Talk:Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present)

2000+

@Vbbanaz05 Look, I get it. The 2,000+ casualties are likely not true. However, that doesn't really matter. That's why it says "Per Hezbollah". The point of including them is to be able to get across the claims that Hzb. makes. And, wheter the numbers are true or false, it is not wrong that Hezbollah has made them.

Therefore, they should be included. Genabab (talk) 19:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Viewsridge Wdyt of the above argument that the 2,000+ figure should remain? Genabab (talk) 12:27, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

What do I think about it? I think it's a nonsensical propaganda claim made by a terrorist organization without any evidence. Viewsridge (talk) 19:43, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

@Viewsridge sure, that may be the case. However, wheter the claims are true or not doesn't change the fact that Hzb. ultimately still made them and it is important to show what Hezbollah's claims are Genabab (talk) 20:35, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Nope. That is not getting included. Viewsridge (talk) 21:15, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

@ViewsridgeYou're being too closeminded I think. The wikiboks for the Israeli invasion of Gaza also includes estimates of IDF casualties by Hamas. so why not this?

Again, its likely not true. We're actually in agreement here. But there's no denying that Hzb made this claim and => it should be included for documentation. That is wikipedia's policy after all. Genabab (talk) 23:05, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

According to Times of Israel it's been 1,500 Hezbollah members killed since the start of the conflict, which they quoted from a IDF official https://www.timesofisrael.com/hezbollah-drone-targets-netanyahus-house-in-caesarea-pm-wife-not-home-no-injuries/?utm_campaign=most_popular&utm_source=website&utm_medium=article_end&utm_content=1 Mauzer's random BS (talk) 21:08, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 2 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. There's a fairly widespread feeling that recent escalations in Lebanon have crossed the line into war, but there's considerable concern about applying that word to a broad article that covers over a year's worth of events. Editors are welcome to keep discussing the various splits and scope changes that have been suggested, and (as always in current-events discussions) there's nothing wrong with another RM later if the situation and/or the sources change markedly. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 09:27, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

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Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present) → Israel–Hezbollah war (2023–present) – First, there has been significant escalation in the recent weeks of this conflict. Israel has conducted widespread airstrikes on Lebanon, assassinated senior officials of Hezbollah, including its leader, and invaded Lebanon. This is not just a conflict anymore. Second, reliable sources that previously also called it a conflict are beginning to use the term "war". For example, The New York Times, Washington Post, and CNN have begun to label this a war. The case for this is strong, and "Israel-Hezbollah war" has been used more commonly than "Third Lebanon War", another proposed name for this conflict. Personisinsterest (talk) 23:51, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Hyphen changed to dash above, assuming that was just a typographical error. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:58, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

• Wait until more sources consistently use the term "war", don't move the page when sources are just beginning to use the term. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 00:50, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
• Wait per WP:RECENT and Nice4What, but also it should be Israel–Lebanon war (2023–present) if changed. The war in 2006 was primarily against Hezbollah, but the people impacted in any military conflict are more than specific belligerents. With 20% of Lebanese population evacuated right now, it's hardly solely against Hezbollah. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 08:20, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Move the conflict has significantly escalated since the Pager explosions and killings of various leaders. There is a ground invasion, aerial attacks and even involvement for Iran. Keeping this as a 'conflict' is simply factitious at this point Thistheyear2023 (talk) 12:28, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Support: Conflict instead of war is simply no longer accurate. (Edit: I am actually not too sure) Evaporation123 (talk) 16:37, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

@Evaporation123 Well as you can see it has escalated beyond conflict to a war now as reported by numerous WP:RS. This is very similar to the Russo-Ukrainian War which begun in 2014 but the direct invasion phase happened in 2022. The article was renamed war from conflict because after a direct invasion it is no longer a mere conflict but a war which is the same case here.. Dilbaggg (talk) 11:27, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Support per standard in topic area. Almost all engagements in the Levant have been called a "war" involving Hamas or Hezbollah, regardless of its duration, and several are far less bloody already than this current spate of violence. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 20:30, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Support Israel–Hezbollah war since the 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon has began and the death toll is climbing and above 1,000 I think this article should be move to war. HuntersHistory (talk) 20:35, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Support It's a war now. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 20:44, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose It is not a war and the Israelis and Hezbollah do not call it that. Even the invasion article should not have been moved to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. They only advanced a small distance into the country! EpicAdventurer (talk) 21:01, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources on the topic refer to it as an invasion[1]. Durraz0 (talk) 21:13, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

