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The Signpost: 19 December 2011

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My Sincere Wishes For This Festive Season

		★*★*★*★*★*★*★*★* Merry Christmas And Happy New Year 2012 *★*★*★*★*★*★*★*★
		I Wish You And Your Family A Merry Christmas And A Happy New Year 2012. May The New Year Bring Much Happiness, Prosperity, Peace, And Success In Your Life. I Am Very Happy To be Part of Wikipedia And To Have Great Friends Like You. Cheers. - From A Big Fan of ----> Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:27, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. You too --Senra (talk) 17:36, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

You are welcome and thank you. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 17:41, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

your post at the resource exchange

Hi Senra,

I just wanted to follow up on your post at the resource exchange. Are you still looking for additional papers or can I mark it as resolved? Thanks, GabrielF (talk) 18:10, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

My apologies. I have marked all my entries in WP:RX as resolved --Senra (talk) 18:21, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Russian gun at Ely

Hi, managed to locate the book, but unfortunately there's insufficient detail to produce an article. At the back of the book is an incomplete listing of captured Russian guns brought to this country after the Crimean War, and put on display. There seem to be two types, those on wooden carriages, and those on iron. Some were scrapped during WW2. The author has made drawings of the markings on the trunnions of the guns, including that at Ely, which is---

A Russian iron gun on an iron carriage, the carriage itself previously being mounted on a heavy iron traversing slide- the whole structure being known as the Systeme Venglov 1853 (page 147). Chiselled into the ends of the trunnions of the gun is the "vital data"; the serial number, name of factory and director's name on one side, and the calibre, weight and date of manufacture on the other (page 187). The gun was cast at the Alexandrovski factory in 1802, the factory's director being Charles Gascoigne. The serial number is 8726. The calibre is 30 pounder (sic) (mark may possibly be "funt", which is the equivalent of 14 ounces). Weight is 252 poods, or 81.2 cwts. "Cannon: the conservation, reconstruction and presentation of historic artillery" by Austin C. Carpenter, Halsgrove Press, Tiverton, 1993, ISBN 1 874 448 02 7 Ning-ning (talk) 23:12, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

This is superb information which will go into the article. Question: is the paragraph "A Russian iron ..." through to "... or 81.2 cwts" a quotation from Carpenter (1993) or your interpretation from my photographs? --Senra (talk) 23:49, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

(Just recording, for my own benefit, the gun carriage plans comment you made a while ago, Ning-ning, as I intend putting it in the article unless you beat me to it) --Senra (talk) 00:07, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

It's not a quotation, but a "patching together" of Carpenter's comments (e.g. captions to photos). Carpenter refers to both Systeme Venglov and Venglov System- maybe the latter is preferable in lieu of the original Russian name. My use of "calibre" is wrong; Carpenter uses the abbreviation pdr, rendered elsewhere in the book as pounder, this being the weight of shot the gun is capable of firing (I assume roundshot). I haven't been able to identify the symbol used on the trunnion, but earlier Russian guns were classified in funt, so Carpenter's use of "pounder" may be doubtful. There were close links between the Russian gun foundries and the Carron Company which may have suggested to him that it was the British pound; however the total weight is definitely given in poods and not cwt. (original research warning!) the pillar at the back of the cannon, which looks like a pepper grinder, is a replacement of an adjusting screw used to control the elevation of the gun (end of or). I'll leave the addition to you- I'll make a mess if I do it! Ning-ning (talk) 00:34, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Well I never! The 'seduction of' Charles Gascoigne from "Gascoigne, Charles". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (online ed.). Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/40411. (Subscription or UK public library membership required.) though the ODNB says that "in 1805 Gascoigne was made technical director of the Aleksandrovsk manufacture and installed its first steam engine" --Senra (talk) 00:43, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

@Ning-ning: please check my prose and attributions as you have the source :) See also this image of another "Venglov pattern 1853" carriage which is noted as a 36 pdr. You said "I assume roundshot (round shot?)"; I am interested in trying to confirm this. Did they use different shot depending on the job in hand? In which case, does Carpenter (1993) say "usually round shot"?--Senra (talk) 14:01, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Done a brief check, but will give it a closer peruse later. Only comment to make at the moment is that the link to eBay will go dead quite soon- the images are cleared out from eBay's server after 30 days or thereabouts. Ning-ning (talk) 19:14, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip. eBay page has now been archived --Senra (talk) 19:36, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

