Talk:Haiti/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Updated with 2009 HDI Figures

Fixed the outdated numbers for the country's Human-Development Index rank. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.179.161.13 (talk) 18:19, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Another big error

Haiti is the only predominantly Francophone independent nation in the Americas, and one of only two (along with Canada) which designate French as an official language; the other French-speaking areas are all overseas départements or collectivités of France.

This is simply not true. The Republic of Côte d'Ivoire, for instance, uses French as its official language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.151.4.122 (talk) 02:31, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Motto

Aren't the two versions of the motto supposed to match? "L'Union fait la Force" translates to "Strength through Unity", and not the "United we Stand, Divided we Fall" the article seems to suggest. Could somebody please verify? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.66.107.205 (talk) 08:55, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Many Skills

"a former slave and leader in the slave revolt who rose in importance as a military commander because of his many skills"

This sounds like mythology to me. I'm not an SME on Haitian history, but "many skills" seems like a note in a 4th grade textbook. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SpaghettiHat (talk • contribs) 05:31, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Gross Domestic Product

Haiti is said to have 91 Billion dollar GDP according to wikipedia...that cant be true because then their GDP Per Capita(PPP) would be much higher than 1,371. The Amounts are wrong and need to be fixed in the Info box —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.118.86.10 (talk) 18:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Relatinship with the US

Can someone please explain me something? The article says that "Following a US-backed Coup D'etat in September 1991 President Aristide was flown into exile."

And a few lines later, says "In 1994, Haitian General Raoul Cédras asked former U.S. President Jimmy Carter to help avoid a U.S. military invasion of Haiti.[6] President Carter relayed this information to President Clinton, who asked Carter, in his role as founder of The Carter Center, to undertake a mission to Haiti with Senator Sam Nunn, D-GA, and former Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Colin Powell.[6] The team successfully negotiated the departure of Haiti's military leaders, and the peaceful entry of U.S. forces under Operation Uphold Democracy, paving the way for the restoration of Jean-Bertrand Aristide as president."

So did the US first manage to exile the Haitian president and just three years later the put him back? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.227.38.85 (talk) 18:46, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

For that matter, did anyone notice that there is no 'US Occupation' section, only a two sentence mention in the 'Since 1915' blurb on that important period in Haiti's history? Or that the period from 1934 to 1957 isn't mentioned at all?

174.101.53.148 (talk) 15:34, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

history of haiti

This article starts with a summary of the history of Haiti. However there is a whole page devoted to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Haiti Is there a way to ensure consistency between both?

I suggest either deleting or severely shortening the history of haiti section of this page. --Heysan (talk) 19:04, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Motto ?

According to the French wiki page about Haiti, which cites reference (contrary to the English page), the motto is the same as France's : "Liberte, egalite, fraternite". The one cited here ("L'union fait la force") is actually the one from Belgium.. All of this sounds quite disturbing, isn't it ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.225.154.2 (talk) 20:30, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

"Poor structural design" is POV

It is point of view (and victim blaming) to say that Haiti's buildings collapsed owing to "poor structural design". Engineering is everywhere a matter of costs and trade-offs, and the racist treatment of Haiti for the past 200 years has meant that buildings have been constructed to lower standards than in the developed world.

Furthermore, Haiti has not had a major earthquake for the last 200 years, and it is not considered to be in an earthquake-prone area.

"Poor structural design" is not a POV. It is an objective statement of engineering reality. One can, of course, come up with racist explanations of why the buildings were poorly designed, but they don't change the physical reality. 192.12.184.2 (talk) 15:16, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Engineering reality isn't just physical reality. The engineer has to stay within financial constraints. In Haiti, these financial constraints are severe. In addition, although earthquakes can be violent in the Caribbean they are rare, and when resources are limited, this is another reason not to take earthquake over-engineering into account.

However it appears that the article has been changed.

"... with a majority of buildings collapsing due to poor structural design". Citation is needed here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.14.117 (talk) 01:48, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Tourism

According to CNN, Haiti is the poorist country in the western hemisphere. Why don't they do more to bring in tourist dollars? They should be one of the wealthiest countries in the region, if not the world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.100.52.87 (talk) 17:18, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Smells racist

Claiming "the first" "the only" slave revolution in more than one occcations smells racist. First of all there are many revolutions and rebellions in both medieval ages and later. Best example is Mameluk rule in Egypt almost all the rulers were rebel slaves till Ottoman era. Is it just because Circassians are European slaves of Semitic Arabs, rather than African slaves of European French? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.103.213.221 (talk) 20:22, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Dont forget Spartacus in there :)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacus Although his was unsuccessful —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.169.178.118 (talk) 11:47, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

"Mamluks were considered to be “true lords,” with social status above freeborn Muslims in places such as Egypt from the Ayyubid dynasty to the time of Muhammad Ali of Egypt." Eh? --71.93.182.252 (talk) 19:37, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Motto:

---

Incredibly, a secondary country's notion of a primary country's motto doesn't actually constitute history, law, or reality. If you look closely, the motto is actually emblazoned on the flag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.41.151.137 (talk) 12:04, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

typo-

The current President of the United States is Barack Obama, not Barrack Obama.

