Talk:Nightwish/Archive 2

March 2007 - October 2008

Please Note

This Discussion Page is archived using permanent link archiving method. Rainer1 00:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Album Gallery

Please note that an album gallery style discography is considered an unnecessary usage of image fair use and is grounds for removal of an article's featured status. See Discussion Archive 1 for the original debate. Rainer1 01:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

If you'd like I started a discography for Nightwish that still needs some work and an Album Gallery would work there and not run the risk of making the main article lose it's featured status. Here's a Link. Rainer1 05:06, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Edits

I streamlined End of an Era and Successor to Once sections. I just felt that the same info was being repeated over and over, and that too much information was presented in a blog-style format, not the encyclopedia format of wikipedia. I also decided to move everything regarding the new singer into the Successor to Once section, partially because I felt the new singer pertained more to the new album, but also out of respect for Tarja; the End of an Era section I felt should be more focused on Tarja — the new singer would mark the beginning of a new Era, not the end of an old. CyminX 00:28, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Not sure why my edit keeps getting removed. I even cited the source of the information which had quotes from the band members about the new vocalist.70.58.115.76 01:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Possible FAR

There is a chance this article will be nominated for Feature Article Review - for criteria 1.a (one sentence paragraphs, short stubby sections) and 1.c (insufficient amount of inline citations, "reached number 3 in the Finnish chart, yet no reference for it. (heaps of unreferenced statements etc etc Giving you the heads up. M3tal H3ad 11:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I saw that one coming for miles. I'll fix this article once I graduate (two months left) and the new singer is announced. —♦♦ SʘʘTHING^(Я) 16:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Guess i was right.. M3tal H3ad (talk) 03:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Faster, Harder, Nightwish

Although the information appeared in the band's page, I kind of distrust of them until a reliable source informs about this (remember, primary sources are discouraged). And since this is April 1, and as far as we knew Nightwish was not going to change their style (they were recording a 14 minute requiem, if I recall correctly), I will advice people to be careful, at least for today. -- ReyBrujo 04:25, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

God, are you blind? It was told in the chapter Faster Harder Nightwish that this probably was an April joke. As well, today, the website told that this was a joke. I'm putting back the chapter. AkiShinji 09:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

In case you did not notice, I posted this note just as the article went up there after noticing an IP adding the information. -- ReyBrujo 15:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Someone erased the information again. Can someone explain why? I'll put it back there. AkiShinji 12:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

It was removed by anoymous IP User:129.120.244.17 with the reason Deleted rumors and April 1st joke. While funny, and deserving of notice, it has no permanent effect on the history of the band and should not be on the encyclopedic entry. The Kinslayer 12:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

To which I somewhat agree, especially considering no reliable source picked the information, we are using a primary source for confirmation, and the article is near a feature article review due its lowered quality. -- ReyBrujo 13:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Another warning - The Nightwish article keeps getting worse in quality which each edit. The Faster, Harder, Nightwish was a joke and at best should only have a small mention in the article. The big section that is currently there is poorly written and fails to read clearly. Unless people stop adding all these rumours and miscellaneous info, the article is going to lose its featured article status. --Leon Sword 22:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I will try to shorten the text down and move it. I agree that it shouldn't be a part of the history chapter. AkiShinji 22:17, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I deleted the Faster, Harder section twice - I apologize for not logging in the first time. Regardless, there's absolutely nothing notable about a minor April Fools joke. Nightwish is up for Featured Article of the Day and will never reach it if we continue to erode this formerly wonderful article with irrelevancies. --Fulorian 12:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

(Reseting indent) The problem is your preaching to the converted here Aki, it's the one-stop editors that add the junk without consultation. The Kinslayer 08:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Misheard lyrics

no reference to their misheard lyrics!? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.122.44.171 (talk • contribs).

