I read matrix (math) I'll probably slap forehead at how few seconds it takes to teach and how simple it is compared to how hard it is to understand the hieroglyphics completely without a dictionary or Rosetta Stone. Similar to when I treated the options, futures, future options and sports betting odds in the newspaper as puzzles for 5-6 years and though I gave up and Googled at age ~18 even ten or twenty more years might've not been enough despite each of these conventions being easily teachable in seconds (i.e. USA has its own odds convention for non-horse sports, why was one team always -105 or less (minus many thousands if they're very likely to win) the other team was +100 to +many thousands (always somewhat less positive than the other was negative) but sometimes it's -115 -105 or PK which obviously meant pick 'em/50% chance. Completely stumped me what that means, if it was consistently how much a win profits per $100 or how much to win $100 I would've figured it out but it was just the bet per $100 bet without the $ sign, minus="you bet this not him". Very anticlimactic, like Googling how magicians drop a cup being filled by a cup without it falling (ROT13: Pyrneguernq) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:28, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Ah so that's what dot product is, draw a matrix aligned with the 2 matrices, multiply corresponding cells of equal outwardness, add all the shit in the product cell (which would be a lot for those matrices far bigger than 3x3). I was wondering what cells multiplied with what (everything times everything?) and how you smooshed 3x3 to 1x3. And adding real number matrices to each other and multiplying them by real numbers is way simpler than it looks! (though unneeded here). So I learned more than if I data entried into a matrix solver. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:45, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

April 27

"Distribution diagrams"

Distribution of (term node) sharing factor for a population of theorem proving runs

I'm trying to show the distribution characteristics of a numerical value in a (finite) population. To do so, I sort the values in ascending order, and then plot the feature values over the position of the value in the sorted sequence, as per the attached example. I'm probably not the first with that idea - is there a standard name for this kind of diagram? And/or is there a better way to visualise such data? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:36, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

If you switch axes (or turn your head sideways) this is the graph of a typical Cumulative distribution function. Perhaps it's better to call it a cumulative frequency instead of a distribution since you're plotting values observed and not the theoretical probability density, but the idea is the same. In particular, your graph resembles the second image shown in the article only turned sideways. The (usual) probability density is simply the derivative of the cumulative distribution function, so if you can estimate the derivative in your diagram that may give a better visual representation. The usual technique is to divide the range in to intervals, and then graph the number of occurrences in each interval. It seems to me that there might be a name in economics for the "sideways" version (enonomists seem to do a lot of things sideways), but I don't know what it would be. --RDBury (talk) 14:41, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

It is also customary, when plotting a cumulative distribution, to let the (now vertical) axis mark relative values in the range from 0 to 1 (or, equivalently and perhaps more commonly, from 0% to 100%) instead of an absolute ranking like from 1 to 7794 or whatever the sample size may be.  --Lambiam 15:06, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

See also Empirical distribution function and Quantile function. —Amble (talk) 00:13, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

May 3

Can Carmichael number be Lucas-Carmichael number?

Can Carmichael number be Lucas-Carmichael number?

Also, varying the signs, there are four different sequences for similar numbers:

1. squarefree composite numbers k such that p | k => p-1 | k-1
2. squarefree composite numbers k such that p | k => p-1 | k+1
3. squarefree composite numbers k such that p | k => p+1 | k-1
4. squarefree composite numbers k such that p | k => p+1 | k+1

the 1st sequence is Carmichael numbers, and the 4th sequence is Lucas-Carmichael numbers, but what are the 2nd sequence and the 3rd sequence? Are there any number in at least two of these four sequences? If so, are there any number in at least three of these four sequences? 61.224.150.139 (talk) 05:07, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

According to Lucas–Carmichael number, it is unknown whether there are any Lucas–Carmichael numbers that are also Carmichael numbers. GalacticShoe (talk) 05:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

2. The sequence is OEIS:A208728, and it starts $15,35,255,455,1295,2703,4355,6479,9215,\ldots$

3. The sequence is OEIS:A225711, and it starts $385,2737,6061,6721,17641,24769,25201,\ldots$

GalacticShoe (talk) 06:21, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Do all numbers in any of these four sequences except 15 and 35 have at least three prime factors? 61.224.150.139 (talk) 06:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes. You can show that:

1. If $p-1,q-1|pq-1$, then $p-1|q-1$ and $q-1|p-1$, implying $p-1=q-1\Rightarrow p=q$, which is disallowed.
2. If $p-1,q-1|pq+1$, then $p-1|q+1$ and $q-1|p+1$, implying either $p=q-2$ or $p=q+2$ (since they can't be equal.) The rest of this proof is left to the reader since I don't feel like writing it down, but based on the fact that $n|(n+2)^{2}\Leftrightarrow n|4$, it can be shown that $pq=15,35$ only.
3. If $p+1,q+1|pq-1$, then $p+1|q+1$ and $q+1|p+1$, implying $p+1=q+1\Rightarrow p=q$, which is disallowed.
4. If $p+1,q+1|pq+1$, then $p+1|q-1$ and $q+1|p-1$, implying $p\leq q-2$ and $p\geq q+2$, which is not possible.

GalacticShoe (talk) 07:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Are all of these four sequences infinite? If so, do all of these four sequences contain infinitely many terms with exactly 3 prime factors? Also, do all of these four sequences contain infinitely many terms which are divisible by a given odd prime number? 2402:7500:943:D56F:909B:9877:85C8:AFAA (talk) 02:02, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

@GalacticShoe: 49.217.60.214 (talk) 05:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

It is known that there are infinitely many Carmichael numbers, and it was recently (Wright, 2016) proven that there are infinitely many Lucas–Carmichael numbers. Unfortunately, I am unsure of the other two sequences, although Wright's paper might have more information for someone more mathematically literate than I. GalacticShoe (talk) 17:14, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

In order for a sequence to be in both 1. and 2., this would require that all prime factors $p|k$ satisfy both $p-1|k-1,p-1|k+1\Rightarrow p-1|2\Rightarrow p=2,3$. The only squarefree composite number that is only composed of $2,3$ is $6$ which can easily be seen to not be in either sequence. Similarly, 3. and 4. would require all prime factors $p|k$ to satisfy both $p+1|k-1,p+1|k+1\Rightarrow p+1|2$ which does not hold for any primes $p$. Since 1. and 2. cannot coexist, nor can 3. and 4., this means that no number occupies three or more of the four sequences. GalacticShoe (talk) 06:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Carmichael numbers are the numbers n such that $\lambda (n)$ divides n-1, where $\lambda (n)$ is the Carmichael lambda function (also called reduced totient function, since it is the reduced form of the Euler totient function) (sequence A002322 in the OEIS), and Lucas-Carmichael numbers should be the numbers n such that $\eta (n)$ divides n+1, and this $\eta (n)$ should be a reduced form of the Dedekind psi function, use the same reduce rule as the Carmichael lambda function to the Euler totient function (i.e. use the least common multiple in place of the multiplication for $\lambda (mn)$ and $\eta (mn)$ with coprime m, n), but I cannot even find this function in OEIS (it should start with (start from n=1) 1, 3, 4, 6, 6, 12, 8, 12, 12, 6, 12, 12, 14, 24, 12, 24, 18, 12, 20, 6, 8, 12, 24, 12, …) 2402:7500:943:D56F:909B:9877:85C8:AFAA (talk) 02:13, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Factorial & primorial on wikipedia

I know the factorial notation n!. Recently I cam across 5# which I was unfamiliar with. Not knowing its name, (primorial), it proved hard to track down. I searched in wikipedia and Google for "n#" which seemed like the best bet. Both converted it to "n" and reported stuff about the 14th letter of the alphabet. I then thought maybe it is related to factorial, so I looked at wikipedia factorial (n! redirects to factorial on wikipedia, so that works if/when you don't know the term "factorial".)

So is there a way of making n# findable on wikipedia? If so how? -- SGBailey (talk) 21:21, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Search for "#" and find Number sign#Mathematics. —Kusma (talk) 22:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

@SGBailey: "#" is WP:FORBIDDEN in page names. I'm actually impressed that a search on "#" gives Number sign as the only result. I examined redirects and saw the similar Unicode characters ﹟ and ＃. Thinking that it may help search, I have redirected N﹟ and N＃ to Primorial. The "go" feature of the search box ignores "#" in "n#" and goes directly to N, but if you force a real search on n# then the third or fourth (it varies) result for me is now "Primorial (redirect from N﹟)". PrimeHunter (talk) 19:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Excellent - Thank you. -- SGBailey (talk) 18:00, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

May 5

Origin of notion that there are ב sub 2 many "curves"

(Sorry for awkward heading -- I couldn't get it to put the ב before the 2 because of some strange artifact of RTL rendering.)

I've seen in several places the claim that, as there are $\aleph _{0}$ natural numbers and ${\mathfrak {c}}=2^{\aleph _{0}}$ (sometimes improperly given as $\aleph _{1}$) real numbers, there are some greater number of "curves" (sometimes given as f or, again improperly, $\aleph _{2}$). Most recently I was reminded of it at our article on George Gamow's (generally excellent) book One Two Three... Infinity.

The usual complaint about these popularizations, a very valid one, is that they uncritically give these cardinalities as aleph numbers in a way that works only if the generalized continuum hypothesis holds. But there's another, quite serious, problem: The claim that there are more "curves" than real numbers is correct only if you have an extremely liberal notion of what constitutes a "curve".

One reasonable notion is that a "curve" is the image of the real line or the unit interval under a continuous function from the reals to Rⁿ (or similar space), but there are only $2^{\aleph _{0}}$ such functions, and therefore the same number of curves.

My best guess is that someone was taking "curve" to mean the graph of an arbitrary function. But these are not typically curves according to any obvious natural-language meaning; they're just scattered points in the plane.

So, question, what's my question? Does anyone know where this idea originated? Was it Gamow, some other popularizer, multiple sources? And what if anything should we do to clean up the text in our One Two Three... Infinity article? I'm thinking an explanatory footnote but ideally I'd want a source directly speaking to the misconception. --Trovatore (talk) 20:58, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

This Math Stack exchange entry is relevant, but it doesn't seem to cover what you're asking. One problem is that the statement is true by Wikipedia standards; you could cite the book. You would need a reliable source, such as a published article somewhere, to say it was wrong/vague/misleading in order to state that in our article. At the moment the article points out that you'd need the GCH to say what's in the book, but I guess that's supposed to be "common knowledge" (at least among mathies). — Preceding unsigned comment added by RDBury (talk • contribs) 23:49, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

This article aims to classify various subsets of the function space 𝐹(ℝ,ℝ) from a constructive-mathematics perspective. The Introduction states: "mathematicians have made numerous attempts to focus on special subsets of this vast vector space (e.g., all real-valued continuous functions [5])", where the cited text is:

Pugh, C.C. Real Mathematical Analysis, 1st ed.; Undergraduate texts in mathematics; Springer Science Business Media: New York, NY, USA, 2002; pp. 223–225.

The latter is available as a pdf here. The article itself denotes this subset as 𝐶(ℝ,ℝ) and concludes in Proposition 4 that 𝐶𝑎𝑟𝑑(𝐶(ℝ,ℝ)) = 𝑐. But this is of course outside the paradise that Cantor created for you.  --Lambiam 07:09, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The reply given by a fellow Wikipedian to another Math Stack exchange question appears to imply that this also holds within the paradise.  --Lambiam 07:23, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Cardinality of the continuum § Sets with cardinality of the continuum also lists, without citation, "the set of all continuous functions from $\mathbb {R}$ to $\mathbb {R}$".  --Lambiam 07:30, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Discussed at Stack Exchange. Basically it's because a continuous function from $\mathbb {R}$ to $\mathbb {R}$ is uniquely determined by its values at rational points. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 16:11, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I feel a bit of sympathy for him making those mistakes but he should have had a mathematician read through that chapter. NadVolum (talk) 16:40, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, it's kind of the publisher's job to do fact checking. The statement was still in the 2012 Dover edition, so there have been multiple chances to fact check since the original 1947 publication. --RDBury (talk) 19:12, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

In general I'm skeptical of active attempts to use Wikipedia to correct readers' mathematical misconceptions — too much like righting great wrongs, and can easily become a POV magnet (like the old "What mathematics is not" section that once appeared in our mathematics article).

This one irks me, though, and tempts me to go back on that reasoning. I guess it's slightly personal, because I had internalized this bit about the cardinality of the set of curves, and (embarrassingly) didn't get it corrected till grad school. I had figured out for myself that there were only continuum-many analytic functions, because they're determined by the coefficients of the power series, but I conjectured that there were 2^𝔠 many C^∞ functions, and someone had to set me straight on that.

I think it's not just Gamow (whose book, I want to re-emphasize, is a big net positive). I've been trying to remember where else I might have seen it. I thumbed through Lilian Lieber's Infinity (which is a book that heavily influenced me) and didn't find it there. --Trovatore (talk) 20:00, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Just a guess, but the article mentions "What is Mathematics?" by Richard Courant and R. Robbins as a source, and of all the sources it seems the most mathematical. It's a "Text to borrow" on Internet Archive so if you create an account you can view it for free. --RDBury (talk) 10:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

There is a parallel in the treatment of cardinal numbers between Gamow and Courant & Robbins up to the point where the latter write (p. 85): "A similar argument shows that the cardinal number of the points in a cube is no greater than the cardinal number of the segment." After that, they muse briefly on the fact that this is counterintuitive since the correspondence does not preserve dimension, but that this is possible because it is not continuous. That ends their treatment of cardinal numbers. Earlier they note (p. 84): "As a matter of fact, Cantor actually showed how to construct a whole sequence of infinite sets with greater and greater cardinal numbers." They even sketch the proof, but do not pursue the question of mathematical objects of higher cardinality than the continuum that are of interest by themselves.  --Lambiam 13:21, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Digression: In fact it's challenging to come up with an object of larger cardinality that might naturally be considered by non-set-theorists. One possibility is βN, the Stone–Čech compactification of the natural numbers. I believe this is mentioned in an exercise in Folland's Real Analysis. --Trovatore (talk) 18:53, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

There's a relevant MathOverflow question about finding cardinalities beyond that of the continuum outside set theory. βN is given as an answer, but maybe the most elementary one offered is the set of all field automorphisms of C. But the answers do kind of make me agree with Gamow's surely intended point that it's difficult to find natural objects of size beyond 2^c, though not with his actual assertion. :) Double sharp (talk) 15:21, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

May 6

Find

Given x=3+2√2, find √x - 1/√x 171.79.74.205 (talk) 17:01, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

the contradictory part is that in the end, you get (√x-1/√x)^2 = 4, which will give you ±2; but √x which is √3+2√2 can be written as √(2-√1)^2 which is 2-√1 hence √x - 1/√x = -2 171.79.74.205 (talk) 17:10, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

"... can be written ... ". No, it can't. Not sure if this is an honest question or just trolling. --RDBury (talk) 18:43, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what they that is about but can I suggest that 1/(a+√b) = (a-√b)/{(a+√b)(a-√b)} might help? NadVolum (talk) 20:33, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Clarify, please. Do you mean:

• √x - (1/√x)
• (√x - 1)/√x
• √(x - 1)/√x
• something else...?

I'd suggest using LaTeX/MathJax code within <math>...</math> tags to format the expressions like ${\frac {{\sqrt {x}}-1}{\sqrt {x}}}$ etc. Please see WP:MATH for more info. --CiaPan (talk) 10:12, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry I misread the question and answered the wrong thing. But the square root of 3+2√2 is plus or minus 1+√2 and the original answer of ±2 is correct. NadVolum (talk) 11:07, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

√x is usually taken to mean the positive square root when x is positive. At least that's the notation used in Square root. That would make the answer 2. --RDBury (talk) 16:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Only if you say the square root, and nobody has said that. It also doesn't matter whether the original √2 is positive or negative. NadVolum (talk) 17:07, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

The issue here is not a lack of the definite article, but the meaning of the symbol ${\sqrt {^{~}}}.$ Conventionally, when $a$ is a real number, ${\sqrt {a^{2}}}$ denotes the same as $|a|,$ so ${\sqrt {2}}$ is definitely positive.  --Lambiam 18:15, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

The answer is 2 if the meaning of "√x−1/√x" is (√x) − (1/√x). But note that the question uses "√3+2√2" with the meaning √3 + 2√2.  --Lambiam 18:25, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Is this a homework problem? GalacticShoe (talk) 16:05, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Possibly but they tried to check their solution. NadVolum (talk) 16:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

May 8

What is the term for...

What is a proper term for an ordered set of values {a, b, c}, where each value can be independently selected from an allowed set for that value. Each allowed set may be different (but need not be distinct). For example:

• a from {a₁, a₂, a₃}
• b from {b₁, b₂}
• c from {c₁, c₂, c₃, c₄}

The set {a, b, c} could then have any of 24 possible values.

A more concrete example would be all upper/lower/mixed case variations of the word "dog" - "dog", "doG", "dOg", "dOG", "Dog", ....

I saw this called a permutation, which I'm pretty sure is not correct. I was thinking combination, but this doesn't quite seem to match the definition. Is there some standard term that is a good fit for this? Tom N talk/contrib 20:21, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

See Cartesian product. --Trovatore (talk) 20:33, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Come to think of it, though, the direct answer to your question would not be "Cartesian product" but rather "element of the Cartesian product". I don't know that there's a snappy one-word term for this. --Trovatore (talk) 20:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Collatz Conjecture

From time to time I noodle around the Collatz conjecture, in an attempt to bring my "special insight" into an apparently simple question that has stumped the best and the brightest. Most of the work I've seen seems to be based on trying to find a counter-example, which would render the conjecture null and void. They've tested every number up to some ridiculous number of trillions, so far without any luck, but they take the view, quite rightly, that a giga-zillion examples do not prove the general proposition, and the elusive counter-example could be just round the corner, so they keep searching, and trying new ways to attack the problem.

