Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 June 17

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June 17

Meaning

What is "Timboism": [1]?174.3.103.39 (talk) 02:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

An old bit of vandalism from Sept. 7, 2007. I've switched it back to "Josephinism". Clarityfiend (talk) 03:03, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Cunjevoi

I came across the word "cunjevoi" in my weekend reading, and it naturally excited my interest. I can't quite decide whether it's incredibly ugly or quite beautiful. Anyway, when I had a chance I decided to look it up. The text where I came across it was referring to it as a sea-squirt, but when I checked Wikipedia, it redirected me to a rainforest plant, Alocasia brisbanensis. How odd, I thought. So I googled it and discovered it refers to both a sea-squirt Pyura stolonifera, and to two species of plant of the Alocasia family, related to each other but obviously not to the sea-squirt. So, I removed the redirect and wrote a bit of stub about "cunjevoi".

I'm now wondering if there are any other words in English that can refer to living creatures from widely different parts of the biological world. Such as a bird and a plant with the same name, or a fish and an insect with the same name. That sort of thing. There are probably many examples, but I can't readily think of a single one other than cunjevoi. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

See Periwinkle. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:20, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

See Roach. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:33, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

See Marten and Martin (bird). -- Wavelength (talk) 04:43, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

See Weaver and Weever. -- Wavelength (talk) 05:33, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

See Pansy and Junonia. -- Wavelength (talk) 06:45, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

See Beetle and Betel. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:53, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

See Creeper. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

See Darter. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

See Glider (disambiguation)#Wildlife. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:05, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

See List of animal names and sort by "Young". -- Wavelength (talk) 17:10, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

OT: Cunjevoi could do with a pronunciation helper. Is the first syllable the same as in country? Is the last syllable the same as the first in voyage? Steewi (talk) 23:58, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I honestly have no idea, Steewi. My gut feeling is exactly what you suggest, but since I've never heard the word pronounced, I could be wrong. -- JackofOz (talk) 09:29, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

See Pink (disambiguation): in species. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:04, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

You can try using Wikipedia:Category intersection with Category:Disambiguation and Category:Organisms.

-- Wavelength (talk) 18:33, 17 June 2009 (UTC) ------------ I have not done so. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:04, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Also locust (disambiguation) --ColinFine (talk) 23:21, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

The kiwifruit was named after the kiwi, but is commonly shortened to "kiwi" in at least some countries, so "kiwi" is now an example. --Anonymous, 05:17 UTC, June 18, 2009.

See Skipper. -- Wavelength (talk) 06:05, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Wow, lots. Thanks, all. -- JackofOz (talk) 09:29, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

@ Wavelength. Particular thanks for all the links you provided. Just on Wikipedia:Category intersection, though - it looks to me as if it's only ever been a proposal, not a feature that's ever been made available to editors. No? -- JackofOz (talk) 22:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

You are right. Apparently, it lacks even the functionality it had before. -- Wavelength (talk) 00:12, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

arabic sentence

" اكتب لالعربية بسبب...اريد ان ادرس اللغة العربية."

In English, if you'd be so kind? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.9.224.241 (talk) 03:34, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I write in arabic because... I want to learn the arabic language. Wrad (talk) 03:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

ah. very good. Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.9.224.241 (talk) 03:51, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

喂

I was surprised to find that 喂 (ㄨㄟˋ) is officially listed in the dictionary as a fourth tone character, as almost everyone I have ever spoken to over the phone in Taiwan clearly pronounces it as ㄨㄟˊ. Does anyone else think that Chinese people generally use a rising tone when picking up the phone, or is it just me? Aas217 (talk) 04:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

nah, it ain't just you. Mct mht (talk) 06:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

喂, Wèi, is pronounced with the fourth tone in its primary meaning, which is somewhat equivalent to the English "Hey!", i.e. to catch a person's attention.

When answering the phone, most people tend to give it a rising inflection, reflecting the questioning nature of the speech, just as an English speaker would (often) say "hello?" with a rising tone when answering the phone. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 07:10, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I recently heard a young Asian woman in Hong Kong pronounce it most distinctively as 「why」. I have no idea what accent that might be. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:46, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone even use that kind of Chinese spelling system (ie. "ㄨㄟˋ") anymore? It's been largely replaced by Pinyin as far as I know. ~AH1^(TCU) 23:34, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Zhuyin is mainly used in Taiwan while pinyin is mainly used in China. F (talk) 05:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. In Taiwan, the replacement of Zhuyin by pinyin was hampered by political disagreement on which scheme of pinyin to use - though as of 2009 Hanyu pinyin has become mandatory and will, according to the government, gradually replace the previous systems.

To be noted, though, is that Zhuyin was always a Chinese-language gloss - to indicate the pronunciation, especially to students. It is not a romanisation and not an alternative script. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:38, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Line of speech

What is "Line of speech" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kumarjeetsahela (talk • contribs) 07:20, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

It would help to have some context, but this usually refers to one line of the script of a play, film, etc.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:29, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Comma usage

Is the comma between 'histones' and 'which' supposed to be there?