This is within the earthquake section:

Other support has been in effect lately though, as President Barrack H. Obama stated at a press conference that he, along with former Presidents George W. Bush and Bill Clinton, will send relief and support as soon as they can after devising the plan (January 14th, 2010).[citation needed]

The contribution of any nation to the world is important. The issue of whether or not a person can cite such a contribution based on race or other contrived restrictions is foolish. Whether or not the Republic of Haiti or the colonial predecessor, people who have lived in a place during a formative time in their lives should have that connection noted if for no other reason than it provides a context of connection for those in different places. Using race as a litmus test is a straw man used by racists to interject their ideology into a conversation. White guilt should be understood by those in denial of its existence. The political upheavals of the 20th century can be traced by the interlopers' actions that caused many nations to go to war. In most cases, the wars of the 20th century where caused by white guys. The third world and its resources were merely a means to an end for many.

As for President Obama liking black people, I should hope so, as the African-American ethnic group makes up a good portion of his country, not to mention his heritage. 72.128.126.26 (talk) 03:03, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Suggested Link Improvements

These are all good sources according to Wikipedia guidelines and would be an improvement over the current links.

Comments?

I heard you like muskipz —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.241.99 (talk) 18:06, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

im cool

Emergency earthquake aid

• International Committee of the Red Cross* International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies: Nonprofit Disaster Relief Organization
• Haiti Solar Energy specializes in helping residential and commercial owners supply their own energy needs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.8.167.107 (talk) 17:26, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
• List of charities in the US helping Haitian earthquake victims
• American Red Cross
• Disasters Emergency Committee, umbrella organisation for 13 UK aid agencies coordinating the appeal in the UK
• Google's Haiti Relief page
• Hunger and Rage – photo essay from Haiti by Jan Sochor

Contacting friends and relatives in Haiti

• International Committee of the Red Cross Family Links webpage

69.171.160.25 (talk) 23:38, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Automate archiving?

Does anyone object to me setting up automatic archiving for this page using MiszaBot? Unless otherwise agreed, I would set it to archive threads that have been inactive for 30 days and keep the last ten threads.--Oneiros (talk) 22:43, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

 Done--Oneiros (talk) 21:33, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

earthquake section

Do we really need an section on an earthquake for an article about an entire country? In five years it'll look ridiculous there and be taken out. Can we just realize now that it doesn't belong and stick it in the Calamities in Haiti page? .froth. (talk) 22:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. For the same reason it shouldn't be in the introduction. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:50, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

To often Wiki User jump on the band wagon and rush to include info that will not stand the test of time. FROTH is right this does not belong at least for now. It should be given its own page with a link to this one.

Also the is no facts yet. death tolls etc. property damage at this point is just a guess and that goes against what WIKI says it stands for.24.101.172.61 (talk) 00:12, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Why not remove the all the text under the earthquake section and replace it with this simple sentence: "More information is availabe at 2010 Haiti earthquake"? 98.247.230.41 (talk) 00:32, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Given the significance of this event, it seems fine to me to include best "guesses" as long as they are from reliable sources and the sources are cited. Somnlaut (talk) 19:19, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

If it's the worst earthquate in 200 years one might say it's an important part of the country's history

I agree: the occurrence and impact was significant, but perhaps it could be added to a created "geography" section, stating something to the effect of "not usually prone to earthquakes (see 2010 Haiti earthquake)".

Does the USA page talk of the many Hurricanes that have happened over the years or earthquakes??? Does the USA page include San Frans earthquake????

No because this events do not shape a country over the long haul. 24.101.172.61 (talk) 18:52, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

If you really wish to compare those pages, the impact of the earthquake is comparable to the impact of 9/11 on the states and possibly far more relevant. The USA page mentions 9/11 with a link, which would be a sensible approach here as well. Certainly we should not make the article about a country into an article about an earthquake. Somnlaut (talk) 19:19, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Not a fair comparison. One third of the population of this very poor country is affected. This single event is very likely to affect the country for ever. Maybe 100 years from now we can remove the earthquake reference —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.147.109 (talk) 06:49, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, you can include a link to it in the section belonging to the National Palace - the Haiti White House - noting it was destroyed in the earthquake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.207.220.37 (talk) 02:47, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

"Contribution to the World" Section

Totally ridiculous for an encyclopedia. It's desperate white guilt.

In view of what's been done to Haiti, I think white guilt is appropriate. "Neutrality" in the sense of basic fairness and decency is a moral category, and Haiti is regarded non-neutrally by the mainstream media. This is because reporters and talking heads of the mainstream media, superficially educated, have only a crustal knowledge of Haiti: they know it's desparately poor, but do not know that in the 1820s, Haitiennes were required to pay reparations to the French for "stealing" their property by liberating themselves from slavery, with the connivance of the United States and Britain. Nor do they know that Haiti's treasury was given to what is now Citibank in the 1910s because Haitiennes could not pay onerous and fraudulent debts to the USA, and that the United States Marines (according to Marine general Smedley Butler) were essentially privatized and used as debt collectors in the 1920s.

Wikipeda can redress this, but I won't hang by my thumbs, since what Jimbo Wales means by neutrality is that southern white yokels and convenience store clerks get to say what is real and what is not.\

Therefore a "contribution" section is quite appropriate.