(od)I will try and get another source tomorrow (Friday) on this. Carpenter doesn't define the term "pounder"- I believe it to refer to the putative weight of the largest solid ball that can be fired from the gun, i.e. round rather than canister or bar etc. The examples he gives of Russian guns form a series, 18, 24, 36 and 56 with the Ely gun the odd one out at 30! Dates range from 1799 to 1842, so the Ely gun is the second oldest. The pair brought to Leicester were taken to their resting place with much pomp, so I expect a trawl through the Ely papers circa 1856 onwards may produce something. As far as British guns were concerned, the 1850s and 1860s were a period of great experimentation and development, rendering the earlier style of cannon obselete. Some were converted to rifled muzzle-loaders, or breech-loaders by drilling a hole at the back for loading a shell, but plenty of others were turned into bollards, or pivots for larger guns. The Russian guns appear to be typical muzzle-loaders of 18th century style, and possibly obselete by British standards of the 1820s let alone the 1850s. so it's a curiosity as to why someone loaded up a ship with them and brought them back- with their carriages, so it couldn't have been as ballast or for the scrap value, or for their technical interest. Must have been a propaganda campaign, after an unpopular and badly-managed war. Ning-ning (talk) 22:40, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, whilst the library has a good range of books entitled Sexing the pistol: A feminist critique and others, it has nothing on technical matters. Been through the Crimean War section- again nothing relevant, though I now have an inkling the guns don't come from the Crimea, but from the fortress of Bomorsund, off the coast of Finland. Ning-ning (talk) 10:45, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

"And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold,

I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord."

Luke 2:10-11 (King James Version)

Wee Curry Monster talkis wishing you a Merry Christmas.

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Spread the cheer by adding {{Subst:Xmas4}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

	Season's greetings!
	I hope the holiday season is relaxing and fulfilling, and that 2012 will be fruitful for you. --John (talk) 00:27, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Hilarious

While this may be humorous to you, and while I may have missed the point, but suggesting Chris is a "pussy" for his recent actions is way beyond the pale. Of course, I could have completely misinterpreted the situation where you said he should "reflect on the privileged bit that was marginally granted to you", but in any case, I'm sure he's done that in spades, and your "pussy" comment is not required. Cheers, and happy Christmas. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:00, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Whoa! Your above comment needs to be retracted and you need to learn to read English. My comment, in full, was a WikiLove message with the caption: "A pussy to help you reflect on the privileged bit that was marginally granted to you". If you look through my own contributions log you will see that I use the ellipsis frequently and it is a perfectly valid construct. Retract your implication with immediate affect --Senra (talk) 23:07, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

::As I said, I could have misinterpreted the situation. If that's the case, then no bother, as I said above. No retraction required as I adequately caveated any misinterpretation. If I made that mistake, maybe many others would have too. By the way "you need to learn to read English" is a bit too much as well, thankfully it means I won't bother reviewing your PR request of Ely (which was next on my to do list, especially as I have local knowledge) since clearly if I can't read English, my review skills would be wasted. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:11, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

I require an immediate retraction from your conspicuous slander. Firstly you have not assumed good faith by asking me to clarify my comment; you simply came storming in here, uninvited, and put "your" words into my mouth. Secondly, you carelessly or was it maliciously mis-quoted me. You wrote "pussy". I did not; for the record, I wrote "Pussy", a capitalised word at the beginning of a sentence. Thirdly, you accused me of uncivil behaviour against another editor: "suggesting Chris is a 'pussy' for his recent actions". I did not write that. Fourthly, where did I write or even imply: "for his recent actions"? I have not done this. Your attempt to squirm your way out by claiming a caveat is weak and reprehensible. Retract your comments immediately and we will say no more about this --Senra (talk) 23:36, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

... and now you are threatening me with "thankfully it means I won't bother reviewing your PR request of Ely". I do not even know you. Dear me my friend. So this is a collegiate atmosphere is it? --Senra (talk) 23:43, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Happy new year to you, by the way. If your pesky PR remains without interest, I may take the bait in due course, as long as the G&T doesn't finish me off beforehand! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:34, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Happy New Year to you too. Sure. Feel free to peer review Ely (unless someone beats you to it <:)) --Senra (talk) 22:41, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Trying to convince one of my flying friends to release an epic aerial photo of the cathedral to Wikimedia projects. Will keep on trying....! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:53, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

That would be great. I no longer fly otherwise I would do it myself --Senra (talk) 23:01, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Pope Joan

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 04:15, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Wow

Thanks for the hard work of classifying participants at WP:ARC. Not knowing most of them, it was becoming quite a task to remember who's who and what's what.Buster Seven Talk 19:54, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I do appreciate the difficulty of parsing statements into a binary or trinary choice. It was my intention to suggest that Arbcom should review the wheel-warring issue (which you captured) but to decline the civility claim, as stated. If you think I was being unclear, I should consider rewording.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 21:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Sorry. Only trying to help and I did make a clear caveat—"The above summary is my own personal interpretation of the responses". Anyway, I re-read your post and I cannot parse it any differently. I need your help --Senra (talk) 22:06, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

