Talk:John Jefferson (American football)

Requested move 20 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: move the page to John Jefferson (American football) and the disambiguation page to the plain title at this time, per a lack of agreement that this page is the primary topic of "John Jefferson". Dekimasuよ! 10:21, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

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John Jefferson → John Jefferson (American football) – There is no clear primary topic.

Page views:

• John Jefferson (American football) Page views in last 30 days: 2,011
• John Wayles Jefferson Page views in last 30 days: 2,894

John Wayles Jefferson is commonly referred to as John Jefferson (eg.)

Pinging @Gonzo fan2007 and Bagumba: from prior discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League § Move of John Jefferson to John Jefferson (American football player) Daask (talk) 12:29, 20 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 13:25, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

• Weak oppose as unnecessary disambiguation. "Wayles" already disambiguates this from John Jefferson and a simple hatnote at the top of the page could point people in the right direction. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:57, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose The click data of John Jefferson does not show John Wayles Jefferson as being among the top outgoing clicks[1] (note that previously, the hatnote explicitly listed "John Wayles Jefferson".) The source mentioned in the nom refers mostly to "John W. Jefferson". It does not appear readers are looking for John Wayles Jefferson by entering the shorter "John Jefferson".—Bagumba (talk) 16:45, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support people do not normally use middle names so we can't assume people know to even if Wayles is commonly referred to with this middle name. Just because an article has a different title and as such doesn't need to be qualified doesn't mean this one is primary just because no natural disambiguation exists for this one. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:19, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

  ... people do not normally use middle names so we can't assume people know to ...: There's no need to assume. The click data shows no traffic from John Jefferson to John Wayles Jefferson.[2] People are not mistakenly entering "John Jefferson". —Bagumba (talk) 17:28, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

  Per WP:NCP people are expected to be titled without middle names unless they are in common usage (and many readers probably won't know to do so) and many people get to Wikipedia articles via Google etc so that may expain why there are few clicks. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:40, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

  You are free to open a separate RM on John Wayles Jefferson if you believe it should be parenthetically disambiguated. But there is no indication from actual data (as opposed to assumptions) that the football player being at John Jefferson is causing any inconvenience to our readers in finding the one with middle name Wales. —Bagumba (talk) 17:52, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. I don't think that outgoing links are a very good measure here. Both Wikipedia's own search pages and external search engines are fairly good these days at helping direct people to the correct page without readers needing to click on hatnote links. Further, there are several other people of lesser notability named John Jefferson (disambiguation). I didn't mention it in the proposal because I thought it sufficient to demonstrate that there is no primary topic. Daask (talk) 18:48, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. These names are WP:NATURALLY disambiguated. The other person is virtually always known as John Wayles Jefferson or John W. Jefferson, even on his tombstone. A hatnote is sufficient for the very rare reader who might wind up here by mistake. No need to force those looking for the football player to a dab page. Station1 (talk) 21:45, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nomination and Crouch, Swale. There are four men listed upon the John Jefferson (disambiguation) page, with no indication that the historical renown of John Jefferson (American football), who played his last game nearly forty years ago, has remained at such an elevated level that it overwhelms the combined notability of the remaining three men. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:46, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support. No primary topic by long-term significance. I wish people would understand that the others having a middle name is utterly irrelevant for disambiguation purposes. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:54, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

  It's not irrelevant when the middle name or initial is commonly used, and it's especially relevant in a case like this where the middle name or initial is virtually always used to identify that person. Station1 (talk) 17:56, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

  ... having a middle name is utterly irrelevant ...: Nonsense. I suppose Jerry Lewis now needs to be disambiguated because, gosh, let's just say that people call Jerry Lee Lewis instead as "Jerry Lewis" ... because who cares, only a middle name. OMG, no primary topic for Jerry Lewis.[3]—Bagumba (talk) 18:10, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

  That's a very rare case where we have two very famous people with similar names. Usually, however, unless one is clear primary topic we disambiguate if two people have the same name, even if one has a middle name or initial and the other does not. Otherwise it implies that the one without the middle name or initial is primary. This is a longstanding naming convention on Wikipedia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:26, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

  No, it reflects that in real life "Jerry Lee Lewis" is not referred to as plain "Jerry Lewis". Similarly, nobody has shown evidence that "John Wayles Jefferson" is commonly referred to without his middle name or initial. This is a solution looking for a problem. —Bagumba (talk) 15:37, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

  Very few people are referred to exclusively using their middle name. I'm not sure Jerry Lee Lewis even had a middle name - I believe his first name was Jerry Lee and that's what he was called. I very much doubt, however, that Colonel Jefferson was called John Wayles by those who knew him! It's just a middle name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:19, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

  I very much doubt, however, that Colonel Jefferson was called John Wayles by those who knew him!: We go by reliable sources, not one's "doubt". And whether his mum called him Johnny or his SO called him Honey or Pookie is irrelevant here. —Bagumba (talk) 17:59, 6 *eptember 2024 (UTC)

  James Fenimore Cooper, Robert Louis Stevenson, Edgar Rice Burroughs, John Greenleaf Whittier, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, William Butler Yeats, David Lee Roth, William Henry Harrison, Francis Lightfoot Lee. Station1 (talk) 03:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

  Not sure if you have a point there. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:16, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

  Everyone knows to search "Firstname Lastname" so unless we have significant evidence this one is primary we should disambiguate. We can't assume readers would know the other would be titled differently than normal. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:01, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

  James Earl Jones. RIP. —Bagumba (talk) 01:20, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support with moving John Jefferson (disambiguation) to the base name. I cannot determine a primary topic. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:40, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, per Bagumba. Naturally disambiguated already with the middle name and the DAB only contains one other entry for a "Jon". Hey man im josh (talk) 14:46, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

  @Hey man im josh: As the Joseph John Jefferson article says, he was usually referred to as John Jefferson. Perhaps it should be renamed to parenthetical disambiguation. Daask (talk) 15:32, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

  Feel free to propose independent of this RM. As that page averages 1 view/day,[4] it doesnt have a bearing on this primary topic consideration. —Bagumba (talk) 16:33, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

  Having a different title doesn't mean this one is primary, see WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:35, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

  Having a different title doesn't automatically make this one primary, but with 66 views per day versus 1 per day for Joseph John Jefferson,[5] this one is clearly primary for the title "John Jefferson" even if it's decided to move Joseph John in a separate RM on that article's talk page. Station1 (talk) 21:48, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

  Wayles is the main issue not Joseph as Wayles has more views. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:51, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

  John Wayles Jefferson would be the primary topic if he were ever referred to in reliable sources as "John Jefferson", but he virtually never is, and it's been demonstrated that virtually no one landing on this article is looking for John Wayles Jefferson. Station1 (talk) 23:13, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom. The page views indicate that John Wayles Jefferson is more viewed than this subject, and there's no particular long-term significance angle. We have never declared someone uninvolved in a primary topic battle due to sometimes being known via a slightly different name. WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT brings them into the mix and this move clearly has to be made.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:16, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.