Talk:List of best-selling game consoles

PlayStation 2 sales numbers confirmed to be 160m

In a recent podcast, Jim Ryan confirms in a recent official PlayStation podcast that the PlayStation 2 sold 160 million units. (https://soundcloud.com/playstation/official-playstation-podcast-episode-481-heres-to-you-jim 14:40) The previously reported on sales numbers were over 155m. The article should be updated to reflect this new information. Bro3256 (talk) 20:51, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

It's an hour long podcast. Care to give a timestamp and give a transcript of the relevant part? Sergecross73 msg me 20:53, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

The timestamp is 14:40. Bro3256 (talk) 20:56, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Jim Ryan says "160 million in the 2000s", i.e. before 2010, and yet Sony reports 155 million as of 2012. I don't know that this is a good enough statement. -- ferret (talk) 21:42, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

The exact quote is "The 2000s, that would be uh I would say 160 million which is the number of PS2s that we sold. High watermark" and it's within the context of Jim Ryan going through the decades of PlayStation. It's clear that Jim does not mean 160 million PlayStation 2 consoles sold in the 2000s but rather that's the amount of consoles sold in the lifetime of the PlayStation 2. Bro3256 (talk) 21:56, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

But it's only an oral statement from Jim Ryan, this cannot be count as an official update until there's further information from trustworthy sources or even Sony themselves. Best to just mention it in PS2 in my opinion. Sponge123 (talk) 00:02, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't know, it sounds more like an off-the-cuff approximation of a rounded number than a specific figure... Sergecross73 msg me 00:11, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Jim Ryan is the CEO of a public company, he's not allowed to just say false information about the sales of the best-selling console. The IGN article even says that the last update was 159 million (unofficially), so 160 million is believable. Sony as a company doesn't really have much of a reason to give an official statement on the PS2 sales because they moved on in 2012. This reminds me of how I added to Skyrim's Wikipedia page, that it sold over 60 million according to Todd Howard, but then it got changed because Bethesda didn't officially announce it, (even though it still is valid). 2A00:23C6:D584:5B01:EC76:F361:4066:ACF1 (talk) 01:39, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

So you already understand that IGN relaying the personal statements of individuals making offhand comments on sales in longer interviews isn't something we treat as official. -- ferret (talk) 01:42, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

This isn't some random person, they are/were the CEO of PlayStation, if he says 160 million, then that should be taken as a fact. Otherwise you just leave it at over 155 million, but this is still an official sales update from someone who obviously knows PlayStation very well. 2A00:23C6:D584:5B01:7C3C:5760:5443:1C19 (talk) 04:45, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Again, you cannot take any oral statement about console sales as facts, not to mention Jim ryan only said it at the end of his role as Playstation CEO, in a podcast too (Not to mention chances are he was just rounding the PS2 total sales numbers). And last but not least, just wait and see if Sony makes an offical update on PS2 sales or not. Sponge123 (talk) 10:19, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Unless there's some official financial statements or the like published on the PlayStation website, then Wikipedia isn't going to accept it as an official number for these charts. Jim Ryan being the CEO isn't good enough. Former SIE president Shawn Layden gave us an exact number for the PSP, but I discovered first-hand that that wasn't good enough, either. Even if God Almighty descended from heaven and told us how many units the PS2 sold, it wouldn't be accepted. This site has very exacting criteria for what counts as a valid citation. That's just how Wikipedia rolls, for better or for worse. ShadowOfTheVoid1980 (talk) 18:13, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

To be fair, Layden's PSP figure got rejected because it was merely a tweet about how many were manufactured. It wasn't a sales figure. Sergecross73 msg me 18:21, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

To add what has been already said, Jim Ryan actually makes some factual errors in that same podcast regarding Sony and PS. On the very next point after he mentioned this, he said the most memorable PS moment for him in the 2010s was the "birth" of the Uncharted series. Uncharted Drake's Deception came out in 2007, with the second game came out in 2009, so quite clearly an error. A human one? For sure. But an error nonetheless when there's a debate regarding the validity of his claims.

The point here it's not if it may well be around 160 million units sold - for all that we know, it can really be. But the standard of evidence in Wikipedia is higher than an aproximative ballpark in a podcast where more oral statements are factually wrong. That's why, for all this years, we have always relayed on official numbers and not IGN estimations - but, also, acknowledging that the 150 mill. number it's not completely set in stone, that's why the article has always had that footnote indicating that the number is probably higher. This news reinforces that note, but it's not nearly enough to set it as a valid number.