No need for you to be sorry, if you don't see it the way I intended it, then the committee may not see it the way I intended. I've modified my comment. Nice work.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 23:21, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Fixed --Senra (talk) 23:29, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I must thank you also, Senra. I vividly recall your excellent analysis at I come to bury editors, not to praise them ... last year. I sincerly appreciate the large amount of work you put in to helping Wikipedia operations and also your outstanding article article work, which is second to none. Thanks very much for your dedication to the project. I was wondering if you've considered putting a totals row in your table? Just curious. Best regards. - Hydroxonium (T•C•V) 22:02, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you and totals done --Senra (talk) 22:27, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you - Hydroxonium (T•C•V) 23:51, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

It appears that the chart is to be removed though no explanation is given. I have therefore copied the chart to my user-space --Senra (talk) 14:35, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi there. I know my comment at RFAR was critical of the table you did, but I can see it must have taken a lot of work. I think in future if you want to do a chart like that, it is best done in userspace and linked to from the request, and/or added to the case pages after a case opens. To explain further why that sort of thing can be annoying, when I was an arbitrator (in 2009 and 2010) I made a point of reading the comments people made, and looking into the background of what had been going on. The actual numbers arguing for or against a case being opened factored very little (if at all) into my decisions, and I hope those of other arbitrators as well, though clearly I can't speak for the current committee. If you do keep a copy of the chart somewhere, could you make clear that my opinion (as one of the voices in the public gallery) wasn't to reject a case, but to defer it (i.e. deferred acceptance). Thanks. Carcharoth (talk) 19:48, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with civil criticism. Nothing at all. I apologise if you feel I misinterpreted your original response, which I have now read again. I feel unable to change the contents, as I had interpreted you as an admin=Yes, you had made no direct statement on Admin Issue (thus blank) nor on Civility (thus blank) and my table had no means of recording deferment, so I had recorded Case=No. Clearly, given that a significant majority of editors favour arbitration, then even if I counted you as Case=Yes, it would not make a material difference. I have since committed to providing no more updates to the chart. I hope you feel that your above posting is a satisfactory recording of the situation? --Senra (talk) 20:34, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

On this same topic, in my eyes, I have done nothing wrong. If an arbitrator is swayed by an idiot who comes along and makes counting easy for them, so be it; they can choose to ignore it very easily. For me, it has helped both myself and, I feel certain, others to see how an RfC would not have been useful here: the community is so clearly divided, no matter how the table is sorted, the closing admin would need the gift of Solomon and rhino skin, qualities I believe arbitrators should have, to make any sensible judgement <-- end of personal rant --> --Senra (talk) 20:34, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh, a request for arbitration is very different to a request for comments. If someone had taken the time to lay out a proper request for comments, this could have all been avoided. But chronic conduct like this, with minor incident after minor incident, gradually builds up until, as here, the dam bursts. Let's hope not too much gets washed away in the flood. Carcharoth (talk) 22:22, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

DYK nomination of John Fuller (college head)

Hello! Your submission of John Fuller (college head) at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Yoninah (talk) 01:07, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your work. I did a little copyediting, adding links, and found an interesting fact at the end that has no footnote. After you fix that, I can re-review the nomination. Best, Yoninah (talk) 19:34, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, we're almost there. What do you think about my alt suggestion? Yoninah (talk) 22:22, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I welcome your assistance here. Really I do. However, your ALT1 takes the focus off my intended subject as many DYK's indeed continue to do in the same way. I would therefore prefer a hook closer to the original if that is OK? --Senra (talk) 22:32, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I never understood why editors prefer a green check over an AGF. They have the same result: DYK nomination approved! :) Yoninah (talk) 12:13, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

DYK for John Fuller (college head)

Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:48, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Senra, hope you don't mind but I removed the See also section as, being so general, I can't see its point. Thanks, Ericoides (talk) 09:07, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Not a problem. Thank you --Senra (talk) 11:56, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for the barnstar and congratulations on all the work getting Ely to GA.— Rod ^talk 14:05, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Ely gallery

Hi there

I like the general edits to the Ely page but I have to confess to being greatly disappointed that the gallery has gone. As a resident of Ely I know that other residents liked it and many visitors perused the Ely Wikipedia page and enjoyed having a glimpse of modern Ely before coming here. I do think a gallery compliments the written information of Ely. People often like to see photos as well as read about a place so I do hope it gets reinstated. It's also very discouraging for someone like me (a grandmother), who isn't good with technology, to spend hours finding out how to do anything on here (such as how to post photos and using talk) and then find that most of my photography efforts have been deleted without prior knowledge. I'm pleased that three photos of mine survived on the page!

