Talk:Nightwish/Archive 1

June 2004 - March 2007

POV

The recent commercial success of Nightwish has made some conservatieve fans to label them as pop metal.

Then why do we classify them as such in lead para? Apart from that the label "pop metal" doesn't necessarily describe their musical style very accurately. I also have problems with relabeling because of commercial success. Shinobu 13:40, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I am reverting these edits. --Malathion 14:11, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

To whoever keeps re-inserting the "many metal eletests characterize them as pop metal" bit, please cite a source rather than using weasel language. --Malathion 1 July 2005 23:39 (UTC)

It's allowed to revert such edits on-sight, since "pop metal" was deleted after a fair WP:VfD proccess. The "elitists" part is also POV, so... --Sn0wflake 2 July 2005 02:44 (UTC)

Perhaps the term 'pop metal' isn't the most correct term to use, but Nightwishes most recent album 'Once' has more influences than just metal (obviously), notably classical music, tradional folk music and, well, pop music. The chord sequences rarely use typical metal indications such as lowered fifth's, consecutive minor thirds, or indeed any other strong dissonants. A distorted guitar does not necessary imply a metal genre. Since fitting artists to (arguably POV) labels is a rather futile pass-time, let's keep it on Nightwish being a crossover or mixture between different styles rather than trying to find a contrived and desperate tag. (Music from bands such as e.g. Sirenia and the more recent work of Therion falls into this grey zone, too.) --User:WVH 5 January 2006 05:32 (UTC)

I refernence you all to the symphonic metal and power metal articles. Leyasu 07:06, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Tarja Turunen was kicked from the band

See www.nightwish.com

• We know, it's in the article :pSoothingR 11:09, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oops, forgot to log in to make the change, but i CoralCached the article as the site seems to be getting pwned. Sad day indeed :( -- Plonk420 19:05, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
  • The first part of the article isn't changed yet. Would anyone with better english-skills than me please change the part: "Performed by Tarja.." or something like that :) 217.210.33.250 21:18, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

This article was written by someone who either doesn't speak English natively, or was very high at the time of writing. I can't make heads nor tails out of it. I would like to correct it, but I'm not even sure what the author was trying to say. Please advise?

This article was worked on by a team of proffesional editors all fluent in English, and because of that it reached FA status. If you dont understand it, i suggest getting a dictionary out. Ley Shade 02:19, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you get out a dictionary and learn to spell "Professional" ;-) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 149.235.254.131 (talk • contribs) .

DVD-Singles

What's the policy on DVD-Singles in the discographies? Do we need to list them under DVD Releases as well. I'd see this as generally useless, and I think just stating in the list of singles that the particular single was released on dvd as well, will do fine.SoothingR 08:41, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

• More than 9 days have passed since my original message, and no reply..I'm removing the DVD-Singles from the DVD-section.SoothingR 14:19, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the article explains wrongly the motives to NIghtish part ways with Tarja

The sentence: "the four other members of Nightwish decided to break all ties with Tarja Turunen through an open letter [1], because they felt that her husband – Marcelo Cabuli – and commercial interests changed her a lot and didn't go with Nightwish's attitude anymore" implies a rather personnal interpretation from the letter the guys send to Tarja (and everyone else for that matter). They had the caution not to imply decisively that it was Marcelo´s fault the "apparent" change of attitude in Tarja. They also wrote about the (very known) fact that Tarja did not rehearse nor participate in composition, and was very absent from the band affairs. By the mood of the letter, I think that they implied that the widening in the separation of Tarja from the other members, and her (apparent) increasing demands was the main factor behind her expulsion. They also suggested that it could be Marcelo the one to blame, but they never stated that for as a assured fact. Marcelo´s guilt was only a conjecture, and Tarja´s increasing commerciallism, lack of interest, etc were only examples to try to explain the overall picture. It were not meant to be interpreted as "all the evidence". Only the members of Nightwish and Tarja will ever know the truth. I think the article should be more encyclopaedic on this matter by not trying to make assumptions. Does anyone have a suggestion? Loudenvier 04:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Just rephrase this message without your personal comments and in a NPOV manner. That should do. --Sn0wflake 05:06, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Knowing very little about Nightwish and having just read some articles about the break-up, it seems he does get some of the blame. Such quotes as:

"The band did not criticize Marcelo as Tarja's husband, but as her manager and businessman, and how he influenced the band," refutes the keyboardist. "Marcelo's country of origin has nothing to do with the critique. However, the band still suspects his motives."