And no, being CEO not makes you unable to lie. You can't lie in investor meetings - but there's no problem with podcasts. 2.138.181.62 (talk) 12:10, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

If the 160 million PS2 sales figure is accepted then that also gives us a near final PS Vita number of 11.69 million based on the total PlayStation series consoles sales figure of 525.3 million as of July 22, 2018. Both figures could be updated.

Source: https://sonyinteractive.com/en/press-releases/sony-interactive-entertainment-introduces-playstation4-pro-500-million-limited-edition/ 2603:7000:8E00:4900:2C11:75A:DF82:2134 (talk) 13:35, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Where are you getting that Vita sales figure? I don't see that number in the source. Sergecross73 msg me 13:42, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

It's basic math, PS2 and Vita were the only two consoles we didn't have complete figures for. If PS2 is 160 million then Vita has to be 11.69 million. 2603:7000:8E00:4900:2C11:75A:DF82:2134 (talk) 13:59, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Taking an off-the-cuff sales figure from an interview and using it to do math with a completely unrelated press release is definite going to violate Wikipedia's WP:OR policy. Sergecross73 msg me 14:04, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

It is a deductive figure, but this article already has other estimates and similar deductive figures in place of specific official company sourced IR or PR numbers. This wouldn't be the first for Vita even.

I think the veracity of Jim Ryan's statement is debatable, I just believe that if it's accepted then that also establishes a new more concrete Vita figure. 2603:7000:8E00:4900:2C11:75A:DF82:2134 (talk) 14:14, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I hear you, I'm just of the mindset that the Jim Ryan quote isn't good enough, and this sort of math compounds the issues here. Sergecross73 msg me 14:27, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Statista has the PS2 listed with 158,7 mil units sold as of "End [of] February 2024". If the Offical Playstation Podcast can´t be trusted, in what is clearly a Sony PR release to get the press talking, then trust Statista. That site is a universally agreed upon tool for university publications. My own bachelor thesis relied on it and the German version of this very article sources it:

https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/160549/umfrage/anzahl-der-weltweit-verkauften-spielkonsolen-nach-konsolentypen// Even the poor PS Vita managed to get a concrete number here. The Insomniac leak is also filled with all sorts of juicy sales data but all of it is stolen info. That hasn´t stopped Wikipedia from reporting on let´s say Wikileaks though. 2A00:1F:8701:4001:C054:2A8A:B23E:172D (talk) 16:22, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Statista is a deprecated source per WP:STATISTA. Timur9008 (talk) 18:26, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Statista has a website-wide consensus against its use. That's not going to work. Sergecross73 msg me 16:39, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

To add on this, Statistia literally uses Wikipedia for its source half the time. In this case, they specifically cite VGChartz, which has been considered unreliable for sales figures and estimates for near forever. Statista making graphs from VGChartz's data doesn't make it any more reliable. -- ferret (talk) 18:10, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Noting for the record that I archived 5-6 duplicate sections requesting this same edit to reduce clutter and try to keep discussion centralized. -- ferret (talk) 16:02, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

From the guardian today, a bit more than "an approximatation", in that Jim claims the sales figure was celebrated internally "Ryan claims that 160m was celebrated as an internal sales milestone", so they had some of internal "hurrah we just hit 160m". that would suggest not approximate but they hit (and assumedly passed) that milestone Dimspace (talk) 16:49, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Please provide the source, as we have to have it to confirm anything. Edit: Nevermind, found it. Ryan claims that 160m was celebrated as an internal sales milestone, but Sony never actually announced it.. Is this claim actually in the Podcast? What time stamp? -- ferret (talk) 17:28, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Addition of PocketStation to Best-selling consoles list

Is there any particular reason why the PocketStation is not included in the list? The source in its article says it sold nearly 5 million units.

I figure the likely reason is that most editors don't see it as a console (the old PSP image that was here for years claimed that the PSP was Sony's first handheld).

However, sources cited in the PocketStation article do refer to it this way: RPGFan, GamePro TavianCLirette (talk) 14:59, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Because it's not really considered a console, probably. Its article currently describes it as a "is a memory card peripheral", which is consistent with my knowledge of it. It's more of an accessory. Closer to those old LCD game things, or a tomagotchi. Sergecross73 msg me 15:08, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

That's what I'm saying, but by who? It seems as if that's merely describing an aspect of the system. It doesn't help that the article's infobox & categories also label it a handheld console, as do mentions in other articles.