That is a separate topic, see 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon. estar8806 (talk) ★ 00:22, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I am pretty sure most combatants in a war usually don't refer to there conflict as a "war" in the modern era due to international agreements that forcibly impact what a country "at war" can do in regards with other countries e.g force neighboring countries to detain troops from the countries at war present in their countries . It's why in 2022 the Russian invasion of Ukraine is referred to as a "special military operation". Consequently, we generally rely on what the media deems the scale of the conflict to be. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 21:32, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Support Israel has assasinated most of the Hezbollah leadership, and has now proceeded in a ground invasion. At this point it is most definitely a war. Durraz0 (talk) 21:10, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:PRECISION. This article covers the entire conflict since October of last year. We can't retroactively apply the term "war" to the almost full year of the conflict between then and now, even if now it could be considered a full-scale war. estar8806 (talk) ★ 22:04, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Support It's quite obviously a war now, the title of the article should reflect that. GWA88 (talk) 00:16, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Support Since Israel invade Lebanon territory, we can't no more think this as mere conflict. -- 웬디러비/Wendy Lovey (talk) 05:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. This article covers the entirety of the conflict starting from the 8th of October 2023. Most sources do not consider the events preceding September of this year to have constituted a war, so renaming the entire article would be misleading. Lightspecs (talk) 11:03, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose — Per Estar8806 and page size concerns. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 15:41, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Support per arguments above. It's officially a war now. The article could alternatively be renamed to 2024 Lebanon War or 2023–2024 Lebanon War for consistency with the other Lebanon War articles. Skitash (talk) 00:00, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Support 2023–2024 Lebanon War alternative for conciseness and consistency. ZionniThePeruser (talk) 01:19, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Terrorism, WikiProject Syria, WikiProject Military history, WikiProject Military history/Post-Cold War task force, WikiProject Israel, and WikiProject Lebanon have been notified of this discussion. Web-julio (talk) 07:26, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Support Great Mercian (talk) 17:28, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

There's 2024 Israel–Hezbollah war already now. Web-julio (talk) 23:14, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

That is a small newly written article that did not even go through Draft phase, it should be merged with this article. Dilbaggg (talk) 09:40, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

There is a distinct period of conflict and the war itself, this could cover the conflict and the second can cover the war The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 10:21, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I think we should close this as there's an article about the war now/ Personisinsterest (talk) 23:41, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Keep the first phase (until late September) as “conflict”, then make a seperate page for the war (late September-present) The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 05:00, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Agree with The Great Mule of Eupatoria's suggestion. Personisinsterest would you agree with that too? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 17:58, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Support Many WP:RS are calling it a war now, there is an artuiicle about the invasion which means this is a war, anyway i am just providing two of many WP:RS that agrees that this is now a war: [[2]] and [[3]] and there are a lot more than these. Dilbaggg (talk) 09:38, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

• Question: is it not the case that this was a low level conflict from Oct 2023 which then escalated into war in Sep 2024? In that case should we have a separate article for the war? Personisinsterest.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 15:59, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Dilbaggg@Durraz0@ElijahPepe@EpicAdventurer@Estar8806@Evaporation123@Fantastic Mr. Fox The Great Mule of Eupatoria, Skitash. If this is the case, then this article should be moved to Israel–Hezbollah clashes (2023–2024) and everything post September 2024 should be in a new article like Third Lebanon war or 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 16:02, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Just so you are aware, 2024 Israel–Hezbollah war is an article and does not use Israeli or Lebanese terminology in the title. I support this proposal, but I do not believe the invasion article should be redirected; in the last several days, Israeli has dealt damage to Lebanon through airstrikes. Moving this article to Prelude to the 2024 Israel–Hezbollah war would not be a bad idea, either. As estar8806 noted, the events prior to September 17 are notable, but expanding this article would give weight to the events after September 17. Merging this article with the existing war article and moving the pre-war clashes to another article is also an option, but it would lead to attribution concerns. In fairness, this article presently contains extrenuous material, but I do not believe that removing that content would resolve the concerns above because of the degree to which there is notable and necessary content included. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 16:41, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I would support a split. Obviously this isn't the proper venue, and the article that would be split into has already been created, but I think some discussion is warranted. estar8806 (talk) ★ 18:52, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