And more:

"He ruined everything. She puts blind trust in him, and in my eyes he's a snake. For him it's all about money. You can't imagine how much Tarja changed in a single year. I had no chance to get near her because she was always at his side. Tarja really is a wonderful person, but since meeting Marcelo she's become a completely different person." (last quote: online translation of German magazine Rock Hard #223).

... could be called blame. --User:WVH 06:45, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Ive dealt with her in the past, at Bloodstock 03 and to be honest, i didnt think much of her at all. However, if the band has decided that its her husbands fault, then that is what the band believes. The band believes that, we say that the band believes that.

What we dont say is, 'This is the reason she is a complete bitch', or, 'Her husband did this, that, and the other'. That is accusation and blame.

Citing what the band has said is fine. As long as nobody puts forward their view of anyone into the article, then there shouldnt be a problem. But to solve this, as it seems a bit of a gramma pot:

• "the four other members of Nightwish decided to break all ties with Tarja Turunen through an open letter [1], because they felt that her husband – Marcelo Cabuli – and commercial interests changed her a lot and she didn't fit in with Nightwish's attitude anymore"

Also, remember, that im from England. America and Englands gramma is somewhat different. This often causes a bit of a culture gap. So if your American and you read gramma changes i make and you disagree, please remember im using gramma im familiar with.

That is all. Leyasu 07:14, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Musical style

There is nothing Goithc about Nightwish

They are a Power Metal band not Goithc just becasue a metal band has a lead female singer does not mean they are Goithc. -- Turemetalfan at 21:24, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

But they are gothic because of some of the things they sing about. Sex, death, murder, religion...all the great vices. =FaxCelestis 02:56, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Wrong. They use lyrical themes that are akin to several genres. Murder and Death are akin to Death Metal. Religion is akin of Black Metal. I also suggest you read the Gothic Metal article as to why the band isnt Gothic Metal. It should be most promptly explained simply by reading the section of the Gothic Metal article about what is, and isnt, Gothic Metal. Leyasu 03:03, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Apparently my concept of Gothic Metal is flawed. I apologize. =FaxCelestis 06:18, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the Nightwish is a heavy metal band with lots of symphonics and a female singer. They call themself a heavy band too in the End of Innocence dvd for exemple. Any objection? -- Ijanos 20:50, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

No, not really, except that both Power Metal and Symphonic Metal meet that description. Leyasu 22:05, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Aren't Nightwish a rock opera band? I mean the style of singing is opera. It's opera, with guitars in the background.----SOAD_ROCKS

No they are not a rock opera band. Tarja did use any opera sounding voice. But that was on there 2nd and 3rd CD's. When they got to there 4th and 5th she went away from that. They are Power Metal, and the after forever is gothic, not a power metal banda only epica is power metal —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.58.217.65 (talk • contribs) .