Gwendraith (talk) 18:44, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I am so sorry that you are disappointed. I liked the gallery too and your photographs are beautiful. The gallery was not removed without deep consideration and careful thought. The Ely article Talk-page contains everything I did and considered doing to the article, commencing around 15 October 2011 (old version of the article). At that time, I started the Article improvements section. This contains sub-sections such as gallery where I discuss the reason for removal of the gallery and where your gallery currently resides. You may be able to assist a request for an improved version of the lead image. Do feel free to discuss my removal rationale after reading the talk-page gallery sub-section. In addition, as stated in that sub-section, we still need images of listed buildings within the Ely area which you can help with. Once again, I am sorry that you are disappointed --Senra (talk) 19:31, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

For the record, I am a grandfather :) --Senra (talk) 19:46, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Senra asked me to comment about the use of an image gallery in the Ely, Cambridgeshire article. The use of galleries in any articles is discouraged by WP:IG and I have never seen an article achieve GA or FA status with one in it. Images which don't illustrate specific points in the article should be placed on Commons and a suitable link added to the article concerned, which I have now done for Ely. There are already 11 nice images in the article and there are 380 in the commons category (that is without looking in the sub categories).— Rod ^talk 20:17, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

WP:IG actually says: "However, the use of a gallery section may be appropriate in some Wikipedia articles if a collection of images can illustrate aspects of a subject that cannot be easily or adequately described by text or individual images." How can this be construed as discouragement? Ericoides (talk) 10:22, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

WP:IG starts with "Images are typically interspersed individually throughout an article near the relevant text".... and later "However, Wikipedia is not an image repository. A gallery is not a tool to shoehorn images into an article, and a gallery consisting of an indiscriminate collection of images of the article subject should generally either be improved in accordance with the above paragraph or moved to Wikimedia Commons."..."One rule of thumb to consider: if, due to its content, such a gallery would only lend itself to a title along the lines of "Gallery" or "Images of [insert article title]", as opposed to a more descriptive title, the gallery should either be revamped or moved to the Commons." Which I interpret as discouraging their use. I also have memories of being involved in GA nominations where reviewers have requested that image galleries be removed.— Rod ^talk 10:35, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Having dug a bit further I find that WP:IG used to start with galleries being explicitly discouraged, which seems to have changed, and I may be remembering the old version. The discussion at Wikipedia talk:Image use policy/Archive 11#Gallery Policy Clarification (and elsewhere) discusses similar issues and may be informative.— Rod ^talk 10:46, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you might then redact your remark above that "The use of galleries in any articles is discouraged by WP:IG" lest editors gain a faulty impression of policy. Ericoides (talk) 11:10, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I've struck through that comment, however it is still my interpretation of the wording of that policy and I still believe they are discouraged by practice in GAs & FAs. Perhaps another discussion on Wikipedia talk:Image use policy would be appropriate?— Rod ^talk 12:13, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I think it would. Thanks for your input, Ericoides (talk) 12:39, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

There is a current (last post 11 December) which you could contribute to - see Wikipedia talk:Image use policy#A clarification on image galleries.— Rod ^talk 14:37, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Happy New Year! Now, about Reculver...

Hello Senra, how are you? I hope you enjoyed yourself over the last week or so. I've worked through nearly everything I have to hand about Reculver, including most of the things you dug up for me, but you mentioned that you might be able to get sight of Newman, J. (1976), North East and East Kent (Pevsner Architectural Guides: Buildings of England), Harmondsworth: Penguin, p. 430 after 3 January: about the 19th century "new" Reculver church at Hillborough, by "Georges Clark", I've turned nothing up on him, despite searching for variations (e.g. George S Clerk!), so it'd be wonderful if you could give me the full spec on that from the Pevsner series book, if only so I can cite it confidently? Also, while I'm here, the section Reculver#Parramatta cathedral is looking really out of place now, to me anyway: it's not a local "Religious site" or "Landmark"... Though, I do think the info belongs - any thoughts? Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 20:04, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm fine. Sober, just about. I will indeed obtain the photocopy of PEVSNER on Tuesday and then send you a copy (you will need to email me first). I am not sure what to do about St John's Cathedral, Parramatta. I read through Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements again without being able to determine where the best place for it is. I do feel it should be in the article. Consider at the end of the "Ruined church of St Mary" section. Also consider creating the St Johns Cathedral, Parramatta article, which I note does not exist (or at least I cannot find it) although Parramatta, New South Wales does exist --Senra (talk) 20:26, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Good for you! Yes, a bit rougher than usual myself today, but they tell me it's the time of year! ;) Thanks for that about Pevsner - you mean me to email you via "E-mail this user" at left? No problem, very grateful. Putting Parramatta at the end of "Ruined church..." as you suggest seems to be about the only idea with legs, I think, glad you agree that it belongs - an article on St John's is an idea, though I'd be hard pressed to do it justice for a bit! Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 22:06, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Yups. Hit "email this user". It is the only way I know how to send you a scan of the photocopy (when I get it) --Senra (talk) 22:17, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Will do, thanks! Nortonius (talk) 01:27, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

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Ely Cathedral lantern

Just found some photos of the lantern- I've uploaded a couple, but the quality is a bit low. This is a view of the "doors", one of which is open. The other upload is a view of the crossing (I put nave in the title- wrong). Ning-ning (talk) 22:27, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Cool. Thank you. Did you take these yourself? --Senra (talk) 00:10, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes- a guided tour about 5 years ago. "Available light photography", on film- hence the grain. Ning-ning (talk) 06:18, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