The article in question was speedily deleted this afternoon. If a split were to occur, I would highly support an undeletion, since there was a formidable framework in that article and external contributions. In addition, there is a Chinese translation at zh:以色列—真主黨戰爭. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 21:53, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

This is very similar to the Russo-Ukrainian War which begun in 2014 but the direct invasion phase happened in 2022. The article was renamed war from conflictb because afrter a direct invasion it is no longer a mere conflict but a war, and there are multiple WP:RS and news media calling this a Israel-Hezbollah War now! Dilbaggg (talk) 08:45, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

The direct phase of the Russo-Ukrainian War has been happening since 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea. These two cases are very similar, yet also very different. estar8806 (talk) ★ 12:11, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

@ElijahPepe so would you then support a split? One article for the current war and one for the pre-war clashes? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 17:56, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but I ask that the previous article be recreated if consensus leans that way. Presently, what is agreed upon here is that the events since September 17 have constituted a war. The question is now whether or not that should be a separate article. This article is already at 12,000 words, so adding war-related content would far surpass that. I established a framework for a war article and believe that should be used in a split. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 18:15, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

@ElijahPepe do you mean Third Lebanon War? I see that used to be an article before it was redirected. I don't see any history for 2024 Israel–Hezbollah war.

Also, starting Sep 30 (or whenever Israel started amassing at the border), technically everything Israel does in Lebanon can be covered under Israeli invasion of Lebanon. This is because an invasion also includes airstrikes (see 2003 Invasion of Iraq, United States invasion of Afghanistan, Russian invasion of Ukraine).

So one solution is to have Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present) end on Sep 30, and then have 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon be the "war article".VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 23:42, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

2024 Israel–Hezbollah war was deleted and then recreated as a redirect. Note that the three articles you mention have war articles and the incursions are described as stages of that broader war. I do not believe that it would be prudent to split the articles in that manner because if this is a prolonged conflict, an invasion article will not suffice. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 23:50, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

@ElijahPepe, understood. In the first two cases the post invasion war was due to an insurgency. In the case of Russia, the invasion has remained the latest stage for the last 2 years. I agree that if there is a prolonged occupation the invasion won't suffice, but for now invasion does seem to suffice right? We can make another decision if and when the invasion ends but (unfortunately) the war continues.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 02:08, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I would support that Personisinsterest (talk) 23:27, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Support - The situation has clearly deteriorated into a war with an Israeli invasion of Lebanon and constant airstrikes on Beirut, the south, and Beqaa/Baalbek and Hezbollah's consistent rocket salvos on Haifa and attempted rocket attacks on Tel Aviv. RamHez (talk) 17:05, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Support - This has now escalated far beyond how we define conflict in wartime scenarios, I believe its foolish to keep calling it this. Death rates are climbing far beyond what a conflict would have. CodificationWiki (talk) 22:28, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Support - if Israel-Hamas is labelled as war then Israel-Hezbollah should also be labeled as a war

Lonapak (talk) 08:19, 10 October 2024 (UTC) Need to be extended confirmed.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 17:58, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Support Clearly the conflict has escalated enough to be formally called a war. It is treated as such in almost every source, despite not being necessarily named yet. Although I think Third Lebanon War and 2024 Lebanon War can be used already and are better names for this article, that will take more discussion here and a definitive name will only come in a few years. However, I don't think the article can stay with this euphemistic name because we haven't received a formal notification saying that a situation with more than 3,000 casualties and 1 million displaced is a generic conflict. --B1mbo (talk) 16:13, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Consensus is clear, timeframe for consensus has also ended, majority have agreed to the change and by WP:RS and news media reports it has escalated to a war now. This should now be closed as consensus has been reached and the move completed. Dilbaggg (talk) 17:07, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support this is know a war. Catfurball (talk) 20:01, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. This is now a war, yes. But it wasn't a war back in 2023 and almost no one called it that and no-one today says what happened back in 2023 was a war. So I suggest creating a new article on the war, while letting this article stay as is. I really hope the "Support" !votes can respond to this point.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 17:55, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