References

Leyasu and I have had a bit of an argument whether or not the inline references should stay or go. I'd personally like to keep it all. It makes it easy to verify and it's just part of WP:CITE. I don't want to let this evolve into a 3RR-dispute, so therefore I'm consulting the rest of you guys. Should we add them back in and follow WP:CITE, or leave them out and follow WP:IAR? SoothingR 16:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Right now there are quite a lot of citations, so I would prefer keeping them as links or references. If all the links are put together at the bottom, someone would need to check every reference until finding the source for their original doubt. -- ReyBrujo 17:33, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

The only problem I find with these references is that the numbers in links are confusing, since they do not link to the item with that number, for example [1] takes you to seventeenth item, while the URL says 'endnote_19'. Readers like me most likely go 'wtf?' and do not use the references ever again. I don't think they should be removed though. -- Parasti 20:56, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Box Set

They have a box set out, I don't know if this is mention-worthy or not in the Discography or something. Just thought I'd note it. You can see it by clicking on the following link: [1]

--Naha|^(talk) 22:20, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Not worth it. All that's in the box-set were previously released albums (Angels Fall First, Oceanborn, Wishmaster and Over the Hills and Far Away.SoothingR 20:08, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

10th Man Down

Is Nightwish responsible for a song titled 10th Man Down? I would also like to know the lyrics to this song. Kanjilearner 22:50, 16 March 2006 (UTC)Kanjilearner

Try this link here. If this site doesnt list it, then they probally didnt release the track. Ley Shade 22:58, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's their song. And lyrics are easily accessible through search engines.—♦♦ SʘʘTHING^(Я) 10:49, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

If you'd also like to know which of Nightwish's albums it's on, it's the second song on Over the Hills and Far Away. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 04:58, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

unofficial releases (bootlegs)

What is the policy on adding a list of unofficial releases (generally known as bootleg recordings to the biography/discography of a band? I think Wikipedia should stick to official releases only. Why? Well, for bands that have sold more than 19 cds there usually are dozens if not hundreds of different bootlegs. Often poor quality, and the same shows are released under several names. Therefor the list is never complete, and can never be checked for accuracy.

Tokus 10:00, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

A little late maybe, but I've nominated them for deletion here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bless the Century Child.—♦♦ SʘʘTHING^(Я) 18:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

NEMS, Drakkar?

I've never heard of "NEMS", which is listed as a record label here, and the article was completely unrelated. Does it really exist?

Drakkar Records I've actually been able to find out a little about, but I'm not sure I'm knowledgeable enough to start an article. Otherwise, I'd edit in a link. Does anyone else feel more confident, or should I just go ahead? BookishAcolyte 07:28, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

NEMS looks like the Argentinian label that distributes Nightwish cds. http://www.nems.com.ar/

Drakkar used to be their label for some parts of Europe, but now they are signed to Nuclear Blast for that. Tokus 10:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I know about Nuklear Blast. I own their version of "Once". But I still feel that links to Century Media and Drakkar ought to be added, but since the only Drakkar article is apparently one about longships, I think someone ought to add an article for that, and the NEMS article has absolutely nothing to do with records either.

Also, a protocol sort of question. What's better, linking to the wrong article, linking to a nonexistant article, or not linking at all? For instance, the link to NEMS in this article. I mean, at least linking to a nonexistant article will point out the need for one. So, if I decided to change this page to add a link to the nonexistant "Drakkar Records" article, and the equally nonexistant "NEMS Records" article, would that be okay? BookishAcolyte 15:37, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've found a lot of information on Drakkar, and I'm going to make them an entry under the name Drakkar Entertainment. Which means, of coarse, that I'll have to fix my links. BookishAcolyte 19:41, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Nightwish Music Videos

This article lacks a list of their music videos. If someone who is more familiar with the band than me could create a list of their music videos it would be much appreciated. Also it would be preferable to have external links going to sites where the videos can we watched free of charge (legally). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.203.54.117 (talk • contribs) .