HEP G2 cells were treated with compound 3 at a sub-toxic concentration 48, 24 or two hours before acid extraction of histones, which was timed to occur as cells reached ~70% confluence.

Thanks. ----Seans Potato Business 12:04, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I think it's like My mother gave me the nickname "Johnny Boy," which really made me angry., which is an example in the comma article. Right? ----Seans Potato Business 12:06, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I believe it's a relative clause, so the comma's useful. Leave it out, and certainly in my mind it suggests that it is the acid extraction of histones at ~70% rather than the one that happened at ~35% or whatever, if you catch the distinction. Here are two similar (IMO) examples:

• I caught the bus, which was the 93A
• I caught the bus which was the 93A

In the first the bus you caught happened to be the 93a (it is the fact you caught the bus that is important); in the second, you catch the 93a bus, rather than the 70b or 66 or whatever. I believe teh word 'restrictive' might come into a proper English explanation, but I wouldn't like to comment. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 14:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

True, but not relevant to the question, because the construction is subtly different. The antecedent of 'which' is not 'the histones', or any other object mentioned in the previous clauses, but the (event referred to by) the whole clause. (Some people frown on this construction in formal writing). I don't think there's any way that it can be restrictive, so the comma is required.

Very often, a good test for whether a comma is needed is to read the sentence aloud (with the intended meaning if it is ambiguous), and see where you do pause, and what happens to the pitch of your voice just before. --ColinFine (talk) 23:31, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

"The things you gave your life to"

In If—, some verses say:

If you can ...

watch the things you gave your life to, broken,

and stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools;

What do "the things you gave your life to" exactly mean?

1. Your lifework, your achievements (fortune, fame, business...)?
2. Some higher ideal or community you were dedicated to (e. g. type of government, peace of your time, religious fold...)?

--KnightMove (talk) 13:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Anything might describe as your 'life's work' is what I've always believed, be that wealth, fame, peace in the world, spiritual completeness etc. Kipling's means that if you can have everything that you've ever achieved wiped away, and do it all again without feeling bad, then you're a better man for it. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 14:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Secret Letter

Hello! Can anybody translate that secret letter on http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200802/200802210015.html into English, or better into German? Thank you very much! Doc Taxon (talk) 16:10, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

大德國大皇帝陛下： 　　朕惟比來德韓交際日進、友誼日密，朕切喜，且望永遠有賴於貴邦扶助愛護。不意時局大變，強鄰之侵逼日甚，終至奪我外交權、損我自主政。朕洎舉國臣民無不慟憤欝悒，呼天泣血。茲將苦衷仰佈於陛下，萬望垂念交好之誼及扶弱之義，廣議於各友邦，設法保我獨立國勢。俾朕及全國臣民含恩頌德於萬世。是所切祝。 　　 　　 　　 　　　光武十年一月　日在慶運宮 　　　　陛下之良兄弟 　　　　（花押）皇帝御璽

Your Majesty the Kaiser of Germany:

It is my pleasure to write to you for the sake of improving German-Korean relations and establishing a closer friendship, and [I] hope [Korea} can always rely on the assistance and protection of your noble confederation. The unexpected shifts in the current state of affairs, with [our] stronger neighbor's invasive presence growing by the day, has resulted in the usurpation of our [ability] to conduct foreign affairs, and has damaged Korea's sovereignty. I, along with my ministers of state and the common people, are all overcome with utmost grief. As [I] relate this terrible events to your majesty, it is with unlimited hope I beseech you with the sincerity of [our] friendly relations and the virtue of aiding the weak, foment discussion amongst allies, and establish a ruling that will preserve Korea's independent status. I, along with my ministers and people, will praise your potency for countless generations.

With regards,

11th year of Guangwu in the Qingyun Palace (don't know how these are pronounced in Korean) Your Majesty's true brother (Hua Ya) Imperial Seal

Not the best translation, but I'm not able to throughly edit it at this point.

Aas217 (talk) 19:48, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I would amend the first part (朕惟比來德韓交際日進、友誼日密，朕切喜) as: "We observe the relations between Germany and Korea becoming deeper by the day, our friendship becoming closer by the day; this pleases us."

