User talk:Pbsouthwood/Archive 26

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Feedback request: All RFCs request for comment

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So I thought to myself

"I wonder what the WDHOF has been up to lately?" Huh. Well, let's make an article then:Elsie Gabriel. She's not at their webpage yet, but it should happen, sooner or later. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:42, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, Cool, thanks for the heads-up. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 14:16, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I get a slight language confusion on this topic. In swedish, an underwater diver is a dykare, while an olympic etc diver is a simhoppare. So I think it's fair of me to blame this [1] year-long oversight on you. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:15, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Our categorisation system is vulnerable to this kind of confusion, and a bit of a mess, but I can't accept responsibility for the ambiguities of the English language, most of it was developed before my time, and mostly by the British and Americans, so I will blame it on them;-) You made a reasonable assumption, I simply did not notice as it is not an obvious error. How did you notice it? Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 01:07, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I added Gabriel to Category:Indian female divers, then I happened to look at it and the other (now only, again) woman in it.

It's one of those very easy mistakes. When I started Shakespeare and Star Trek I misspelled "Roddenberry". I wikilinked my misspelling, and some helpful editor had made it a redirect: Gene Rodenberry. When I saw someone correct it, I felt like I had misspelled "Jesus" in a Christianity article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:04, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Embarassing but not a crisis. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 08:14, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I also notice that Swedish dyka meaning "to dive" also has two meanings: to swim under water (en:dive), and to jump into the water head-first (en:dive), so also a bit ambiguous. As Kurt Gödel said: "The more I think about language, the more it amazes me that people ever understand each other at all". · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 01:25, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Also, language is the tool we use to think with. How do we ever get anything right? · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 01:39, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – July 2023

News and updates for administrators from the past month (June 2023).

Administrator changes

Novem Linguae

• Deckiller
• Electionworld
• MBisanz
• Penwhale
• Raul654
• Roadrunner
• Viridae
• Yannismarou

Bureaucrat changes

MBisanz

Guideline and policy news

• Contributions to the English Wikipedia are now released under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License (CC BY-SA 4.0) license instead of CC BY-SA 3.0. Contributions are still also released under the GFDL license.

Technical news

• Discussion is open regarding a proposed global policy regarding third-party resources. Third-party resources are computer resources that reside outside of Wikimedia production websites.

Arbitration

• Two arbitration cases are currently open. Proposed decisions are expected 5 July 2023 for the Scottywong case and 9 July 2023 for the AlisonW case.

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:58, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Question from Centuries 314 (18:44, 1 July 2023)

How do I create a wikipedia page? --Centuries 314 (talk) 18:44, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi Centuries 314. There are several ways it can be done, depending on how long you have been editing and what kind of page you wish to create. New editors cannot directly create an article in the main encyclopedia, but can create a user-page and a user talk page directly. They can also create a draft article in draft namespace which can be moved into the encyclopedia when it is approved by a reviewer. One can also gradually create an article as a sub-page of one's user page, and when it is good enough it can be moved into the encyclopedia main space. Established editors can create articles directly in main-space. If you can give me more information on what type of article you mean I will be able to give more relevant advice, or you can read Help:Your first article, then ask for specific advice. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 14:08, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Question from CoryHReynolds (20:23, 16 June 2023)

Hello, may I ask you to review the work I have done so far? I don't want to make the page public until I know that it will pass Wikipedia's standards! Thanks very much, Cory --CoryHReynolds (talk) 20:23, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

CoryHReynolds, the draft looks adequate to me, so I have moved it to mainspace. I only checked a few of the references, so cannot confirm that everything is verifiable, and I do not usually work in arts or biography, but the topic seems notable, content seems well laid out, well formatted, neutral, decently sourced and encyclopedic, so way better than average for a first article. I leave it to you to add more categories and add links from other articles, as you probably know the topic well enough to work them out, and it will be a useful learning experience. I cannot guarantee that the article will stick, as that is a consensus decision if anyone objects for a reason that is not immediately obvious, but I am fairly confident. On the other hand, the list of works should be referenced more thoroughly, though some of the existing sources should do for some of the works. I have demonstrated how this can be done in the last section. Thanks for your contribution to our coverage, feel welcome to do it again. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 07:22, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi Peter, thanks for commenting on the page so far. I clicked some sort of update and now find myself in a visually overwhelming new area. I should have waited to click as I am unable to work on the page today. Can you tell me what you changed, so that I can be sure that I understand the new interface that I am seeing. I am extremely appreciative. Once I get the hang of this, I know it will be doable. Thank you Peter. CoryHReynolds (talk) 15:29, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