A collection of their free available videos is [link to copyvio website removed] --Valah 21:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The FAQ on their official forum has a list of released videos and where they can be downloaded legally.--The unexpected 03:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't get the "Download legally" part. Is like saying that the only place to download Microsoft Media Player is Microsoft. Once something has the official authorization from the band to be downloaded, it can be downloaded legally from any other place--Valah 10:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Nightwish logo

It is just me... at 1024x768, the logo is barely readable...? -- ReyBrujo 02:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe turning it into a SVG would fix that. The thinner parts of the words can't be seen, at least down here. -- ReyBrujo 02:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I noticed this too... Is anybody able to fix it? —Squalla 00:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Fixed--Neo139 21:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Samppa Hirvonen

Why the heck is Samppa Hirvonen article named Samppa and not Samppa Hirvonen ? I just don't get it. Samppa is a very common name in Finland. ---Majestic- 17:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Good question... I'll move the page to Samppa Hirvonen. Any additional info on Samppa Hirvonen (such as date and place of birth) is also welcome. —Squalla 18:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Nightwish is not a Gothic Metal band

They have not know nor will they ever be a Gothic metal band. Just becasue they have a female singer that does not make them Gothic. They are a Power Metal band or as what is listed by many others as a Symphoinc Power Metal band. But they are in no way Gthic Metal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.245.83.180 (talk • contribs) .

Power Metal??

Certain unidentified users have been labeling Nightwish as a power metal band. I would like to point out a number of aspects of power metal which are seldom or never heard in Nightwish's music:

• continuous double bass drumming (almost never heard)
• fast and demanding guitar solos (do they even have any of these?)
• generally uplifting and optimistic lyrics (compare with bands like Helloween, Stratovarius, Queensrÿche, etc.)

If someone changes the current genre listings, they should present a cogent argument in the talk page if they want their edits respected.

As for the gothic metal controversy, I don't think Nightwish really fits the gothic metal term, but I don't have particularly strong feelings about it either way. In my view, Nightwish has little to do with bands such as Moonspell, Tristania, or Type O Negative, which are considered gothic metal, and Nightwish's image and sound don't have much of the trademark morbidity or "Victorian" aesthetics typically associated with gothic music. I think it may be worth keeping a note in the article about the genre dispute, though.

Again, if you disagree with the genre classifications, please give a clear argument with examples rather than just saying "it is" or "it's not". G Rose 04:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed that the "gothic metal" references in the intro paragraph were switched in by an anonymous user with no explanation given, so I've removed them. G Rose 05:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• continuous double bass drumming (almost never heard)>>> Power Metal bands don't always have continuous doble bass drum going. And yes Nightwish does use double bass listen to there frist three CD's.

• fast and demanding guitar solos (do they even have any of these?)>>> Yes they do have guiter solos but not all Power Metal bands have them fast and demanding listen to a band such as Kamelot VoA they are both power metal bands and do the same thing as Nightwish.

• generally uplifting and optimistic lyrics (compare with bands like Helloween, Stratovarius, Queensrÿche, etc.)>>> Ever heard of Singery? Not all there lyrics are uplifting.

Nightiwsh use keyboards which is found a lot with in power metal with such bands as Magica, Dargonforce, VoA, etc, infact Nightwish like those other bands will at times even have a keyboard solo. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.245.83.180 (talk • contribs) .

Of course there are exceptions. There are bands grouped under just about every known genre of music who do not fit all of the "qualifications" of the genre. Genres serve to give the listener a basic idea of what a band sounds like, and to direct the listener to similar bands which might be of interest.

To argue that Nightwish is a power metal band simply by claiming that "not all power metal bands" share a number of core characteristics of power metal is a meaningless way to classify a band. Should we list them as a death metal band because Tapio Wilska sings death grunts on two of their songs, and because not all death metal bands have blast beats, fast tempos, etc.?

In my opinion, the only suitable genre for Nightwish is symphonic metal (or its subgenre opera metal). Can you give me any defining characteristics of power metal which appear frequently in Nightwish songs, and which aren't already covered by symphonic metal? An argument based on possible exceptions is not one I find convincing. G Rose 15:40, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Ever thing in there frist three CD's. The fact that the use double bass drumming. That they have gutiar solos like other power metal bands. The fact that main of the songs in there first three CD's have a very big fantasy feel to them. What Goth metal band makes a whole song about Disney? CC you could say is some what Gothic. But then when you go into Once it is symphonic metal. So Nightwish are a Symphonic Power Metal band. Or just a Power Metal band or Symphoinc Metal.