Edward G. "spinoza1111" "monstrum horrendum" "hey if I'm banned how come I can post?" Nilges —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.202.32.221 (talk) 15:00, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Can I go ahead and write a "Contribution to the World" section for the US or UK? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.181.80.44 (talk) 18:05, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Of course you may add a "Contribution to the World" section for either the United States and or the United Kingdom. That is the idea behind the Wikipedia project. But I am going to guess the question of your actual ability to do so is what is really being asked here. No. No, *you* probably can't, but feel free to give it a try. Maybe you can try to solicit some help from your comrades at Stormfront? Enough monkeys at enough keyboards might just be able come up with something worthwhile. --71.93.182.252 (talk) 19:32, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that to write good things about US and UK people have to be a white supremacist? The UK and US have contributed a damn lot to the world. Are you calling us monkeys because we say so? In future please refrain for such stupid remarks. Many many people are sick to the teeth of every white man who likes the UK or US being accused of such far-right rasicm. They are false accusations and very, very offensive. We dont compare Nelson Mandella of supporting the KKK...so dont compare ALL whites of supporting stormfront...because we dont.DarkMithras —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.169.178.118 (talk) 11:37, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Nah, just the ones who use phrases like "It's desperate white guilt." or "Bullshit" when referring to there being a section suggesting that a Black nation may have had positive contributions to the world. Not to mention that the section may have been added and worked on by anyone of any nation or ethnicity. But I do seem to have struck a nerve, yes? AWESOME. --71.93.182.252 (talk) 17:04, 15 January 2010 (UTC)--71.93.182.252 (talk) 17:02, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Remove Opinions- Please delete the "Obama cares about black people" remark. True or not, it's not factual it's an opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.179.97.55 (talk) 22:57, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Agree, it's pushing the limits of what is encyclopedic. And to cite Point du Sable and Audubon is misleading; they lived on the island when it was the French colony of Saint-Domingue, not when it was the independent Republic of Haiti. Funnyhat (talk) 23:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

• Two days ago, before the earthquake, I had already initiated a discussion of this topic (without the nasty overtones of this section)[3] but somewhere in all the recent editing of this page the entire thread was removed. The title of that section is obviously POV and needs to be changed, I've already taken a stab at making the actual content more neutral. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:10, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

• Yes of course I'm a racist and a terrible person for thinking that a "Contribution to the World" section is unencyclopediatic (or whatever adjectival form is appropriate).

Signed, the Creator of this section.

"Contribution to the World" is too prideful and nationalistic to be considered neutral. The very act of listing "contributions to the world" is about fawning positive appraisal rather than objective treatment of facts. In addition, the things listed are hardly of a noteworthy quality to be considered "world contributions". The contributions of the Haitian Diaspora to African countries is too limited to be considered a "world" contribution. Donating money to Bolivar or Point du Sable (one man) joining the American Revolution is just not something of a "world contribution" scale. Even the Bolivar article doesn't have such a glorifying tone; shouldn't he be the one getting credit for "world contributions?" This whole section is ridiculous. Don't use the democratic nature of Wikipedia to further your nationalistic propaganda. Notice for professional articles regarding a certain country, they use language like "Scientific and Technological Achievements of X". They don't blatantly try to establish ethnocentric "credit" for things that we have. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.222.50.109 (talk) 20:09, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

If the concern is that the "Contribution to the World" section is not fair or neutral than please voice your concerns in a respectful and professional way please leave pejorative and derogatory language out. Unless you enjoy the irony and hypocrisy. With those concerns aside, the name of the "Contribution to the World" section is inappropriate simple because the section deals with Haitian history and thus the content belongs in the History section. I will make an effort to rework this material into the history section, help would be appreciated.--OMCV (talk) 20:44, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

The article itself ought to be neutral and balanced. My tone towards people who try to insert their biases into Wikipedia, then play the race card when people object isn't neutral. I don't understand how this is ironic or hypocritical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.222.50.109 (talk) 21:18, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

"Bullshit" will never be a neutral language. Requesting neutral language with non-neutral language is ironic and/or an act of hypocrisy.--OMCV (talk) 22:13, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I've moved all the content to the history section. I have done next to nothing to insure it reads well I've just placed content in appropriate locations. Feel free to improve upon what I have done.--OMCV (talk) 21:02, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I think the inappropriateness of "contribution to the world" extends beyond just "it is in the wrong section." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.222.50.109 (talk) 21:20, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

If you have a complaint with specific content then normally I would suggest that you should edit that content directly. Since the page is currently protected to prevent vandalism I suggest you identify the specific text that concerns you, then offer a suggested change. I would be more than happy to enter it for you.--OMCV (talk) 22:13, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

the biggest disater of this millenium An earth-quake

Lets help the earth quake victims of Haiti. because on one can understand its value better than us as we suffered the same in kutchch india . so all friends n reader plz get ready for charity of victims. over one lacks people were dies by this quake —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.198.164.189 (talk) 20:05, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I for one, am completely furious over the lacks that people were dies by this quake as well. We are all awaiting the charity of the victims.--Evilbred (talk) 18:46, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Black and white as ethnic groups?

--Nils Jansen (talk) 14:12, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

--HONESTLY, I DON'T SEE HOW STATISTICS SHOW THAT 95% OF HAITIANS ARE BLACK. THAT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE. MAYBE 60-70%, MAYBE 20%-25% ARE MIXED AND 5-10% ARE WHITE (INCLUDING THE SYRIANS). WHERE DO THESE PEOPLE GET THEIR STATISTICS REALLY? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.178.129 (talk) 19:13, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Misinfornation about the Taíno word "bohío"

This was a term for a type of dwelling. It did NOT mean "rich villages" and it WAS NOT a name for a region of the island of Kiskeya/Hispaniola. Hurmata (talk) 01:44, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Here's a little advice, don't say the word! 69.138.69.0 (talk) 23:17, 17 January 2010 (UTC) Jazzy Fay I think people around here should stop worrying about themselves and help Haiti! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.215.48.5 (talk) 19:20, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

citation needed ( Comte d'Estaing in savanah)

a citation was found at: The Role of the Haitian Volunteers at Savannah in 1779: An Attempt at an Objective View George P. Clark Phylon (1960-), Vol. 41, No. 4 (4th Qtr., 1980), pp. 356-366 (article consists of 11 pages) Published by: Clark Atlanta University Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/274860 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yairsuari (talk • contribs) 08:55, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Comment on

Economy

Quotation from the Economy section ... "Poverty has forced at least 225,000 children in Haiti's cities into slavery, working as unpaid household servants.[64]"

WOW! There are 225,000 households in Haiti with domestic servants? If there are four people per household that's over 10% of all the households in the entire country! WHODATHUNK?

