Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2015 February 24

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February 24

Introduction of serfdom in Russia

When was serfdom introduced in Russia? Our article History of serfdom says "Serfdom [in] Eastern Europe [...] became dominant around the 15th century." (no citation), while Ivan Grozny#Domestic policy states (also without citation) that it was he who introduced "the first laws restricting the mobility of the peasants, which would eventually lead to serfdom." Which one is it, or is the truth somewhere in the middle? — Sebastian 06:20, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

See Yuri's Day for the answer. --Ghirla^-трёп- 14:48, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

It's possible to have serfdom without laws codifying it, although I don't know if this happened in Russia. StuRat (talk) 06:28, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

That's true, but the two claims are still contradictory, the second saying the codes led to the already allegedly dominant serfdom. I also don't know which one is lying, but it sure isn't neither. Could be both. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:44, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Or wait, no, could be neither. There really is no limit on what counts as "around the 15th century". Depends how far back you stand to look at it. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:46, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

This astute observation has the potential to greatly simplify my life. Henceforth, when anyone asks me where anything is, I can always reply "around here", considering that the earth itself shrinks to a Pale Blue Dot when seen from our solar backyard. — Sebastian 07:23, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I've been saying for years that there is always a bigger picture. My life quest is to discover what the Universe looks like from the outside looking in. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:00, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Fitting to the topic, I already used this new insight here for Boris Godunov.— Sebastian 08:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

"Eastern Europe" is a bit more defined, but also wiggle room there. It definitely isn't exactly the same as "Russia". InedibleHulk (talk) 06:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

This sentence was added as part of this big edit by an IP account who did no other edit. — Sebastian 07:23, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Should certainly be taken with a grain of salt. Or just taken out. Might be true, but still original research. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:40, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Forms of serfdom were very common all over Medieval Europe. People could actually be regarded as the property of a landowner or they were bound to the land they were working on without owning it. It's not an exclusively Russian phenomenon, so it may not be all that relevant when exactly it was 'introduced'. There is a short article about the subject in Dutch Wikipedia: nl:Lijfeigenschap --Judithcomm (talk) 08:39, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps the Ivan the Terrible article refers to the so-called second serfdom, which we don't currently have a separate article on, but is mentioned in our History of serfdom aticle, two paragraphs down from the one quoted by Sebastian. — Kpalion^(talk) 10:07, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Dear OP, we have an article Serfdom in Russia, which should tell you everything you ever wanted to know about this topic! — Sebastian 05:39, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Wow, thanks a lot! It does answer my original question. Strange, though, that it doesn't mention the "second serfdom". — Sebastian 05:39, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Because there was no such thing in Russia. --Ghirla^-трёп- 07:23, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

accuracy of Swedish image?

Toron-troll strikes again. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I came across <link removed> on the internet. I am planning to travel Sweden sometime, but is it true that it has become very dangerous due to the crime of immigrants? 74.14.49.84 (talk) 14:07, 24 February 2015 (UTC) Sweden is a safe country. I see your IP is Canadian. Sweden has less than half the Canadian murder rate at List of countries by intentional homicide rate. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:14, 24 February 2015 (UTC) That image and story is apparently making the round in right-wing racist circles. Sweden has an intentional homicide rate of 0.7/10000. For comparison, the UK has 1.0, the US has 4.7, and Jamaica has 39.3. Sweden is an extremely safe country by international standards, and there is no evidence that this is currently changing. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:21, 24 February 2015 (UTC) This part of the world, Scandinavia and Finland, is the safest and the only truly democratic in the entire world, the one which holds all the best records, best education, best life expectancy, best health, lowest road deaths, lowest criminality, etc. Of course it's not perfect, perhaps they didn't handle some new things too well, still, Sweden is one of the four or five safest destinations in the entire world. Akseli9 (talk) 14:53, 24 February 2015 (UTC) Do you include Norway in that group, where mass murderers are allowed to go free while still just middle-aged? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:03, 24 February 2015 (UTC) Norway has a typical intentional homicide rate of 0.6/100000, even below that of Sweden (Breivik more than trebled that rate for 2011). So whatever you think about the Norwegian way of handling murderers, it seem to work roughly 8 times better than the US system for protecting citizens. ---Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:11, 24 February 2015 (UTC) I wonder if this our old friend, the racist troll from Canada, using yet another IP address? RomanSpa (talk) 15:20, 24 February 2015 (UTC) Very likely. Paul B (talk) 16:14, 24 February 2015 (UTC) Bingo. A tip of the "hat" to you all for pointing that out. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC) Even "unsafe" destinations are not that horrid for short stays where one avoids any remotely dangerous situations. Jamaica is a wonderful place if one has common sense. If one utterly lacks common sense, no place is absolutely safe. (editorial commentary) Collect (talk) 16:48, 24 February 2015 (UTC) I have removed the OPs link. A quick search shows that even racist sites acknowledge some of the claims about the victim (in particular, being the person in some Youtube videos) are untrue. While WP:BLP may not apply, we still shouldn't be allowing trolls to link to false claims about people. Nil Einne (talk) 13:49, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