A New Year for the DNB, and launch of "volume of the month"

See WT:WP DNB#Volume of the Month for a collaboration that I'm in the course of setting up. Everyone who signed up to the WikiProject for the Dictionary of National Biography is being notified, while there is still time to alter the way of working if need be. Charles Matthews (talk) 12:19, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Review of Transport#Roads within Ely, Cambridgeshire

I reviewed the Roads section as part of your requested peer review on WP:WikiProject UK Roads. Did anything happen about this? --Ritchie333 (talk) 17:52, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Wow! Did you? Thank you. Erm, where? No matter. I found it. I will carry out the suggestions you make. Thank you --Senra (talk) 17:56, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Did I put that in the wrong place then? --Ritchie333 (talk) 18:06, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't know. Is there a 'right' place? I guess I was expecting such reviews to be part of the Ely peer review. In any case, it is my bad. I have not been looking at my watchlist lately, so did not spot your response. Thank you. I have incorporated your changes. Your help is has been very much appreciated --Senra (talk) 18:22, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

resource request

Hi Senra,

I've uploaded the article on the Oxford Electric Bell that you requested at the resource exchange. You can find a link to the article on that page. Best, GabrielF (talk) 20:54, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Got it. Thank you --Senra (talk) 21:05, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 04:59, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Hello, Senra. You have new messages at Deor's talk page.
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Please comment on Talk:2011

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:2011. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 23:15, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Worst mentor ever...

Sorry for my absence. I just wanted to say that I thought you did a good job on the Reculver review. AIRcorn (talk) 02:33, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Not a problem. If you have not already done so, would you stamp your approval (or otherwise of course) on the GA talk page. I hope everything is OK with you --Senra (talk) 11:18, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I'll second Aircorn's comment there if I may, though hopefully that's obvious from comments I've already made! ;) Just so's you know, I'm holding off from putting Reculver up for peer review until I've had sight of a couple of sources in particular, one for explicit mention of stage coaches between Sturry and Herne Bay, but especially one which describes Reculver's position as a "non-corporate member" (or "limb") of the Cinque Port of Sandwich in the Middle Ages - which will most likely help to clarify Reculver's wealth etc. before it was washed away, and, I think, would be a significant addition to the article, however limited the actual information may prove to be. At present, I have only found the barest mention of this, e.g. in Bagshaw's Directory of 1847: I'll be putting something in about that today, but obviously it would good to be able to say more! Hope you're both well anyway! Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 12:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Everything is good at the moment. I will just add that I don't think you were over zealous in your review. I would think of it more as being thorough and as long as you are reasonably flexible it is not usually a problem. I prefer to see those types of reviews than the simple tick/cross-pass/fail ones (although occasionally they are justified), and judging from the feedback I have received plus Nortonius's comment above it is appreciated more by the nominator as well. AIRcorn (talk) 22:55, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

festina lente

In haste I have created a minor mess that I would like fixing please. I have mistyped an off-wiki authors name in an edit summary and also uploaded his text after my wikified text instead of before it. Can this be fixed?

• The draft article in question User:Senra/Ely toponymy (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Diff with incorrect "AB" instead of the correct "KB" in the edit summary: [1]
• The above edit ([2]) actually contains my wikified text and should really contain the text from this later diff [3]

Is it possible to delete the text and start again?

• Contents of [4] and edit summary "Text donated by KB under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL as per email in my possession." followed by
• Contents of [5] and edit summary "Wikifying"

See also Wikipedia:OTRS_noticeboard#Ely_toponymy

--Senra (talk) 16:07, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not quite clear on what it is you're trying to do, but it sounds as if you're looking for one of two things:

• If you want the page deleted so you can start from scratch, just tag it as {{db-u1}} and someone will shortly be along to delete it.
• If you want the summary itself to be edited, you need the {{admin help}} template here, not the {{help me}} template.

Hope this helped! Dori ☾Talk ⁘ Contribs☽ 22:05, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

{{admin help}}

It does help thank you. I should have said "either/or". Deleting is not good as the page has been linked and has some history. I will keep it simple and ask an adim to change the edit summary as follows:

• Change [6] from "Text donated by AB under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL as per email in my possession." to "Text donated by KB under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL as per email in my possession."