  There is a clear phase of conflict and when it became war. I agree with this suggestion The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 11:23, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - My own read of this discussion is that a move is inevitable, but this article should not be moved. There was not a state of war in Lebanon between Israel and Hezbollah on October 8th, 2023 or at any other point prior to the past month. To move the article is to claim that the war in Lebanon has been on-going for over a year. This is not supported by reliable sources, but it is ingrained into the proposed article title with "2023–present". The opening act of the war – the invasion of Lebanon – began in the past weeks. There should be an article on the war, but it is a separate topic to that covered by this article.
  I'll also note how many support votes themselves unwittingly acknowledge these facts: Israel–Hezbollah war since the 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon has began ...; It's a war now; It's officially a war now; It's quite obviously a war now ...; Since Israel invade Lebanon territory, we can't no more think this as mere conflict; Many WP:RS are calling it a war now ...; The situation has clearly deteriorated into a war with an Israeli invasion of Lebanon ...; Clearly the conflict has escalated enough to be formally called a war; this is know (sic) a war (emphases added). Yes, now. Not a year ago. Not on October 8th, 2023. Mr rnddude (talk) 06:46, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose We have the 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon already, this article is the lead in/background to that. Per VR, we don't need two "war" articles.Selfstudier (talk) 08:58, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Wars take place between countries, not a particular organization in a country. I don't think the threshold has been reached to call this a war, yet. The Israelis seem to be targeting just the Hezbollah organization and its fighters, not Lebanon generally. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 11:01, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Israel has launched attacks at a much higher rate than Hezbollah has

I'm not sure it belongs to the lede. While it's true and the cited article does say it (so I my edit summary was inaccurate), this is not a proof that it's one of the most important aspects of the war. It's also easy to find statistics that the Allies dropped many more bombs on Germany during the WW2 than vice versa and you can find statistics in relevant articles but it's not mentioned in the lede of the main article about the WW2. Alaexis_¿question? 18:14, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

This isn't WWII so Idk what that's about. It's not even a war (yet), supposedly "limited". Here's another source with more detail https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-israeli-attacks-outnumbered-hezbollahs-five-to-one-our-analysis-finds Selfstudier (talk) 18:29, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

We should just list the number of attacks by each without editorializing.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 15:21, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 October 2024

Change the death toll in Lebanon from 1100+ killed to 2000+ killed. It is the more recent statistic (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/10/4/live-israeli-bombs-rain-down-on-lebanons-beirut-gaza-occupied-west-bank?update=3222514) Onana947 (talk) 06:38, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

A correction over the identity of casualties in IDF attack

in the "November" portion, it is written: "Following a Hezbollah strike on 13 November, the IDF responded with heavy shelling across southern Lebanon which reportedly killed two civilians.". It referances a Reuters artical that states "Israeli strikes killed two people in south Lebanon on Monday, according to a first-responder organisation affiliated to the Hezbollah-allied Amal Movement.". The article doesn't state that the casualties were civilians. The sentence should either be changed or cite an article that confirms both casualties were civilians Stone fridge (talk) 18:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

 Done. Alaexis_¿question? 20:07, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Infobox fork

I've boldly forked the infobox for this article to Template:Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present) infobox, as was done with Template:Israel–Hamas war infobox, because the article has become so large that I encountered significant load times when I made this edit. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 06:58, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Using a twitter post as a source

The article uses a twitter post as a source that allegedly disputes the visual evidence confirming the israeli control on the village maroun al ras. As much as I remember, sources that back statements noted in a wikipedia article, (let alone when the statement is crucial) should meet certain requirements, which, a twitter post does not do. Remove it. 141.226.89.63 (talk) 00:58, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Iran-Hezbollah ally

Why isn't Iran listed as an ally of Hezbollah? It is widely known and proved that Iran supports Hezbollah materially, financially, and morally.

Iran is listed as an ally of Hamas on this wiki page

Why isn't it listed as such on this page? ZeroByter (talk) 14:48, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Estimate from (74) states 111,000 not 1.1 million refuges

In the current version article, where it states “ while in Lebanon, 1.2 million individuals have been displaced”, the article referenced has a much smaller estimate. 77.137.28.218 (talk) 16:02, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I logged in just to request an edit, it now says 1.4M Hadassah112 (talk) 14:31, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

This now even says 1.4 M without source support. Requesting another edit. Barthelmes (talk) 17:34, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Attack on journalists in October 2023

There is a separate article about the attack on journalists in October 2023, which is also linked to. Would it make sense to delete the following paragraph about 2024 events related to that 2023 attack, because it's already covered in that other article? I skipped the paragraph myself when reading. 82.147.226.185 (talk) 09:26, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