Simple math aside, this is an egregious use of an inflammatory word, "slavery", which does not accurately describe the social phenomenon being reported.

It is=indeed=the word used by a "least common denominator" newspaper in their sensational reporting (citation "[64]" is a USAToday article, see following excerpt). IMHO, newspaper reporters write articles to sell newspapers, not to feed wikipedia, so I don't even consider it an appropriate source of information or an appropriate citation, much less an appropriate source of terminology. The actual source cited by USAToday in the (the lacking-a-by-line) article for the "slavery" information was a report allegedly prepared by some outfit called the "Pan American Development Foundation". That source (which would be at least slightly more "primary") was apparently unread by our contributor since it is not cited on the Haiti page at all.

the following is a cut-and-paste excerpt from the cited [64] USAToday article ... "Most are sent by parents who cannot afford to care for them to families just slightly better off. Researchers found 11% of families that have a restavek (patois for "lives with", explanation added) have sent their own children into domestic servitude elsewhere.

Despite growing attention to the problem, researchers said their sources were unaware of any prosecutions of cases involving trafficking children or using them as unpaid servants in this deeply poor nation of more than 9 million people.

Glenn Smucker, one of the report's authors and a cultural anthropologist known for extensive work on Haiti, said he believes the number of restavek children is increasing proportionally with the population of Port-au-Prince as more migrants flee rural poverty to live in the capital.

The researchers surveyed more than 1,400 random households in five Haitian urban areas in late 2007 and early 2008, with funding help from the U.S. Agency for International Development.

The most widely used previous number for restaveks came from a 2002 UNICEF survey, which estimated there were 172,000.

The new report used a broader counting system to include children related to household owners but still living in servitude, such as nieces or cousins, and as well as "boarders" living temporarily with another family but are still forced to provide labor." end of excerpt from the cited [64] USAToday article -- italics were all added for clarity.

Now, having read the foregoing, surprisingly accurate, description of VOLUNTARY DOMESTIC SERVITUDE (regardless of whether it is prompted by economics, the weather, or parental authority), it is clearly inappropriate to refer to the means by which these children perform HONEST work to earn their food, clothing, and shelter as SLAVERY. Slavery is real, slavery is invidious, slavery is wrong. Nonetheless, THIS AIN'T SLAVERY.

You might be emotionally biased against "unpaid" labor, you might resent your parents for making you do chores, and you might hate the idea of honest domestic service or even loathe the hoary-old Western cultural practice of fostering children, so, since these kids clearly aren't paid IN MONETARY TERMS, you might find their lot repulsive. You would, however, be wrong--since they are paid IN KIND--with food, clothing, and shelter. The fact that this is an impoverished country--where even the "exploiters" of these kids don't have a pot into which they might pass their urine--you shouldn't be surprised that cash is hard to come by.

Moreover, you should exercise your grey matter before wringing your hands. Lose the "slavery" term and lose the citation to the arch-trivial USAToday article. The "more primary" source perhaps needs to be researched BUT it STILL won't support use of the term "slavery" to describe this particular practice.

Second-guessing how Haitian parents rear their children will get you in a heap of trouble--not with me, I could care less--but with Haitians, for certain. You are exercising cultural imperialism in its most despicable form: unconscious racial arrogance.

Use of such misnomers in any wikipedia article is bad, in this case it's intellectually dishonest, racially inflammatory, and preternaturally vile.Westernesse (talk) 22:05, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

The situation of these children likely runs the gamut from honest labor to something indistinguishable from your definition of slavery. Do you have a suggestion for better language that doesn't make these children sound like unionized umpa lumpas? A suggestion for the future, try to keep your posts shorter and more coherent, especially when you are contending a single word.--OMCV (talk) 03:25, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Demographics section

It's quite amazing that the total population of the country is not listed anywhere! (except the aproximation from the poor-legibility graph) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.147.109 (talk) 06:10, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

This is in fact not true. Observe the graph at the beginning of the article, on the right, 10 facts from the bottom, under the heading "Population", where is found the estimated 2009 population, set at 10,033,000. Hopefully even those who can't read can follow these instructions!

Article says that Haiti has the highest fertility rate in the western world but if you click the link you find Guatemala is #41 while Haiti is #51. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Northeaster (talk • contribs) 17:05, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The World Factbook from CIA for 2009 lists Haiti as #50 in the world (3.81 babies per woman), Guatemala -#58 (3.47). The first 49 countries are in Africa and Asia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.88.66.142 (talk) 03:27, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I think that the whole thing happening in Haiti is quite sad, actually. I'm watching a show about the tradigy as I type this. There was a 2 month old baby found under ruins...ALIVE! It's amazing how strong these Haitian people are. I really hope that the future is brighter for them. They'll need the luck and love! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.138.69.0 (talk) 22:18, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Did anyone else check this page after watching the video of Pat Roberston?