No source establishes that acting as a peripheral is mutually exclusive with being a standalone machine. See also: the VMU (no sales figure for that, though).

Furthermore, among old LCD game machines, the Game & Watch is included in this list, despite being a series of dedicated game-playing machines. TavianCLirette (talk) 15:30, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Sources like this echo what I just said. Or this one from IGN. Memory card with tomagotchi-like features is a common, recurring theme. As this Kotaku feature outlines, it only featured the most bare bones of little mini games. Honestly, it take way more mental gymnastics to try to classify it as a console. Sergecross73 msg me 15:50, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

To be honest, Game & Watch needs to be removed from the list. Yes we know how many units were sold, but they do not constitute a single console and lumping them all together doesn't change that. In fact, it makes it an invalid and misleading comparison. It's not like we include all those Tiger Electronics LCD handhelds lumped together, and they certainly sold enough units combined to be on the list if the Game & Watch line is here as one entry.

Those LCD handhelds also don't qualify because they are electronic games, but not video games, as the screens are only limited to the cutouts built into the LCDs, not actually creating video as the term is defined. They really don't belong here and I'm going to remove the Game & Watch entry. oknazevad (talk) 17:39, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I support that too, for the record. Sergecross73 msg me 17:41, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Thirded. -- ferret (talk) 17:42, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done. Checked the talk archives. There was never consensus to add it. In fact, it was specifically rejected in times past. Why it creeped in I don't know. But if someone in good faith re-adds it, it should be removed again. oknazevad (talk) 17:48, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with that. The Game & Watch doesn't belong on the list because each unit was a single game, with the screen designed for that game. That sales figure would be more comparable to software sales of a console. Thanks, everybody!

Anyway, back to the topic - the PocketStation. Neither of the criteria we've used against those LCD machines applies to it. The PocketStation has various software that it can download from PlayStation discs, including many that are small games.

I'll add that said games being more rudimentary doesn't hold weight against them being games by definition.

Of course, the PocketStation has an LCD screen with proper square grid-based graphics, albeit just black & white. The same can be said of the Microvision, which is called a handheld game console in the article's lead. TavianCLirette (talk) 22:00, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Commonly being classified as an accessory and not commonly being called a console is more than enough reason to keep it off. Sergecross73 msg me 22:09, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

That's a fair argument. However, it can also be applied to home console add-ons, which are also on the list (Famicom Disk System, Sega CD, PC Engine CD-ROM).

Add-ons are effectively accessories for home consoles that let them play certain other games. What's more is, unlike the PocketStation, virtually no source considers add-ons to be their own consoles at all. If the PocketStation cannot be added, then those should definitely be removed. TavianCLirette (talk) 01:21, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I am not going to take any particular stance regarding the G&W. But did you all consider when analyzing, that the first game consoles in history were somewhat different than modern ones? It wasn’t until the second gen with the channel f the interchangeable cartridges appeared. WOWLWOWL 17:27, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Pocketstation, game and watch, tamagotchi, tiger electronics, NES/SNES/etc mini, magnavox odyssey (1 and 2), atari pong and more are dedicated game consoles. I and many others consider them to be game consoles so unless otherwise establishing a criteria to be on this list I believe these should be included for a more inclusive, accurate, better informative list according to the title of itself. WOWLWOWL 18:27, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

You're approaching this from the wrong angle. If items have been removed from the list as a result of talk page discussion WP:CONSENSUS, then you should not be re-adding them until you hold new discussions to show there's a consensus for it. Sergecross73 msg me 19:22, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Are you implying I have added or edited something? WOWLWOWL 19:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

No, nowhere did I imply that. You said that you believe these should be included. Im answering that I disagree with that notion when you're referring to items previously discussed that didn't have support for inclusion. Sergecross73 msg me 19:42, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Saying I believe they should be included unless otherwise stating a set of criteria is not the same as “I will include them”.

What you said sounds like you’re reproaching me about something. So maybe you should be clearer or less intimidating.

”then you should not be re-adding them until you hold new discussions to show there's a consensus for it.” WOWLWOWL 20:06, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

No, it was me saying what would happen if you did what you said you believed should be done. Sergecross73 msg me 22:19, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

And can you see how wrong of a behavior you are showing? For real you need to take a chill pill this is a talk section to discuss ideas you cant be handing out threats like that. WOWLWOWL 23:29, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2024

Edit the PS2 total sales number to 160M from 155M. As per Playstation CEO Jim Ryan its at 160M

Source: Playstation Podcast https://blog.playstation.com/2024/03/29/official-playstation-podcast-episode-481-heres-to-you-jim/ Amolsdk (talk) 18:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done See discussion already present on this talk page. Sergecross73 msg me 18:29, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

What happened to all the 100 million console bubbles and psp bubble?