I mean really if you we by

• continuous double bass drumming (almost never heard)
• fast and demanding guitar solos (do they even have any of these?)>>>

I mean if we go by what you said here that would mean that Children of Bodom are a Power Metal band. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Turemetalfan (talk • contribs) .

I'll agree with you partially on the double-bass drumming. Though they've moved away from that in Once, much of the drumming in the previous albums is power metal style, though by the standards of many power metal bands it is hardly as emphatic. Compare to Stratovarius, Kamelot, DragonForce, etc.

Where I still see almost no similarity is in the guitar style. To quote Wikipedia's power metal article:

• "Power metal guitarists and bassists generally play rapid streams of notes"
• "Fast and demanding guitar solos ... are almost guaranteed"

In most Nightwish songs, there is nowhere near this kind of emphasis on guitar technicality. Nightwish is much more keyboard-oriented.

There's also the tone of the music to consider. Power metal is often described as "happy" sounding, with an abundance of major chords, whereas Nightwish tends to have a deeper, more minor sound.

Abundance o MAJOR CHORDS??? Please, show me a metal band that does that!!! Power Metal has no abundance of Major Chords. The sound is explosive, but it's mainly exposed in minor keys. Regards Loudenvier 11:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The "fantasy feel" of Nightwish's music is common to many genres of metal, not specific to power metal. Right now the only similarity I see to power metal is the drumming on some of their albums. I could see having a note in the article about power metal-esque drumming on their earlier albums, but I think labeling the band's genre as power metal is inaccurate, given the differences in melodic tone and guitar style. G Rose 21:44, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Nightwish's guitar leads and feel is similar to Power Metal, but it doesn't also make them a power metal band. Loudenvier 11:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• "Power metal guitarists and bassists generally play rapid streams of notes"
• "Fast and demanding guitar solos ... are almost guaranteed">>>

Blind Guardians does not have fast and demanding guitar solos (although it has impressive guitar leads). Loudenvier 11:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

And Nightwish does that on there first three CD's. Which is way a band like Visions of Atlantis is comperaed to them. Both bands have fast guitar solos. Listen to the song Crownless, Wishmaster, FantasMic, Sacrament of Wilderness, Devil & The Deep Dark Ocean, Moondance, or even Passion and the Opera. There are very fast and demanding guitar solos.

They are a Power Metal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.245.83.180 (talk • contribs) .

The big problem with genre classification: Power, Symphonic, etc

The problem is simple: We cannot fit Nightwish in a genre WE think it falls under. This would be POV of the editor part. We must find sources and cite them. It would be easy: All Music Guide, bnrmetal, etc all provide a reliable references. Any other editorial behavior over a controversial matter would be POV and prone to revert by not abiding to wikipedia guidelines of No original researh, NPOV', Verifiability. Regards Loudenvier 11:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• Harm us: Neoclassical power-metal [2]
• Allmusic: Goth-influenced "symphonic metal".
  • Styles:
    • Heavy Metal
    • Goth Metal
    • Symphonic Black Metal
    • Progressive Metal

Perhaps it's best only to refer to some sources to substantiate the genre classification, this way, perhaps, other editors will refrain from changing the article if after each genre classification there is a proper reference. Loudenvier 11:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Good point, though I'm still not sure how to act in a situation where I find someone adding genre classifications which I believe aren't accepted by the genre's community of listeners. Am I within my rights to delete such a claim if it is not backed by a reference? It would be nice to have a Wikipedia policy on this topic. G Rose 15:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