I don't know anything about these, I have just seen some links on YouTube (which I have ignored). This means I don't have an idea of what they are. If you think it is good for fans and others to know about these misheard lyrics, please put the information in. - Aki 14:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not at all relevant to an encyclopaedia article, but funny nonetheless. Check out the link here about the misheard lyrics of "Wishmaster".UnleashTheWolves 03:39, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Misheard lyrics are inappropriate, and nor are they relevant for the article. herlastbreath, 19:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.107.13.210 (talk)

What do you mean "inappropriate"??? Are you stupid or a moron? --84.250.188.136 (talk) 23:06, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Cover Songs

Isn't the Cover songs section unnecessary? If there's not being a single listing, I don't think there should be a cover listing. - Aki 14:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

No-one doesn't really seem to care about this article anymore. I'll delete this part. And DON'T bring it back unless discussing it here first. - Aki 17:53, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Uhm. I will not delete it, but if anyone thinks as I do, delete it. And those who thinks different can discuss it after that. - Aki 17:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Irellevant images

The bottom of the articles has a column of 4 images that add nothing to the article. The covers are pretty, yeah, but they are not even serving their fair use rationale there. Oppositions to me removing them? --Sn0wflake 18:40, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

No opposition from me, nor from Aki. Note that I merged both discussions as they refer to the same fact. -- ReyBrujo 21:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I included these images as they were examples of the Nightwish discography, which was featured in the very same section. If you want to delete them, I can't protest. - Aki 08:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

NW

Tonight, I included that Nightwish is shortened NW. As I thought it would be discussion about this (there are so many fake shortenings going on), I added a ref-thing leading to nightwish.com (<ref>[http://www.nightwish.com Nightwish.com]</ref>). Though, today this was erased by ReyBrujo with the comment "no such reference". Take a look at the news on the site I linked to. On several places, Nightwish is shortened NW (by the main administration). - Aki 08:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Find at least one reliable secondary source using it, please. That they shorten it a couple of times to make the title fit some text box does not mean it is an official shortcut. -- ReyBrujo 12:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you even read the link? It is the official website, so I don't think that this is "lying" or something. And it is NOT for fitting. May I give some examples? "15.03.2007 - PARADISE LOST to support NW on the 2007 US tour". Another one? "We have experienced that there have been fake-Nightwish-members for example at Messenger and ii2-channel lately. Those people have pretended to be some NW-member or from the crew or management". What do you need to get satisfied? - Aki 18:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

This is a stupid edit war. Please, get in touch with Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:No original research. What you are doing is making a conclusion based on a guess: "Since they use NW in a few places, it must be official translation even if they don't specifically mention that NW is recognized as a shortening." Read the site's disclaimer: The authors do not warrant the information provided on this website to be complete, correct or always up-to-date. Also, you should discuss until consensus is reached, not just re-revert. That is why this article downgraded its quality since it became featured. -- ReyBrujo 18:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see if someone else agrees that the official shortcut for Nightwish is "NW" before removing it. -- ReyBrujo 05:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I just checked the group Nightwish on last.fm, and found this several times in the first forum thread I read. - Aki 05:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Anyone can post in a forum, that is not considered a reliable source. This explains it well: Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require exceptional sources. The band's website is considered a primary source, and per this, Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source. You are interpreting, based on your observations, that NW is a shortening. However, forums are not reliable sources, and the website of the band is a primary source, so you need an independent secondary source to verify your claim. Without it, you can add information. -- ReyBrujo 05:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Eva sound download on the official site is named "nw - e" in its meta name (not file name).Lelek 14:12, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Haha. This is a classical case of an all-high-and-mighty Wikipedia overruler throwing his pathetic weight around. Plenty of those here. Also, this article fails to mention Nightwish sucks with that horrible Anette. --84.249.212.126 17:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

i completely agree wit this shortening.--Written by BlackDoggie —Preceding unsigned comment added by BlackDoggie (talk • contribs) 16:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Genres

The genres that are up on the Nightwish article's side-thingie right now is symphonic metal and power metal. But, as lots of people are gagging about that Nightwish is other genres, what difference does it make if these are included there? I don't that's very misleading. I'm adding symphonic power metal and gothic metal immediately. - Aki 10:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Check the archive, there are several discussions about genre, and consensus was thatthey are not gothic. That they have a few gothic songs does not mean they are gothic. Again, find a reliable secondary source stating they are gothic, and then you can add that information. -- ReyBrujo 12:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Now why has progressive metal been added? I really don't much in terms of prog in Nightwish's music. Maybe a little more than some power metal bands but then that isn't exactly difficult. Offski 00:35, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Symphonic metal and power metal fit good enough. leave it be. Zanders5k 21:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Now, who has added Powercore? Please, just leave it be. As Zanders5k says, Symphonic metal and Power metal fits good enough. herlastrbeath, 21:09, 8 January, 2008 (UTC) <