Yes and no. I read about Pat's comment. I then read an op ed piece that said Pat and his like were threatened by Haiti slaves' historic defeat of Napoleon. I came here to learn more about the successful rebellion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.204.102.141 (talk) 04:17, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Using the awesome power of the internet, i ask you to tell me where pat roberston got the idea that Haitians made a pact with the devil to drive the french out.

video can be found here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5TE99sAbwM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.116.73.219 (talk) 14:48, 14 January 2010 (UTC) .. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.28.243 (talk) 15:46, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank goodness his comments have not been posted here!! Josué L. Barbosa (talk) 01:44, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

... Pat Robertson got the idea because it's either a fact or a common myth/belief in Haiti. My friend volunteered there and came back with stories about Voodoo and how the country made a pact with the devil to escape french colonialism. I imagine with all the volunteer work Pat Robertson does in Haiti, he knew this already.

From http://www.americandaily.com/article/95 (2004)

It is a matter of well-documented historical fact that the nation of Haiti was dedicated to Satan 200 years ago. On August 14, 1791, a group of houngans (voodoo priests), led by a former slave houngan named Boukman, made a pact with the Devil at a place called Bois-Caiman. All present vowed to exterminate all of the white Frenchmen on the island. They sacrificed a black pig in a voodoo ritual at which hundreds of slaves drank the pig’s blood. In this ritual, Boukman asked Satan for his help in liberating Haiti from the French. In exchange, the voodoo priests offered to give the country to Satan for 200 years and swore to serve him. On January 1, 1804, the nation of Haiti was born and thus began a new demonic tyranny.

See also wikipedia's article on Dutty_Boukman —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.227.246.8 (talk) 14:46, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

A pact with the devil can no more be a matter of well documented historical fact than a pact with the easter bunny can be. You apparently have no reasonable idea what a "fact" is or what "well-documented" means. 1st I would like to know the process that any priest gets the power to speak for an entire population. Pat Robertson does not speak for the USA just like Osama does not speak for Saudi. Friggen Catholics hardly even listen to the Pope. Pat Robertson sure does not speak for me and I am a US citizen.

Also are you saying that these priests had their proceedings notarized by a dis-interested 3rd party? Without such collaborating evidence all you have is worthless hearsay - I understand you have to pretend hearsay is significant because your entire religion is founded on hearsay, but in FACT hearsay is worthless fodder for the simple mind.--Riluve (talk) 05:32, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Fact or not, it is believed by most Haitians. That makes it as much fact as anything we know about most historical events. Pilgrims? Columbus? Alexander the Great? Prove any of them existed. We cannot, it is only by written and oral histories that we "know" they exist. The Haitians can say the same. In 2004 there were great celebrations that the 200 year pact ended. For the Haitians the pact is part of there history and should be allowed to be told. As for the cause of the earthquake, sorry Pat, but you can not sustantiate that claim. Spahi (talk) 12:23, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Please get these facts into this historiy of Haiti: This week, amid the reports of the tragedy and the heroic response of everyday people around the world, I was stunned and saddened by the disgraceful assertion by the Rev. Pat Robertson that Haiti's suffering was due to a pact it had made with the devil. It struck me that most of us really have no idea why Haiti is so poor. Its people did indeed make a pact long ago...but it was not with the devil.

In 1804, Haiti became the first black nation to gain independence from slavery.But its independence came at a rare price. After a bloody revolution, the country was forced to pay 150 million francs (the equivalent of $21 billion) to the French as a condition of their independence. On threat of a military invasion, the fledgling nation was compelled to secure high-interest loans, creating a vicious cycle of borrowing from French banks to pay the French government. Haiti did not complete these payments until 1947.- By Derrick Ashong Original Content | January 15, 2010 see: http://www.oprah.com/world/Earthquake-in-Haiti/2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.101.143.142 (talk) 17:27, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Editprotected: Picture

{{editsemiprotected}}

File:PalacioNacional.jpg

Please add the iconic view of the earthquake, the frontal ground level view of the collapsed national palace, as the illustration for the 2010 earthquake section.

File:PalacioNacional.jpg

[[File:PalacioNacional.jpg|thumb|The National Palace, after the 12 January 2010 earthquake]]

76.66.192.206 (talk) 07:16, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Added. Rami R 10:04, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

get your facts right

According to the CIA factbook the population estimate in july 2009 was :9,035,536. (This should be adjusted with the 200,000 casualties). And the mulatto population is 10% and not the 5 % the government gives. This is just their policy, because theirs constitution says: "no white man should come here to own property or wealth" 192.87.123.159 (talk) 11:25, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

HISTORY SECTION AND DEMOGRPHICS PROBLEMS

THIS IS IN THE HISTORY SECTION, BUT IS NOT ADDRESSED IN THE DEMOGRAPHICS SECTION. IN HISTORY IT SAYS: Mixed race Haitians make up about 15–20% of the population of Haiti. BUT IN DEMOGRAPHICS IT SAYS: 90-95% are of predominantely African decent.

THIS NEEDS TO BE CLARIFIED IN BOTH SECTIONS. WHAT IS GOING ON? WHAT ARE THE REAL CURRENT, ACCEPTED DEMOGRAPHIC CATAGORIES BEING USED? AND THEN, WHAT ARE THE ACCURATE NUMBERS?