I've never seen any work that started at the opposite end: the number 1. That is, take 1, and ask "What could produce 1?": Answer: only 2. Repeat. This results in the series 1, 2, 4, 8, 16. Then it starts getting interesting, because 16 could be derived from either 5 or 32. (Being odd, 5 produces 16, because 3*5+1 = 16; and being even, 32 produces 16, because 32/2=16.) Then 5 and 32 can be investigated separately, and so on. The tree quickly sprouts new branches and it just gets more bushy the further we go.

The question in my mind is: Can it be shown that every integer must belong to this tree? If so, would that not prove the Conjecture? Or, if it could be shown that not all numbers are captured, even if we could not identify any specific examples, would that not disprove it?

Yours simplistically, Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:51, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Nice way of re-thinking the problem! I agree that if you could prove that the tree hits every positive integer, or that it doesn't, then you've solved the problem. I seriously doubt that it hasn't been tried, but it's a good example of things to try. --Trovatore (talk) 23:07, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

The specific approach is mentioned in Collatz conjecture § In reverse, which also has a diagram of the first 21 layers of the tree. A more parsimonious representation is achieved by considering that it suffices to show that all odd positive integers are reached. The onset of the odd tree is shown in the very first image in the article; a more extensive one, not shown in the article, is found here  --Lambiam 05:41, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, there you go. Thanks, Lambiam. (At least I should be given credit as the independent co-discoverer of this idea.) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:46, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Problem: Give positive integer n, how many natural density of positive integers reach n in their Collatz (3x+1) sequence? Of course, for n = 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, the natural density is 100%, but for n = 32 and 5, what will be the answers? For n divisible by 3, the answer is 0%, since only numbers of the form n*2^k reach n, and I think that the answer for 13 and 80 (which are the two numbers before 40) should be equal. 2402:7500:942:8E8F:A4D8:9B73:8E52:1E7B (talk) 07:47, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

May 10

About abundance and abundancy

Let s(n) = (sequence A001065 in the OEIS)(n) = sigma(n)-n = sum of divisors of n that are less than n

1. Give integer k, should there be infinitely many positive integers n such that s(n)-n = k?
2. Give positive rational number k, should there be infinitely many positive integers n such that s(n)/n = k?

2402:7500:942:8E8F:A4D8:9B73:8E52:1E7B (talk) 07:41, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The answer to 1. is no. If a number has is composite, then it is completely determined by its set of proper divisors (in particular, it is the product of the smallest prime factor and the largest proper divisor.) By definition $s(n)-n=m$ if and only if there is a partition of $m$ into unique numbers such that the elements of the partition are precisely the proper divisors of $n$. There are a finite amount of possible partitions of $m$, and thus a finite number of partitions which produce the proper divisors of some number $n$, and as long as the partitions in question are not just the set $\{1\}$ (i.e. the partition produced by primes), all such partitions/sets of proper divisors completely determine some unique $n$. Thus for $k\neq 1$ there are a finite number of $n$ satisfying $s(n)-n=m$. GalacticShoe (talk) 17:28, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The smallest values of $n$ such that $s(n)-n=m$ are given in OEIS: A070015, while the largest values of $n$ such that $s(n)-n=m$ are given in OEIS: A135244. GalacticShoe (talk) 17:32, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

April 26

Lockheed D-21 Operational History

The article for the Lockheed D-21 supersonic drone, along with most other sources I have read, states that only four operational missions were flown by this aircraft over China as part of a program called Senior Bowl, and none of the four were successful. Two crashed, one was lost when its parachute failed, and the fourth was destroyed when the Navy ship tasked with recovering the film capsule accidentally ran over it.

However, I have recently come across a book which claims that two of the operational D-21 missions were successfully recovered. The book contains an excerpt of an interview with a Lt. Col Alfred Crane, who worked with classified spy satellites and drones during the Cold War, in which Crane described processing two D-21 film capsules that had been recovered after missions over China.

I have been able to independently affirm through other sources that the book's author, Lloyd Spanberger, was involved with developing film from spy planes and satellites at Westover Air Reserve Base during the Cold War, so his accounts are likely genuine. If this information is true, it would require a major re-write of the D-21's Wikipedia article, but without anything more to go on I do not want to make any changes yet. So what should I-- and Wikipedia as a whole-- do? 135.135.227.26 (talk) 02:04, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

If the book were regarded as a Reliable source, you could at least include text to the effect that "According to the book . . . [etc.]"

However, the ISBN (as indicated here) shows that it is published through XLIBRIS, a self-publishing platform, and therefore by the author with no editorial control. Even if other sources seem to confirm that Lloyd R. Spanberger was indeed involved in affairs as you state, and that the other (admittedly copious) details of the book's co-contributors check out, a self-published work is going to be hard to affirm as 'Reliable'.

Spanberger's accounts may be genuine, but an individual's value judgement is not good enough for Wikipedia. To what extent have you considered that intelligence operations notoriously surround themselves with false information to cover up secrets (such as real sources of information being still-undiscovered foreign agents), and that the book, or even Spanberger's or Crane's existence, may be a manufactured part of such an effort? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 03:35, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what purpose fabricating such information would serve, though. The book was published in 2014, and all official US government records pertaining to the D-21's operational history were declassified in 1994. While I stress that this is only my personal assessment, I don't see what the author would have to gain from falsifying such information 20 years after it was already made public and anyone could look it up and a coverup would no longer be necessary.

I am aware of Wikipedia's policy regarding reliable sources, and that this book currently does not meet the standards of one. However, all of the other information contained in the book is factual, covering such things as the failed tests of the digital photography system on the SAMOS satellite and the development of an infrared camera for the SR-71. For this one piece of information to be the exception would be unusual to say the least. While I will refrain from adding it to the article for the time being, I feel like there is no reason not to take this information at face value. 135.135.227.26 (talk) 05:05, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

On the one hand, Spanberger – who I'm sure does exist! My caveat was a hypothetical regarding the inherent unreliability of information defense and espionage spheres – might be considered a subject expert; on the other, the self-published nature of the book throws up caution signals – why did a mainstream publisher not take it up?

On reflection, I suggest you do use and cite it, but ensure you hedge the material with "according to Spanberger", "Crane states" and the like, and make the self-published nature of the source explicit. At worst, some other editor will revert and you can discuss it further, per WP:BRD. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 16:45, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I reached out to the Seattle Museum of Flight, which has a D-21 on display, and asked them for their opinion on the material. They considered it to be potentially reliable. 135.135.227.26 (talk) 21:03, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I've taken the plunge and made the edits to the article. 135.135.227.26 (talk) 02:28, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

What is Pierre Poilievre's stance on VIA HFR?

Did Poilievre state whether or not he would continue to support VIA HFR? Félix An (talk) 02:45, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

According to the Conservative Party of Canada's official policy platform (see here): "We support rail infrastructure across Canada, including innovative high-speed passenger rail where warranted. This would ease conflicts between passenger and freight trains, reduce highway congestion and GHG emissions, and promote national unity and inter-provincial trade." and "The Conservative Party supports the capacity expansion of existing rail-based transportation infrastructure across Canada in order to secure tidewater port access and increase international market access for Canadian manufacturing, processing, agricultural, and natural resource exports." These can be found in paragraphs 66 and 67 of the linked document. Xuxl (talk) 13:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Of course, a non-specific statement like that does not necessarily mean they would support this particular project. --142.112.220.50 (talk) 03:47, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Columbus

Our articles on Columbus say little is known about his early life and that his original voyaging journals have been lost. This seems odd to me, considering his oversized role in history. What are the current explanations for these two missing components of his life? Viriditas (talk) 20:46, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

No one bothered to write it down at the time? Blueboar (talk) 20:54, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't really add up. We have extensive historical records going back thousands of years. But suddenly, the biography and journals of one of the most influential explorers in European history goes missing. Viriditas (talk) 20:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

But he was only widely understood to have been influential some time after the fact. At the time, he was just another adventurer, with a murky past, operating with a degree of secrecy to protect both his own and his patrons' benefit, in an era where everybody from personal to State level was trying to steal their rivals' trade secrets.

Historical records may be extensive, but they are very, very far from being comprehensive. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 21:10, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. I think the secrecy component explains the missing journals and biographical backstory. Can you recommend any good sources that go deeper into this? Viriditas (talk) 21:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Nevermind, I see it is discussed at origin theories of Christopher Columbus. Viriditas (talk) 21:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Almost nothing is known of Verrazzano's early life, who discovered New York Harbor April 27th, 1524 (April 17th as Gregorian calendar not invented yet). It's not even known if he really was eaten by tropical cannibals or not. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 04:49, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

But suddenly, the biography and journals of one of the most influential explorers in European history goes missing. What do you mean by "suddenly"? I don't think this is a case of important historical documents "suddenly" "going missing". More likely they weren't considered important enough at the time to preserve. Young Columbus wasn't an important person at all, and the importance of older Columbus (and his voyages) wasn't understood until later. Iapetus (talk) 09:18, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Giving legal advice

Legal advice says the following:

In the common law systems it is usually received from a solicitor, barrister or lawyer; in civil law systems it is given by advocates, lawyers or other professionals (such as tax experts, professional advisors, etc.).

Does this mean that in your typical common-law jurisdiction, advice from a tax expert (or other non-lawyer expert in a field touching on the law) is not considered legal advice, while comparable advice from a comparable expert in a civil-law jurisdiction is considered legal advice? Is it a matter of definition of "legal advice"? I would expect professional advice from such experts to be comparable from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, regardless of a jurisdiction's legal system. Nyttend (talk) 21:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

In general, only qualified lawyers (who may locally be known by another term), admitted to practice in a given jurisdiction, can represent a client in a court case in that jurisdiction, whether the system is common law or civil law. Based on the cited references, giving legal advice (as defined in our article) while not a legal professional (a "nonlawyer") is considered "unauthorized practice of law" in many or perhaps all US jurisdictions. I don't know to what extent this is the case in other jurisdictions. Advice on how to file one's tax return is not by itself legal advice.  --Lambiam 16:52, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Also, I think the terminology used is a bit clunky. Here in the UK there are "solicitors" and "barristers" which are roles you attain after a specified amount of study and experience: whereas "lawyer" is a generic term for anyone practicing law. So it's wrong to say "solicitors, barristers or lawyers" because solicitors and barristers are lawyers. And there is no mention of notaries public, nor of legal executives. Conversely, the USA is also a common law jurisdiction* - probably the world's biggest - and there they do not (so far as I know) have solicitors, but the favoured term is "attorneys", a word which doesn't appear in the quote at all. AndyJones (talk) 12:42, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

*Correcting my comment, the USA is - of course - a collection of jurisdictions most of which are classified as common law. AndyJones (talk) 12:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

April 27

Types of Religions

I am looking for a list of types of religion. Along the lines of: monotheism, polytheism, animism, natrualism, etc. I'm trying to find a good starting point for looking into these lesser known types of religion. However, all I can find are lists of specific religions or disconnected pages of types with no single page that lists all of them. I remember there used to be such a page, years ago, when I previously looked this information up, but for the life of me, I cannot find it. Phoenix-Inanis (talk) 15:29, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Check the category called Philosophy of religion. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:34, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

The category Religious faiths, traditions, and movements and its subcategories may also be helpful.  --Lambiam 17:04, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, I'll look into these! Sorry for the late reply, I thought I would've gotten an email notification. Phoenix-Inanis (talk) 01:52, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not send email notifications. --Viennese Waltz 11:56, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

You can subscribe to a page section, and/or add the page to your watchlist, and then set your Preferences to get an email notification. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. The last time I checked, that functionality wasn't available. Mind you, that was over 10 years ago. --Viennese Waltz 06:50, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

April 29

Understanding Foreign funding of US universities

Recently came across conflicting mentions about Foreign funding of US universities in some media reports. Didn't find enough info this WP article section. Wish to understand foreign funding issues in brief. Bookku (talk) 04:59, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

That's about funding by U.S. government entities. What you want is Qatari involvement in higher education in the United States... AnonMoos (talk) 17:04, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I came across some news reports about students protesting against University funding by Israel too. Idk verifiability. But seems various overseas countries interested in influencing US academics. Bookku (talk) 03:19, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The Israel-relevant articles will have titles such as "Academic boycott of Israel" (I'm really not interested in looking them up), and will not be about funding in the same sense as Qatar. A movement headed by people such as Mona Baker, who received the rare distinction (for a pure academic) of being condemned by the UK Prime Minister and Parliament, yet who some people on Wikipedia still claim is a reliable source... AnonMoos (talk) 06:55, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

White House Correspondents' dinner by both POTUS and VP

Hi. I was watching the White House Correspondents' dinner[18] and noticed that both the POTUS and VP were there.

I've only watched a few of these dinners, and to my (very poor) recollection, none of them both the POTUS and VP attend. It was explained to me that this is due to security concerns.

1. Were there another White House Correspondents' dinner in the past 30 years where both the POTUS and VP attended?

2. Were there some sort of past security policy (albeit a flexible one) where both the POTUS and VP attending was discouraged?

3. Does the entertainer get advanced notice of the VP's attendance? In a few of the previous dinners, some of the jokes were based on the VP not present. For example: "Is [VP's name] still Vice President? Cuz' if not, I'm down to like: 'Good night and God bless America.'" Some of these joke wouldn't work if the VP was there. OptoFidelty (talk) 17:13, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

See article Designated survivor... AnonMoos (talk) 18:22, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• 1) This article (not sure how reliable) says: "it'll be the first time in seven years that a president, vice president and both spouses are each present at the star-studded event". That can't have been 2017 because Donald Trump chose not to attend, but this article has a picture of VP Joe Biden arriving at the 2016 dinner, when President Obama was also present and spoke. Alansplodge (talk) 21:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• 3) Don't know, but a good comedian can improvise. Alansplodge (talk) 21:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Nixon leaving White House

Nixon leaving the White House

This might be a bit of a stupid question, but I have to ask it anyway. Here is the famous photograph of Richard Nixon leaving the White House after the Watergate scandal.

Which one is Richard Nixon? JIP | Talk 19:13, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

On the right with hand stretched out. Look for the famous nose. Johnbod (talk) 19:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

User:JIP, are you familiar with the annotation feature on Commons? I've now annotated both presidents and their wives. Nyttend (talk) 19:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your replies. Yes, I am familiar with the annotation feature. Thanks for the annotations. JIP | Talk 20:15, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't see the anotations. However, Johnbod has it right, and facing him is Gerald Ford. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Look the image up directly in Commons. The annotations don't show on Wikipedia. JIP | Talk 19:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not seeing them on Commons either. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:26, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I am. When my mouse pointer is on the picture, yellow boxes appear around some of the heads. Move the mouse pointer into a yellow box and the name of the owner of the head appears. DuncanHill (talk) 14:33, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Aha! So that's the trick. Thank you! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:05, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I guess those beyond them are the Nixon daughters and their husbands (Cox, Eisenhower)? —Tamfang (talk) 23:26, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

• The fact that there are people who don’t instantly recognize Nixon makes me realize… God, I’m getting old! Blueboar (talk) 15:46, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

It beats the alternative! DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 23:08, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Fifty years, you know … (I was a bit startled when I first found myself saying “I haven't … in fifty years”!) —Tamfang (talk) 23:28, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

But why is he trying to shake hands with Lenin? --Trovatore (talk) 23:38, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

There must be a joke in there somewhere. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it's that Lenin and Ford had similar hairlines. —Tamfang (talk) 23:29, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

There's not much point in explaining a joke, but it wasn't really a joke anyway, exactly. Ford in profile just made me think of Lenin. The hairline was part of it, but also the jaw, and a shadow that lets you half-see a beard that isn't there, but from the photo itself you could think it was. --Trovatore (talk) 19:00, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

April 30

Volunteer (naval rank)

The Master's mate article says:

In 1824 two further grades were also introduced, consisting of master's assistants and second-class volunteers. These corresponded to midshipmen and first-class volunteers respectively in the executive line. These corresponded to midshipmen and first-class volunteers respectively in the executive line.

I tried to find *any* mention on-wiki regarding the "First Class Volunteer" and "Second Class Volunteer" ranks. The nearest I could come up with was Volunteer-per-order. But that article suggests that the rank was phased out in 1732, which is *long* before 1824.

Does anyone know more about the First-Class and Second-Class Volunteer ranks, or have a decent (ideally less than book-length) source with more information? I'd also be grateful for information about the "Master's Assistant" rank mentioned in the Master's Mate article, fwiw. -- Avocado (talk) 01:11, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

If anyone finds information that can be added to Master's mate, it should also be added to Passed midshipman, which mentions the first- and second-class volunteers. Nyttend (talk) 06:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

There were the Royal Naval Coast Volunteers and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. -- AnonMoos (talk) 07:02, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! Those articles say those orgs were instituted in 1853 and 1859, though. What would a first-class/second-class volunteer be between 1824 and 1853? -- Avocado (talk) 12:19, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I have asked for assistance from the sages at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history. Alansplodge (talk) 14:50, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Ooh, good call -- thank you! -- Avocado (talk) 16:59, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I came across these volunteer ranks myself just a few days ago. I am still trying to understand them. However, if you search in en:s:A Naval Biographical Dictionary for "Fst.-Cl. Vol" and "Sec-Cl. Vol" you will find entries for many officers that started at these ranks. From Hill To Shore (talk) 17:04, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I found some sources on First Class Volunteers! Most of them even look reliable:

• https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help/trafalgarancestors/glossary.htm: "This was the rating that replaced boy first class and was given to 'young gentlemen' training to become officers."