Yeah, I saw you just remove that. I'm not even sure what the fuck powercore is... ≈ The Haunted Angel 20:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

No, just having symphonic metal and power metal is misleading. Symphonic power metal should be stated because some of their songs aren't only symphonic metal or power metal (such as Dead Gardens, Planet Hell, Slaying the Dreamer). And I have also putted progressive metal there with a reference, and referenced other genres.--Nazzzz (talk) 18:26, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Amazon.com is not a reference to a genre. Unless you can point to a real reference then do not put Prog Metal back in there. --98.224.211.86 (talk) 20:57, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's use the special verifiability clause: if you can bring more than just a single reference stating they are a determined genre, that genre can be added. So, find two references that say they are symphonic power metal and it can stay. As I already mentioned, we can say they are pop or rock, but we need references. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 01:40, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

No, I doubt that should be added at all. We've said that they are power metal and symphonic metal, saying they are "symphonic power metal" as well is just overkill. Listing those two genres doesn't imply that their songs are just "one or the other", it implies they can be either, but can also overlap. Otherwise you'd have to change Slayer's genre to "Speed thrash metal", as well as "thrash metal" and "speed metal" already being there. ≈ The Haunted Angel 01:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with The Haunted there. Listing both Power Metal and Symphonic is just fine. Besides Ever thing from CC to DPP well it does have some Power Metal in it is more Symphonic. --Turemetalfan (talk) 02:18, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, but at least let me put references for symphonic metal and power metal. If you find another good reference, you can but it as well.--Nazzzz (talk) 20:26, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Marco describe them gothic, I added it.--85.102.180.27 (talk) 16:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Nightwish's wikipedia is at best laughable. Nightwish has nothing to do with gothic metal, they don't have the typical gothic metal sound, neither the atmosphere, neither the lyrics. How in the hell they're power metal? Their bassist and gitarist are one of the worst I've ever seen. If Marko wants so desperately be gothic metal, I would say that is pretty sad. They're symphonic metal period. But keep it this way, wikipedia is not particulary known for being correct in band's genres (ex: Within Temptation's "The Heart of Everything" being symphonic metal XD). Well, if anyone is so worried about the sources, someday Marko will say they're death metal, and some creepy fan will write that here - would that be true too? Whatever...--Whoever Brings the Night —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.97.15.150 (talk) 10:43, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I really don't understand people who say they are Gothic. Just symphonic and power metal was enough to describe their music. First, I thought that they are progressive but later I was persuaded that they shouldn't be labeled progressive metal. Their main songwriter Tuomas refuses being called goth, and this obstruct you to add Gothic metal there. Therefore I delete it. [Edited]--Nazzzz (talk) 18:09, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

No it doesn't - remember that a band's opinion on their genre doesn't define what genre they are - it's their opinion, and not definate. ≈ The Haunted Angel 00:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

And if the thing you say is correct, we shouldn't be adding Gothic metal there just because Marco thinks that they are Gothic. --Nazzzz (talk) 12:55, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Very well - but I was under the impression there was an actual source for them being called goth metal that was outside of the band? ≈ The Haunted Angel 15:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Whoever is an unregistered user who keeps deleting my comments, STOP. Anyway, that above comment by 85.97.15.150, I am pretty sure that is from the Epica debate, you just replaced everything with Nightwish references? Also, I agree with the symphonic metal and power metal under genres. Not gothic, speed, or anything else. Seriphyn (talk) 09:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Just like I have said, I don't believe that they're goth metal but there is six sources that say gothic metal. Shouldn't it be added? (copy-paste from List of gothic metal bands)--Nazzzz (talk) 11:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Sonic Cathedral well a great place is a store and most of the people that review stuff there do it in there free time. It's about as good as using Amazon.com as a source which is to say it's bad source to use. It's any online store that is about metal bands with lead female singer. Most people don't seem to know that though. Also Revelationz.net does not list them as Gothic. They list them as symphonic power metal. Then for Metal-observer they have many different reviews for there different albums with the genre all over the place. Not a very great source when But the one they use the most is symphonic metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 01:29, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Nightwish is not power metal, neither gothic metal. The power metal reference should be removed. --82.67.73.27 (talk) 15:52, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Heres what I think. Anyone who is saying Nightwish is "power metal" is wrong. They aren't gothic metal either. Gothic metal uses "beauty and beast" vocal arrangements. Nightwish rarely does. the term "neo-classical metal" should be added to the genre list, as there is a pronounced classical part to the music, such as a classically trained singer, and a full philharmonic orchestra as well. Also the guitar at times has a "shred" feel to it. So add that genre to the page.. or let me do it JazzlineB (talk) 00:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the fact it is not gothic metal, but I don't agree with the "neo-classical metal". Many bands use philarmonic orchestra, even Iced Earth did. That does not make them neo-classical metal band. And I think Nightwish really don't match the description from the Wikipedia article on neo-classical metal. Symphonic metal will be enough ...--82.67.73.27 (talk) 00:40, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Media samples