Looks like your caps lock was on. Or are you yelling? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.147.109 (talk) 06:50, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Mixed race Haitians make up about 15–20% of the population of Haiti. They live mostly in the wealthier suburbs of the capital like Petionville or Kenscoff. Also they originate from and live in the Southwestern regions of Haiti such as: Jacmel, Les Cayes, Cavaillon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.63.248 (talk) 17:06, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Whoever stated that Haiti has the highest fertility rate in the Western Hemisphere is wrong, and their citation leads you to a "letters to the editor" section of the New York Times. Guatemala has a higher fertility rate than Haiti, according to the United Nations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikitruthia (talk • contribs) 18:28, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

The World Factbook from CIA for 2009 lists Haiti as #50 in the world (3.81 babies per woman), Guatemala -#58 (3.47). The first 49 countries are in Africa and Asia. This is the latest currently available estimate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.88.59.244 (talk) 04:47, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Stating that "The Spaniards exploited the island for its gold..." is pejorative. Better to say that "The Spaniards compelled some of the native population to help mine gold in Haiti which was shipped to Spain." --Thinrim (talk) 00:07, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

haitian religious statistics

a great deal more in-depth discussion of the real state of religious affairs in haiti is available at http://www.adherents.com/adhloc/Wh_123.html, which tends to indicate the predominant religion is either vodoun or a syncretistic vodoun-catholicism. the '50% catholic' statistic in the wiki article is, in any case, misleading at best, and blatantly wrong at worst. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.25.99.177 (talk) 02:53, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Yea, somehow a report that for just the ones around 1998 comes out to 191.72% roughly, including 80% as catholic and 90% as vodoun doesn't inspire me to desire a change at all. (especially coupled with the 20% protestant number and 57% total for Christianity). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.119.150.24 (talk) 07:34, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

POV tag

There does not seem to be a discussion on the talk regarding the specific parts of the article that are POV. I realize that there is some disagreement over the facts, but an alternative reliable source has not been suggestioned. Could someone clarify for me? Thanks, —mattisse (Talk) 21:18, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I've just messaged the editor that placed the tag "drive-by" style. Dawnseeker2000 21:23, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

It's because there was original research there about black nations not being as good as other nations, but I can't find it there anymore. FakeAvJs-A (talk) 21:28, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

So it sounds like the tag can be removed then, if what you objected to is no longer there. (I think that if anyone added statements about black nations not being as good as other nations, it would immediately be removed.) Regards, —mattisse (Talk) 21:32, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Correction

"Haiti is poorest country in the Western Hemisphere" needs a 'The' inserted and also citation... I cannot edit here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.180.246 (talk) 16:21, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

slight political unrest

I ran across this article about the fact that many Haitians are unhappy with the government and would like the US to lead the recovery effort, if not the take over the country entirely. Where should this go? Spartan S58 (talk) 06:49, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Plurifom - clarification needed

Hi all

The term Pluriform is used in the article but the definition of this is unclear.

The word is simply made up of pluri, meaning multi, and form.

The context in which these "multiple forms" is used is not clear; whether they refer to the parties, the organisation of the government etc.

Chaosdruid (talk) 21:42, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Would someone correct these inaccuracies?

1. The article claims that Haitians liberated themselves from slavery in a successful slave revolution. However, it is obvious from the timeline of the events that Haitian slaves did not win the freedom by a successful revolt. They were first freed by a decree of their colonial power. Their later successful struggle against Napoleonic troops was that of the free people (some of them former slaves) against being turned into slaves. At the very least, the bizarre claim of the one and only successful slave revolution in the world history has to be removed.
2. The picture of Poles fighting the Haitians is followed by a misleading legend, which contradicts the very source that it cites. The source claims that the story about Polish sympathy to the rebels is a myth, and that the very few Poles that apparently sided with the rebels might have done so only to save their own lives. The source claims that there was no special relationship between Haitian rebels and Poles: any non-French whites were treated the same by the rebels, that is, the French prisoners were tortured and killed, while the non-French ones were killed without torture.

1. There was a slave revolt (Haitian Revolution). This slave revolt forced the French commissioners Sonthonax and Polverel to abolished slavery in the colony. Six months latter this abolition was endorsed by the National Convention and extended it to all the French colonies. In this process individuals went from being slaves to free men. This is the definition of a successful slave revolt. I would be interested in hearing another example of a successful slave revolt from the modern or past eras. Honestly history trivia isn't my strong point and I'm interested. Personally I don't care for statements involving "only", "most", "least", or other maximal adjectives, but in this case it might fit. If you meant to say that Haiti did not win their colonial "independence" directly through a slave revolt you are correct. None the less, the revolt and colonial independence are connected. The example set by Haiti of a successful slave revolt is said to have terrified slave owners in the US. It is said that this soured US's policy towards Haiti. At the same time Haiti was revered among former slaves in other French colonies for playing a role in freedom. Perhaps this can be explained and sourced better in the article. That is a job for a better historian than me.

The Haitian slaves were successful in scaring their masters into granting them freedom, which was also in line with the popular revolutionary ideology of many French at the time. Similarly, armed slave resistance was also instrumental in gaining them freedom in other countries. For example, the Baptist War forced the British to grant freedom to their slaves. Moreover, the success of the Haitian slaves was in no small part due to the destruction of the old French government structures and the engulfment of France by internal and external conflicts. Slaves have been successfully liberating themselves in similar situations (destruction of the slave-holders' government structure) from ancient times. For example, during barbarian conquest of Rome slaves have been successfully revolting against their weakened Roman masters. It is important to note that the achievement of freedom is a great deed regardless of whether anyone else has done it before or after, so the respect for the Haitian freedom fighter should not be diminished by recognition of the similar acts of others.