My reaction: "boy first class" looks like it'll be a difficult term to research online!

• https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095548366: glossary entry for "captain's servant"

The name that used to be given to boys entering the Royal Navy at about the age of 12, before they became midshipmen. The custom of allowing post-captains to take such ‘servants’ into their ships derived from the older apprenticeship system. Such servants or followers did no menial work since they were aspiring officers. They were accommodated in the gunroom under the general supervision of the gunner before graduating to the midshipmen's mess in the cockpit, and thence on promotion to the lieutenants' wardroom. The name was changed in 1796 to volunteer, first class, boys of the second and third classes not aspiring to the rank of commissioned officers. Unlike King's Letter boys, who were nominated by the Admiralty, a captain's servant was a personal follower of a post-captain, taken on board to oblige relatives or friends.

• https://repository.lsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3355&context=gradschool_theses: an entire master's thesis on the topic that I haven't yet dug into besides a keyword search and skimming a couple paras, but will probably be an excellent source and might help turn up further sources
• https://academic.oup.com/histres/article/94/266/806/6375003?login=false on a tangentially related topic turns up this footnote:

On young gentlemen, see S. A. Cavell, Midshipmen and Quarterdeck Boys in the British Navy, 1771–1831 (Woodbridge, 2012); S. Cavell, ‘A social history of midshipmen and quarterdeck boys in the Royal Navy, 1761–1831’ (2 vols., unpublished University of Exeter Ph.D. thesis, 2010); and Wilson, Social History, ch. 1.

"Wilson, Social History" appears to refer to: E. Wilson, A Social History of British Naval Officers, 1775–1815 (Woodbridge, 2017)

I'll plan to read that thesis and start mining these for a little more info for our articles. And would of course appreciate any collaboration if others are also interested.

Do bear in mind that a masters thesis does not usually count as a reliable source, per WP:SCHOLARSHIP "Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence." Gog the Mild (talk) 18:23, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for that warning! That does put a damper on things, I guess.

Does it make a difference if what I'm planning to add based on the thesis a) isn't particularly controversial, and b) is provided in the thesis as general background information (supported by other sources that I don't have direct access to) rather than something the thesis itself is attempting to prove? -- Avocado (talk) 20:50, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I may also be back with more questions later about Second Class Volunteers, and ... Third Class, which that Oxford source suggests also existed.

Maybe someone else can access the sources that aren't online?

Also ... opinions on where this info should live? Maybe expand Young gentlemen and add some cross-links with the other articles already mentioned? -- Avocado (talk) 21:34, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Bazar de la Charité fire again

I'd never heard of the Bazar de la Charité fire before seeing the thread above. In the article's list of victims, we see:

Marie du Quesne (1857–1897), Viscountess Bonneval, whose husband had been a member of the Chamber of Deputies of the Third French Republic from 1885 to 1889

What was her husband's name, and do we have an article about him? (Obviously he passes WP:POLITICIAN.) There's nothing at Bonneval, Bonneval (surname), Quesne, or Duquesne, and I couldn't find anything with a Google search. Nyttend (talk) 06:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Likely fr:Anatole-Fernand de Bonneval, see also the official data sheet. His main achievement in the chamber was to never step on the podium... [19] --Wrongfilter (talk) 08:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

heck, I can do that. —Tamfang (talk) 23:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

And while we're at it, here's the marriage licence (the page on the right, signatures overleaf). --Wrongfilter (talk) 08:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

This looks to be the main source for the French article: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k83707p/f414.item Chuntuk (talk) 14:39, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Marie was the daughter of Rear-Admiral Joseph Marie Lazare Duquesne (1804-1854) and a descendant of the more famous Admiral Abraham Duquesne (1610-1688). She had two children, a son Bernard and a daughter Aliette, the latter dying in the fire with her mother.

From Bulletin de la Société héraldique etʹgenéalogique de France: Volume 10 (1897), p. 287.

This genealogy page about Marie gives her date of birth as 30 May 1852, rather than 1857 quoted in our article, which would be three years after her father's death and rather a long pregnancy. It also gives her father's middle name as Balthazar instead of Marie Lazare - perhaps due to inscrutable French handwriting.

Alansplodge (talk) 15:11, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

"Ce grand bébé qu'on appelle le Français" [20], making him hard to work properly the pen and ink --Askedonty (talk) 21:42, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

May 1

"The Tay Bridge Disaster" really that bad of a poem?

People say "The Tay Bridge Disaster" by William McGonagall is a bad poem, but is there any explanation as to why? Our article just says in a conclusary fashion that it has been "lampooned by critics as one of the worst poems in the English language." The source that supports the claim just calls McGonagall a writer of "juvenile, arrhythmic poems", but there's nothing on the poem itself, and the source isn't really a poetry analysis source anyways. I was able to find one source that says "parallelism must be seen to have arisen accidentally. Rhyme that appears forced runs the risk of being subject to negative evaluation." Any help? I don't think we have an article on parallelism. Therapyisgood (talk) 01:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Well for starters, most of it doesn't scan; where is the metre? Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:06, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

For continuation, even this defence of McGonagall admits that bathetic rhymes are characteristic of his style. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 10:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Also see the Poetry Foundation's definition of doggerel, which describes it as "traditionally characterized by clichés, clumsiness, and irregular meter", and illustrates this with an excerpt from the Tay Bridge Disaster. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 10:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

This biographical introduction to McGonagall's works says:

He shared many of the faults of Mr Pooter, being pompous, self-important, humourless and the butt of jokes he didn't understand...

From the day divine inspiration to write poetry descended upon McGonagall, he was addicted to rhyme and the same rhyme pairs would often appear in his writing - if a poem involved the queen, she'd be somewhere "green" or "wondrous to be seen”. Although rhyming was a compulsion with McGonagall, scansion was completely alien to him. The long rambling lines, ending with that vital rhyme, are the most recognisable feature of his work and sometimes reach prodigious proportions...

The third element in McGonagall's poetic technique - or lack of it - is his extraordinary ability to puncture whatever pathos he may have been able to create by the addition of some extraneous fact or an inappropriate phrase...

Hunt, Chris (2007). "Introduction". William McGonagall: Collected Poems. Edinburgh: Birlinn Limited. ISBN 978-1841584775.

Alansplodge (talk) 11:03, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Alan's quote is addressing the same point as the one about "parallelism", in the source you found. Parallelism being apparently used as a general term for rhyme, alliteration, consonance, assonance etc. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:11, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

In McGonagall's defence:

There is little meaningful distinction between McGonagall's style and content and that of a hawker of street verse in 1830s or 1860s Scotland... other than McGonagall's far greater reputation and longevity.

Blair, Kirstie (2019). Working Verse in Victorian Scotland: Poetry, Press, Community. Oxford University Press. p. 178. ISBN 978-0198843795.

Alansplodge (talk) 11:35, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

"being...the butt of jokes he didn't understand." Ah yes, the "fault" of every bullied child. Anyway, writing any poetry is hard, even "bad" poetry is better than most of us will ever achieve, and memorable poetry is beyond even most professional poets. DuncanHill (talk) 11:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The fact that he's included in a global encyclopedia would undoubtedly please him no end. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Having read the poem, I'd say the obvious reasons would be that it's really inconsistent in structure: inconsistent line length, inconsistent verse length, and inconsistent rhyming pattern. It also has a lot of repetition (for example "on the last Sabbath day of 1879" is used four times), but even that repetition isn't consistent enough to be part of the structure of the poem. Iapetus (talk) 09:31, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Given the question is inherently subjective, I'm treating as such to whatever extent my heart desires: it's very bad. It's not bad for its use of stock poetic conventions without demonstrating any understanding of why they're used, while simultaneously just, failing, to actually use them successfully. It's bad because it's boring and says nothing. Given it's longer than a few stanzas, I would expect a poem either to "tell a story" in the most abstract sense through elements like mood, perhaps by varying or elaborating upon said elements. Here, no connections are made that run deeper than the lines on which the words themselves appear. It just sounds like someone boring is talking to me about the boat, and there's no attempt to explore anything at any depth or breadth. Boat. Boat!

Boat. Remsense诉 23:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I've always particularly enjoyed that branch of literary criticism which involves displaying the critic's complete failure to read the criticised work. There ain't a boat in it. DuncanHill (talk) 23:54, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

If I said I meant to type "bridge" four times in a row but failed all four times because I was distracted, that sounds like an obvious lie and you wouldn't believe me. So, I'll just take the L on this one. Remsense诉 23:59, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what "take the L" means. In your defence, boats and bridges do perform the same function, so your confusion could be excused. DuncanHill (talk) 00:04, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

"Take the loss". The silver lining here is that my claimed QWERTial aphasia was probably as interesting as "The Tay Boat Disaster". Remsense诉 00:08, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I did that writing in my Dad's Filofax the other day. I said "I'll visit on Friday", and in the Friday section I wrote "Friday", instead of "Duncan". DuncanHill (talk) 00:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I've just read the poem for the first time. Is he trying to rhyme Edinburgh with sorrow? And if so, how is he expecting each to be pronounced? Iapetus (talk) 09:18, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

It seems to mostly work, assuming both end with [rə] like I'd expect. Remsense诉 10:18, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Having past connections with Dundee, I'm very familiar with McGonagall (who remains a local celebrity there) and his 3-volume Poetic Gems collection is almost within arms' reach as I type.

One of McGonagall's positive features is that he documented (in appallingly bad verse) many events that were at the time locally newsworthy but which otherwise have faded from memory. Generally, he is faithful to facts as reported in the local press at the time, and the incongruity of poetising often mundane events is one source of the amusement his works afford.

In latter years it has been suggested that his apparent poetic ineptitude may have been deliberate, but more likely he genuinely lacked any literary discernment, something of a handicap in a Shakespearian actor and a self-proclaimed 'poet and tragedian.' {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 05:45, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

See, that's neat. To be clear, even bad boring art is worth an awful lot sometimes. :) Remsense诉 06:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Declaration of interest here - I am the Chris Hunt who's introduction to McGonagall's collected works is quoted above! The wiki answer to the question is that it's a bad poem because reliable sources say it is. Having read this poem in public on several occasions, I can tell you it's a great poem to perform live - but only if you do it for laughs, which I'm sure was not the intention of the original author. Chuntuk (talk) 14:54, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Chuntuk, I have used your learned text as a reference for a new section; The Tay Bridge Disaster#Criticism. I hope this satisfies Therapyisgood's original inquiry. Thanks all and feel free to edit if my modest efforts are lacking in any respect. Alansplodge (talk) 16:05, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Why ♭ seems be more popular than ♯ ?

e.g. in the circle of fifths:

• D
• A & G
• E & C
• B & F
• F♯ & B♭
• C♯ & E♭
• G♯/A♭ (they are the same note, but why called A♭ more often than G♯?)

also, in the diatonic scales:

• C major/a minor (0)
• G major/e minor (1♯) & F major/d minor (1♭)
• D major/b minor (2♯) & B♭ major/g minor (2♭)
• A major/f♯ minor (3♯) & E♭ major/c minor (3♭)
• E major/c♯ minor (4♯) & A♭ major/f minor (4♭)
• B major/g♯ minor (5♯) & D♭ major/b♭ minor (5♭)
• F♯ major/d♯ minor/G♭ major/e♭ minor (6♯/6♭) (they are the same diatonic scale, but why G♭ major/e♭ minor (6♭) is used more often than F♯ major/d♯ minor (6♯)?

125.230.0.219 (talk) 03:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

G♯ and A♭ are the same key on most current keyboards, but they are not the same note in all tuning systems. In Pythagorean tuning, they are separated by a Pythagorean comma.  --Lambiam 06:38, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I assume that the OP is mostly interested in Western common practice—12TET, normative music theory etc.

Let's look at the notes of F♯ major alongside those of G♭ major:

F♯, G♯, A♯, B, C♯, D♯, E♯

G♭, A♭, B♭, C♭, D♭, E♭, F

They're both equally pesky if E♯ or C♭ make you uncomfortable, of course. No double-sharps or double-flats which disqualify key signatures like G-flat minor, which requires B𝄫, E𝄫, as well as F♭. So that's not why.

I would surmise part of the reason why is that G♭ major is simply closer to other keys with which it may relate in a given piece, suite, etc. It's much more common to play around in the darkness of A♭ and D♭ major than worry about B major being annoying for everyone but the guitarist. B♭ minor is also a rather common key, because many instruments are tuned to B♭. Remsense诉 11:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

This means in the circle of fifths, the 7 “normal” white keys (A, B, C, D, E, F, G), and the black keys, the two black keys which are “next to” the white keys in the circle of fifths, we use F# and Bb instead of Gb and A#, since F# and Bb are “next to” the white keys in the circle of fifths, i.e, they have distance of 1 to the “normal” white keys (B and F, respectively), but Gb and A# have distance of 5 to the “normal” white keys in the circle of fifths, similarly, C# and Eb both have distance of 2 to the “normal” white keys in the circle of fifths, but Db and D# have distance of 4 to the “normal” white keys in the circle of fifths, thus we use C# and Eb instead of Db and D#, but for the black key G#/Ab, this key is the “farest” key to the white keys in the circle of fifths, both G# and Ab have distance of 3 to the “normal” white keys in the circle of fifths, but why Ab is used more often than G#? 61.224.150.139 (talk) 03:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

This question looks like the reverse of a question on this same reference desk that I asked on February 21, 2022. It was about why some people think it's okay to avoid flats and just use sharps in place of their flat enharmonics. Please check it out. Georgia guy (talk) 11:59, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Link: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 February 21 § Rules for how to name black keys in music.  --Lambiam 14:30, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

You've missed out mentioning C♯ major/A♯ minor, and C♭ major/A♭ minor (7♯/7♭). Three of these keys are well represented in the musical canon (including examples by Bach and Beethoven; see Overview of compositions with 7 accidentals), although for reasons I've never quite understood, A♯ minor is disfavoured almost to the point of invisibility. But not quite, as I've found a few examples in my travels (more than are shown in the linked list). Maybe your omission of these 7-accidental keys was a sort of mental bridge too far for you, and maybe that also explains why many people prefer flat keys over sharps. The physical shape of a battalion of ♯ signs might seem too brutal and threatening, compared with the softer, rounder, more swan-like ♭ signs. That's my theory. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

@JackofOz: Regarding A♯ minor, I have a theory. C♯ major and A♭ minor make sense to use directly, because their parallel keys are normal keys with fewer accidentals, and using the seven-accidental keys in these cases avoids enharmonic shifting between parallel major and minor. C♭ major at least makes sense because of harp tuning, but you'll also notice it's significantly less common than C♯ major and A♭ minor. Meanwhile A♯ minor has neither driver pushing it into use, so it remains an extreme rarity. Double sharp (talk) 05:36, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

7# and 7b are rarely used, we usually use 5b in place of 7# and use 5# in place of 7b, since they are the same note, but 6# and 6b are also the same note. 61.224.150.139 (talk) 03:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, for the theoretical keys (8# and 8b), all of F-flat major, G-sharp major, D-flat minor have their own articles, but why E-sharp minor is only a redirect? (♭ seems be more popular than ♯) 61.224.150.139 (talk) 03:48, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

This thread suffers from the fact that nobody has bothered to verify that the premise of the question is actually correct. What makes you believe flats are more frequently used than sharps? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

There are two meanings of "popular", the word the OP used in his question. In the sense of liked or preferred, I can vouch that many people in my experience report a greater ease when playing pieces in flat keys compared with sharp keys. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:45, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

The bit at the very end is definitely correct - Eb minor is more common than D# minor as a key signature because the accidentals are simpler (the raised 6th and 7th are C-natural and D-natural, as opposed to B-sharp and C-double-sharp). Gb major might be preferred by analogy, as any piece in a major key from the classical and romantic periods tends to spend some time in the relative minor. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 21:03, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, both of the natural major and the natural minor have no additional sharp/flat, i.e. the natural F# major and the natural D# minor have “just” this 6 sharps, and the natural Gb major and the natural Eb minor have “just” this 6 flats, but if you use the harmonic scale or the melodic scale, you will have additional sharps/flats, harmonic major has an additional flat in the 6th note, harmonic minor has an additional sharp in the 7th note, melodic major (descending) has two additional flats in the 6th and 7th notes, melodic minor (ascending) has two additional sharps in the 6th and 7th notes, thus:

	natural	harmonic	melodic
F# major	6#	5#	6# (ascending) / 4# (descending)
D# minor	6#	5#, 1##	7#, 1## (ascending) / 6# (descending)
Gb major	6b	5b, 1bb	6b (ascending) / 7b, 1bb (descending)
Eb minor	6b	5b	4b (ascending) / 6b (descending)

and the F# major together with the D# minor, and the Gb major together with the Eb minor, will use the same number of sharps/flats. 61.224.150.139 (talk) 03:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

• Fortunately, IMSLP uses software like Wikipedia, so that entries can be categorised in many ways, including by key signature. Like WP, it depends on volunteers actually doing the work, so who knows whether the results of any analysis are mathematically meaningful. But, fwiw, here's what I found:

  There are 50,618 pieces in flat keys, compared with only 39,190 in sharp keys. Also, 17,701 in neutral keys (predominantly C major, 73%).

  80,554 pieces in major keys, compared with only 26,955 in minor keys.