"A February 2024 report by the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon concluded that an Israeli tank killed Abdallah when it fired at "clearly identifiable journalists", and that this broke international law. The report "assessed that there was no exchange of fire across the Blue Line at the time of the incident", with no records of any exchange of fire across the border for the 40 minutes before the tank firing.[165] The IDF responded to the report by claiming that Hezbollah attacked them, prompting them to retaliate with tank fire.[165]" 82.147.226.185 (talk) 09:26, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Categorization of alleged israeli war crimes

Why is the following text under Israels section of "targeting journalists" if Hezbollah was firing the missile? "On 26 December 2023, a Hezbollah anti-tank missile impacted near a Channel 13 News team while they were interviewing a farmer at Dovev for an article following a prior Hezbollah assault that killed a 56-year-old employee of the Israel Electric Corporation, and injured five workers who were repairing electric lines" 41.66.99.77 (talk) 14:51, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Probably accidental miscategorization because of the sub-section's title. The material doesn't appear to belong in the war crimes section though. There is no mention of intentional targeting, and the news crew wasn't hit by the AT missile. I can't read Hebrew though, so another editor should check before moving or removing it. Mr rnddude (talk) 15:01, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to restrict scope of this article

In the above discussion, I think there seems to be consensus that Oct 2023 - Sep 2024 marked a low-level phase of the conflict, and that no one called this low-level phase as "war", but now we've entered a much more intense phase of the conflict. So I propose that the scope of this article ends sometime in Sep 2024 and details about events in Oct 2024 go into 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon or a different article, but not this one. Pinging (Personisinsterest—The Great Mule of Eupatoria—Dilbaggg—ElijahPepe—estar8806—Mr rnddude—Lightspecs).VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 17:39, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, the ongoing RM wants a move to I Hez war. If that goes through, then it will be like the I Hamas set up (war + invasion) which, yea, does invite duplication. Selfstudier (talk) 18:01, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

@Selfstudier It sounds like you oppose the RM, its best you make your opinions known in the RM. Suppose the RM doesn't go through - would you agree with the above proposal I made? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:59, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I would just set about making the invasion article the main going forward and take whatever from here as background. Selfstudier (talk) 21:32, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I support this proposal, there is a distinct phase where it was a conflict and one where it became a war The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 03:54, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I too support this proposal, in-line with my !vote in the move proposal. Mr rnddude (talk) 10:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I note that merging the content into 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon would minimize the events that preceded the invasion; namely, the pager and walkie-talkie explosions, Israel's strikes against Lebanon (חיצי הצפון), and Hassan Nasrallah's assassination. Nasrallah stated that the pager explosions were "a declaration of war", and I'm inclined to believe that began the war against Hezbollah. However, it did not begin the invasion, which officially started on October 1 after brief incursions into Lebanon. I would normally support merging into the invasion article, but there is a degree of separation between the invasion and the war that suggests it is possible to maintain both concurrently, with information about the invasion being minimized in the article about the war. The invasion article, for instance, covers information about the "United States' waning influence" and "Personal motivations of Netanyahu" that is exclusive to the invasion. Thomas Friedman, for one, wrote an article about the anniversary of the October 7 attacks that contains mentions to the "Hamas-Hezbollah-Iran-Israel war"—as much as that framing is comically yet intentionally inaccurate—but omits information about Israel's invasion, which is largely not relevant to his points. As much as I question why an analysis section is relevant in an article about a highly contentious topic, if editors seek to include that information, they would be limited to articles specifically about the incursion. In addition, there is an impact to the aforementioned precursory events through Lebanese displacement, which is an article at Lebanese displacement during the Israel–Hezbollah conflict. An estimated 90,000 people left Lebanon following September 23, when חיצי הצפון (or Northern Arrows) began. In an article about the war, which presumably began on September 17, I would expect to see information about this displacement. Merging the content into the invasion article conflicts with that expectation. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 01:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@ElijahPepe what if merged that content into the invasion article, but rescoped that article to start mid-Sep (and moved it to a more appropriate name)? Alternatively, we can merge the info to a different article about the war.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 16:44, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Options

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The above RM was unsuccessful, meaning this article won't be moved to "war", leaving us with following options that I've tried to illustrate in a table.