There's no need for a new policy because there's already policy on this topic: any claims that you think controversial, if not backed-up by a proper reference, you can simply delete it, or, better yet, put the {{fact}} template (looks like this: )for a while and then, if no reference is made in time, delete or change it. Wikipedia is a collective collaboration efort. Common sense and discussion are the ultimate guidelines. Loudenvier 16:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, Nightwish's genre classification is blurred. To me they sound Power Metal in a neoclassical framework. They're sometimes symphonic (I do not count operactic vocals as symphonic, I count only arrangments, which they sometimes employ). They are gothic influenced (lyrics, appearance, background, mood, etc.). It's best to avoid a direct label such as: Nightwish is a power metal band, because it would be POV (unless it was stated on their official site). The current intro is somewhat on its way to be uncontroversial, just a few changes and the addition of some references will make it shine! By the way (again), Nightwish is a great band (although I did prefer their early efforts to their later...) Loudenvier 16:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Album gallery

This change may make the article lose its featured status, as it can be considered purely decorative. Most articles with this kind of gallery were stripped down lately. I don't see the point of including a gallery when the current layout is fine enough. -- ReyBrujo 02:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Umm...well...I just wanted to make it more atractive, but if that can affect its featured status, just delete it. Armando 02:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It is not that the status is important, but the Fair use group is spending quite a lot of time removing galleries from everywhere, and bringing that distress here as well would only stress us a lot. We can try again when there is a firm policy about what can be done. -- ReyBrujo 02:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Also take in mind that this article would never have gotten its featured status in the first place if the gallery wasn't removed from it. But I agree with Eacz12 that the Discography section was rather unattractive due to its length. I've tried to fix that by making two groups of two lists, instead of just two long lists. Personally, I feel this made the article much better.—♦♦ SʘʘTHING^(Я) 05:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, good idea...it looks much better...

Tarja's open letter

Tarja's open letter in response to her expulsion from the band is cited as a reference in the article at http://www.tarjaturunen.com/en/tarjaletter.html from last October 31. It's no longer available from her web site, and nor is it on archive.org. Anyone know another source for the text of the letter? Cain Mosni 20:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for expressing your concerns. I've fixed it.—♦♦ SʘʘTHING^(Я) 20:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Asked here. -- ReyBrujo 20:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Apparently, Google cache does not have it anymore. Only the dutch and spanish versions. -- ReyBrujo 20:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Uhm?...Rey? I take it that the removal of my previous comment was an accident?—♦♦ SʘʘTHING^(Я) 21:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, sorry, dunno why I didn't see the clash warning. Sorry again. >_< -- ReyBrujo 21:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Over the Hills and Far Away EP

Should the Over the Hills and Far Away EP really be under singles. The single version of Over the Hills and Far Away is almost not existent, The Official Nightwish website lists Over the Hills and Far Away in with the other albums and it means that every other page related to Nightwish will need to be updated to reflect the change. Rainer1 02:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Over the hills and far away is available in special Nightwish box sets, it is quite notable. The EP, i think, is also listed on the Nightwish website with some extra songs on. (Neostinker 17:12, 22 September 2006 (UTC))

List of concerts

At the end of the A Day Before Tomorrow documental there is a list of all Nightwish shows, including date. In case we need to date a concert, we can verify dates there. -- ReyBrujo 04:59, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, they DID have a US tour...

Their biggest U.S. hit, "Wish I Had an Angel", made it onto 2 U.S. film soundtracks, as a way to promote their first North American tour (scheduled, but then cancelled due to conflicts with vocalist's solo career).

I believe the tour in question was indeed cancelled, but it wasn't their first US tour.

Nightwish has actually been to the US twice. Their first appearance was at Prog Power IV in the fall of 2003, followed a couple of days later by a show in New York and one in Canada. Not much of a 'tour', granted.

Their second visit to the US was in the fall of 2004, where they did a tour of 14 (I think) cities in the US. I don't have the precise details on the tour, but I personally attended two of the shows (Hollywood and San Diego), and have numerous friends that attended the San Francisco show, so this tour most certainly happened.

Nightwish did also have a tour scheduled for late 2005, which was cancelled after tickets went on sale, but it wasn't their first tour in North America or the states. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.113.45.241 (talk • contribs) .