CoryHReynolds, I reviewed the page and think is is good enough to survive in mainspace, so I moved it into the main part of the encyclopedia, at Ed Bowes, where other people can read and edit it. You can continue to work on it there, and I hope you will. It looks quite normal to me, and I am not sure what new interface you mean. We do have two editing methods available, Visual editor [edit] and Source code editor [edit source]. I don't know which one you normally use, but it should still be there. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 17:34, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Hello! Thank you for writing back. I'm sorry to bombard you with questions of inexperience, but I know I'll catch on quickly.

Yes, I think I was seeing all Source code. I figured out how to see Visual editor.

I figured out how to add categories. But I did not want to publish changes until I knew what you had added. What edits or changes did you make?

Also, I see this message at the top of the draft page: Script warning: One or more {{cite web}} templates have maintenance messages; messages may be hidden (help).

Does this mean I have cited incorrectly?

I do have some newspaper sources to add soon.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help.

Cory CoryHReynolds (talk) 19:36, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

To see what changes were made in an edit or a group of edits, use the [view history] tab at the top of the page to open the version list, then select the revisions you want to compare, and click on the [compare selected revisions button. The page will open with the differences at the top. older version to the left, selected changes to the right, and the last selected version fully parsed below them.

There is something about the one citation that is not what the template expects. It is not an "error" or it would be in red. and say error. Some of the maintenance messages are a bit tricky to decipher, but you can try checking the url in the template against the url when you open the reference in a browser tab. Sometimes it helps to just copy-paste a new copy of the url. If it does not work don't lose any sleep over it. Someone or a bot should check it and make a fix. In this case there was an extra parameter url-status=live when there was no archived copy url, so I just deleted the unnecessary parameter and the message went away. If you try a fix and it makes it worse, revert your edit. [undo]

Newspaper sources are usually good for this type of article. Use as many as are useful. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 05:07, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you -- seems obvious -- but I learn easily from personal instruction but have trouble processing global instructions, so you've been a lifesaver. I really appreciate your cleaning that up. Code makes my eyes swim, unfortunately. I do have some newspaper sources to add and will do so today. : ) CoryHReynolds (talk) 13:12, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

We each do what we can and the collaborations mean we get articles that would not otherwise be written. As time passes you will find you can do things that you cannot do now, because you pick them up by looking at what other editors do. Learn what you need when you need to. You already have one of the most important skills, the ability to write coherently and compose a decent article. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 09:35, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm inspired! Thanks for the encouragement. I'm excited to continue based on your digital positivity! CoryHReynolds (talk) 11:24, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Happy to hear it :) · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 11:41, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi Peter,

I got a message that I needed to add copyright credit to an image that I added to the Ed Bowes page yesterday. I tried to do what the instructions asked. But I can't tell if I did it correctly, and I don't want the image to be deleted. Can you see if I did it correctly? I added this code after the caption in the visual editor: {{Cc-by-1.0}}

Thanks, Cory CoryHReynolds (talk) 14:29, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

I have another question. I want to make another Wikipedia page on the writer, actor and director Nadja Tesich. She was the sister of Steve Tesich, who does have a Wikipedia page. (they are both dead). I discovered she already has a Wikipedia listing in Serbian under the name Nađa Tešić?https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D1%92%D0%B0_%D0%A2%D0%B5%D1%88%D0%B8%D1%9B

Can content be transitioned to the English Wikipedia? A lot of it needs to be edited. Or is it OK to just start from scratch the way I did for Ed Bowes, and then just post a link to the Serbian site?

Thanks - this was an unexpected discovery!