• Looking at numbers of accidentals in key signatures, there's an unsurprising preference for fewer as compared to more:

  Neutral: keys 17,701

  1 accidental: 33,276

  2 accidentals: 24,391

  3 accidentals: 19,205

  4 accidentals: 9,027

  5 accidentals: 2,688

  6 accidentals: 796

  7 accidentals: 161

• That trend also applies when applied only to major keys, or only to minor keys.
• Looking at preference of major over minor within the above split, there's a very stable trend up to 5 accidentals:

  Neutral keys: 73.2% major

  1 accidental: 74.7% major

  2 accidentals: 74.9% major

  3 accidentals: 78.8% major

  4 accidentals: 72.9% major

  5 accidentals: 74.4% major

• But for the keys with 6 or 7 accidentals, it's roughly equal:

  6 accidentals: 52.9% major

  7 accidentals: 52.8% major.

• I surmise that that's because these keys are predominantly found in exercises and studies for advanced pianists, and are not even taught to beginners.
• None of above are terribly surprising, but they do perhaps serve to confirm the OP's premise, inter alia. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:13, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  JackofOz, that site is for old (pre-1929 for the time being; it will go up by one year every year) music. In modern popular music sharp keys appear to be more popular. Georgia guy (talk) 22:29, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  Are you talking about score music or recorded popular music? The latter generally has much less notational or metatextual reason to strongly favor one enharmonic spelling over another. While B♭ vs. A♯ matters rather more for woodwind players reading from a score, it matters potentially not at all to a guitarist in a context where notation itself was largely optional and there generally wasn't expected to be a tonal relationship between discrete pieces. In any case, I wouldn't say it's "more popular" because it's simply not a choice that matters, so what the sticker on the fretboard (etc. etc.) says is perfectly serviceable as a label. Plus, of course, the most useful analysis of pop songs deriving in some way from the common practice would likely prefer one over the other regardless, but the distinction is often not prioritized by people entering the data. Remsense诉 22:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  I found a formula, x+y gives the number of sharps/flats in this key (positive number means sharps, negative number means flats), if x+y is > +7 or < -7, then this key is only a theoretical key):

  x:

  B#: +10

  E#: +9

  A#: +8

  D#: +7

  G#: +6

  C#: +5

  F#: +4

  B: +3

  E: +2

  A: +1

  D: 0

  G: -1

  C: -2

  F: -3

  Bb: -4

  Eb: -5

  Ab: -6

  Db: -7

  Gb: -8

  Cb: -9

  Fb: -10

  y:

  Lydian: +3

  Ionian: +2

  Mixolydian: +1

  Dorian: 0

  Aeolian: -1

  Phrygian: -2

  Locrian: -3

  not count the theoretical keys (i.e. the keys with more than 7 sharps/flats), there are 15*7 = 105 possible keys (from B# Locrian (7#) to Fb Lydian (7b)). 61.224.150.139 (talk) 04:11, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

  So Fb Locrian is the most theoretical key? With 13 flat symbols and you can't even remove some of them with the star=## symbol? I suppose you could have Bbbbbbbbbbbb Locrian but that's just ridiculous. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:11, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I don't know. What's wrong with taking, say, an ascending C major scale and with a judicious use of multiple accidentals make it sound like a descending F-sharp minor scale. Simple, really:

C♯♯♯♯♯♯ D♯♯♯ E♭♭ F♭♭♭♭♭♭ G♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭ A♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭ B♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭ C♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:12, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Why not add one more sharp symbol to B# Lydian and call it B# Superlydian, 15 sharps for B# Ultralydian and 16 sharps for B# Hyperlydian, then add one repeat per sharp after running out of Greek and Latin like Hyperhyperhyperhyperhyperhyperhyperhyperhyperlydian? And add some flat modes with names like Infralocrian, Sublocrian and Hypolocrian? Maybe Hypsolocrian and Perlydian too. And Superphyrgian is just Locrian. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:00, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

The invention of writing has been a disaster. Remsense诉 23:39, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Funniest thing I've read this year. :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:47, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Actually Superphyrgian would be minus 1, unless you want super to mean "more extreme in any direction" in which case you couldn't have unambiguous Superdorian anymore. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:22, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

What is “superlydian”, a key with much more sharps than dorian (the medium key)? Also “superlocrian” should be a key with much more flats than dorian (the medium key)? 2402:7500:943:D56F:909B:9877:85C8:AFAA (talk) 02:36, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I propose an SI metric prefix system for this. Rather than Superlydian, Ultralydian, and Hyperlydian, we use Kilolydian, Megalydian, and Gigalydian. Also, instead of Infralocrian, Sublocrian, and Hypolocrian, we use Millilocrian, Microlocrian, and Nanolocrian. GalacticShoe (talk) 06:38, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, Fb Locrian has the key signature the same as G-double-flat major and E-double-flat minor (i.e. 13 flats), and B# Lydian has the key signature the same as F-double-sharp major and D-double-sharp minor (i.e. 13 sharps), thus they are extremely theoretical keys and seldom used. 2402:7500:943:D56F:909B:9877:85C8:AFAA (talk) 02:33, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Please, I find the stuff that GalacticShoe wrote at 06:38 5 May 2024 to be just ridiculous! There are only 7 musical modes. Georgia guy (talk) 11:22, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Theoretically there's an extrapolatable logical order to which note gets the next sharp or flat right, so even though the key that is F♭ Locrian except the next letter gets another flat ("Fb Millilocrian") would be enharmonically equivalent to another key in one of the 7 modes and less than 14 accidentals it could also be the answer to "what's flatter than Locrian?" right? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:15, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

:P GalacticShoe (talk) 17:28, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Hitler's employment

What did Adolf Hitler do for a living between his military service and 1933? Adolf Hitler's rise to power mentions him holding a minor government position in Braunschweig, starting c. 1932, and I assume he was provided for by Bavaria when in prison, but otherwise I don't have an idea how he lived. Did he earn enough royalties from Mein Kampf to live on? Was he paid by the Party? Nyttend (talk) 21:03, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

More detail at Adolf Hitler's rise to power#From Armistice (November 1918) to party membership (September 1919). On discharge from the army, he was an intelligence agent for the miltary, spying on political extremists, where he came into contact with the DAP - German Workers' Party (later the National Socialists), By early 1920, he was the party's head of propaganda, presumably a paid role. Alansplodge (talk) 21:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

To the Threshold of Power, 1922/33: Origins and Dynamics of the Fascist and National Socialist Dictatorships (pp. 331-333) clarifies that he was an agent while still an army NCO and agreed to join the DAP leadership in January 1920 because of impending military cutbacks (which implies that it was indeed a paid post, although I couldn't find anything that specifically says so). Alansplodge (talk) 21:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

"You were supposed to investigate the DAP! Not join them!" JIP | Talk 06:43, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Ian Kershaw has a couple of bits about this in Hubris. In the early 20s he had various well-to-do supporters who gave support in a variety of ways, accommodation, transport, hosting dinners, and cash. Later, as we enter the 30s Kershaw says "Hitler had from the earliest years of his 'career', as we have seen, been supported by generous donations from benefactors. But by the early 1930s he was less dependent on financial support from private patrons, even if his celebrity status now unquestionably brought him many unsolicited donations. His sources of income have remained largely in the dark". He didn't receive a salary or speaking fees from the party, but instead received "hidden fees" - expenses based on the size of the audience, again accommodation, transport, uniforms, etc. By '32 he was earning a lot from his book, articles for newspapers and magazines, interview fees, etc. DuncanHill (talk) 12:47, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I've not yet read it, but Pool, James; Pool, Suzanne (1979). Who Financed Hitler; The Secret Funding Of Hitler's Rise To Power, 1919-1933. Macdonald and Jane's. ISBN 0-354-04395-1. looks well-worth a go. DuncanHill (talk) 13:02, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Which points out, that in 1919, "Hitler was still on the full-time payroll of the Reichswehr as a political agent." Modocc (talk) 21:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, but it was after he left the military that is the mystery. Alansplodge (talk) 22:09, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, I was unaware that he'd remained in the military after the war (I didn't read the earlier section of the article, and figured he'd left the army soon after the Armistice, if not sooner), so I didn't know that he remained in the Army after the war's end. Thus "he remained in the military" actually answers part of what I was looking for, even though it doesn't exactly answer the question. Nyttend (talk) 03:19, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Nyttend, I have added a brief note to the article directly after the text which states that he was discharged from the army in March 1920 and began full-time work for the Nazi Party:

Although the NSDAP claimed that Hitler received no income from them and lived on the fees he received from public speaking at non-party events, he was actually supported financially by several wealthy patrons and party sympathisers.

I have referenced it to Hitler 1889-1936: Hubris (pp. 159-160) by Ian Kershaw, which you can read on archive.org if you want more detail. Trust this is adequate. My thanks to DuncanHill for the reference. Alansplodge (talk) 15:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

We have an article Adolf Hitler's wealth and income which is particularly lacking for the period of this question. DuncanHill (talk) 22:24, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I have attempted to fill the gap in that article, but it needs a lot more work. feel free to chip in. Alansplodge (talk) 17:24, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

May 2

Profile painting of a man wearing a turban or similar in a blue background

Hello, I've seen a lot of time ago a picture of man, facing left or right, possibly with a beard, eyes closed, wearing a peculiar hat in a blue backgound. Could be a painting or a colored photo, can't really say. I've looking for painting of doges, sultans, popes with no results. Could you please help me? Thanks in advance. Carnby (talk) 10:13, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@Carnby, would you happen to remember any details of where you saw this picture, or roughly what the hat may have looked like? No worries if not, just wanted to see if I could narrow it down. GalacticShoe (talk) 16:35, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Maybe have a look through Category:Portraits of sultans of the Ottoman Empire? You're not giving us much to go on. Alansplodge (talk) 22:07, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I know you've mentioned paintings of doges already, but it wouldn't happen to be File:Marco Barbarigo.jpg, would it? Man in profile, peculiar hat, on a blue background, only missing the optional beard and closed eyes (although it's somewhat difficult to discern whether his eyes are open or closed from a distance.) GalacticShoe (talk) 23:22, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@Alansplodge@GalacticShoe Thanks for your efforts. I meant something like this. Hope it helps.-- Carnby (talk) 21:28, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

May 3

Women trafficked to the harems in the 20th-century

Hello, I have read about slavery in Saudi Arabia and the Trucial states, which ended in the 1960s. One aspect of this was the use of female slaves as concubines in harems, which ocurred until the 1960s. What I wonder about is: were there any European women who fell victims to this slave trade in the 20th-century? That is the period of 1900 until the 1960s, when slavery was abolished.

The text books I read were not very clear: it was noted that European women were the most expensive in the 19th-century, but in the 20th-century the only slave trade described were the Red Sea slave trade. It was briefly mentioned that a small minority of the slaves were European, but only in passing.

Is it known if there were any trafficking of European female slaves to the Arabian Peninsula in the 1930s, 1940s or 1950s? Perhaps reports of trafficking in European women at the time? Thanks--92.35.238.97 (talk) 00:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

From the late 19th century through the 1960s, that would have been called "White Slavery" and was a perennial topic of sensationalistic newpaper headlines and highly fictionalized accounts in pulp men's adventure magazines. Around 1980, I actually read parts of a book (probably published in the 1960s or early 1970s) about "white slavery" in the Arab world, but I have no idea now of the title or author, and it focused more on North Africa than the Gulf. As far as I can remember, many of the cases were about young Western European women who were kind of blackmailed into sex-trafficking. Their situations were sad, but according to the author (who had a definite personality in his writing), many of them had made stupid decisions along the way and/or been cast aside by their families. A big thing in the book was "photo slavery", which has resemblances to today's manipulations of getting someone to send a nude selfie, and using that one to blackmail her into sending even more, but of course without smartphones, and the women didn't take their own photos. I don't think there's anything about it on Wikipedia, and I can't find any way to search for it specifically on Google. AnonMoos (talk) 12:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware of that term, and that trafficking was sensationalized, but that was more about victims of the sex trafficking to brothels. I was specifically asking about European women trafficked to harems in the Arabian Peninsula in 1900-1960s, where slavery was in fact still legal at the time, and women were indeed concubines (sex slaves) in the harems at that time period. Slavery was abolished in Saudi Arabia and Yemen in 1962, in the Trucial States/United Arab Emirates in 1963, in Oman in 1970, and female sex slaves/concubines were a reality in that region. I am aware that European women were trafficked there historically, but did that still hapen in the 20th-century? --92.35.238.97 (talk) 14:27, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

There was domestic "white slavery" and international "white slavery"; the International Agreement for the suppression of the White Slave Traffic was aimed at the latter... AnonMoos (talk) 15:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I expect that law could be used against it. But it still speak mainly of the illegal sex trafficking to brothels, rather than the chattel slavery to the harems which were still legal in the Arabian Peninsula at the time. Are there any cases known in the 1930s-1960s were it is confirmed that European women were sold to the harems in this time period? --92.35.238.97 (talk) 18:57, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Declining numbers of US lawyers

Since 2020, and for the first time in 100 years, the number of active lawyers in the U.S. has been decreasing: ABA National Lawyer Population Survey. Do we know why? Do we have articles addressing this trend? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 10:15, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I would think the pandemic might have something to do with it. 2A00:23C4:79CD:B301:65BA:2E7F:4E84:886 (talk) 11:53, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Why would the number of lawyers decrease during the pandemic? Still, to support your assumption, "from 2022 to 2023, the number of active lawyers counted by the survey rose slightly, by just over 4,000, or three-tenths of one percent" (Source). So it's growing again but:

• The number of lawyers in 2023 is still 1.6% below 2019 (1,352,077),
• It only grew by +0.3% in 2023, which is the second lowest growth rate since 1955 (after +0.1% in 2002 and excluding the 3 years of decline)

I also found that the median real incomes of lawyers have been declining and "Between 2008 and 2019, lawyers’ income share of the national gross domestic product fell from 1.64% to 1.32% because clients purchased lawyers’ services less often.". a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 12:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

This may be more related to demographics than anything else. For example, [21] shows that in the UK the number of practising solicitors and barristers over the nine quarters from Q4 2021 to Q4 2023 went down>up>up>down>up>down>up>down. There was a drop of 11,500 (about 1/2 per cent) between Q4 2021 and Q1 2022, and from Q1 2022 to Q4 2023 the number rose by 21,900. 2A00:23C4:79CD:B301:65BA:2E7F:4E84:886 (talk) 12:38, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Data since August 2011 shows a linear growth of practising solicitors in England and Wales. However, the process to become a solicitor was reformed and simplified in 2021. Without this reform, what would be the numbers? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 12:48, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think you can pin this down specifically. For example, this [22] shows that the number of practising barristers in England and Wales has risen continuously between 2019 and 2023, but this increase represents only 800 individuals. There's an in-depth discussion at [23]. 2A00:23C4:79CD:B301:65BA:2E7F:4E84:886 (talk) 13:05, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Barristers are less than 10% of all UK lawyers (including also trademark & patent attorneys and CILEX lawyers). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:37, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Maybe they keep working for a certain ex-president and get disbarred as a result? Chuntuk (talk) 14:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Chuntuk, I doubt it; per the ABA, just 2,791 lawyers were publicly disciplined in 2021, and just 479 of them were disbarred. Nyttend (talk) 21:09, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Danish Islands

Is there a collective name, modern or historical, for the Danish Islands between Schleswig and Scania? I'm referring to Zealand, Funen, Lolland, Falster and othe minor islands. Thank you! 195.62.160.60 (talk) 11:54, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Not in English as far as I can tell. Alansplodge (talk) 14:22, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

We got these here: Sydhavsøerne (informal) and South Funen Archipelago. Abductive (reasoning) 20:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The articles on these islands in the Danish Wikipedia do not reveal some collective name that covers all these islands. The article on Denmark itself mentions "the Danish islands" (de danske øer) lying between Kattegat and the Baltic Sea, but this descriptive name is IMO not meant to be a proper noun. Clearly, North Jutlandic Island, not lying between these sea areas, is also a Danish island.  --Lambiam 20:57, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The term "Danish Archipelago" seems to have been invented in the lede of our article Geography of Denmark, and was marked as 'citation needed' a year ago. It's evidently not official or (from a web search) widely used, so "referred^{[citation needed]} to as the Danish Archipelago" should probably be deleted. Many English speakers familiar with Denmark would probably understand what it referred to, but others might confuse it with the Danish Wadden Sea Islands. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 07:22, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

May 4

What industries dominate each U.S. state?