--Senra (talk) 22:36, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but the Wikimedia software has no function to change an edit summary, and the summary in question does not meet any of the acceptable uses of revision deletion, so except for deleting the article outright, you are pretty much stuck with it. You may choose to make a small edit, e.g. adding or removing white space, with the edit summary you want such as "Correction to revision 470968069: Text donated by KB under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL as per email in my possession". ​—DoRD (talk)​ 22:48, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

OK. That is clear. Thank you. I have done as you suggest using a null edit (except for also removing hidden text) --Senra (talk) 22:57, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

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Notice of discussion at the Administrators' Noticeboard

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

Sorry for the inconvenience. Feel free to stand aside. --Langus (talk) 02:01, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Not an inconvenience. This is clearly a difficult area where it is easy to editorialise and get into difficulties. Editors need to carefully examine all the sources and then, where necessary, the readers attention needs to be drawn to the interpretation difficulties in a factual and encyclopaedic manner. Such readers can then arrive at their own conclusions --Senra (talk) 12:24, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Senra, please note Langus wishes to remove the comments about the log of the Lexington to replace it with text re-inforcing Argentina's modern sovereignty claim. He is not representing all significant viewpoints, he is trying to abuse policy to eliminate significant facts and is not presenting a WP:NPOV. The very text he demanded be inserted was inserted into the article but he has remvoed text that is perfectly acceptable elsewhere. He has not engaged in talk since 26 November, he does not edit for weeks this comes back and reverts weeks of work. All I'm trying to do is present all the facts in a neutral mannder and let the reader derive their own conclusions, Langus' edit would deny a reader significant salient facts. He reverted last night text that had been there for nearly 2 weeks and then goes straight to WP:ANI, this is gaming the system. And its always been this way since the guy started editing, please just check his contribution history - he makes everything into a battle and I'm tired of it. Wee Curry Monster talk 15:39, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

@WCM: I understand that you are "tired of it" — but stay cool. If anyone is "gaming", they will always get caught eventually. Slow reverts will not work for the benefit of any point of view. As I pointed out above, after carefully examining all sources we should include all interpretation difficulties in a factual and encyclopaedic manner. That is, neither point of view should remove material. Instead, present all points of view fairly and let the readers decide --Senra (talk) 18:16, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Your last point I support whole heartedly, that is what I'm trying to do. Wee Curry Monster talk 18:38, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

"Reverts weeks of work"?? Does not "engage in talk"?? You're underestimating Senra's memory. We were all there a few months ago when that same text was introduced, reverted, warred upon, and discussed in talk page. The idea was to use secondary sources instead of the primary ones, and you totally disregarded that.

As for the 2 weeks, well I'm sorry for moving out, next time I'll postpone that until I have no open issues left on WP...

PS: there was no need to bring this WP:DRAMA to Senra's talk page. --Langus (talk) 00:33, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Senra, apologies for cluttering your talk page. [7] and for information there was already an RFC on the same issue Talk:Falkland Islands back in June 2011. I'll leave it there. Wee Curry Monster talk 01:10, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

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Please comment on Talk:East Germany

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Resource request/Heritage Gateway

Hi Senra, I saw your resource request and thought I might be able to help with some online access, but sadly no. However, it reminded me of a Heritage Gateway search result you posted on my talk page re Reculver - I've been trying ever since to search Heritage Gateway, especially for the Elizabethan brick "gateway" at Brook Farm, near Reculver, but always get an error message. I'm wondering if you might be so kind as to try the same, at least to see if you also get an error message! No problem if not, I've been a bit stumped for sources myself lately...! Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 14:17, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Not a problem. Try this

Heritage Gateway: From the Heritage Gateway web site (no log in required)

• Select searching
• You are presented with an advanced search menu with five tabs down the left hand side (Where, What, When, Who and Resources)
• Select Where if it is not already selected
• In the Find on map box, type Reculver then select Locate. The map defaults to 1 sq km. If that is not your area of interest, expand the area as necessary
• For a general search, that is all I do. However, if yoo know what you are looking for, select and complete the other fields (What, When, Who and Resources)
• Now select search
• The gateway searches its databases and returns information. In the case of Reculver, it returned many results within 1 sq km. I linked you to the first result in the list which, under Statutory Data, is The National Heritage List for England (one result). Also have a look at the Kent HER results by selecting Kent HER followed by View all Kent HER results. All 159 of them. The 15 NMR results are also interesting.

Listed buildings: I could not find Brook Farm using the Heritage Gateway so I looked in Images of England, the listed buildings site. I found eleven listed building when searching for Reculver but none seemed related to Brook Farm to me

English Heritage: At OS grid TR2202468116 (use e.g. Grid Reference Finder to locate it) is a scheduled English Heritage ancient monument reference number: 1005153 Gateway to Brook Farm, Hillborough. Is this your Brook Farm?