I made a list of the four media samples on MediaWiki that I could find. If I have missed something out, please put that in. - Aki 09:41, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Otheruses template

Don't know how many times I have reverted this... but Nightwish (song) is a sub-stub which is a direct child of this article and which exists at most for the sake of completeness. There's absolutely no need for it to be in a otheruses template, more so because it is cited both in the article and in the template. --Sn0wflake 14:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

New Singer

Could you please refrain from placing any unfounded information on here. The leak to the Nighwish song is actually on their website, and there has been no mention of the dates being moved forwards for the release of the song or of the identity of the singer.

Also, there is no evidence of Vibeke Stene being the new snger ,and in fact has been discredited by both her and her agency. ~Alosel~ | ^(Talk) 11:42, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not unfounded. The Finnish news section of their website says the identity of the new vocalist will be announced today (May 24) 17:00 Finnish time, that's 14:00 UTC. Internet sales and airplay of the Eva single will start on May 25 in Finland. --VpvFin 13:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

New singer is Anette Olzon from Sweden: http://mirror.nightwish.com/fi/band/members/facts?id=16. I dont trust my English so much that I would write it down, so somebody else can do that. 62.78.227.229 14:15, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear, I was going by the English section which still has the 30th as the date for both :) There has still been a lot of rumour and whatnot circulating ~Alosel~ | ^(Talk) 12:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Whoa! Currently the biographical information has Anette Olzon listed as a former member and Tarja Turunen listed as a current member. Furthermore, a line in the introduction reads "In May, 2007, former AOR act Alyson Avenue frontwoman Tarja Turunen was revealed as Olzon’s replacement,[2]" Is somebody just messing around or did somebody make a mistake? I'm quite confident that this is exactly the opposite of the actual situation. Tarja was a former member and was replaced by Olzon. Which is what the Nightwish web site says as well. I'm going ahead and changing this...let me know if there are any concerns. Chrieraux (talk) 04:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Lineup

I just changed the image in the template on the article to their new lineup. - Aki 22:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Several users had reverted because the old image is free, and so I had done as well. This is related to our Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria, point No free equivalent Although the other image is outdated, it is free. There had been several discussions about similar topics (like Wikipedia_talk:Fair_use/Archive_4#Up-to-date information more important than license?), and it is usually stated that, if the change in the image could be fixed by adding an image of the change by itself, it should be done. In other words, we can keep the free image of Nightwish and add an image of the singer in the article, especially if free. Finally, note that promotional images of the band are usually deleted because free versions can be obtained. Articles like Lacuna Coil, Dimmu Borgir, etc, have images that do not show in full the artists, however fair use images, complete or newer, are deleted because they are not "impossible" to obtain. -- ReyBrujo 23:35, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Can we switch the main image over to what is used on their MySpace page? It has all the band members, including the new singer. Just a thought.

http://a653.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/55/l_6f001281dc1ecf7a16b13502be313fec.jpg

Sidelko 17:43, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Recently a new band member has been signed for a tentative one year contract. Can not remember his last name, first name is William. He goes to my college. Seriously, no shitting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.190.35.226 (talk) 22:32, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Languages