Just curious as all of the consoles over 100 million (and the psp) had an image on the side with a small description so I am just curious as to what happened to them. 158.135.172.117 (talk) 18:34, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

The 100m console images were removed because they made a large gap between the text & the list in some browsers. Before that, I removed the PSP image because the PSP isn't really notable for any real achievement. Another one that was removed was for the Game Boy & Game Boy Color, but was because they are separate consoles, not notable individually. TavianCLirette (talk) 16:38, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Console weight?

“ Video game consoles usuallyweigh between 2 and 9 pounds (1–4 kg) on average, and their compact size allows them to be easily used in a variety of locations, making them portable.” This statement needs to be deleted, it doesn’t sound encyclopedic but more like a “knowhow” approximation trying to be a fact rather than a engineer data. It also has grammatical issues. To make it more professional it needs to at least address it more accurately. Give a true range from the lightest to the heaviest and specify that the bigger % lies within that in modern times.

PS3 weighs 5 kg PS5 weighs 9.9 lb Xbox one x weighs 9.8 lb

just a few examples not to mention the really old heavy hitters. WOWLWOWL 17:46, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it should be deleted outright. Weight has no bearing on best-selling console tracking. Sergecross73 msg me 17:49, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Completely right. WOWLWOWL 18:37, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Criteria to fit this list

I can see there is a lot of inconsistency with what is chosen to be on this list and not. On one side the list has both dedicated and non dedicated home consoles. One thing to note is that the Odysseys also made dedicated versions and I believe those add up to the units sold being used here. So in that case there is even a mix of dedicated/nondedicated consoles. “ Dedicated consoles are a subset of game consoles that are only able to play built-in games. Video game consoles in general are also described as "dedicated" in distinction from the more versatile personal computer and other consumer electronics.” On the other hand portable consoles only accept non dedicated. Game and Watch not here for example. ” A handheld game console is a lightweight device with a built-in screen, controls, speakers, and has greater portability than a standard video game console. It is capable of playing multiple games unlike tabletop and handheld electronic game devices.”

So this criteria should be specified: For this list, dedicated portable consoles are not accepted but dedicated home consoles yes.

Another example of incoherence is the absence of consoles like the steamdeck because “it doesn’t have its own dev kit”. Dedicated consoles dont have devkits and there are probably other things on this list without devkits. Another criteria that needs to be specified.

There are some add-on consoles but then others aren’t allowed because they are more like accessories to the eyes of someone.

The Nokia ngage which is a phone primarily is here but other consoles with dual purposes aren’t included don’t know why.

The only real criteria established by this article is that it needs to have sold more than 1 million units (which is a shame because it weeds out classics like the Magnavox Odyssey).

I guess where I’m trying to head is that in order to avoid confusion there needs to be a text explicitly stating the scope and limitations of this list. WOWLWOWL 18:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

The 1 million unit sold cutoff

Can this be made only to apply to non mainstream brands? Magnavox odyssey 1 and atari pong aren’t here because they sold less than this amount. WOWLWOWL 18:36, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Sega Master System

How come Sega Master System and Sega Master System (Brazilian variants) are counted as separate systems when elsewhere on the list Game Boy & Game Boy Color get lumped together? Seems disingenuous. 2601:19C:5101:7E50:BC9D:4F7C:6735:4565 (talk) 13:10, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe anyone is trying to be "disingenuous". Some regulars discussed it late last year without any real strong feelings on it at Talk:List of best-selling game consoles/Archive 4#Sega console Brazilian variants. Personally, I just wasn't sure if they should be grouped because of the different manufacturers and timeframes involved. Another editor questioned if they were truly the same thing. A third editor thought they should be merged. Then discussion fizzled out.

If you wish to pursue it, it could be persuasive if you could prove that reliable sources commonly group the figures into one. If they do, maybe changed is warranted. If not, then we should probably keep it as is. Sergecross73 msg me 13:39, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

As for why the two Game Boys are combined, that's Nintendo's fault. As the note states, they only provided combined statistics. It's not us who combined them: The source did. -- ferret (talk) 13:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)