Cory CoryHReynolds (talk) 14:51, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

CoryHReynolds, sorry about late reply, only noticed this now. I don't know about the image license as there is no link to where you found it to check the published copyright status. The Serbian article can be translated for English Wikipedia, but whoever posts it is responsible for checking that the translation is correct, that it is correctly attributed, and that it meets English Wikipedia's notability requirements. I have no skills whatsoever in Serbian, so can't comment on notability or whether the sources support the content. You may be able to find someone who can help at the Wikipedia:Teahouse, and there may be users with skills in Serbian contactable through Wikipedia:Translation/*/Lang/sr. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 09:41, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Feedback request: All RFCs request for comment

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Feedback request: Natural sciences Good Article nomination

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Feedback request: Engineering and technology Good Article nomination

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Question from Langwenya Marvellous (12:49, 13 July 2023)

Hello i dont understand --Langwenya Marvellous (talk) 12:49, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Langwenya Marvellous, what is it that you don't understand? · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 16:44, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Question from Diane Konig (11:01, 13 July 2023)

Hello, thank you for you help. I am a freelance translator for English and German and would like to translate Wikipedia articles that only exist in English to German. When I am allowed to start with that? I could not find the "translation" button. --Diane Konig (talk) 11:01, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi Diane Konig The translation button has been disabled on English Wikipedia, as there were too many really bad translations being done by people who would not follow the instructions. If you want to translate into English you can do it a few paragraphs at a time using Google Translate or similar, then cut and paste into Wikipedia, proofread, copy edit, format as necessary, and save. I have done this when I wanted translations, I assume you are competent in both English and German, and will be translating mainly articles on topics which are reasonably familiar to you, as it can be difficult to identify inappropriate usage if the topic is technical and entirely unfamiliar. I have translated from German to English a few times, but would not consider myself competent to translate from English into German. I have no idea what the situation is regarding translation for German Wikipedia, you should ask someone there. I wish you well on this project as there is much work to be done. English Wikipedia (en: or enwiki for short) accepts references in any language if they are up to standard for reliability, and as far as I know the situation on de: is very similar, but the reference formatting templates differ. It will usually be easier to copy the parsed text rather than to try to use the wikicode in the translator. One of the trickier points in translating is checking whether the references cited apply accurately to the translation too.

On en: you cannot create articles in mainspace until you have done a nominal number of edits, see WP:AUTOCONFIRM, and are registered, which you are already. It may be similar on de:, but I don't know for sure. You can immediately create articles in draft space, and as subpages of your user page, then when they are cleaned up and ready to go into main space, you or someone else can move them by renaming the page. Feel free to ask me again when you get to this point on en:, but I can't hep you much on de: I hope this answers your questions sufficiently. If not, try again, and so will I. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 13:02, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Dear Peter Southwood,

thank you for your answer. I am a German native speaker so I am competent to translate into German ;). And yes, most people do not understand what it means to really translate a text, so I perfectly understand why the translation option has been disabled. So, would it be possible to create a "new article" on a topic which already exists as an English article but does not has a German version and then write a translated article in German and connect it with the English original?

Sincerely

Diane Diane Konig (talk) 06:06, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Diane Konig, That is standard procedure as long as you provide attribution data for all translated content. I recommend that you check the sources where reasonably practicable, and there may be a tag template on de: to put on the page somewhere that states that it is translated from the English version of the specific date or date range in which you did the work, to provide the best practice attribution. On en: we can leave a note in the edit summary of translated content for attribution, which is what I usually do. For an example, see the edit summary of the first edit of Peter Kreeft (diver) at [2]. You can link to the original article through Wikidata too, but if you don't, someone else will get around to it sometime, so not an big problem. I find it convenient to create draft articles and translations as user page subpages, and often have several in development at any given time. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk):`

Question from Cole By the Hearth (17:33, 15 July 2023)

Hello, PBSouthwood, if you don't know how to edit an article, then how do you select another? --Cole By the Hearth (talk) 17:33, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Cole By the Hearth, The usual way is to choose an article that you know you can improve. Either you spot an error or omission while browsing, or you go looking for things to improve on topics you are familiar with, and have some idea of where to find sources. To find articles on a topic, type the title into the search box, and choose something that looks promising from the suggested list. I don't know if I have understood your question correctly, so if this does not answer it, try rephrasing the question. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 18:44, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Notability?