I know nothing about the Finnish music scene outside of a few Nightwish songs, so I was curious about something and was surprised to not find it in the article. Are Nightwish songs originally recorded in English, or are they (like other foreign artists) recorded in another language (in this case likely Finnish) and re-recorded in English? Furthermore, is this worth encyclopedic mention? JeffHCross (talk) 05:45, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Why would they record in their native language? Maybe they'd write it then translate it into English but as far as I know, most bands I listen to write and record in English. The only one I know for sure is Stratovarius, another Finnish band, who have an interesting view on metal sung in Finnish. Clicky! Offski (talk) 08:43, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Most Russian bands, as far as I have seen, originally record in Russian and then it's exported in English. Same goes for French, German, etc. As I said, I know nothing about the Finnish music scene. If it's common for Finnish bands to record in English, then that's good information to know. But that's why I asked. English isn't an official language of Finland, so I didn't want to assume that they originally recorded in English. That's also why I wondered if it was worth mentioning, because if it's a common thing for the scene, it's immaterial. Otherwise, it may be worth mentioning. JeffHCross (talk) 23:01, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

They do write in English originally, except some songs (that are kept in Finnish), such as Kuolema tekee taiteilijan and Erämaan Viimeinen. I don't believe this to be unsual enough to be mentioned in the article. We might though mention how they write and perform some songs in Finnish, a quite small language - since this is unusual. - Aki (talk) 17:50, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Included. - Aki (talk) 18:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Aki, that's exactly what I was looking for. I was wondering if Nightwish writing in English was the exception or the norm for Finnish bands. JeffHCross (talk) 00:43, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Finnish bands will usually make a “permanent” choice between the domestic market and the international market fairly early on. The bands that (only) target the domestic market will write and perform their songs in Finnish whereas the bands that have (also) set their sights on international markets will write and perform their songs in English. The general expectation seems to be that a songwriter should decide which language is closest to his “comfort zone” or works best for his band and style of music... and then stick to that decision. Songs are typically recorded and released in a single language only. Publishing the same song in multiple languages or releasing some random song outside the band’s “default” language is relatively rare and considered unusual and an exception from the norm – seen more as a one-off “novelty” thing than something that the band is expected to be doing regularly. (That said, some Finnish bands, such as Neljä Ruusua, have tried to reinvent themselves in another language at some point during their career – usually by switching from Finnish to English – but these attempts have typically not been met with too much success.) — Jukka Aho (talk) 08:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup

This article severly needs cleanup if it is going to keep FA status. I counted 12 fact templates, 7 dead links, and tons of other issues. If it is not cleaned up in 7 days I am going to submit for a reassesment of FA status.
Thank you,
Skeeker _[Talk] 23:01, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I've been going through the History part a few times, and right now I'm going through the whole article top to bottom. Anyone willing can help me find sources on Google or whatever. - Aki (talk) 17:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Success

A little comment on the reverse: "(cur) (last) 02:23, 7 January 2008 ReyBrujo (Talk | contribs) (59,282 bytes) (Reverted to version as of 23:07, 6 January 2008, level 1 headings should not be used in articles, and we don't need to "create" even more sections for the history. And reference needed for the success) (undo)". It is clearly seen in the "Chart" section that DPP is their most successful album yet. - Aki (talk) 12:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe it is the most successful album, however we need a reference, otherwise we are judging data which is considered original research. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 01:27, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Is there a possibility to refer to the Chart section, since it has the correct references? - Aki (talk) 11:22, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

We need a reliable source saying, explicitly, that Dark Passion Play is their most successful album ever. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 11:31, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Origin

Is this where the band heir from (Kitee, Finland), or the bandmembers? For if it's the bandmembers, it should include Sweden too (Anette Olzon). 83.227.250.153 (talk) 16:30, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

That was me logged out, sorry about that. - Aki (talk) 20:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe that it's only talking about where the band was formed originally in 1996. JeffHCross (talk) 00:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, only the origin of the band which is Kitee, Finland, not the current members, so the swedish flag should be removed! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.223.97.199 (talk) 18:11, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Master Passion Greed single

Master Passion Greed is currently listed as a single in the main nightwish article. I don't think this is correct, at least not yet anyway. It is not listed on the discography on their official website. Does anyone know anymore information about this? Darrkwings (talk) 23:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not officially confirmed, but only rumoured. I don't think there should be any information about "Master Passion Greed" being a single till it is officially confirmed. - Aki (talk) 20:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