I hope this helps --Senra (talk) 15:04, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Alternatively, let me know the URL you are using and the error message you are getting and I will look further into this --Senra (talk) 15:10, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Google Earth: Another technique I have found that can be illuminating is to use Google Earth's Historical Imagery feature (see this blog) to scan satellite images for ground features. WARNING: This is generally WP:OR but useful for finding features that you can then try and find reliable sources for. Different ground features can be seen at different times of the year, so search through different months of Google Earth's historical images. If you find something not covered by any sources, consider letting your local archaeology service know about it :) --Senra (talk) 15:25, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that EH anc mon ref no 1005153 is "my Brook Farm"! It's useful in that the listing exists, thanks for finding it and passing it on. When I search Heritage Gateway here, exactly as you describe, I get this error message, every time! I'm using Safari with Mac OS 10.7 (all latest versions), but I've tried replicating the search in browsers on Windows XP, with the same outcome. No idea what's going on here - I've been trying it on and off for months, in case there's some problem in onward linking to Canterbury Urban Archaeological Database. Anyway - consequently I can't "View all Kent HER results" or the "15 NMR results"! Grrr, this is very frustrating! And I'm afraid I don't follow how you got from a grid ref at the Grid Reference Finder to an EH listing - all I get when I try that is "0 results"... Sorry!

About Google Earth, yes, I've had a good old peer at that - in Street View, you can look at Brook Farm on a sunny day, then turn round and find you're in winter! But I know that's not what you mean, exactly - about communicating with archaeologists, I'm already trying that about the single most referenced item at Reculver, i.e. "Gough 2001", which is currently only available on the Internet Archive Wayback Machine, to see if they can't get it published somewhere more useful! One day maybe... Keeping my eyes open anyway, and thanks for the help. Nortonius (talk) 15:50, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

"When I search Heritage Gateway here, exactly as you describe, I get this error message, every time! ": Strange error. I tried reproducing it on a PC running W7 (Google Chrome, Safari 5.1.2 and Firefox 9.0.1) and Mac OS X 10.5.8 (Safari 5.0.6) and the iPad 2. I could not reproduce it. Everything I tried produced the results I show above. I have written to the Heritage Gateway web site via their contact us section on your behalf and asked them to look into it. I referred them to this thread. Being a techy nerd, I would ask how you are connecting to the internet. If you are using a mobile network for example (which generally use proxies of some kind) then that might be the issue. In which case, you need to contact your mobile internet provider and tell them the URL. Don't tell me how you connect in this public thread though. Anyway, let us wait and see what Heritage Gateway have to say --Senra (talk) 16:56, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

"And I'm afraid I don't follow how you got from a grid ref at the Grid Reference Finder to an EH listing": I confused you there. Sorry. It was the other way around. In the scheduled English Heritage ancient monument Gateway to Brook Farm, Hillborough which has monument reference number: 1005153 is an OS grid TR2202468116 (use e.g. Grid Reference Finder to locate it by typing the grid reference into Grid Reference Finder) --Senra (talk) 16:56, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

You're showing me up now! I've been told I have nerdy leanings, but this has revealed my limitations - after reading your latest post above, I dug out an old (2004 vintage) Mac Mini running Mac OS 10.4.11 and tried searching in Safari (4.1.3) on that, and, tadaaa! The search works fine... All I can say is - WTF?! Sorry I didn't go old-computer-hunting before and save us both the bother, but why would you/I/one?! Thanks for tipping off the website about this, as my regular workhorse desktop computer (Intel iMac, 2008 vintage) still gets a resolute "null points" from them. About my connection, it's ethernet/cable modem/cable broadband(I don't think I'm giving too much away there...?), so I don't suppose the problem lies that-a-way. I'd be wondering if it's a Mac OS 10.7 Lion compatibility issue, if it weren't for the fact that I've found it fails in Windows XP too, though I'm running that in VirtualBox on said iMac. Hmm, now I'm wondering if I touched on something there... Anyway, enough rambling from me - I owe you big time for this, call me out on it if you find the need! And, understood about the Grid Reference Finder business. Cheers. :) Nortonius (talk) 18:09, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I am going to guess that VirtualBox browses the internet via native Lion access and that said Lion access is the issue. I'm lost now, so you are on your own. You could try clearing the OS X 10.7 Safari cache (In the Safari menu, go to Preferences [Command + comma] then click the Privacy tab then click “Remove All Website Data”). Alternative, try a hard fix (Lurkers beware, Mac Lion only): Quit Safari. In the Finder, click on the Go menu, then hold the Option key and select Library. Open the Safari folder. Delete the files History.plist and HistoryIndex.sk. Usual caveats apply for these technical fixes. I was going to suggest you get a proper browser, but again, I suspect that that would use native access too and therefore suffer the same issue. Good luck with all this --Senra (talk) 19:59, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, all good guesses... But, Windows XP runs in VirtualBox through a full install of W XP, in which VirtualBox picks up on existing hardware on W XP's behalf, and the latter is instructed to connect directly to the intertubes, so I'd be surprised if it is a Lion issue, but you could well be right for all I know! I've already emptied the cache & cleared history, but don't want to lose cookies etc., I've only been accepting them from sites I navigate to myself for years, and losing them would mess up all sorts of routine things for me. Not worth it. (wot, not even for WP?! ;p) Also I tried G Chrome, but didn't like it... Anyway...! Thanks for the thoughts. :) Nortonius (talk) 20:11, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