I've re-done the entire content and references for the draft article on the IUCRR. I never reference the IUCRRs web site. There seems to be a question about notability. I'm not sure how a all-volunteer organization that performs victim recovery from underwater, overhead environment that very few people on the entire planet can do, isn't notable. If a fire department or any school can have notability, then the IUCRR would certainly qualify as notable. Only a tiny fraction of police and fire dive units can do this type of activity, and none of them do it outside their jurisdiction. The IUCRR brings closure to families by doing the gruesome work of finding and pulling bodies out of caves. There have been major motion pictures made that describe the type of activities we perform (the Thai soccer team retrieval). I'm quite at a loss on who thinks this organization is not notable. Perhaps the question should be: if the organization disappeared tomorrow, would anyone notice. In the case of the IUCRR, you'd have families clamoring for police divers and others to further risk their lives in retrieving bodies from environments they are not qualified nor experienced to dive into (much less exert great physical and psychological effort). So, it seems "notable" is whatever someone wants -- or doesn't want it to be. There is a lack of direct references to the organization primarily because it's patently obvious what they do, and it's such a small profile that they don't bring attention to themselves. Yet they still perform a needed service to humanity. 143.55.39.62 (talk) 14:18, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

The Wikipedia:general notability requirement is an attempt to provide a reasonably objective method for deciding what gets onto Wikipedia to prevent all kinds of unimportant trivia from being included just because a lot of people want to. It is widely recognised as an deeply flawed system, but it is the best we have, and it works well enough for most topics. If you can come up with a better one, you are welcome to propose it, but it would actually have to work better over the whole range of potential topics. Unfortunately for many diving topics it is difficult to find suitable sources because someone first has to write them and there is more money in writing for the popular press than on more worthy matters. Look at the coverage on professional sports and computer gaming for examples, or on the people who are famous only for being famous and have done nothing worthwhile in their entire lives, but get an article written about them because they have made it to the news often enough. So it goes. In case you were wondering I personally think the IUCRR is a worthy topic, but until the rules are changed, we are stuck with them. A major motion picture that describes their work can be a good source as long as somewhere in the movie, or its credits, or reviews, the organisation is mentioned by name. We can cite movies, it is just something I am unfamiliar with, so I can't advise you on how best to do it. In passing, when you refer to an article or draft, or any page you want someone to be able to find, please leave a link. Since you were not logged in when you left me this message I can't even look it up in your contribution history as your current IP address does not have one. Also. although I can guess from the context, I do not know who you are. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 19:01, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

August 2023 Good Article Nominations backlog drive

Good article nominations | August 2023 Backlog Drive
August 2023 Backlog Drive: On 1 August, a one-month backlog drive for good article nominations will begin. Barnstars will be awarded. Interested in taking part? You can sign up here.
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You're receiving this message because you have reviewed or nominated a good article in the last year. (t · c) buidhe 05:15, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Article about Enid marrero

9542459068 Enidsulaymarrero (talk) 18:27, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

What do you wish to communicate? · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 09:54, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Feedback request: Natural sciences Good Article nomination

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Feedback request: Geography and places Good Article nomination

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Feedback request: Natural sciences Good Article nomination

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Administrators' newsletter – August 2023

News and updates for administrators from the past month (July 2023).

Administrator changes

Firefangledfeathers

• AlisonW
• Amberrock
• Closedmouth
• Scottywong

Interface administrator changes

Novem Linguae

Technical news

• The tag filter on Special:NewPages and revision history pages can now be inverted. This allows hiding edits made by automated tools. (T334338)
• Special:BlockedExternalDomains is a new tool that allows easier blocking of plain domains (and their subdomains). This is more easily searchable and is faster for the software to use than the existing MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist. It does not support regex (for complex cases), URL path-matching, or the MediaWiki:Spam-whitelist. (T337431)

Arbitration

• The arbitration cases named Scottywong and AlisonW closed 10 July and 16 July respectively.
• The SmallCat dispute arbitration case is in the workshop phase.

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 08:54, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Feedback request: Geography and places Good Article nomination

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Your GA nomination of Cataract surgery

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Cataract surgery you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by ChristieBot, on behalf of Oltrepier -- Oltrepier (talk) 14:21, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello! Just to be clear, I didn't forget about this review: I actually lost time, but now I'm finishing checking the article's text and sources, and I should be able to complete my assessment between tonight and tomorrow!