Wideul (talk) 11:19, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

This article from Forbes Magazine answers your question with data from 2022. Xuxl (talk) 17:14, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

American Constitution and Art support

Can the US government actually support certain artists or artistic genres over others, or does that violate the Constitution?
E.g. support a theater group over another group? 2A02:8071:60A0:92E0:88E7:5787:DF5B:D23F (talk) 11:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

See National Endowment for the Arts. U.S. federal cultural funding is quite limited compared to some other countries, where there can be a Culture Minister or similar in the national cabinet... AnonMoos (talk) 12:06, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

The US Constitution does not speak to the issue. Blueboar (talk) 12:11, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

While the US Constitution does not speak to the general case, it's likely some aspects of the constitution can come into play in specific cases. For example, if Congress passed a law giving special preference to Christian music or something else that is specifically Christian for the reason that it is Christian, this is likely to come into conflict with most recentish interpretations of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution especially under the pre-Kennedy v. Bremerton School District Lemon Test. Nil Einne (talk) 14:13, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

The Constitution authorizes the Congress to protect copyrights and patents, but without any indication of preference for one kind over another. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:51, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Trump and Rubio

Let's suppose that Donald Trump selects fellow Floridian Marco Rubio as his running mate. Let's further suppose that Trump wins Florida. Wouldn't the Florida electors be constitutionally bound to vote for someone besides Rubio for Vice President? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:21, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, or not vote for Trump for president. Alternatively, Trump or Rubio may change residency to a different state which is what Cheney did when running with Bush. RudolfRed (talk) 02:17, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

That would work. But if Rubio were the one to move, he would probably lose his Senate seat. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:03, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

This non-American would love an explanation of the issue being discussed here. HiLo48 (talk) 04:17, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Ah, the peculiarities of the electoral college. The issue is that the Twelfth Amendment to the United States Constitution says: "The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves. Hence, to avoid any problems, either Trump or Rubio would have to establish residence in a state other than Florida. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I see the issue now. HiLo48 (talk) 05:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

If, to obviate this problem, Trump were to change his official State of residence from Florida to somewhere else, would the change of jurisdiction have consequences for some of the actual and potential civil and criminal court cases against him? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.175.176 (talk) 08:09, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Not likely. Keep in mind that he's on trial in New York though he's no longer a resident. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't know if it's quite so simple. I mean it might not affect the trials themselves, but if it comes to it, Florida is known for their particularly strong exemptions for bankruptcy including the entirety of someone's homestead and pension even against civil judgments. O. J. Simpson was known for taking advantage of Florida's protections after the civil judgment against him. I have no idea if the entirety of Mar-a-Lago could be protected this way since Trump has been known to do weird stuff to reduce any tax which might not be so easily reversed. I'm not certain but suspect these pensions would be protected [24] and [25] although the federal government one could probably be modified by congress. I think Trumps previous bankruptcies have shown he knows how to use/abuse the system in other ways so I somewhat doubt even if it comes to it, this would be the way he'd handle things, but it is one possibility. Also while it may not affect any of the cases already filed, I think place of the defendant's residence can be a factor in where a federal trial might be held [26] [27] especially if the wrongdoing wasn't really committed in any particular place in the US. (State trials will always be in the state.) And of course, the place of the defendant's residence is often where they might do actions which will be cause for action e.g. the classified documents case is in Florida because Trump was allegedly improperly storing classified documents in his home in Florida. If Trump were to move somewhere else then future actions which might lead to cases against him would seem more likely to occur in this new state than in Florida. Nil Einne (talk) 11:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

It was pointed out in 2000 that George W. Bush and Dick Cheney were both mainly residents of Texas when the Republican ticket was formed (though Cheney claimed to live in Wyoming), but courts basically refused to hear the issue... AnonMoos (talk) 05:33, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

May 6

Scottish Episcopal Church

Our article says "at the Anglican Communion primates' meeting in October 2017 the Scottish Episcopal Church was suspended for three years from communion decision making on any issues of doctrine or polity". What if anything occurred at the expiry of this three-year period" ---- rossb (talk) 10:32, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Presumably the Primus of the Scottish Episcopal Church was free to attend the 2024 Anglican Communion Primates' Meeting which was held in Rome (of all places) a couple of days ago. No news yet as far as I can see. Alansplodge (talk) 11:05, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi rossb! This recent Youtube video might have some tangential relevance to your query:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr_0io98-uA

{The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.175.176 (talk) 15:56, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Providing historical context for photographs of Berlin, Dresden, and Prague as Communism fell in 1989

In 1989, I traveled as a tourist to East and West Berlin, Dresden, and Prague and photographed events in the two weeks spanning the Fall of Communism. I have now had those negatives digitized and would like to upload them to Wikimedia under Creative Commons CC‑BY‑SA‑4.0 licenses. The images are probably equivalent in terms of content and scope to any currently on Wikipedia — and usually of far better technical and aesthetic quality. And a few images are quite likely unique.

Before making the circa 40 JPG scans public, I would like to better articulate their historical contexts. I am therefore looking for input from folk who can help explain these photographs. I think you would need a detailed knowledge of these events and/or know where to find such information. I can easily arrange Zoom video meetings if useful (my timezone is CEST). RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 10:59, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The editors over at the Commons have pitched in on this sort of project before, probably many more times than I happened to notice. Best to ask there. Abductive (reasoning) 08:36, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Please see: Commons Village Pump posting And respond there if necessary. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 11:18, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

• You may also consider posting this query on the German reference desk, called Auskunft, accessible on the en:RD under languages. By definition, many of the regulars there have experienced this era of recent history from either side of the iron curtain, be that in Berlin, Dresden or via printed / electronic media. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 15:07, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks. Have just done so here: German reference desk RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 19:28, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

May 9

Immanuel Kant, Benjamin Franklin

Did Benjamin Franklin and Kant know of each other, read each other's work, or meet each other or correspond?Rich (talk) 04:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

• Kant never left his hometown of Königsberg, and Franklin spent exactly 2 months of 1766 in Germany, which I believe was almost entirely spent in Hanover. So the answer would seem to be no for "meet".
• Kant famously described Franklin as "The Prometheus of Modern Times" (but not "The American Prometheus" afaik).
• As for correspondence, I haven't found anything, or anything about Franklin being aware of Kant, though I would have to guess so if my life depended on it.

Remsense诉 04:38, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Slavery in Vietnam

Hello. Does anyone know when Chattel Slavery was abolished in Vietnam? I know slavery was abolished by France during the colonial period in Cambodia and Laos, so I assume it was the same in Vietnam, but I have not managed to find out any date. Does anyone know the year when slaver was abolished in Vietnam? Thanks--Aciram (talk) 12:02, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

"Following a 'Government of Admirals' generally in favour of respecting traditional institutions, Le Myre de Vilers, who in 1879 became the first civil Governor of Indochina, introduced the French Penal code and consequently officially abolished slavery."[28] --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 14:10, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Ah! Excellent. Thank you very much!--Aciram (talk) 16:41, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

May 10

German South West Africa

Does anyone know why specifically the Germans were "granted" South-West Africa? I know that they established Lüderitz in 1884, but I can't figure out why they settled there specifically, other than for strategic purposes and proximity to The Cape. Could anyone tell me if there was anything else to it? Thanks! Roosterchz (talk) 18:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Vlaamse Koning

Also, does anyone know if Leopold II could speak Dutch/Flemish at a native level? I would assume so however, I couldn't find a definitive answer. Thanks again! Roosterchz (talk) 18:48, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Did he understand Dutch? [He almost certainly did.] Did he speak it? [Almost never.] It was clear that French was still his preferred tongue, as was also the case with his brother, Prince Philip. In stark contrast, Queen Marie-Henriette did make an effort to speak Dutch. This was particularly awkward at state functions at which the royal couple were both present, since the queen babbled away in one national language, while the king continued to talk exclusively in the other! This inability (or unwillingness) of the king and his brother to speak Dutch was occasionally a source of criticism in the Flemish press.

From Belgium and the Monarchy: From National Independence to National Disintegration (p. 49)

Alansplodge (talk) 19:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

April 27

Of or In

Hello if an article is focused on highlighting a country's or city's attractions or venues or landmarks is it of or in? For example, Landmarks of Zambia or Landmarks in Zambia? Attractions of Seattle or Attractions in Seattle?

Wikipedia seems to be inconsistent. Classicwiki (talk) If you reply here, please ping me. 21:37, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't suppose it matters much, but in seems more neutral, while of implies that the people or government of the region are responsible for the thing in question. So we have Slums in Chennai and Abandoned mine drainages in Colorado, not of in either case, whereas Castles of Albania says "these castles are a great asset to the Albanian nation".  Card Zero  (talk) 00:04, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Both are clearly correct. "Of" indicates association, as in prepositinal sense 8 here, "belonging or connected to"; "in" indicates location, as in prepositional sense 1 here, "within the limits, bounds, or area of". So it's a matter of preference. --142.112.220.50 (talk) 00:08, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I would tend to see "landmarks of" as more natural than "landmarks in". Native British English speaker. DuncanHill (talk) 00:10, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Card Zero - that was the same line of logic I had. Take for example, Pueblo Bonito which was built before the state of New Mexico even existed. To me it would feel more neutral to say it is a landmark in New Mexico. Thanks for the reply. Classicwiki (talk) If you reply here, please ping me. 00:20, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

April 28

Questions

1. Are there any English dialects with short front rounded vowels, like /ʏ/ or /œ/?
2. Are there any words in English where checked vowels occur before /r/?
3. Are there any words in English where short full vowels occur in end of word?
4. Is there any language where epenthetic vowels or clitics can be stressed?
5. Are there any words in English where short vowels occur in stressed open syllables?
6. In Spanish, word país is pronounced [pa.ˈis]. The hypothetical word pais would be pronounced as [pajs], with a diphthong. But how would [ˈpa.is] be spelled, with a hiatus and stress on first syllable?
7. Can in English the OVS word order be used on emphasis?

--40bus (talk) 20:46, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

As for no. 2, checked vowels occur before intervocalic "r" in all quasi-standard dialects of English that I'm aware of. In the trio of "marry, merry, and Mary", short "a" [æ] traditionally occured in the first word and short "e" [ɛ] in the second. AnonMoos (talk) 02:14, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

New Yorkers, at least, tend to pronounce "marry" and "Mary" with a short a. In the midwest at least, marry, merry and Mary are generally pronounced identically, i.e. to sound like "merry". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:49, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

See Mary–marry–merry merger. In British English, this merger does not exist, the three words are pronounced with different vowels. Alansplodge (talk) 21:30, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of merging or not, checked/short vowels occur before intervocalic "r" in all quasi-standard dialects of English that I'm aware of. AnonMoos (talk) 23:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Is there an article on the Belvoir / Beaver merger? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:19, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

What is that supposed to mean? AnonMoos (talk) 23:21, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Belvoir and Beaver are pronounced the same. DuncanHill (talk) 23:48, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Learning this has just given me the same level of whiplash I felt when I learned that Cholmondeley is pronounced "Chum-lee." GalacticShoe (talk) 00:07, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

That's nice -- it has absolutely nothing whatever to do with checked vowels before "r", and so is exactly as relevant here as "Saturn has rings"... AnonMoos (talk) 00:41, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

As for no. 3, I already pointed out "yeah" and "baaah" (bleating of a sheep) previously. If you mean stressed short or checked vowels ending full lexical words (non-interjections), the answer is "no". AnonMoos (talk) 02:14, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

There is pho. Nardog (talk) 23:56, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Only if it's pronounced in a foreign way. AnonMoos (talk) 00:41, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

As for no. 5, there are many many English words where a stressed short/checked vowel occurs before a single intervocalic consonant (river, rubber, better, sinner etc. etc, where the orthographic double consonant letters do not indicate distinctive phonological geminate consonant sounds), but whether such a syllable is considered "open" depends on your theory of syllabification. AnonMoos (talk) 02:22, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

As for no. 4, there are a few forms in Tiberian Hebrew where an originally epenthetic vowel ends up stressed. The noun חדר "room" is Heder in the absolute state. It's a Segolate, so the first vowel is stressed, while the second vowel is originally epenthetic, but sometimes in the construct state the stress shifts to the second syllable... AnonMoos (talk) 02:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

See the first two pronunciations at Wiktionary (though not strictly Biblical). AnonMoos (talk) 23:20, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

As for no. 7, it's easy to get OSV with topicalization (focus fronting): "Him I don't like". OVS would be difficult outside of tortured poetry... AnonMoos (talk) 02:56, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

If an example of tortured poetry is needed, "Jawbone And The Air-Rifle" by The Fall contains the line "No bottle has he anymore". --Wrongfilter (talk) 10:39, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

V2 word order mentions some vestiges in Modern English. The section on direct quotations is relevant, as the quote can be seen as the direct object of the verb in the dialogue tag. So, ‘“Don't let us go too far!” said Frodo,’ is in OVS order. PiusImpavidus (talk) 19:52, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

It's kind of stretching the meanings to call a full sentence an "object". If by object we mean something which is typically given an accusative ending in case-inflected languages (due to its relationship with a verb), then OVS is quite marginal in modern English. (Notice that in the V2 word order article you linked to, the things that can cause V2 are listed as "topic adverbs and adverbial phrases" and quotatives -- not objects...) AnonMoos (talk) 22:15, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

4: Bulgarian has both. After the negative particle, pronominal and reflexive clitics are normally stressed: не те видях /nɛ ˈtɛ viˈdjax/ 'I didn't see you' (cf. днес те видях /ˈdnɛs tɛ viˈdjax/ 'today I saw you'), не се знае /nɛ ˈsɛ ˈzna.ɛ/ 'it is not known' (cf. това се знае /toˈva sɛ ˈzna.ɛ/ 'this is (well-)known'). Also the epenthetic vowel is stressed in добър /doˈbɤr/ 'good' (cf. the plural form добри /doˈbri/). Besides, in Arabic imperative verb forms, initial clusters are prevented by epenthesis of preceding vowels (themselves preceded by /ʔ-/ because a vowel cannot begin a syllable either), and compliant to the stress patterns of the language, such vowels can be stressed: اكتب /ˈʔuk.tub/ 'write!', اذهب /ˈʔið.hab/ 'go!'. --Theurgist (talk) 21:37, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

April 29

Deliberate misspellings

Is there a term for the deliberate misspellings used in advertising such as "nite" ad "kwik"? I couldn't find one in the extensive -onym article, though such crimes probably don't deserve to be listed there. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:48, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Sensational spelling. Nardog (talk) 09:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Ah, thank you! That's not a description I would have used myself. Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:25, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Shantavira, the term doesn't specify which sensation is evoked :-) Alansplodge (talk) 11:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

TV Tropes uses the term Xtreme Kool Letterz Iapetus (talk) 12:02, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

April 30

Latin alphabet

Why Bulgarian has not switched to Latin alphabet like Romanian did in 1860, and why Serbian can also be written in Latin alphabet in addition to Cyrillic, but Macedonian cannot? --40bus (talk) 21:28, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that it's been explained before that the basic correlation is with religion: Predominantly Catholic and/or Protestant in population means a strong likelihood of being written with the Latin alphabet, while predominantly Eastern Orthodox means a strong likelihood of being written with the Greek or Cyrillic alphabets (and of course, in the 19th century and earlier, predominantly Muslim meant a strong likelihood of being written with the Arabic alphabet). A deliberate decision was made to switch Romanian from Cyrillic to Latin to affiliate Romanian with French and the other Romance languages (and also because many Romanians disliked Russia). Bulgarian had no such reasons to shift. Serbo-Croatian was spoken by large numbers of both Catholics and Orthodox, so basically from the beginning of its significant use as a literary language, it was written in both the Latin and Cyrillic alphabets. For complicated and specific reasons, the Latin alphabet had more use in Serbia than the Cyrillic alphabet had in Croatia. Macedonian (which was codified a century after Serbo-Croatian) was unaffected by this... AnonMoos (talk) 23:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, the Early Cyrillic alphabet was devised in Bulgaria in the 9th-century, so there's probably an element of national pride involved in its retention there. Alansplodge (talk) 12:00, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Sunless Sea - Original Game Soundtrack

Am i correct in assuming that the title of track 3, 4, 5, 10, 15 and 20 is Latin? Trade (talk) 22:53, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

"Elegiac" and "Benthic" are derived from Greek through Latin, but do not have the endings to be actual Latin words. And "Zombius" is not traditional Latin. -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:13, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Though it's implied in your answer, I think it's worth making explicit for OP that elegiac and benthic are English words. GalacticShoe (talk) 06:54, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Only #20, Undulata, is proper Latin. Other titles that look like Latin are dog Latin. The first word of #15, Vox, is a good Latin word, but while the term Zombius by itself could be a Latin adjective formed from a proper noun, the combination should then have been Vox Zombia, since vox is a feminine noun.  --Lambiam 06:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Out of interest, it seems likely that the term "Sunless Sea" is taken from Kubla Khan, a poem written by Samuel Taylor Coleridge in 1797:

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan

A stately pleasure-dome decree:

Where Alph, the sacred river, ran

Through caverns measureless to man

Down to a sunless sea.

Alansplodge (talk) 11:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

You are correct. Sunless Sea and its originating/companion game Fallen London are set in an alternative version of Victorian London, and thus make the occasional literary reference apt for the time. GalacticShoe (talk) 16:04, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

May 1

Tank legend

A Soviet M4A2 at Grabow in eastern Germany, May 1945.

Could someone kindly translate the Russian slogan chalked on the side of this Lend-Lease Sherman tank please? Alansplodge (talk) 13:19, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

"Forward to victory", although победе is misspelled as поведе for some reason. Xuxl (talk) 13:40, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, it appears to be a Б, the majuscule form of the б, with a long serif descending from the upper horizontal stroke. Вперед literally means "in the lead", "in the front".  --Lambiam 14:06, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

It's 'v' followed by 'p', but yeah. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 15:38, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Marvelous - thanks all. Google finds that it's a well-used phrase and alliterative to boot.