This error has intrigued me. I am aware of VirtualBox (VirtualBox) but have never used it. I have been reading the VirtualBox manual which has generated a fundamental question related to this issue. What is your host operating system? I am guessing you are using a Mac host as support for an OS X guest appears to be experimental. In any case, if the issue can be resolved in the host (whatever it is) with the VM (VirtualBox) shutdown, then I would suggest the issue would be fixed for all guest operating systems running in the VM too. As to the issue, I have no idea. It might be as simple as updating the host OS java machine (which if the host is Apple must be done via Apple-->Software Update menu). On the other hand, it could be a more complex host firewall issue. Try (temporarily) turning the host firewall off to see if this resolves the issue. If it does, investigate further. Let me know how you get on --Senra (talk) 16:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for continuing to ponder this one! Yes, the host is Mac OS 10.7.2, and Software Update is run daily, for Apple updates and e.g. java. I have the built-in firewall off at all times, as I have proprietary security software which I manage myself: turning that off makes 0 difference, I'm afraid! :o( I've only looked at the VirtualBox manual as needed – it's nearer "tech specs" than a handy manual, IMHO, and I'd rather have both! But I can't bring myself to read the whole thing from start to finish; I have read most of it by now, but not "thoroughly". By all means prod me further on this, if you think it'll help – I'll try restarting with all off in a mo, if that helps I'll let you know asap! Nortonius (talk) 16:32, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Cambridge meetup 4 February

Page at m:Meetup/Cambridge/14. We're having the traditional glitch with the sitenotice - thought you might like the alert. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:07, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks --Senra (talk) 20:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 04:07, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Peer review limits changed

This is a notice to all users who currently have at least one open peer review at Wikipedia:Peer review. Because of the large number of peer review requests and relatively low number of reviewers, the backlog of PRs has been at 20 or more almost continually for several months. The backlog is for PR requests which have gone at least four days without comments, and some of these have gone two weeks or longer waiting for a review.

While we have been able to eventually review all PRs that remain on the backlog, something had to change. As a result of the discussion here, the consensus was that all users are now limited to one (1) open peer review request.

If you already have more than one open PR, that is OK in this transition period, but you cannot open any more until all your active PR requests have been closed. If you would like someone to close a PR for you, please ask at Wikipedia talk:Peer review. If you want to help with the backlog, please review an article whoe PR request is listed at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog/items. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:00, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Senra. You have new messages at Wikipedia:Requested templates.
Message added 14:00, 6 February 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

mabdul 14:00, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

resource request

Hi Senra,

I've uploaded one of the articles you requested at the resource exchange on the archaeology of Cambridgeshire. You can find a link to the article at that page. GabrielF (talk) 20:16, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Received and downloaded --Senra (talk) 21:03, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

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Please comment on Talk:Gopalanand Swami

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 04:03, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Senra!

I have a mate bringing me BEER shortly, so forgive the breathless style – do you fancy honing your GA reviewer skills further with an article wot I've just cooked up? Or contributing? Either way, I think it's ready, Pesky thinks it'll be – ahem – "piss-easy", Malleus has offered to review, and I mentioned your name too – thoughts? Hope you're ok! Nortonius (talk) 19:44, 15 February 2012 (UTC) p.s. Re-reading Malleus, I think he's suggesting you collaborate with me on the article, while he reviews…? Either way would be cool by me! :o)

Sure. I will help. I am a little tied in RL at the moment though should have some time coming up this weekend. Non geographical articles are outside my comfort zone, so this will do be good experience for me. I will spend whatever free time I can spare before the weekend looking for similar articles to compare yours against. Thank you for thinking of me --Senra (talk) 22:20, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

No problem – to be honest, you immediately came to mind! I've been helping out on the Meermin slave mutiny article with Pesky, and I think we're going to take a run at FA with it some time soon-ish; so I just thought, who else would I like to work on the related ship article with…? ;o) And, I'm sorry I seem to have got my wires crossed and tangled yours and Malleus's into the bargain: I just posted an explanation of that on Pesky's talk page, but for now, I'm sorry about that: would you like to collaborate on a GAN for the ship article with me, while Malleus reviews? Saturday's fine by me. Editor Kablammo suggested the article originally, and plans to be around at the weekend too, so there could be lots of fun! :o) Nortonius (talk) 00:16, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Sure. Collaboration is fine whilst Malleus reviews --Senra (talk) 11:34, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok, thanks – I'll look forward to it! :o) Nortonius (talk) 12:17, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I've posted a note on MF's talk, to let me know if/when he's ready to grab a GAN. I'll be watching The Shield with a mate soon-ish, but I'll check in on WP several times between now and bedtime. :o) Nortonius (talk) 19:55, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I just posted a GAN for Meermin (VOC ship)! :o) Nortonius (talk) 21:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)