And the latter part of the third alst sentence (設法保我獨立國勢) as: "find ways to preserve our independent status". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 22:22, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

"All overcome with utmost grief" literally reads calling out to the heavens and weeping blood. F (talk) 05:34, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't it say the first month of the 10th year? The era name 光武 is romanised as Gwangmu and the palace 慶運宮 is Gyeongun-gung F (talk) 05:44, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

So much for the plead for help eh. The tone is arguably beneath a head of state. Kinda funny that the Korean emperor didn't use Korean and apparently was perfectly fluent in Chinese. Mct mht (talk) 03:22, 18 June 2009 (UTC) I would have translated 大德國大皇帝陛下 as 'Your Majesty The Emperor of Greater Germany'. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 06:43, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't completely agree. "大" is an honorific for any country or dynasty, and 德國 and 大德國 do not necessarily carry the same distinction as Germany and Greater Germany. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 07:28, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I do understand that, but given the time frame in which this letter seems to have been written, it would make sense. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 07:53, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with PalaceGuard, 大 here clearly is an honorific, used twice for parallelism in the address. Aas217 (talk) 11:39, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Do we know for sure that the writing is in Chinese and not Hanja? ~AH1^(TCU) 23:32, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't matter, it translate the same anyway. F (talk) 05:34, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

U and V

Is it true that U and V are interchangeable in latin? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.90.144 (talk) 17:18, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

no, in part only! In old Latin scripts the "u" is written as "v", but not vice versa! Doc Taxon (talk) 17:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

(e/c) The letter U did not exist in Latin at all. Only in the Middle Ages the original letter V split into U and V. — Emil J. 17:38, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok, but in modern usage it's not usual to interchange them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.90.144 (talk) 18:07, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

It's not that U and V are interchangeable, or one or the other letter didn't exist; they had an "oo" sound and a "w" sound, and used the same letter for both, since they didn't really distinguish between the uses of that letter as a consonant and as a vowel. There happened to be two ways of writing that letter, in various styles of Latin handwriting, throughout almost 2000 years. In English, and other languages, the two different shapes later became assigned to two different sounds, and another letter was invented for the "w" sound. Latin did not have a vee sound, although it's customary today to write the consonant as "v" and the vowel as "u", and to pronounce them the English way (unless you are overly pretentious). We have some small articles on Latin writing systems, Roman square capitals, rustic capitals, Roman cursive, etc. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:25, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok thanks again, but I'm still not entirely clear. If a word, such as a name, is usually spelt ending with a "u", but in one instance is seen with a "v" instead of a "u", this is incorrect, right? I mean, in the very least that's not how it's spelt on the birth certificate. This is today I'm talking about btw, not ancient times —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.90.144 (talk) 18:54, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

ps: I think I've confused things by saying "in latin" in my original question. What I meant was, the latin alphabet, but this is for modern day usage —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.90.144 (talk) 19:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Can you tell us the language or the country or both? -- Wavelength (talk) 19:08, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

In Spanish, people will write things like "VNIVERSIDAD..." (instead of UNIVERSIDAD) in building inscriptions, to give the building a touch of resemblance to ancient monuments [of Classical times, whose inscriptions employed the Roman square capitals]. I guess the same can happen with English inscriptions. Pallida  Mors 19:30, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, for example, there's the Hovse System at Caltech, where you will also find a building inscribed "DANIEL GVGGENHEIM GRADVATE SCHOOL OF AERONAVTICS", which I insisted on pronouncing with modern "V" sounds. -- Coneslayer (talk) 19:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh, sure, that happens all the time. At the University of Toronto, the classics and medieval studies departments are in the old "HOVSEHOLD SCIENCES" building. (Across the street is the "ROYAL ONTARIO MVSEVM".) As for the original question, a name ending with a "u", but in one instance is seen with a "v"...well, we'd have to know what name and what language, I think. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:58, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Occasionally, a word differs from one language to another by only one letter (for example, Bulgarian lev, Romanian leu, Moldovan leu), and this might be such an instance. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:11, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know of a modern language where 'u' and 'v' are interchangeable (monumental inscriptions as mentioned above are deliberately non-standard) but there might be examples, particularly for names. I can think of some similar examples: there are towns in Germany which are written with 'j' where one would expect 'i'; and in Swedish 'w' (which is not normally used at all) is sometimes used as a variant of 'v' in names. --ColinFine (talk) 23:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I have searched through a book of given names and extracted the following pairs of names: Eugenia, Evgenia; Paula, Pavla; Aluin, Alvin; Eduard, Edvard. In each pair of names, the two spellings are variations (among others) of the same basic name. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:50, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

As an aside: trve meaning true, is used by some people. I think it's a 1337 death metal Germany kinda thing, but a WP search shows some old (mostly 1600s, 1 1800s) books/articles spell it like this. Aaadddaaammm (talk) 07:10, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Not a Latin language, but in Pinyin for Mandarin, there is no letter "v". Instead, the letter that comes after u is ü. ~AH1^(TCU) 23:26, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

@Wavelength - but while 'Eugenia' and 'Evgenia' are obviously ultimately forms of the same name, in English they would be pronounced differently, and so regarded as different names. Do you know a language in which these pairs are synchronically regarded as the same name? --ColinFine (talk) 23:31, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

As I understand your question, I do not know such a language with certainty, although I suppose that Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish are possibilities. -- Wavelength (talk) 00:18, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, Colin's answer would hold true for the Scandinavian languages as well. decltype (talk) 00:31, 19 June 2009 (UTC)