Option	Oct 8, 2023 — Sep 16, 2024	Sep 16, 2024 — Sep 30, 2024	Oct 1, 2024 — present	Notes
1a	Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present)	2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon
1b	Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present)	2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon —> 2024 Lebanon war "Third Lebanon war"		Same as option 1a, but requires a RM at 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon
2	Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present)		2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon
3	Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present)	"September 2024 Lebanon escalation"	2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon	A new article is created to cover the events from Sep 16—Sep 30.
4	Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present)	2024 Lebanon war		Create a new parent article, possibly called "Third Lebanon war" that covers events Sep 16—present.
			2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon

I prefer options 1a, 1b or 2 as I think they are the simplest. I oppose option 4, because it requires maintaining two articles in parallel (almost a WP:CFORK). Pinging ( Selfstudier—The Great Mule of Eupatoria—ElijahPepe—Mr rnddude) VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 17:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

2 articles is better than 3, and the invasion was 1 October, so Option 2 for me. Selfstudier (talk) 17:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

2. Having 1a or 1b would mean the infobox about the invasion of Lebanon would mismatch with article contents. Bitspectator ⛩️ 17:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I strongly opposed using "Third Lebanon war", which matches Israel's terminology about the second and first wars. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 20:32, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

2. I agree with Bitspectator that there would be a mismatch between the conflict and invasion articles with 1a and 1b and additionally that 1b leans too much to favouring a specific perspective on the conflict. Mr rnddude (talk) 22:19, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I’d lean towards 1b but with the title “2024 Lebanon war” The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 17:47, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

@Bitspectator@ElijahPepe@Mr rnddude@Selfstudier, what do you think of The Great Mule of Eupatoria's proposal? I've changed the title in the table accordingly.

Alternatively, @The Great Mule of Eupatoria would you also be ok with #2? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 22:59, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I oppose it. The invasion is notable, as is the war, but it didn't begin with the pager attacks. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 23:01, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm OK with invasion atm, this can cover "war" for now. Selfstudier (talk) 08:22, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per Elijah. Bitspectator ⛩️ 17:28, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

@The Great Mule of Eupatoria are you ok with option #2? Are there any strong arguments opposed to it? Otherwise it seems we have WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS for that.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 15:31, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I’m more inclined to option 1b, but I have no arguments against option 2 and still think it would be a good option The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 15:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

We seem to have consensus for option#2 above. This means, I'll go ahead and implement:

• change the ending date in the infobox and lead to Sep 30, 2024, making it clear that the end of this conflict marked the beginning of the 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon.
• Move this article to Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–2024).
• Leave a notice at the end of this talk page, urging users to put post-Oct 1 events at 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon.

VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 12:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 October 2024

Please break DOWN THE DEATH TOLL INTO SEPERATE NUMBERS AS WTH REGARDS TO LEBANON AND ISRAEL. ITS VERY CONFUSING. Meaning Hezbollah, IDF, LEBANESE ARMY, Lebanese civilians and Other Militant groups. Like it was BEFORE 23rd SEPTEMBER. Easily accessible. Hezbollah have stopped publishing their death toll - BUT 808 HAVE BEEEN KILLED SO FAR - According to https://x.com/QalaatM/status/1846182238444048507 2A02:6B6F:F786:6900:2A31:3F17:5F8:B5D4 (talk) 18:30, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Al-Sahl and Sahel Battalion don't seem to actually exist

In the list of units on the Israeli side, it mentions both "Sahel Battalion" and "Al-Sahl Battalion", with both sourced as coming from Al Jazeera: Hezbollah says it attacked Israeli military site with rocket barrage, Hezbollah releases more drone footage of Israeli sites, claims attack on barracks. From what I can gather, these don't actually seem to exist. The only mention of these in English I could find on google is the quotes from Hezbollah, which also Al Jazeera uses, and no mention from before June 2024. In Hebrew, searching for "אל סהל" or "אל סאהל", the only mention I could find is a street in Jerusalem named A-Sahl Al-Jadid, people named סהל, and verbatim translations of the Hezbollah message.