Sorry for not giving any update until now... Oltrepier (talk) 18:25, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

No worries, things happen. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 18:40, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Cataract surgery

The article Cataract surgery you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Cataract surgery for comments about the article, and Talk:Cataract surgery/GA1 for the nomination. Well done! If the article has never appeared on the Main Page as a "Did you know" item, and has not appeared within the last year either as "Today's featured article", or as a bold link under "In the news" or in the "On this day" prose section, you can nominate it within the next seven days to appear at DYK. Bolded names with dates listed at the bottom of the "On this day" column do not affect DYK eligibility. Message delivered by ChristieBot, on behalf of Oltrepier -- Oltrepier (talk) 19:21, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Cataract surgery

Hello! I just wanted to tell you I've nominated the article for DYK, as you suggested.

I've proposed a few hooks about several interesting details from all over the page: let me know what you think about it!

Oltrepier (talk) 08:09, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I will have a look at them. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 08:32, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Question from Croboror55 (12:38, 24 August 2023)

Hello --Croboror55 (talk) 12:38, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Croboror55, Hello, what is your question? · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 13:05, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Feedback request: All RFCs request for comment

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Request for email address

Good morning sir. Please, if you wouldn't mind, I will love to reach out to you on your email. Thanks in anticipation. Ezra Cricket (talk) Ezra Cricket (talk) 07:27, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi Ezra Cricket, One does not ask a Wikipedian for their e-mail address. If you wish to discuss something with me, you can do so on this page, on your own talk page, or on the talk page relevant to the topic you want to discuss. You can ping me from any discussion page on any Wikimedia project. If it is not a Wikipedia related topic you wish to discuss, you may not be approaching the right person. If you still want to send me private information, there is a facility to email users who accept emails through Wikipedia, See Wikipedia:Emailing users. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 11:04, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok sir. I'll try and do you. God bless you mentor. Ezra Cricket (talk) 22:25, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok sir. I'll try and do so. God bless you mentor. Ezra Cricket (talk) 22:27, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Notice of noticeboard discussion

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 19:48, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – September 2023

News and updates for administrators from the past month (August 2023).

Administrator changes

• Pppery
• Theleekycauldron

• Dwheeler
• G.A.S
• Royalbroil
• Ssd

CheckUser changes

Bradv

Oversighter changes

Bradv

Guideline and policy news

• Following an RfC, TFAs will be automatically semi-protected the day before it is on the main page and through the day after.
• A discussion at WP:VPP about revision deletion and oversight for dead names found that [s]ysops can choose to use revdel if, in their view, it's the right tool for this situation, and they need not default to oversight. But oversight could well be right where there's a particularly high risk to the person. Use your judgment.

Technical news

• Special:Contributions now shows the user's local edit count and the account's creation date. (T324166)

Arbitration

• The SmallCat dispute case has closed. As part of the final decision, editors participating in XfD have been reminded to be careful about forming local consensus which may or may not reflect the broader community consensus. Regular closers of XfD forums were also encouraged to note when broader community discussion, or changes to policies and guidelines, would be helpful.

Miscellaneous

• Tech tip: The "Browse history interactively" banner shown at the top of Special:Diff can be used to easily look through a history, assemble composite diffs, or find out what archive something wound up in.

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 09:22, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Feedback request: Natural sciences Good Article nomination

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Feedback request: Natural sciences Good Article nomination

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Feedback request: Geography and places Good Article nomination

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New page patrol October 2023 Backlog drive

New Page Patrol | October 2023 Backlog Drive
On 1 October, a one-month backlog drive for New Page Patrol will begin. Barnstars will be awarded based on the number of articles and redirects patrolled. Barnstars will also be granted for re-reviewing articles previously reviewed by other patrollers during the drive. Articles will earn 3x as many points compared to redirects. Interested in taking part? Sign up here.
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MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 09:14, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