First I think your historic contextualization of the revolt is very accurate. But it still seems Haiti had the only successful revolt. From what I've read (on wikipedia) the Baptist War was suppressed easily and freedom was granted after, out of pity, which is not the same. I'm also skeptical of ancient slave revolts argument. It seems the contexts where very different, most significantly the disparity in technologies between master and slave generally shrink as we move backwards in time.--OMCV (talk) 05:40, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

2. About 20% of the Poles sent to Haiti that didn't die of yellow fever became Haitian citizens. Considering that the US revolution is said to have been supported by only a 1/3 of the pre-US Colonial population and enacted by an even smaller fraction then the attrition of 20% seems significant. Again its likely that this section could be worded better and citing a web blog about a book is pathetic. Blogs are no where near a WP:RS for historic facts or analysis.--OMCV (talk) 03:09, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

According to the referenced source (which is a book review and may not be very authoritative) of 5200 Poles that came to fight were "only 120 to 150 Poles ever going over to the Haitian cause, and those are more likely to have do so to save their own lives than as a matter of principle". There are no data that any of the >4000 perished Poles (who died both from the disease and the hostilities) were rebel sympathizers. There is also no mentioning that even a single Pole joined the rebels out of sympathy to their cause rather than to save his own live. The source also specifically states that the relationships between Poles and the rebels were typical of the relationships between the rebels and many of the other non-French whites. Specific mentioning of Poles does not seem fair to the others, and may leave a misleading impression on the reader.
On a side note, you are comparing the pre-hostilities American sympathies to post-hostilities Polish loyalties. One may expect that the revolutionary cause was supported by a higher fraction of the colonists after the Revolution, when many of those opposed to it have perished or emigrated or switched loyalties. Similarly, a relatively high fraction of those who joined the rebels among the Poles that remained in Haiti after the war would be natural: such individuals were less likely to be killed by the victors.
Another side note: the web site that is used as a reference is not a typical blog. It is a web site of a university professor who teaches on the related subjects. That site also has tons of valuable information, including countless citations from the primary sources. There are many interesting pieces about the French politicians, their motifs and their relationships with locals and rebel leaders. This is very relevant to who and why set the slaves free.
Once again and most importantly, there are no listed scholarly sources attesting to even a single Pole becoming sympathetic to the rebel cause, while the only listed source casts a doubt on this possibility. The unsubstantiated statements should be either substantiated by adequate sources or removed. I truly hope that adherence to this simple rule will not be taken as an offense on the Polish national pride. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.88.66.142 (talk) 02:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok good points, especially the pre-post event comparison issues. I'm still rather surprised that 20% of the surviving Poles remained in Haiti. Based on the available sources it seems ridiculous to comment on the motivations of any Poles that fought the French and where that motivation lies on Maslow's moral pyramid. An alternate explanation would be that they just wanted to kill some French similar in the way some Irish plotted with the Nazis during WWII in an effort to kill some English. It seems the sympathetic Poles are a myth similar to Disney's version of John Rolfe or Avatar (2009 film) Jake Sully. I'll make any reasonable edit suggestions. I stand by my comment regarding blogs, even reputable blogs are still blogs. Blogs are fine for sourcing opinions of their authors but blogs are not yet considered authoritative and rigorous academic works. The quality of wikipedia is based largely on the quality of our sources, if Bob Corbett cites good references than we would do well to read those references and incorporate them into our articles. If Bob Corbett publishes a book or in reputable journals we would do well to cite him. I don't think citing the blog of Bob Corbett is a good practice.--OMCV (talk) 05:40, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I have recently watched some documentary (can't remember title) where Haitans claimed that there was a significant number of Poles who remained in Haiti after revolution. They also said that there are still people in Haiti having Polish or Polish-like surnames. Polish Wikipedia says that number of Poles who stayed there was about 400, also gives names of villages (Cazale, La Valee de Jackmel, Fond des Blancs, Port Salut i St. Jean du Sud) where descendants of those live. They give this source: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nygus/sets/72157620721130385/ . I have read in one of Polish magazines (Angora) that until 1974 Polish were automatically granted Haiti citizenship if they applied for it, as a kind of appreciation for help given to the revolutionists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.27.82.97 (talk) 11:08, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Literacy Rate

The comment that Haiti's literacy rate "is the lowest in the region" was marked as "disputed". However, according to the List of countries by literacy rate, the country has the lowest in the Western Hemisphere, as shown both on the list as well as the world map indicating literacy by country. I recommend using the list as a reference, changing the sentence to read something akin to: "Haiti's literacy rate of 54.8% is the lowest among countries in the Western Hemisphere." Robert The Rebuilder (talk) 20:11, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Earthquake in the lead

I think there should be a mention of the earthquake in the lead. I don't know a great deal about Haiti's history but I imagine 100 years from now, this is going to be considered one of the greatest tragedies and most significant events in the nations history. I don't see any discussion about this here so I'm just going to be WP:BOLD and add it. If somebody disagrees and removes it, we can discuss that here. DegenFarang (talk) 12:42, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