A tour is a series of performances throughout one or more countries. You listed two seperate gigs, which took place one year after each other. Thanks for your point though.—♦♦ SʘʘTHING^(Я) 08:07, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you missed this line: Their second visit to the US was in the fall of 2004, where they did a tour of 14 (I think) cities in the US. I checked, it's actually 12 shows in the US, which I think meets your definition. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.171.51.189 (talk • contribs) .

Inspiration

Quoting the End of Innocence DVD,

"Third and the Mortal, Theatre of Tragedy and The Gathering – those bands were a great inspiration at the time."

A pity I don't understand Finnish, but the subtitles are fine enoguh. -- ReyBrujo 05:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Add Stratovarius: At that point Stratovarius was a huge influence for everybody – and you can hear that on the album, too. -- ReyBrujo 05:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Ruomors are just that

Just a few things. NO roumors about who Nightwishs new singer should be posted until it is put up on the main Nightwish page. No roumors about Floor of AF, Simone from Epica, Liv from Leave's Eyes, etc should be posted. They are just that roumors that are false and not true. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.245.83.180 (talk • contribs) .

Actually, if we have a reliable source where a determined singer is rumored to be the next one, it could be included in the article. We can't, though, include rumors coming from forums, mailing lists or fan sites, though. -- ReyBrujo 03:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Gossip news is just that gossip and should not be put into the Nightwish section. That's what I'm saying. Unless it is put up on Nightwish mainsite ot one of the other bands sites then it should not be put on here. The best reliable source comes from the main web sites of the bands. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.245.83.180 (talk • contribs) .

Actually, according to our Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:Verifiability guideline and policy, primary sources (in this case, the band website) is not a reliable source. We need to use secondary sources for most of the information, and primary sources should be used only when absolutely necessary. -- ReyBrujo 15:21, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Not Gothic Metal

Nightwish is not Gothic metal. They have very few if any songs that have a gothic sound in it. Most major sites don't even list them as Gothic Metal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.245.83.180 (talk) 01:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

US is not the World

Any source or reason for the following? US is not the world. Is it appropriate to tell so much about US in the start of the article? Maybe Europe have evaluated Nightwish much longer before?

they did not achieve worldwide fame until the release of the album Once (2004). This album led to Nightwish video clips being shown on MTV in the United States and inclusion of their music on U.S. movie soundtracks. Their biggest U.S. hit, "Wish I Had an Angel", made it onto two U.S. film soundtracks, as a way to promote their first North American tour. They later produced three singles and music videos for the album, and "Sleeping Sun", from the 2005 "best of" compilation, Highest Hopes, prior to vocalist Tarja Turunen's departure.

--Ilya K 17:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree; this passage is misleading. They've been famous in Europe and South America ever since Oceanborn came out. I'll change the passage. Óðinn 15:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I also agree. Currently it sounds like outside of their home country they were nobodies until the became popular in the US, when this is obviously not the case. The Kinslayer 15:50, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Very good edit. Nightwish is very popular in Brazil since Oceanborn. In fact the last album wasn't so welcomed here as the previous two... Loudenvier 17:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Opera and Epic Metal

I think the top of the page that mentions Opera and Epic Metal shouldn't be included on the page because Epic Metal is basically just a synonym for Power Metal and Opera Metal doesn't exist, though it is used by a few people who seem to have a lack of knowledge of opera and metal genres. Just because Tarja Turunen is a classically trained Opera singer it doesn't mean that the band is an opera band. I do agree certain songs are very operatic but over all, I feel it doesn't fit.

SpinePastry 20:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Singer

Any word of the new singer ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.74.178.114 (talk • contribs).

Yes, it will be announced with the new single, on May 30, 2007, not before (unless it is leaked). -- ReyBrujo 02:11, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't edit

I am about to change the appearance of the discography, so please don't change it back as I'm in the middle of it. Okay? :) AkiShinji 15:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Done. AkiShinji 15:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)