CCI opened

As a result of concerns regarding copyright violations in your edits, I have opened Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20230831, which will be filled out with your significant edits in order to review them for copyright issues. Contributor copyright investigations can stay open for long periods of time due to a large current backlog and low number of volunteers. Although it isn't required, participation in the investigation, such as providing guidance for which edits you copied from your sources, can help expedite the process. I have additionally removed your autopatrolled user right due to these concerns. As you are an adminstrator and have over 100K edits I believe I am obliged to inform the community about this, and will post about this at WP:AN momentarily. I don't like this either and think it's a pain in the ass, but I don't think I have much other choice. If you have any questions, please ask me. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 19:11, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Moneytrees, Thanks for the notification. I understand your position and don't really see how you could do it differently. I am in the habit of adding content first and referencing later if I am working from personal knowledge and experience, which covers most diving related articles and a lot of engineering, There is almost no chance of copyright infringement in those cases, as I am literally not referring to the source at the time, and am necessarily using my own words, but generally know where the information is available. When I edit from a source on matters on which I am not an expert, I tend to put in the reference immediately, so I don't lose track of where I got the unfamiliar material. In those cases accidental too close paraphrasing is more likely, though I do try to avoid it. Sometimes it seems to be a toss up between closeness of paraphrasing and remaining faithful to the source, depending on how well written the source is. Some writers are very good as condensing a lot of information into a few words, with great clarity, others use a hundred words where ten would do. It can happen that the ten we use are among the hundred they used, often grouped as commonly used technical terminology for that topic. We are often stuck between the risks of offending against someone's strict interpretation of our copyright rules and committing what someone else will claim is original research or misrepresenting the source, and the more one produces content, the greater one exposes oneself to the risk of it occasionally being interpreted as crossing the line. This information may save you some time while investigating. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 09:11, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi Pbsouthwood, I appreciate this message and I think it will provide useful insight for when the investigation is filled out. I know you've been keen to attribute content when copying between articles and I hope that will make this investigation easier moving forward. You're definitely right about the copyvio vs. OR/V issues and it's always been a difficult rope to walk. Personally I think we need more automation at CCI because handling the workload as volunteers is painful and a timesink, especially on giant investigation like this one (and keep in mind there are other ones that are even bigger and have more serious and blatant violations like Ruigeroeland and 20150507) I might try to get some automation incorporated into this investigation-- ideally something like at mass Turnitin scan and a something that could quickly suggest rewords for certain sections. I'll update you on the matter and am here for any questions. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 23:02, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Moneytrees,

• What do you mean by providing guidance on which edits you copied from your sources?
• How do you know when to stop an investigation of this type? Absence of evidence or evidence of absence?
• It might be more useful to have a system which advises the editor on possible copyright violations before the edit is saved. Possibly even refuse to save if the violation is indisputable. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 02:06, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

@Pbsouthwood Sorry for the delay, I was very busy this week. The CCI is now filled out, and it's fortunately not as large as I thought; there's a lot of edits to look over, but a good deal of them on the first page are not problematic as they're just lists or otherwise attributed copies.

• Input from you would be useful if you suspect there's an issue with one of your edits, or if there's a confusing edit you can help explain the background behind (Like, "oh I copied that bit of the article from another article but forgot to attribute it at the time", or something like that)
  • Moneytrees, If I thought there were issues with my edits, I would have already fixed them. Any edits that have not been fixed already by me are therefore those which I do not know about, or do not think there is a problem with (this last appears to be the point of contention). I am fastidious about edit summaries attributing content copied within the wikis, even when the content was my work to start with, which technically should not need attribution, except on occasions when I have basically added the same new content to more than one article at approximately the same time, which has happened. The time stamp should identify these.· · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 06:32, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
• CCIs are closed when all articles have been reviewed and associated issues have been cleaned up. On larger scale investigations like this one the focus will be on removing all of the non-problematic articles from the listing first (all of the list articles) before getting into the content that could actually have potential issues. There's been some cases where it became clear nothing else left at the CCI would be problematic and it was just closed (like this brief one for when Lugnuts quit and claimed to have several copyvios in his edits)
  • Moneytrees, I would not have expected deliberate copyright violations from Lugnuts, whatever problems they caused I think were done in honest disagreement with and misunderstanding of the relevant policy, and not as an intention to damage the encyclopedia, with the exception of that parting shot, which I do not believe. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 06:32, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
• Yes, that would be much much preferable to the current system at copypatrol where edits are flagged as potential violations after being made. I've thought about that before and I think it could be feasible in some way, like how there will be a notice when you add an external link on the blacklist. Maybe we could get the Eranbot iThenticate software hooked up on something like that. It probably wouldn't stop people copyright issues (intentionally or not) altogether, but I do think it would decrease them significantly. Truthfully I have grown to really resent our current processes around these issues for avrious reasons and I'm all ears for ways to improve them. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 03:09, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Moneytrees, I know that if I had that foreknowledge of even an automated and not entirely reliable assessment of possibly excessively close paraphrasing, I would reassess and where reasonably practicable, rewrite until the warning goes away, even when I don't agree that there is any legal issue, because that is the path of least resistance and I am averse to unnecessary conflict. I think that most editors would do the same, except where it is not actually possible. There would also be cases where the information would get garbled just to get the software to allow a save, but you can't win them all. That happens anyway when people try to "clean up copyvios" of this type and lose or mangle the information in an effort to more loosely paraphrase when they do not really know the topic well enough. That is also inevitable in some technical topics, when the author of the source writes densely and efficiently, and the terminology does not have many synonyms. Nevertheless, I think we could reduce the problem very significantly by such a system. Unfortunately I have no idea how to do it except as the basic concept I have expressed. If you are inclined to workshop some possible improvements I would like to contribute.· · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 12:27, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
  • I should also mention that I have never used Turnitin, so cannot comment on that, but my experience with Earwig's check has not been great. If I try to use it after saving an edit it seems to not actually check the latest content, so I may get a zero conflict result, where later the same day someone else gets a result on the same content that gets published as evidence against me. This does not build confidence in the system. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 12:47, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