History

This has always bothered me but I don't know whether my suggestion will help the article. Anyway, it's always bothered me when the history section was long, that doesn't mean it's unimportant or shouldn't be there, but I've always wanted it to be, wished it could be shorter, or at least broken down into History, and Recent History, where the Recent History section would span the last 1 to 2 years of the bands or it's members activities related to music and touring. I'm unsure whether this is a standard model for FA, and I don't know if I'm the only one who feels the way I do.... but I thought I'd throw it out there...--Sparkygravity (talk) 23:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

New band picture

I upload a new, free band picture from their Stockholm concert. It looks way better than the old one (according to me). That's okay with everyone? - Aki (talk) 15:18, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. -- Bojan  16:01, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Very, very nice! -- ReyBrujo (talk) 16:42, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Sure, Anette doesn't look bloated LOL...but yeah in general it is good, I think we'll stick with that one for a long time yet. Seriphyn (talk) 10:33, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I liked it too however it seems to be deleted. Coerciblely I have put another photo of them. It isn't as good as yours but there isn't better one either.--Nazzzz (talk) 09:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Why was it deleted? - Aki (talk) 16:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know. --Nazzzz (talk) 12:22, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Apparently when it was uploaded to Commons, it did not give credit to AkiShinji. Also, there was not enough information about the permission (the text said Author has given permission of use, but did not have an OTRS ticket to verify). -- ReyBrujo (talk) 19:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I uploaded another photo, since it looks better than the old one for me (seen right side). It is taken from their official website, and from their hidden concert which they put on with the name "Nightwish coverband Nachtwasser" in Estonia. But it is a fair picture, I'm not sure to replace the old one with this therefore I'm asking to you. Is that OK?

Genre

<nowiki>i want somebody to add the genre "rock" to the nightwish article, on their official myspace they are listed as metal/rock. thankyou</nowiki> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.101.101.90 (talk) 23:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

MySpace genre's don't usually count. On MySpace you have to pick from a very vague list, not to mention the fact it's a self source (as in, it's what they call themselves, which doesn't count as a reliable source - in general, MySpace isn't used for genre references. ≈ The Haunted Angel 23:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Nightwish (band)

I have no idea how to set it up, but I was thinking that Nightwish (band) should link to Nightwish. Just to fall in line with the other ____ (band) articles, in case someone decides to type it rather than search. Plus, searching "Nightwish (band)" won't pull up this article directly. 04:41, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. - Aki (talk) 09:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

GA-Class

Please someone make Nightwish to be a GA-Class article. Or explain me how to do. Thank you.--Nazzzz (talk) 18:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Associated Acts

I was concerned at the removal of Sonata Arctica from Nightwish's associated acts. I'm aware that the band now stands on its own two legs, but a significant amount of their early fame came from touring for Nightwish, and if I'm not mistaken, they had the same producer for a while...anyone willing to offer an explanation? Robert Wolf-friend (talk) 20:50, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe that the associated acts thing only refers to band members who have been in other bands, not bands that have worked together in the way you described. ≈ The Haunted Angel 20:54, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but I'll take your word for it for now. I've seen acts that have no people in common associated before. An example would be System of a Down and Buckethead. Robert Wolf-friend (talk) 20:45, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I'll have to look into it. ≈ The Haunted Angel 21:40, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Genre format

Would it be possible to come to some agreement as to how the genres will be listed? It's getting a bit annoying to see nothing but inane caps-vs.-lowercase or comma-vs.-no-comma edits for this article. Cosmic Latte (talk) 11:31, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Discography

Wongm, please stop deleting their discography. Just like 88.255.114.73 said, If we write the info about their albums, we should write their discography. Then let's delete the text about their albums, too (for your approach).--Nazzzz (talk) 12:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I just don't see the point in repeating the listing in two places. However, I have just realised the one in this article has the covers in it. I'm not sure if the non-free image dohickies let you use cover art outside the article on the album itself. However, it seems more people want it there, so we might as well leave it. Wongm (talk) 02:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Genre

Europeans like myself will be offended by hearing their favorite metal band "rock" They put Rock on their myspace cause Symphonic Power Metal is a sub genre of Symphonic Metal which is a subgenre of Heavy Metal which is a subgenre of Hard Rock which is a subgenre of Rock which is a creation from Jazz (Confusing i know).

If every metal band (Machine head,Norther,Gorgoroth,etc) are "Rock" they'll be mass confusion like "Machine Head is Randomly screaming rock" or "Killswitch Engage is an African American guy replacing a white guy rock"

Best if you put it as "Nightwish is a symphonic power metal band_____" Replacing "Rock".

Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryan Zeron (talk • contribs) 03:45, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

European fans of power metal like myself will be offended by hearing Nightwish being a power metal band. See the Genre controversy on this page. --82.67.73.27 (talk) 15:52, 14 September 2008 (UTC)offended

Just leave the generic genre.--82.151.153.118 (talk) 08:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

The source says metal, so I have corrected it and removed the dictatorial comments --Nate1481 09:42, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

A page in their official site says that "... Finland's biggest rock band ...". [1]--Nazzzz (talk) 14:22, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Now the source it there fair enough, however I am removing the comments as unjustified. (they were the reason for my initial revert) --Nate1481 14:31, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Also user 82.151.153.118 please don't revert past other edits and re add spam links --Nate1481 14:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Also as I am now annoyed by said threats I should point out that as you kindly noted Metal is a sub genre of rock, so metal would still be accuract, and more precise, and it could be said that they should be listed as Symphonic Metal or Symphonic Power Metal, or being more generic they play 'pop music' or just 'music', both of which are less helpful because it give less information. IF they range reguarly included other rock sub genres it would be sensible to be genric, however, as it does not it would make more sence to be informative. I should also point out that as a primary source it is explicelty NOT the best source, but reviewers anf music comintators opinons of the genre would be beter. Thankyou. --Nate1481 14:48, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

So we are changing the rules here in the middle of the game. First we could not use band websites. Now we can. Damn Wikipedia does not know how to make up there mind. They are a metal band. Unless you are going to go around to all the though metal bands wikipedia pages and change there genre from metal to rock it stays at what it really is METAL. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 22:24, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Beside Toumas has never called there band a rock band. He has called them a Metal band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 22:28, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Then again he has. He has called Nightwish "rock'n'roll" over and over again, for example in the "Nightmail" section of Nightwish.com as well as the official Nightwish biografi by Mape Ollila. - Aki (talk) 18:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

not enough, though. Metal is a subgenre of rock music.--85.101.255.184 (talk) 18:37, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Is this rock/metal edit war ever going to end? -- The27thmaine (talk) 22:28, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Heavy Metal/Metal is it's own genre you are opening up a can of worms in which ever metal band is be it a Death Metal band, Black Metal band, Power Metal band, etc is now part of the Rock genre and that's just not true so unless you are going to go to all the different pages of metal bands and change there genre stop putting rock. The person who is putting it there is putting it there because they are offended that Nightwish is a called a metal band. Also Nightwish dose not edit that page the webmaster dose and a webmaster is not in the business of telling the person who started the band what kind of music they play.

C'mon guys, I don't think putting 'metal' in the first paragraph would hurt at all - we all know that they are metal, and if you wish to change that to rock because metal is apparently a subgenre of rock, then consider all the other bands' articles you're going to have to go between and change it to rock - even bands ranging from Metallica to Gorgoroth ≈ The Haunted Angel 00:26, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Haunted Angel 100% here. I also have to say again that Metal music is it's own genre now and has been that way for years. Just like I said last time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 12:17, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Wow so win Nazzzz he changes the rules. Ever place in the net says Nightwish was a Metal band and it was agreed what genre they played. But no when Nazzzz is losing he changes ever thing to fit in with his views. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 13:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

To do

• "Nightwish Demo" - References, pictures
• "Angels Fall First" - References, pictures
• "Wishmaster" - References, pictures, development (more info)
• "Over the Hills and Far Away EP" - Pictures
• "Century Child" - Pictures, development (more info), change of musical style
• "Planned new album" - References

- Aki (talk) 13:12, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Archived

I have just archived the talk page from March 2007. - Aki (talk) 11:50, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Planned 2009/2010 album

For eventual discussion about this part of the article, see it's own talk page. - Aki (talk) 12:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Holopainen's backing vocals

Is Holopainen's backing vocals worth mentioning? He performed vocals on four songs on Angels Fall First back in 1997, sure, but except that it's just two songs, one being on an EP. I'll delete it from the line-up section. - Aki (talk) 13:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

No, I found a live performance of "Beauty and the Beast" in 2000, with Tuomas on vocals of course. See this video.--Nazzzz (talk) 12:57, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Nightwish did not pioneer Female singers in heavy metal music