File:Аввакумов. По вражьей земле. Вперед к победе!.jpg Alansplodge (talk) 18:39, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Resolved

Vpered k pobede is arguably not alliterative, considering Russian consonant clusters. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:19, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I stand corrected, I was getting my Cyrillic characters muddled. Alansplodge (talk) 16:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

It's actually вперёд with the ё, pronounced something like vpyeriyód. Sound file at Russian wiktionary. The diaresis is often missed out by Russians, especially in capital letters as in Alansplodge's poster. There's probably a widely-understood pronunciation rule somwhere. MinorProphet (talk) 00:13, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

It apparently is or was a controversy on Russian Wikipedia; see the images in commons:Category:Russian letter Ё... AnonMoos (talk) 17:44, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. I was lucky enough to learn Russian at school to O-level (GSCE), plus a year at university (not even worth an Ægrot. as per Sellar & Yeatman). I might feel bold enough to raise the point at ru:helpdesk/refdesk or equivalent. MinorProphet (talk) 00:26, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Deventer pronunciation

Does anyone here know why our article on the Hanseatic city of Deventer says Dutch: [ˈdeːvəntər], when everyone in the city as well as those driving and marshalling intercity trains to it seem to pronounce it more like [ˈdæjvəntər]? Is that pronunciation in brackets when it should actually be in slashes or am I just tone deaf? Thanks! – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 19:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I guess the local pronunciation might be considered dialectal and not official in Standard Dutch. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:18, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Wiktionary gives the pronunciation /ˈdeː.vən.tər/, between slashes. In Northern Standard Dutch as commonly spoken today by e.g. TV anchors, the /eː/ is realized as a diphthong [eɪ̯]. The Dutch Low Saxon spelling is Daeventer, in which ⟨ae⟩ presumably reflects the local pronunciation.  --Lambiam 06:42, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

It would be best to put it in slashes, not brackets.

I find Dutch phonetic transcriptions here often overly narrow, as if attempting to pinpoint the exact town the speaker comes from. There is a dialect continuum, ranging from Low Saxon, as spoken in Twente on the eastern border of the Netherlands, to Northern Standard Dutch, as spoken on the west coast and used by most TV anchors (and, somewhat derogatory, called Randstad Dutch by those not coming from the west). Sallands, spoken around Deventer, is near, but not at, the east end of that continuum. The east has monophthongs, the west diphthongises the tense vowels; in the east, the vowels tend to be a bit more closed than in the west. City dialects are often a bit different from the surrounding countryside; less conservative and sounding more western. I don't know any people originating from Deventer, although I've a cousin currently living there. [æ] for the the first vowel sounds a bit too open to me, but I don't know the local city dialect. There are places where /e/ can be realised as such.

The standard announcements on trains are pre-recorded, by a small sample of voice actors. The pronunciation is usually non-local, sometimes completely wrong. Live announcements are spoken by the guard of the train, who can come from anywhere in the country and is usually not familiar with the local dialect. They are supposed to use reasonably standard Dutch, but there's no official standard and only the guards originating from the Randstad are likely to use Randstad Dutch. PiusImpavidus (talk) 11:20, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

May 2

Why is Tresckow pronounced like -cow and and not -coff

• Henning Hermann Karl Robert von Tresckow (German: [ˈhɛ.nɪŋ fɔn ˈtʁeːs.ko] ^ⓘ ...

That's how I've always heard his name spoken in movies etc, but I thought maybe they were pandering to ignorant Englishers who don't know that -ow in German is normally said like -off. Not so in this case, apparently.

So why is Tresckow spoken that way? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:26, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I can't tell you why this is so, but the pronunciation is actually standard for German names, in particular in the North East, see for instance the Berlin borough of Pankow. Russian names, by contrast, are usually transcribed as -ow (e.g. Gorbatschow) and pronounced -off. It's confusing, but there is a pattern. --Wrongfilter (talk) 11:48, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

de:-ow has some info about these names. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:31, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Word-final ow in German is always pronounced [o(ː)]. There are a million examples, particularly place names, but also surnames. The former GDR is full of places ending in ow; in Rostock (district) alone, we find the municipalities Güstrow, Neubukow, Satow, Teterow, Retschow, Bützow, Tarnow, Warnow, Groß Schwiesow, Gülzow-Prüzen, Gutow, Lüssow, Dobbin-Linstow, Krakow am See, Wardow, Alt Sührkow, Schorssow, Sukow-Levitzow, Thürkow, Alt Bukow, Bröbberow, Kassow, Grammow, Nustrow, Thelkow, Kritzmow, Pölchow, and Stäbelow. The only German word ending with ow pronounced [ɔf] that I am aware of is Kromow, and that is the name of a fictional character in The Merry Widow who is supposed to be a Slav. In fact, the only other German word I can think of where word-final w is pronounced [f] is the name of the city of Calw.

There is something unexpected about the pronunciation of Tresckow, though: the spelling would have you expect [ˈtʁɛsko(ː)] with a short e. 2001:4646:2494:0:C6D:BAD6:4C79:F92E (talk) 18:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Not to be confused with Trescowe, by Tre, Pol and Pen shall ye know Cornishmen... Alansplodge (talk) 19:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Wow, that's something I've learned today, thanks Friend 2001:4646. I've always loved languages and have acquired a ton of info along the way, but I've never studied German formally. So until now I was under the clear mis-impression that German w is always spoken like v or ff. How wrong I was. Are there any other exceptions? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:58, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

There was a discussion on the referebce desk about this topic. I don't know how to link it properly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2022_April_6 --82.52.22.107 (talk) 20:03, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Very enlightening. Thank you. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:27, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Resolved

Chandrabindu

(I'm not sure if this belongs in RDL or RDC, because I don't know if it something real in the notation, or an artifact of the Google keyboard. But I thought I'd ask here first). These two look different (and Duolingo treats them as different) but I'm not sure if they are different things, or if the second is Google keyboard getting it wrong:

अँ 
अंँ

I created them both on the Hindi Google keyboard on my phone: the first by entering अ and then holding on the anusvara button. I get the second by completing the word including the anusvara, and then separately holding the anusvara button. Does anybody know if these reflect a real distinction in Devanagari? ColinFine (talk) 18:24, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

The bottom character is actually अं with an extra chandrabindu on top. I'm not a Devanagari expert (disclaimer: I know essentially nothing about South Asian languages), but a friend of mine who speaks Hindi pointed out that nasalizing अं would probably be redundant. GalacticShoe (talk) 19:04, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I see. So it's generating something that it shouldn't. (The reason this is happening is that the predictive text on the Hindi keyboard puts the visarga in, but never puts the chandrabindu, and Duolingo objects; so I either have to enter the word sound by sound, or I have to go back and add the chandrabindu - and I see now that it's adding without removing the visarga, which is plain wrong. That's not the only problem with its Hindi predictive text: it often uses a short ु when it should be a long ू ). Thank you for clarifying. ColinFine (talk) 19:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

May 3

invisible word breaks in Chinese

When I double-click on text, a word is selected. But Chinese is written sans spaces. If I double-click on a string of three or more Chinese characters, one or two characters are selected; and I cannot get overlapping pairs by double-clicking on different characters. Many modern Chinese words are two characters … but how does my browser (or OS) know which pairs are words? I have not found evidence of hidden zero-width breaks. —(If it is the sense of the assembly that this belongs in Computing, I will of course move it there.) —Tamfang (talk) 00:09, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Probably from a word list; there's nothing in the writing system itself which would indicate this as far as I know... AnonMoos (talk) 00:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

You don't say which OS but this is the sort of thing modern OSes have built in. MacOS e.g. the OS can translate any text you can select – including text in images – so it makes sense it helps you select blocks of text which makes sense to translate, by e.g. treating 'words' of two characters as single blocks. To do so it probably has to parse not just one or two characters but those surrounding it, however much is needed. --217.23.224.20 (talk) 11:03, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

This was really exciting actually! Firefox recently pushed an update allowing the selection of text by word in unspaced languages. If I had to guess, you either use Firefox or another app where this was recently implemented, As someone who's only been learning Chinese for a few years, I will soon be shocked that people used software for so long that didn't have this ability. Remsense诉 11:21, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

WHAAOE: Text segmentation Aecho6Ee (talk) 22:21, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Building upon the Firefox thing above, apparently, the relevant update was 122.0, where they call it "language-aware word selection." It is controlled by the flag intl.icu4x.segmenter.enabled, which means the feature is apparently using the ICU4X Unicode library and of that, the segmenter module. Looking at the code (or reading the comments, rather), the segmenter is apparently "using the LSTM model when available and the dictionary model for Chinese and Japanese." Aecho6Ee (talk) 22:21, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Neat, thanks for explicating! Remsense诉 22:55, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Resolved

—Tamfang (talk) 18:15, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Russian sentence?

Dear hive-mind. I came across this sentence "[...] Павла Григорьевича Г. (род. около 1861), привлекавшегося в 1885 Варшавским губ. жанд. управлением к дознанию по второму делу «Пролетариата»." (https://imwerden.de/pdf/minuvshee_02_1986__ocr.pdf). Does this mean that Pavel Grigorevich was recruited by Warsaw Gendarmerie to intervene in the Proletariat case, or that he could have been arrested or accused in the case? -- Soman (talk) 11:44, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

[29] indicates that he was investigated. --Soman (talk) 11:59, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

May 5

Latin

In an attempt to improve Thomas Rymer, I came across this: (see Talk:Thomas Rymer#DoB and 1st para, 'Early life and education'):

"Thomas Rymer filius Radulphi Rymer de Brafferton in comitatu Eboracensi generosi Lit : Gram : per octo annos a Thoma Smelt apud oppidum Northallerton dictum institutus, annos agens septemdecem, admissus est pensionarius minor, tutore et fidejussore Johanne Luke in artibus magistro 29 Ap. 1658."

Although my O-level Latin allows me to grasp most of the above, there are a number of words/phrases whose meaning escape me, namely: generosi; dictum; and agens. Fidejussore = "guarantor, one who gives surety or goes bail. (uncommon)." {{acad}} says Luke gained his M.A. in 1656.

My version:

Thomas Rymer, the son of Ralph Rymer of Brafferton in the county of York generosi was prepared ('institutus...est') in Literature and Grammar for eight years by Thomas Smelt at/in the town of Northallerton dictum, [and] at the age of seventeen was admitted as 'pensionarius minor' by [his] tutor and guarantor John Luke as M.A. 29 April 1658.

Anyone feel capable of filling in the gaps? MinorProphet (talk) 01:20, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps apud oppidum...dictum means 'in the said town of Northallerton', although it may not have been mentioned previously. MinorProphet (talk) 01:44, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd translate it as "at/near the town called ...".  --Lambiam 11:30, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Most likely. I suspect it's a roundabout way of referring to places with no direct Latin equivalent, eg Eboracum, Glevum (Gloucester), and probably means no more than 'the town of Northallerton'. MinorProphet (talk)

I have no skill in Latin, but could the generosi element relate to Thomas Smelt, perhaps funding or in terms of giving his time ? Alansplodge (talk)

In the phrase a Thoma Smelt, 'by Thomas Smelt', the preposition a takes the ablative case, and generosi is genitive sing., so it must (hah!) relate to either Radulphi or Eboracensi. Whitaker's Words also gives "of good family/stock". MinorProphet (talk) 11:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Latin generosus can mean "excellent", "honourable", so (not quite idiomatic English) "in the county of honourable York"; more idiomatic "in the honourable County of York". And īnstituō can mean "to train, teach, instruct, educate (usually by a course of training)", so Tom "was instructed" in Lit & Gram. The verb agō, in combination with a specified age, means "to be so old" (see L&S).  --Lambiam 13:24, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Good old Lewis and Short: that ago is an enormous entry. I quite like agite, pugni "up, fists, and at 'em!" L&S is also available at Latinitium along with Smith & Hall Eng-Lat and others, intro here. MinorProphet (talk)

Does it not, perhaps, make more sense to take generosi as modifying "Radulphi Rymer": "son of the honorable Ralph Rymer of Brafferton in the county of York"? Deor (talk) 13:38, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Ralph, the father, was very much a Parliamentarian, hanged for his part in the 1663 Farnley Wood Plot to oust Charles II. The Farnley Wood Plot and the Memory of the Civil Wars in Yorkshire (jstor) says he was the most well-to-do of all the 'conspirators', worth £400 a year. L&S on Latinitium includes 'eminent' for generosus, and I feel that despite the distance between Radulphi...generosi it seems more likely to refer to him than Eboracensi. MinorProphet (talk)

Many thanks to all for your kind and thoughtful contributions. I found the admission entries for other Cambridge undergrads including Milton and Darwin use a very similar formula/template. Pensioners or Commoners paid for their fees and board, unlike scholars or sizars, who were subsidised. Thus:

Thomas Rymer, the son of the eminent Ralph Rymer (OR of good stock) of Brafferton in the county of York, instructed in Letters and Grammar for eight years by Thomas Smelt in the town of Northallerton, at the age of seventeen years was admitted as pensionarius minor by [his] tutor and guarantor John Luke as M.A. 29 April 1658.

MinorProphet (talk) 23:37, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Although I felt that apud oppidum Northallerton dictum just meant 'in the town of Northallerton' rather than Lambiam's 'town called Northallerton', I just noticed that Ralph was de Brafferton with no ending, but with de taking the ablative: so why the extra dictum (neut. sing.) if apud oppidum Northallerton would work in the same way, with apud taking the acc. of location? I may be overthinking things (a fatal habit of mine.) I realise it doesn't materially affect the general sense of the whole passage. MinorProphet (talk) 11:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Why do people write such things as "a town called Meziers", "a large town called Bruges", "a small town called Thielt", "a town called Melun", "a town called St. Quentin", "a town called Noyon", "a town called Crepy", "a town called Meaux", "a town called Pethovers", "a town called Tusson", ...^[30]? This may indicate that they do not presume their readers' being familiar with these names. Is it possible that the Northallerton of 1658 was not a well-known place?  --Lambiam 07:54, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, it's an awful long way from Cambridge (in 17th-century terms, probably more than a week's journey by road). Although it was the county town for the North Riding of Yorkshire, writing a century earlier, John Leland says that "The towne of Northalverton, is yn one fair long streate lying by south and north", [31] so not a terribly big place. Alansplodge (talk) 15:39, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

References

May 6

Theatre jargon

I apologize in advance, but my understanding of old slang is not very good, and there's a lot of it in the literature. I am reading up on the cultural history of the Beat generation by John Arthur Maynard and this passage of his bothers me because it refers to old theatre jargon that I'm not familiar with at all. The context is the anti-consumerist lifestance of the so-called beatnik. Here's a sample with the problematic term in added bold:

The gates slammed hard on the Venice beats. It was one thing to harbor strange ideas; it was another, in the language of the theater, to "kid the show." In Southern California, the show was economic growth—and the unquestioning belief in its goodness.

I've never heard "kid the show" before. What does this mean and what does it refer to and what are its origins? Viriditas (talk) 22:55, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

"Don't kid the show. For maximum effect, the play should be acted completely straight, as if the cast were performing a serious drama. Nothing spoils a stage romp more than having the actors 'kid' a script that is farcical to begin with. Let the laughs come from the audience, not the cast" DuncanHill (talk) 23:27, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Ok. The Venice beatniks, who worked to live, not lived to work, and had "contempt for middle-class people and their values", embraced voluntary poverty and opposed materialism, were "kidding the show" of capitalism? It's just a bit confusing. Viriditas (talk) 23:36, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Out of curiosity I asked Perplexity AI to explain; in summary:

So in essence, "kidding the show" means a producer ceding creative control to the writers, composers, director or other key creatives, rather than micromanaging the artistic process. It suggests a producer who trusts the talent they've assembled to make the best creative decisions for the production.

In this context, I'd assume it relates to making something up on the spot, or about slightly changing the way something is said to influence how it's understood.

--136.54.106.120 (talk) 02:39, 7 May 2024 (UTC) -- P.s. link to perplexity.ai was not allowed

Acting straight when the situation in the play is funny for the audience is also the sense implied here.  --Lambiam 07:06, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I can't read that, but "acting straight when the situation in the play is funny" is the opposite of the sense of the text I linked. DuncanHill (talk) 08:26, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, the sense in the article is the same, but I misrepresented it. The article, "Making you Laugh is no Joke" by Otto Harbach in the issue of Collier's of October 9, 1926, has a section entitled "No Fun in Kidding the Show" that argues, by example, that the comedic humor lies in the portrayed characters not realizing themselves that they, in the situation, are funny. "If Miss Vokes had winked or looked wise when she said this, there would have been no laugh. What made it so funny was her air of not realizing she was letting the cat out of the bag. If a comedian laughs at his part, the audience doesn’t."  --Lambiam 06:08, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think I've heard the phrase "kidding the show" before, but I've come across complaints that actors who try to play The Importance of Being Earnest in an overtly mugging or humorous way are kind of missing the point of the play -- it's better to say the ridiculous lines with apparent solemnity, and let the humor emerge that way... AnonMoos (talk) 10:43, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

It's odd to me that Theatrecrafts.com, which contains a comprehensive glossary of technical theatre terms and expressions, doesn't include it. Viriditas (talk) 20:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

For some reason, if an actor laughs during a performance (when the character isn't supposed to laugh), or deliberately causes another actor to do so, it's called corpsing. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:07, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Wiktionary defines the term as, "(intransitive, slang, of an actor) To laugh uncontrollably during a performance." Of the three quotations given, the second actually seems to mean "to freeze", like Mitch McConnell when asked whether he will run for re-election.^[32]  --Lambiam 07:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

April 29

Rare book message board

Other than Reddit, which I have been using, does anyone here use any rare book message boards? I want to discuss some very specific issues with rare books that I do not expect anyone here to know. For example, Ben Hur first edition had a star cover and a flower cover. Which came first? Why two covers? Is one preferred over the other? 75.136.148.8 (talk) 13:50, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

There was rec.books.collecting way back but it is probably dead by now. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:6CE6 (talk) 10:10, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

https://www.i2pn2.org (a free usenet server) lists rec.collecting.books among groups available. TrogWoolley (talk) 10:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

April 30

Where can a person find what Simpsons characters appeared in a scene for no reason?