    There's a draft RfC I keep meaning to work on, but I'm pretty busy right now and haven't had the chance to get to it. Bottom line is that even with the large uptick of volunteers we've recently seen and increased awareness, copyright work on Wikipedia isn't sustainable and is painful tedious work. There are serious bus factor issues too; me, DanCherek, Diannaa, MER-C, Sphilbrick etc. don't have the time to work in the area like we used too. There's been a pattern of this happening over the years and I hope I can try to put an end to it before it becomes another generation of editors' problem. I would very much appreciate any input you have for the RfC on the talk page.

    Earwig is a primitive tool that has gotten us far, but Wikipedia will need something more serious moving forward. I'm not expecting Earwig to be much help on this CCI for a few reasons; as you said it doesn't detect close phrasing well if it all. I also think most of the potential issues will come from books and journals, which Earwig cannot read. Turnitin can read books and journals, and is better at detecting close phrasing, but our access to it is limited through Copypatrol reports on current edits. Earwig has a Turnitin option, but it's rarely/never worked for me. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 23:40, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Category:Top 10 dive sites has been nominated for deletion

Category:Top 10 dive sites has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Loafiewa (talk) 04:48, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

New pages patrol newsletter

Hello Pbsouthwood,

New Page Review article queue, March to September 2023

Backlog update: At the time of this message, there are 11,300 articles and 15,600 redirects awaiting review. This is the highest backlog in a long time. Please help out by doing additional reviews!

October backlog elimination drive: A one-month backlog drive for October will start in one week! Barnstars will be awarded based on the number of articles and redirects patrolled. Articles will earn 4x as many points compared to redirects. You can sign up here.

PageTriage code upgrades: Upgrades to the PageTriage code, initiated by the NPP open letter in 2022 and actioned by the WMF Moderator Tools Team in 2023, are ongoing. More information can be found here. As part of this work, the Special:NewPagesFeed now has a new version in beta! The update leaves the NewPagesFeed appearance and function mostly identical to the old one, but updates the underlying code, making it easier to maintain and helping make sure the extension is not decommissioned due to maintenance issues in the future. You can try out the new Special:NewPagesFeed here - it will replace the current version soon.

Notability tip: Professors can meet WP:PROF #1 by having their academic papers be widely cited by their peers. When reviewing professor articles, it is a good idea to find their Google Scholar or Scopus profile and take a look at their h-index and number of citations. As a very rough rule of thumb, for most fields, articles on people with a h-index of twenty or more, a first-authored paper with more than a thousand citations, or multiple papers each with more than a hundred citations are likely to be kept at AfD.

Reviewing tip: If you would like like a second opinion on your reviews or simply want another new page reviewer by your side when patrolling, we recommend pair reviewing! This is where two reviewers use Discord voice chat and screen sharing to communicate with each other while reviewing the same article simultaneously. This is a great way to learn and transfer knowledge.

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MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:46, 22 September 2023 (UTC)