I don't think having a quote from Hezbollah in Al Jazeera is enough to conclude that these battalions exist, not without any other sources, and IMO both should be deleted from the infobox. Nicholas (talk) 19:13, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

It might be possible they said “tzahal battalion” (צהייל) which is the Hebrew abbreviation of IDF, so roughly “struck an IDF battalion” The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 05:17, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

 Done I think you're right. Thanks. Bitspectator ⛩️ 17:52, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Israel casualties way too outdated

The IDF and Israeli civilian casualties are outdated, by a lot. For one no injured, for second it seems like there are missing casualties from the October Israeli invasion of Lebanon, which is a confirmed 22 IDF soldiers dead and 93-97 injured, and 1 Israeli killed and 13 injured in Hezbollah rocket attacks. Also according to Times of Israel, it is actually 1,500 Hezbollah members have died since October 7th. There are also Lebanese soldiers killed, about 7, and UNIFIL injured, about 20. All of these are confirmed casualties by Israel, UN, and the Lebanese government. Mauzer's random BS (talk) 21:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Israeli President's "supposed" denial of the pager booby trap.

In the wiki article it is quoted "On 22 September 2024, Israeli President Isaac Herzog denied any Israeli involvement in the explosions." Now, the president of Israel, Isaac Herzog, did say that he "rejects out of hand any connection" to the operation against Hezbollah in recent days, But in the same breath added that he "did not allude to anything except to say there are many enemies of Hezbollah out there, quite a few these days." when asked on his countries involvement on the matters; neither confirming or denying the involvement. https://www.the-independent.com/news/uk/israel-hezbollah-muslims-benjamin-netanyahu-israelis-b2616970.html 98.187.0.14 (talk) 07:08, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

White Phosphorous Bombs

In the Events sections of Hezbollah's actions related to the Israel Hamas War, there is a mention of white phosphorous bombs being used by the IDF, citation 154. However, the citation links to an article that makes no mention of white phosphorous bombs at all. 2600:1700:52C0:F8C0:7CEA:F20:B575:65C2 (talk) 06:05, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Updating Hezbollah's casualties

I think instead of Hezbollah's casualties being 449+ it should be updated based on the documented casualties published by Hezbollah themselves at 938. TX81 (talk) 18:18, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Hezbollah casualties

There is an account on X that tracks publicly available information on the funerals of Hezbollah fighters killed. They put the number of confirmed dead Hezbollah fighters at 1103. The account is qalaatM. The information appears reliable with accompanying posters of killed fighters uploaded daily. I think we should include this information. 2A13:54C1:F000:90DC:36B7:D436:CD25:4DD1 (talk) 02:21, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

It's been showing as 449 for a long time and no one is updating it, it's truly incredible I guess the editors don't take it seriously 24.133.152.195 (talk) 15:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 October 2024

After review of the source displayed via [71] I believe the 1.4M displacement tally is incorrect and requires further research and inspection. Mentioned paragraph below

"In northern Israel, the ongoing conflict has forced approximately 96,000 individuals to leave their homes,[70][65] while in Lebanon, over 1.4 million individuals have been displaced,[71]" Hadassah112 (talk) 14:37, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Hezbollah rocket attack today

A Hezbollah rocket attack in northern Israel killed 7 people https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce8yjr3zyz8o.amp Mauzer's random BS (talk) 18:37, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

This should go in 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 01:11, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Seriously? “Conflict”?

What’s next? 1,000,000 deaths will perhaps lead us to changing the article’s name to “2024 small scale fighting in lebanon”? Why did my move request get reverted right after i added it 78.182.138.236 (talk) 22:06, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 November 2024

Source [76] nowhere supports the number of 1.4 Mio. displaced but 110,099 in Lebanon.

In northern Israel, the ongoing conflict has forced approximately 96,000 individuals to leave their homes,[75][70] while in Lebanon, over 1.4 million individuals have been displaced,[76]

Should at least be:

In northern Israel, the ongoing conflict has forced approximately 96,000 individuals to leave their homes,[75][70] while in Lebanon, over 110,000 individuals have been displaced,[76]

Further, official sources talk about 102'000 displaced people in Lebanon: https://www.intersos.org/en/conflict-in-south-lebanon/ thereby referring to IOM UN Displacement Tracking Matrix https://dtm.iom.int/reports/lebanon-mobility-snapshot-round-41-08-08-2024 Barthelmes (talk) 17:43, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@Barthelmes, the 1.4 million figure also appears in a number of sources, for example here. I'm not sure what to make of it. Let's mention both figures for now. Alaexis_¿question? 21:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Actually the latest IOM report says that there are 842k IDPs [4], so the discrepancy is not so large. Alaexis_¿question? 21:57, 3 November 2024 (UTC)