I have this memory of a book or web site telling us all the things we might have missed in episodes of The Simpsons. With the ability to record and freeze, we can see a lot more than we used to. For example, many scenes have characters from the show who don't have any reason for being there. They don't have lines but they're just there. I have no idea how to do a search for such a thing.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 22:04, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The Simpsons Wiki over at Fandom perhaps? --Ouro (blah blah) 06:16, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Your criteria "for no reason" makes this impossible to answer. As an example, Larry showed up in many scenes in Moes bar with no obvious reason. No lines. Just sitting at the bar and drinking beer. But, it wasn't for NO reason. In a recent episode, the entire point of his character is that he was always in the bar, but was not interacted with. Then, he died and the remaining bar regulars pondered their relationship with him. So, it was all a build-up for that episode. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 16:19, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

When I say "for no reason" the big example that comes to mind is when the family is in church. Nearly everyone on the show is shown in that church at the Sunday service. Even people we wouldn't think of as religious. Dr. Hibbert has a different and more lively church, and yet he is sometimes shown at the Simpsons' church. There are numerous examples. Before there was the Internet as we know it, I recall someone listing all the stuff we might not have noticed if we didn't record and freeze. I was hopping someone still did that.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 20:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

May 1

Monk-related question

In an episode of Monk, there's this church where T.K. and Stottlemeyer were going to get married. In that scene, an explosion occurs among a pile of gifts right after Randy finishes playing the steel pan. Where was this filmed? TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 21:39, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Looking at screenshots posted online, I see St. Brendan Church in many of them. It is at 310 South Van Ness Avenue in San Francisco. Does that look correct to you? 75.136.148.8 (talk) 16:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Yep! That's the one. I even looked up the Wikipedia page for it. TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 01:09, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

At that address in San Francisco, Google Maps shows a car-repair place. But at the same street address in Los Angeles is St. Brendan Catholic Church, Los Angeles. That would be the one. I believe that Monk, like many TV shows, often filmed scenes in Los Angeles although it was set elsewhere, in this case San Francisco. --142.112.220.50 (talk) 22:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

May 2

Witch of the Phantom

Hello! I wonder if anyone can identify a particular figure of the classic Phantom cartoon. I remember having a copy of the Phantom once were the Phantom became involved in a witch trial: a woman was being persecuted for sorcery as a witch, and falsely accused of eating children. This album would have been from the 1980s or 1990s: the strips were still black-and-white. I expect it would have been an adventure of the 3th-5th Phantom, considering the time period. I lost that album as a child and have tried to find it, but I don't know which number it was and what the episode was called. Can anyone help? Thanks!--92.35.238.97 (talk) 23:57, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps you can find something helpful at [33]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:39, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

May 8

Onion alliance

Does anyone know the origin of the phrase "onion alliance"? This is a phrase I associate with Survivor but the phrase may have been used on a different social strategy game before? I know that early seasons of Survivor has "onion alliances" but were called "sub alliance" and "core alliance" instead. (78.19.40.32 (talk) 18:53, 8 May 2024 (UTC))

Here's one theory:[34] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:41, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

May 9

Thoroughbreds

Why did their races get shorter over time and why are turf (grass) tracks more important in Europe while in the US the grass track(s) are inside the main outer one made of soil or sometimes artificial substance (not fake grass)? The US Triple Crown races and flagship race of the Breeders Cup (the North American "horse Olympics") are on dirt so if it rains before and during the race the soil could become mud. And why are US races shorter than European (England has 5-6 furlong races too its flagship race (St Ledger Stakes, 14.6f) is longer than the Breeders Cup Marathon which was 12 furlongs then 14 then cancelled for race strength never reaching the other races. Our Triple Crown is 10, 9.5 and a "Double Crown" winner humbling 12 furlongs (cause our horses are bred for more fast-twitch muscles), while Brits have Group 1 races up to 20 furlongs while we don't have any grade 1, 2, or 3 races above 16 furlongs (there are almost 100 grade 1 races in North America – none over 12 furlongs). Also England's 21.65f Queen Alexandra Stakes was the longest pro flat race on Earth before being usurped by Australia's current longest (22.87 furlongs). Australia's most famous race is 15.91 furlongs.Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:36, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Because like many other activities and pursuits, sports that are developing on different continents in near-isolation from one another tend, because of local factors, chance events and different decisions, to diverge from one another in their development. Compare with American Football and Rugby Union, which in the 19th century were the same game, but which are now very different. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.175.176 (talk) 08:51, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Does anyone know that are the local factors, chance events and local decisions? Did that fox hunter-invented thing where they bet on hurdle races influence Commonwealth and European breeding? However the oldest races at list of British flat horse races (1751, 1752 and 1758) are all 30.5 to 33.5 furlongs. It seems we avoided the NASCAR of horse jumping cause it didn't become a major sport till 19th century and fox hunting with horses and dogs and rich people was never popular here. And Europe mostly avoided our weird secondary horse sport of harness (chariot) galloping is a foul racing cause reasons. The most famous races of France and Japan are the metric 12 furlongs while ours is exactly 10 furlongs. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:42, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

This Australian is busting to know what that 22.87 furlong Australian race is. HiLo48 (talk) 09:41, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

As soon as you can explain how Australia turned the old rugby sport into something that looks kind of like rugby, kind of like soccer, kind of like basketball, kind of like quidditch, and I'm sure there is some darts, ballet, and Greco-Roman wrestling tossed in for good measure. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 11:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Kind of like ball punching. You can't pass the ball without punching it I think. Also you can touch the ball on the ground once every 20 meters or so 15 meters if you're too amateur at the basketballesque dribble every 15 meters to be allowed to keep running from your opponents trying to sportingly hit you thing. I believe they have to run into them in less risky ways (i.e. no headbutting), hug till they're down and turn to avoid landing on them to minimize chance of injury. This was developed as a way for cricketers to use Australia's unusually large sports fields (which are oval) in the offseason. They didn't want it to be too easy to score since they could only practically increase defenders to the current eighteen. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:05, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I watched one game once because it was listed as the professional sport with the least pay and viewership gap between men and women leagues. It is one of those games where you can't stop watching even if you have no clue what is heppening. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 16:44, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Even less than tennis, gymnastics synchronized swimming and figure skating? Indeed, very interesting, the goalposts are also a more interesting form than even Hogwarts' hoops and cricket's wickets and bails. Would be weird if gridiron, basketball, soccer or hockey had consolation points though. Like if there was a second rim 2 feet wider that gave half a goal. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The Jericho Cup, it's not big enough to have a Wikipedia article. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:43, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

April 26

Competitive gardening

I am reading here and there about a tradition of competitive gardening in Britain, but I suspect it traces farther back to other countries. We have no article on competitive gardening so there's nothing for me to refer back to on Wikipedia. My question is this: how did this "sport" arise, and why were (or are) the British so keen on it? Viriditas (talk) 02:45, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

See The Big Allotment Challenge and [35].2A00:23C5:E12F:5300:686F:8285:5E66:FB1B (talk) 11:26, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Also Britain in Bloom, which I see was based on the French Concours des villes et villages fleuris, so the UK has competition in that area, so to speak. There are also horticultural aspects of the County show, as well as more local shows and festivals in towns and villages. The Chelsea Flower Show (referenced in the previous answer) is the pinnacle of quite a large pyramid. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 12:52, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

And for the 'Formula One' of competitive gardening, you might consider Chatsworth House § Park and landscape, and its peers (pun intended). -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 12:56, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 19:43, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Note, if anyone is interested in this topic, I have been referred to Roderick Floud, the author of An Economic History of the English Garden (2019). Viriditas (talk) 19:27, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

(Lack of) mustard for New Yorkers?

Per our article on McDonald's stuff, how come their hamburger, cheeseburger +varients, and ¼pounder are al served without mustard, as the article tells us three or four times, 'in all or a large portion of the New York City region'? ——Serial Number 54129 13:08, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Every article I found chalked it up to customer preference from customer surveys in the 70s. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 15:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

This is one of those absurd takes that I will never, ever get. The taste preferences, demographics, and food choices of the New York metropolitan area have changed drastically in the last 50 years. If you were to take someone, let's say in their mid-20s, put them in a time machine, and take them back to 1970s New York and tell them to spend a day trying food all over town, virtually none of their current, 2024-taste preferences would share anything remotely similar with the 1970s. Even the pizza would taste different. Food science, additives, tastes, flavor profiles, and choices have changed so much over the intervening years, that it would be like visiting a different country. There's also the fact that while there were exceptions, food choices were extremely limited up until that point. I remember walking around the city at that time, and your choices basically amounted to steak dinner, Chinese (which bears very little resemblance to west coast Asian cuisine today), Italian, Greek, American (burgers, hot dogs, deli), and well, that was about it. Viriditas (talk) 20:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Chacun a youse gout. Clarityfiend (talk) 13:20, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

April 28

Anglo American Plc Shareholding

On your website, Wikipedia, it states that Anglo American Plc is owned by Vedanta Resources with 20% of the shares. Have the Oppenheimer's relinquished control of Anglo American? 197.90.65.132 (talk) 14:53, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

What is Anglo American Plc? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:03, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia it is "a British multinational mining company with headquarters in London, England. It is the world's largest producer of platinum, with around 40% of world output, as well as being a major producer of diamonds, copper, nickel, iron ore, polyhalite and steelmaking coal. The company has operations in Africa, Asia, Australia, Europe, North America and South America. Anglo American has a primary listing on the London Stock Exchange and is a constituent of the FTSE 100 Index. The company has a secondary listing on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange. In the 2020 Forbes Global 2000, Anglo American was ranked as the 274th largest public company in the world". It is very famous. DuncanHill (talk) 15:06, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Anyway, It looks like they were down to under 2% of Anglo in 2010. DuncanHill (talk) 15:22, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

April 29

is there a list of seamounts of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge?

I can't find one. 115.188.127.196 (talk) 115.188.127.196 (talk) 05:05, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

We have Category:Seamounts of the Atlantic Ocean but presumably they are not all on the MAR. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:01, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

May 1

Do the IBM Watson videos with the different robots still exist, or are they gone?

Over a decade ago, I once saw some videos that featured several fictional robots that were each interested in doing something that Watson could already do. In each video, one of the robots was interviewed. For example, one video showed a robot talking about how it wants to help improve air quality in Beijing, to which the interviewer responds that Beijing's smog problem is "a bit more complicated than that". In another video, another robot talks about how "Back in my day, vacuum tubes were" and I forget the rest of what it said, but I hope you get the idea. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 15:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

May 2

What is the most notable Chinese knockoff of Lucky Charms?

OP has been indef'd
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I mean specifically something that originated from China which is very similar to Lucky Charms, and is as of 2024 not illegal to trade in China. Oh and if that cereal has a wikipedia article on the English wikipedia I would appreciate it if you link it to me so I can read about it. Thank you. Blaze The Movie Fan (talk) 19:01, 2 May 2024 (UTC) Courtesy link: Lucky Charms —Tamfang (talk) 23:53, 2 May 2024 (UTC) This is an odd question because China is not known for cereal or for a culture of eating cereal. Do you mean a different Asian country perhaps? Viriditas (talk) 23:57, 2 May 2024 (UTC) No I mean China specifically. Blaze The Movie Fan (talk) 01:20, 3 May 2024 (UTC) I'm trying to picture a Chinese leprechaun. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:29, 3 May 2024 (UTC) The reactionary running dogs are after me Lucky Charms! They're communistically delicious. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:06, 3 May 2024 (UTC) They have the Mandate of Heaven! —Tamfang (talk) 17:12, 7 May 2024 (UTC) Look I don't mean to be a dick but I want serious legit answers, not jokes. Unless these are serious answers of actual products in China, and if so can someone link me to a WP article talking about either a specific cereal or cereals in general? Blaze The Movie Fan (talk) 20:19, 4 May 2024 (UTC) This website contains a listing of almost every known marshmallow cereal, so that should keep you busy for a while. I couldn't find anything in China, but I did find something within the same style in Korea made by Post (they are a version of "Mega Stuf Oreo O's"). Japan (and Norway and Austria) banned Lucky Charms due to its use of additives, and for several reasons, it doesn't look like the Chinese market is fond of cold breakfast cereals with marshmallows. However, and I think this is where you will find it if it exists, PepsiCo Quaker Oats Company has the majority (<20%) cold cereal market share in China, and they do manufacture several different Lucky Charm-like cereals. But, I could find no evidence that Quaker sells them in China. Given the Japanese ban and the closest knockoff being found only in Korea, it doesn't look good. Keep in mind, you could conceivably make your own cereal using oats and dried marshmallows. In fact, I think this is entirely reasonable. Foshan City Nanhai District Songgang Suifa Food Co., Ltd. makes similar dried marshmallow in bulk and will ship anywhere in China. If you cut them in half and add them to any cold oat cereal, it will probably taste the same as Lucky Charms. If you read the first link in this comment, this was how marshmallow cereal was invented, so you can just duplicate it yourself. "According to cereal mascot expert Topher Ellis, the very first marbit (marshmallow bits cereal) was developed in 1963 by a General Mills Vice President named John Holahan. Holahan got the idea after he chopped up some marshmallow Circus Peanuts and stirred them into a bowl of Cheerios. The first cereal to contain marbits was Lucky Charms." So just get yourself some Cheerios or Cheerios-like cereal (some versions of Cheerios-like cereals are imported from Thailand to China) and add chopped up marshmallow. Problem solved. Viriditas (talk) 20:52, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

What is the term for conscious awareness of the body?

I'm asking this question because I keep reading and hearing about this topic, yet I've never once seen anyone describe it with an appropriate clinical name, although I'm sure one exists, and I would be curious if we have an article about it here on Wikipedia. To backup a bit with an example of what I'm talking about, I was just reading about the untimely death of film editor Sally Menke in 2010. She unknowingly decided to go hiking on the warmest day of the year in September, in Los Angeles, and sadly died from complications related to hyperthermia. She had a hiking buddy at the time who realized that the weather was too warm and turned back, but Menke decided to keep going, which is thought to have led to her death.

I bring this up as an example because it's apparently quite common, in the sense that you have two people in the same environment, one who doesn't seem to be aware of the interaction between the outside climatic conditions and their body, and the existential risk this poses, and yet another person, who recognizes the risk and makes adjustments and changes to mitigate the problem and improve one's health. In this respect, I recently heard an interview with someone who survived a close brush with death, and they told the interviewer a variation on this theme that changed their perspective, and I paraphrase: "I finally became cognizant of the relationship between my mind and body." In other words, they were forced to change the way they understood their relationship with the world, as not just a mind in a body, but the synthesis of the two, allowing them to function better in the world.

My understanding is that many people have this disconnect between their minds and bodies, whether it is being aware of the dangers of hiking in high temperatures, swimming in the ocean during rough conditions, or simply not wearing sunscreen on a sunny day. One of the more common examples is someone who has a very intellectually-demanding career that eats poorly, or drinks and smokes to the point of harming themselves. What is this conscious awareness called, one that tells people "hey, don't do x, because it could harm you", that some people simply don't have or don't develop until much later? Viriditas (talk) 20:03, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I think a mindset of personal Exceptionalism can be in play. I sometimes detect this in myself in less-than-life-threatening circumstances – "Hey, this situation does X to most people, but I can probably get away with it this once."

Another factor may be that some people are just not good at interpreting internal physical sensations and relating them to their own well- (or ill-) being.

There may be established terms for these factors. Anyone? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 05:27, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Another factor may be that some people are just not good at interpreting internal physical sensations and relating them to their own well- (or ill-) being.