You seem to have ignored the point made at the head of this page: 'Do not edit others' comments'. Would you mind reposting the link as I want to follow it. (And no, I a not Canadian or affiliated with the original poster.) 86.180.122.180 (talk) 10:18, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

You can go through the history if you want (since the IP signed, it's trivial to check what they posted). Please don't readd it since as I said it makes untrue claims, even if the person is no longer living there's no reason why such untrue claims should be something we are linking to. The removal of such links is well supported by wikipedia policy and guidelines, whatever the header may say. I could delete the entire question if it would make you feel better, but I'm not sure that's really necessary. Nil Einne (talk) 11:24, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

chinese story children's fiction

I remember there was children's book I used to read back in my elementary school days. The book was about Chinese boy twins and they had long names which made it funny. The story would have one of the twins fall in the well and I forgot the rest. I also forgot the name of the story. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.16.245 (talk) 19:12, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Tikki Tikki Tembo Daniel(talk) 04:21, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that one. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.16.245 (talk) 17:29, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Being a person of Chinese descent myself, I find the synopsis of the book disrespectful and ignorant of the Chinese language. Most, if not all, Han Chinese given names contain one or two logograms (aka characters), and Han Chinese family names are always one logogram. Of the Chinese given names and family names, there are numerous foreign transliterations, most of which are simply pronounced with one syllable for the family name and one or two syllables for the given name. There has never been a time in Chinese history when people used lengthy names, as that book suggests. If you read about the history of Han Chinese family names, then you'd find out that all of them started out as one-character names. Part of the beauty of the Chinese language lies within its succinctness, as indicated by the four-character idioms and classical Chinese poetry. Another fact about the Chinese language is that it is tonal, in sharp contrast to Japanese. Foreigners from non-tonal languages (i.e. native Japanese speakers) may struggle a bit mastering the tones. Tone, context, and regional dialect are the key to understand a given sentence. The fact that the Chinese language is tonal may contribute to the shortness of Chinese names. In contrast, the Japanese language is non-tonal, and so you'd find more multi-syllable names. 140.254.136.178 (talk) 14:54, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Russia

Throughout Russia's history as a polity, in chronological order, at the national level, what are the legislatures it has had? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C541:CC60:852A:86F6:9EC2:1BCF (talk) 21:57, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

You might get some of your answers if you read Russia#History. Dbfirs 22:31, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Also see Duma, Governing Senate, Congress of People's Deputies of the Russian Federation, and Federal Assembly of Russia. StuRat (talk) 23:41, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Also Veche and Zemsky Sobor. The Senate (a judicial body) should be replaced with State Council (Russian Empire). Don't forget Russian Constituent Assembly. --Ghirla^-трёп- 07:17, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Those links are useful, but I was kind of hoping for a convenient list in one place.2602:306:C541:CC60:852A:86F6:9EC2:1BCF (talk) 03:01, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Is here not one place? --Jayron32 15:21, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for the complaint. I should have been more patient.2602:306:C541:CC60:852A:86F6:9EC2:1BCF (talk) 15:28, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

"Dear Lord, grand me patience... and I want it right now!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:54, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

That quote would be grand, had you said grant. StuRat (talk) 16:15, 25 February 2015 (UTC)