Nightwish was early identified as pioneers in the field of female heavy metal vocalists, being laughed at in their early years —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 16:54, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

That whole statement is a slap in the face to people such as Doro and The Gathering who were doing what Nightwish is doing now. In other words that is a false statement and discredits Doro who is the real pioneer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 16:57, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I haven't said that Nightwish was the first band with a female metal singer, ofcourse they weren't. Still, they were among the first, and they were among those who popularized female metal singers, and made it more common. Galileo Galilei wasn't the first believing the sun was in the center of the solar system, yet he was still mocked for this belief. Same thing. Also observe this is wellsourced material. From page 62 in the English translation of Mape Ollila's "Once Upon a Nightwish":

"In 1997, a female vocalist was still a curiosity [...] and crude comments like 'Metal and tampons don't mix' and 'a woman's place is in the backstage giving head' were quite common in those days. [...] Female singers were relatively uncommon and the few women that gave it a shot often were often met with prejudice and sarcasm. The best-known female-fronted band at the time was probably The Gathering from Holland."

- Aki (talk) 08:53, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Lita Ford need I say any more? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 13:11, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Instead of coming up with new example, read what I just wrote. - Aki (talk) 17:04, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The continuing post in this discussion was posted in my talk page, and that is the exact text copied in here beneath:

All I'm point out is that it's flawed in what it is saying. A lot of female fronted bands are not taking things from Nightwish. On top of that Women such as Doro, Lita Ford and bands such as The Gathering are the true pioneers of female fronted metal. Also the term female fronted is aimed at any band that plays Black, Death, Power, Prog, etc. It reads in such away that any metal band with a female is A) Gothic B) they are influenced by Nightwish and C) leaving out the fact that female fronted bands play all different kinds of metal. To-Mera for example has taken nothing from Nightwish. Arch Enemy is Melodic Death metal with a lead female.

Nightwish was early identified as pioneers in the field of female heavy metal vocalists, being laughed at in their early years as they followed bands such as The Gathering and Doro[49]. According to Holopainen, the idea of Nightwish wasn't as brilliant as it may sound - to mix styles of female operatic vocals and metals - but it was a mere coincidence as Turunen was asked into the band while they still were an acoustic project, and then things eveloped by themselves. The usage of a female vocalist has however become a sort of trademark, though less so since the outbreak of new female fronted metal bands in the mid-2000s with the popularization of bands such as Evanescence and (the later) Within Temptation, and several gothic metal bands mixing female and male vocals, such as Tristania, Epica and the early Within Temptation.>>>>

That just dose not read very well at all. I would say it would be better worded a long the lines of Nightwish helped to push Female fronted metal to the front or something like that. I would also drop the Gothic Part as being the only genre to mix the female and male vocals. Ram-Zet, and The Project Hate also mix female and male vocals. Besides that really has nothing to do with the music style at that point. It's just saying to much and then gets away from being about Nightwish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 21:11, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Within Temptation did not follow Nightwish, both bands were founded in 1996. This is not to take anything away from Nightwish playing a role in how bigh Within Temptation has gotten, but to note that that street ran both ways -- and to underscore that both are part of a second wave that came a decade after women like Doro, Lita Ford, Lee Aaron, etc. pioneered female-fronted metal.- Holzman-Tweed (talk) 14:49, 13 July 2009 (EST)

I am not that into female fronted metal bands outside of the symphonic/power/gothic genres, so I would think you're a better contributer on that field than I am. The paragraph about it in the Nightwish article is actually listing EXAMPLES and not an entire world of music, but I agree that it does make it seem like the only metal bands with females vocalists are either gothic or symphonic, and that could be changed by adding the artists you wrote to me about. But still, I have barely heard of them before, so you go ahead add it. - Aki (talk) 16:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

What I'm saying is cut and down. Epica is already there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 20:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it's more appropriate to say they pioneered Opera metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Koolkory8 (talk • contribs) 18:02, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Compilation albums

In the "compilation albums" field, there are two new 2008 albums, "The Sound of Nightwish Reborn" and "Annual Assault 2008". One of those is a mix of b-sides from Dark Passion Play, and the other one is a mere annual compilation with different Roadrunner artists. The Annual Assault is also proposed for deletion. I take these two away from the discography, if there is no protest. - Aki (talk) 17:55, 20 October 2008 (UTC)