Yes! That’s exactly what I’m getting at. Viriditas (talk) 06:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Eating poorly, drinking, and smoking give people direct, almost immediate pleasure, so they experience positive internal physical sensations. Donuts do taste good, even while they're killing you. There is (a kind of) logic in doing those things. Can't really say the same thing for continuing hiking in what must have been unpleasant conditions. I'm not sure that eating poorly, drinking, and smoking are good analogies. And no, I don't have a name for that behaviour. Sorry. HiLo48 (talk) 07:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Some health-impairing conditions, including hyperthermia, may cloud one's judgement. Someone in a sound mind may furthermore not be fully aware of the gravity of the situation because they do not know or do not recognize the risks.  --Lambiam 14:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

"hey, don't do x, because it could harm you" is often called situation awareness. Modocc (talk) 16:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The definition given in our article Situation awareness is in a sense more general, but is about knowledge. While important for effective decision making, the objective of the decisions need not be the avoidance of harm to oneself.  --Lambiam 20:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Of course and per the article there are plenty of examples of the term being used regarding rational objectives like combat and survival situations. YMMV. Modocc (talk) 21:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I can see some overlap, but one major difference I see is that SA is often used in the context of achieving conflict supremacy over the enemy. I think what I'm talking about is much more personal and in terms of the survival of the individual. Although HiLo48 says I'm having a bad analogy day, I've seen this kind of thing also play out when I talk to people about climate change, specifically people who are on the far right. For example, it is well established that the regions in the US that are most at risk for sea level rise have the highest number of climate deniers (Galveston, Grande Isle, Mobile, Myrtle Beach, Savannah, Daytona Beach, Miami). I would assume that given the threat, these areas would have the lowest number of climate deniers, but it appears that they are more engaged in denying reality than in accepting and mitigating it. I'm sure HiLo48 is pulling his hair out over this tortured analogy (rightfully so), but I see something similar with people who go hiking in 113°F (45°C) weather, decide to swim in an ocean during a hurricane, or don't wear sunscreen on the summer solstice. My question is given two people, why does one person accept the reality while another denies it? Viriditas (talk) 21:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Pulling one's hair out may also be a sign of a mind–body disconnect.  --Lambiam 10:47, 4 May 2024 (UTC)}

If a medal, on both sides will be able to be read as > Chain of Fools! (per Conformity but heat is not in itself a symptom for when Sally Menke's buddy decided returning ) My first thought was we would have to be looking for a derivate of wikt:quale ( with the first quotation there, so nice ) following Self-Awareness possibly a Social construct. Wiktionary, however is also giving access to sensitivity. Sensibility? --Askedonty (talk) 17:51, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I think you're on to something. I myself have been accused of being an HSP, to often extreme levels. I will pursue this line of inquiry. Viriditas (talk) 22:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I have been called similar to that, true. I think it was merely coincidental or I prefer to think about it this way. But how do you wonder the why one person agrees and the other doesn't? If they are interacting, they need to singularize most often don't they? The one who knows is the cause for the other keeping on trying the other way. Remove one, the second will be looking for an other potential challenger, well kept fresh in the back of his/her mind. Sometimes that last might not exist - it would reveal itself to be only an ugly name, death, maybe, deception. --Askedonty (talk) 22:59, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, excellent point. I will spend time thinking about this. My first thought is that given the above, they are processing the same experience differently. For example, I dislike being in loud, crowded environments like a busy restaurant because I can’t hear the person next to me, and I can’t carry on a conversation. There is some research (?) that indicates this is a function of age. Younger people may not mind loud, noisy dinner environments as much as older ones. What if, in the original example, Menke and her hiking buddy were of different ages? Viriditas (talk) 23:02, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Certainly good point as well. I just can say I do not see in town the case the who knows also knows he knows and is interested to be usefull to me. I read about it in the literature. I guess it must be about building oneself an idol of it somehow. --Askedonty (talk) 00:01, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Note, I wonder if anything about the cocktail party effect is applicable here. Viriditas (talk) 23:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Proprioception? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:48, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Thermoception, including of the internal body temperature, is generally not considered a sensory modality of proprioception. Moreover, like thermoception, proprioception need not involve awareness; it can be nonconscious.  --Lambiam 08:37, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

May 3

Trump’s fake electors

Hi. Could Trump's indicted fake electors, be part of the next electoral College in their respective states, in the next election? Thank you very much. 151.57.137.28 (talk) 15:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

First I've heard of this. I'll have a read now Trump fake electors plot. 2A02:C7B:12B:6B00:6550:C89:C5B8:F933 (talk) 16:29, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Probably. See United_States_Electoral_College#Modern_mechanics for more details EvergreenFir (talk) 16:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

It is up to the individual states. Theoretically, they could enact laws barring people indicted or convicted of certain crimes to serve as electors. Other than that, I don't think any formalized rule stands in the way.  --Lambiam 19:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Interesting enough, the laws surrounding eligibility of electors seem fairly unclear to me. For example I looked at Georgia, and didn't find their laws. This page doesn't discuss eligibility requirements. [36] This [37] seems to be the requirements to be a voter/elector in normal elections rather than an elector for the electoral college. Does it also apply to electors from the EC? I found [38] which does show some states have specific eligibility requirements but very few and the most common thing seems to just be they cannot hold an office of profit in the US (including being a US Senator or House of Representatives rep), although some do require that they are eligible to vote. Did they just miss it when complying that source, or do other states not have such laws? As an aside but interesting enough, Utah is one of those states which tries to prevent faithless electors but has an exception if the candidate received a felony conviction which is something that could theoretically come up for the first time ever. Note that for any of the fake electors who were convicted, assuming the state does require them to be eligible to vote this might be enough to disqualify them since felony convictions can do so, although it can be complicated. For example those on probation in Georgia can vote in some cases [39]. Although I'm not sure if any of the fake electors has been convicted yet and how likely it is to happen before the election. (Many states do controversially have laws barring people from voting with some sort of conviction that varies depending on the state, so I find it sort of ironic that possibly many do not apply the same standard to EC electors even if their role is primarily symbolic.) Nil Einne (talk) 08:35, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

May 4

Cost of dollar bill production

Various sources say that the production of a dollar bill costs surprisingly low - around 7.5 cents in 2022 (and, depending on timeframe, around 5.4 - 6.2 cents). But what about special paper, color-shifting ink and other sophisticated anti-counterfeiting measures? Seemingly, because of them the production cost of each bill should be higher. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 15:35, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

The cost per note is probably very low due to the large number of notes printed each year: [40]. They print several billion notes per year. This Federal Reserve page shows the amount spent on printing and the cost per denomination: [41] RudolfRed (talk) 16:59, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Does it imply that the Bureau of Engraving and Printing or any other relevant body elsewhere get a sort of a discount on wholesale purchase of money paper, color-shifting ink and other perks for banknote production? 212.180.235.46 (talk) 19:32, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

The cost of producing a run of a product (such as special paper, or special ink) in a continuous operation can be split into a fixed part (the cost of setting up) and a variable part. For a short run, the fixed part may dominate, while for a very long run it becomes a negligeable part. The economically sensible thing for a producer is to offer a lower price per unit for bulk orders. It is reasonable to assume this also applies to the suppliers of the materials for the money presses. Quite plausibly, this is their economically most significant customer. See also Economies of scale.  --Lambiam 08:20, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Chicago voting system

Can someone please tell me what the voting system was in Chicago in the 1970s, before the advent of punch cards? Thanks. 2.39.110.85 (talk) 16:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Lever machines. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 03:47, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Deer hunting

Does anybody know at what point in the year deer are both seasonable and unseasonable? Rutting season, perhaps, from Fall/Atumn? ——Serial Number 54129 16:50, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Deer hunting seasons vary. Wikipedia has an article on deer hunting that will give you further information. Shantavira|^{feed me} 18:46, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

That article has two short sentences on deer hunting in my country, Australia. Doesn't mention seasons. Needs a bit of work. HiLo48 (talk) 23:49, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Australia has deer? Not native, I'm guessing. —Tamfang (talk) 17:15, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Correct. Some deer were brought to Australia fairly early after white settlement in order to give people something "British" to hunt. Those thoughtful importers also brought rabbits, foxes, and a lot of other "successful" feral pests. The biggest source of our wild deer though was probably a period in the 1970s and 80s when deer farming became a boom industry, and then, as booms often do, busted. A lot of farmers just opened their gates and let their worthless stock go. They are now causing a lot of damage in native forests. HiLo48 (talk) 02:43, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

How sex escalation works for lesbian woman, how they solve the stalemate?

I am a hetero man and I am curious about something, when talking about stuff, there are two things "I want to do X" and "I am having pleasure doing X", one example "I want to go to this restaurant" and "I am having a good time at this restaurant". Both can be true, none can be true or just one can be true (if you were forced to go to the restaurant and then had a good time there or this restaurant was the only one in town).

When talking about sex, woman need escalation and etc... to the switch "I want to do X" to be true, but when talking about lesbians both need escalation to do it, the thing is that this is a stalemate, their switch "I want to do X" is not true yet and so they wont want to escalate to turn the other person switch "I want to do X" to be true.

How they solve this stalemate? Does this happen by luck, by the fact they normal actions will be doing that for them without them even knowing or wanting to do it?179.134.97.227 (talk) 21:09, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Lost you at the "woman need escalation" bit. Viriditas (talk) 21:32, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

People in general, not only women, may need some form of sexual stimulation to be "turned on", that is, to reach a level of sexual arousal needed for sexual intercourse to be a pleasant experience. Sexual stimuli (also called "erotic stimuli") can be manifold. What works, and how strongly, is highly variable among individuals and highly dependent on their mood and physical condition at any given time. One potential source is the physical contact of hugging; while generally not erotic, it can become a sexual stimulus in contact with an attractive partner. Just seeing an attractive potential partner in a state of undress, or in a suggestive pose (even if not intended as such) can also be a stimulus, also for women. Finally, knowing or imagining that one is sexually desired can be a turn-on for either sex; this can become a mutually reinforcing virtuous cycle.  --Lambiam 08:00, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Jerry Seinfeld once said that men are like firemen: It's an emergency, and they can be ready in a few minutes. Women are like fire: It's very exciting, but the conditions have to be just right. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:46, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Just how much subject-matter expertise does Jerry Seinfeld have on being a woman? Or on being anyone but himself, for that matter? This entire discussion seems to be based around unsupported (and probably unverifiable) assumptions about how other people experience sexual desire. We can't know that. Instead, we can observe that lesbians, just like a great number of other people, initiate sexual encounters, and get pleasure from such encounters. Expecting it to be different just because they are lesbians is absurd. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:02, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

It is a well-known fact that there is a gender-related difference in the frequency of taking the initiative when it comes to sex. This may be largely cultural, but I do not think it has been established that this is entirely cultural.  --Lambiam 10:27, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Not sure if that's true. There's several relationship subs on Reddit that indicate it could be as much as 50/50 in the US and Europe, but outside of the US and Europe where women have less rights, there's definitely a bias towards men taking the initiative. There's also a bias in some Asian countries where social roles of submission are enforced. For this reason, I think it is entirely cultural. Viriditas (talk) 21:25, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I assume your last sentence is directed at the OP. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:17, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

May 5

Regarding “Daraja Tuffah”

So I was reading the article for the first stage of the Israel-Hamas war, and I came across a red link with the words in the title of this question. I did a little research, and I believe this could be referring to a location between to other locations, but it’s also highly obscure.

I also looked up the location on Google Maps, but no results were found. Can this possible mistake please be corrected? 38.23.177.112 (talk) 13:19, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

This is the reference desk. The place to suggest changes to an article is the talk page for that article, in this case Talk:Timeline of the Israel–Hamas war (7 October – 27 October 2023). Shantavira|^{feed me} 13:34, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Al-Daraj and Tuffah are two ancient quarters of Gaza City. Israeli sources refer to the local Hamas militants as the "Daraj Tuffah Battalion".^[42]  --Lambiam 16:13, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Coordinates, Please? 67.71.158.219 (talk) 22:39, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

"Daraja Tuffah" may not be an established name for a particular area. The original CNN news article using the term quotes an IDF Telegram post mentioning "the Daraj Tuffah area", characterizing it as an area "used as a terror hub for the Hamas terrorist organization". It may not mean more than "wherever the IDF thinks the 'Daraj Tuffah Battalion' can be found". Perhaps they can provide the coordinates of the over 70 targets that they struck.  --Lambiam 11:01, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

OpenStreetMap gives boundaries for both neighbourhoods,^[43][44] which appear to be contiguous.  --Lambiam 11:13, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Driving side

Are there any formal plans to switch the United Kingdom to drive on the right side or road? How likely is that the UK will drive on the right in 2050? --40bus (talk) 21:18, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

As likely as the USA adopting the metric system. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Why would they? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:43, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I would very confidently state that there are no such FORMAL plans. Formal in this sense would involve government planning for such a change. It would be hard (and pointless) to keep such a proposal secret, so, no, no formal plans. Are there any formal plans to switch the USA to drive on the left side or road? HiLo48 (talk) 23:46, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Not if the Republicans have anything to say about it. No lefty driving for them. (Also, no middle-of-the-road proposals either.) Clarityfiend (talk) 01:23, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Yet they drive on the left side of the front seat. Unless they work for the post office. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:26, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of which side a country uses, the driver is in the middle of the road so if the driver is rather bad at spacial recognition, the driver will hopefully not want to drift so far over that he or she is facing oncoming traffic. If the driver was on the side of the road, it would be easier to drift into opposing traffic without obviously noticing the threat. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 12:30, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

The UK government did look at changing in the 1960s but concluded it would be too expensive.[45] With the increased complexity of the road system, it wouldn't have gotten cheaper in the last 50 years. Hack (talk) 02:29, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

And being an island country greatly reduces the pressure from neighboring countries to harmonize road systems. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:01, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

We do have a land border with the Irish Republic, who also drive on the left. Alansplodge (talk) 11:12, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

By way of a reference, this 2011 BBC article, Could Britain drive on the right? points out some of the disadvantages, including that 10% of motorway junctions (freeway intersections) would have to be entirely rebuilt, all the road signs and traffic lights would have to be repositioned, one-way systems would need to be reconfigured, buses would all have their doors on the wrong side... It estimates the cost at £40 billion (almost 2% of our GDP). Alansplodge (talk) 11:21, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I visited Dublin once, took a taxi from the airport. Cabdriver: "Where are you from?" Me: "Sweden." "Planning to drive here?" "No." "Good! See this roundabout coming up? Most accident prone roundabout in Ireland. People come to the airport, rent a car, and this is where they realize "Oh right... Drive on the left."" Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:16, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

There are road signs warning people to drive on the correct side, near ferry terminals in England and France, e.g. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 14:01, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Speaking of Sweden, the article Dagen H describes how Sweden switched from left to right in 1967. --Wrongfilter (talk) 15:18, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Has any country switched from right to left? —Tamfang (talk) 17:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Samoa in 2009 [46]. --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:24, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

And Namibia, according to the BBC article in Alan's comment above. In 1920, following occupation by South Africa, according to our article on Left- and right-hand traffic. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 12:33, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Okinawa in Japan switched to the left in 1978: 730 (transport). —Amble (talk) 16:50, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

May 9

Random questions

1. Are there any countries that currntly drive on the left but are proposing to switch to drive on the right?
2. Are there any non-scientific newspapers in the US that use metric units in their articles?
3. How likely is that the US will have metricated at least some measurements by 2044? I hope that the US will eventually have complete metrication.
4. Why the UK and its former colonies did nor metricate as early as e.g. Spain and its colonies?

--40bus (talk) 09:37, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

1. Why would they? 3. The US already uses some metrics. 4. The UK still uses some pre-metrics. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:07, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not 'pre-metric', it's Imperial (though, to be fair, post-Empire now). -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 15:02, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Spain adopted the metric system in 1849, [47] by which time she had lost nearly all her colonies except Cuba and the Philippines. The UK retained a huge empire well into the 20th-century and had no need to conform to anybody else's standards. Times have changed however. Alansplodge (talk) 15:55, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, metric measurement was invented in France, so traditional British anti-Gallicism provided an additional barrier to its being adopted. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.175.176 (talk) 18:39, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I have thought that the metric system should have been invented in the UK. Why there was no need to invent that there? Why the French tried to decimalize everything, including time? Why Brits didn't try that? --40bus (talk) 19:55, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Speculation: The system of English units, together with the succeeding Imperial units, were legally established by Governments which were still very much working for and with (sometimes) the monarch. There was a natural tendency to conservatism and tradition. We still have a king, so we still hold by those units.

The Système international d'unités or SI units were developed at a time when the monarch was overthrown, traditions were cast aside, and all things were (theoretically) being made anew. It was an ideal time to create a rational and integrated system of measurements. It also means that Metric units are, in origin, left-wing (if not Communist) and so are still looked on askance by the USA. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 20:34, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

One might have expected the young revolutionary Americans to have felt disdain for the imperial units of the Empire whose chains they had just broken free of and a willingness to embrace the new revolutionary Continental units, but the Quasi-War stifled any possible enthusiasm. In any case, the Treaty of the Metre was concluded on 20 May 1875, signed by, among others, the USA, which ratified it in 1878. The UK followed in 1884. The adoption of the international yard and pound ensures exact interconvertibility of measures of length and mass between imperial units and SI units.  --Lambiam 06:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Just a reminder that it's confusing and incorrect to refer to United States customary units as "imperial units". In particular the gallon is significantly different; this was an issue for Americans buying gasoline in Canada before Canada started pumping liters. (My dad, an engineer, used to call US customary units "English units", but never "Imperial".) --Trovatore (talk) 06:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Good point. When I was in grade school, we called it the "English system". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

When the Fench worked on a new, international system of measurements to replace all national and regional systems in use at that time, they invited to UK and USA to join them in the effort. Initially, they indeed cooperated, as the UK and USA also saw the advantages of a common system. Later, they backed out. The French continued their effort, now only together with some smaller nations. They didn't unilaterally impose the metric system on Europe. The Dutch, who had just kicked out their stadtholder (who didn't mind, as he very much preferred playing croquet in the UK over ruling a country), voluntarily adopted the metric system at the same time as the French. Parts of Switserland followed soon. Maybe no coincidence that those were two countries without a monarch. PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:44, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Metric system § History of the current metric system claims that the UK ignored invitations to participate. Should that be a bit more nuanced, or did they stop cooperating before anything actually got done?

Incidentally, Anglo-French Survey (1784–1790) (the effort to link London and Paris observatories by triangulation and measurement, which preceded metrication) expresses all lengths in feet, to two decimal places (about 1⁄8 inch). To my eye the article is rather Anglo-centric; did the French records disappear during the Revolution? and what units did the French use? -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 10:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The Survey was based on an effort cooperative, yet not entirely concomitant. On the French side Gaspard de Prony visited Greenwich and wrote a report and translations for the French Academie des Sciences. The unit then that had been used by French cartographers before the metric system must have been the toise, unfortunately affected by the pressure of gravity on its standard ( see the illustration for Standards units in en:Fathom) so possibly too randomly reformed, around the 1670's already. --Askedonty (talk) 17:11, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

4) Nelson. DuncanHill (talk) 19:57, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Many of the former British colonies metricated pretty soon after independence. PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

May 10

Instagram stars

How old are Kristina Musatova and Jessgotjugs? 176.200.133.219 (talk) 11:16, 10 May 2024 (UTC):

"Musatova was born on August 6, 1995, in Russia." Wikipedia will not allow a direct link to the source (blacklisting), but you can find it on starktimes.com using the search box. No idea how reliable the source is. 41.23.55.195 (talk) 13:32, 10 May 2024 (UTC)