While I personally don't disagree with your thinking that the Port-au-Prince earthquake is going to be one of the most significant events in Haiti's history, it is still a current news event, and we still know so little about the number of deaths, scope of damage, capacity of international response or internal forces to rebuild the city etc. that anything about the earthquake put in the lead is likely to undergo rapid change over the next few days & weeks. Along with rapid text change will come a temptation for expansion and addition to your succinct and well crafted paragraph, which could result in the reference to the earthquake overshadowing the rest of the lead. As devastating as this earthquake is, it is not the defining element of Haiti, the Haitian people, or Haitian society. I don't propose deleting this paragraph for the time being, but I think we need to be vigilant that the lead doesn't become the main location for a discussion of this week's earthquake. Haiti is a lot more than one tragic event, as horrific as it is. Ultimately the consensus may be to leave in a reference to the earthquake in the lead, similar to the reference to the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima or the earthquake/tsunami in Aceh, Indonesia both of which events are in the lead in those articles.Corlyon (talk) 17:46, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I think anything in the lead needs to be one or two lines at most and not dominate the lead. Just a quick general summary, as if we were writing it 20 years from now. The New York Times reported 7,000 already buried and 'thousands more' dead bodies lying all over the capital. On top of that an untold number missing. Fairly safe to say the death toll will easily surpass 10,000. DegenFarang (talk) 22:41, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I disagree about the section in the lead paragraph (not to understate the future impact) but we're talking about the country article here. The earthquake can well be mentioned e.g. in a geography section lower. The Indonesia article doesn't mention the tsunami incident of 2004 either. --MoRsE (talk) 21:03, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Ordinarily I would agree with you that an earthquake wouldn't ordinarily take the lead in country article. If Vancouver was destroyed by an earthquake I wouldn't expect the Canada article to feature this in the lead. However, it does appear as if this earthquake is an event of national significance in Haiti, as it affects the largest city, which is the capital, and from news accounts I have read has affected the lives of 1/3 of the country's population. Sort of like a catastrophic event hitting all of British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan. That might well make the lead in the Canada article. Corlyon (talk) 22:10, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with user MoRsE. The 2010 Haiti Earthquake does not define the nation of Haiti, it belongs were it is describing events from a historical perspective, not in a summary of the nation itself. This style in my opinion cheapens wikipedia articles and serves to bolster critics' opinions of wikipedia as a running editorial rather than a source of knowledge.--Pstorvik (talk) 17:09, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

While an earthquake is certainly an important event, one wouldn't put mention of riots or rampant diseases in the lead, so why earthquakes? Objectively speaking, it is a current event, a news item, not a general explanation of the subject, in this case, Haiti. As such, any such mention should be relegated to a time line, current events, news, or other such section. Furthermore, in this particular instance, the current lead's description of the quake states, "[Haiti] was devastated. Approximately two hundred thousand people were killed, although it will take time to determine the exact number of dead; . . . along with countless homes . . .", all of which is overly emotional and lacking in specifics, and, as such, not worthy of an encyclopedic entry. Wikipedia is not a blog. Someone needs to move and fix the earthquake paragraph, per the aforementioned. Skaizun (talk) 18:51, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

This earthquake has had and will continue to have a profound effect on Haiti. Estimates seem to be 200,000 dead (+2% of Haiti's 9,000,000 people) and 2,000,000 homeless. In scale, it is as if London and southeast England were hit by a catastrophe that killed 1,000,000 and put 10,000,000 in the streets, destroying much of the buildings in the capital of the UK and a significant amount of infrastructure from Southampton to Norwich. I would think that the UK article (or at least the 'England' article) lead just might mention that fact. Similarly, if a similar catastrophe hit New York/Philadelphia/Washington and killed 5,000,000 and put 30,000,000 people in the northeastern US out of their houses, I would suspect that the article on the US would mention this as well. Events of such magnitude--whether they are earthquakes or other natural or unnatural disasters--do have the capacity to affect the course of a nation's or a city's history. Unlike most earthquakes, I am of the view that this one in Haiti, now, is such a one. The articles on Rwanda, Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Ireland, Iceland, San Francisco, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Valdivia, Dresden & Volgograd all include references to some great catastrophic occurrence in their recent (or in the case of Ireland 19th c.) past. I think a reference to the earthquake --concise and limited--is warranted in the lead.Corlyon (talk) 01:57, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

150,000+ now confirmed dead. The impact this has had on the nation of Haiti and will continue to have for decades is unlike anything that has occurred to another nation in our lifetimes. If the USA were rocked with an earthquake that leveled the White House, Pentagon, Congress, Hospitals, Schools and countless homes, killing millions of people and putting another nation in control of the government - this would be in the lead. I am changing the lead back and I think it should not be reverted until consensus is reached here. DegenFarang (talk) 10:35, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

keep it in the lead: although it doesn't need to have too much detail, the lead should reflect the later content of the article in this regard, in that there is a sub-section about the earthquake and its impact within the article. Regards, Lynbarn (talk) 11:36, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

"Links": link to the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake_in_Haiti should be included Geeky Freak (talk) 17:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Religious Section

"Haiti is a largely Christian country, with Roman Catholicism professed by 80% of Haitians. Protestants make up about 16% of the population. Haitian Vodou, a New World Afro-diasporic faith unique to the country, is practiced by up to two-thirds of the population.[1][122] Religious practice often spans Haiti and its diaspora as those who have migrated interact through religion with family in Haiti.[123]"

After reading the above paragraph, I saw a contradiction in it's logic. 80% Romain Catholic + 16% Protestants + 60% Practice Haitian Vodou (Prohibited Christian Doctrine) = 156% Total

Who is doing the math? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.3.165 (talk) 21:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Adding up to more than one hundred percent is only a problem if the categories are mutually exclusive, and in this case they're not. In Haiti one might both profess Roman Catholicism and practice Vodou. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.34.164.226 (talk) 00:02, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Poverty

The article continuously mentions that Haiti is the "poorest in the Western Hemisphere." This issue has to be seriously addressed because the whole world (literally) is being misled as to what technically is also included in the Western hemisphere, which includes countries in Africa like Sierra Leone or Mauritania that are poorer than Haiti. It must be revised to "the poorest in the Americas" because that is factually accurate. This whole notion of Haiti being the poorest in the Western Hemisphere is simply not true! Let's get Wikipedia to be the first page on the internet that actually gets this fact right! Mbhskid520 (talk) 09:01, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. That bit at the top (third paragraph) irritates me as well, since by several calculations (such as the GDP PPP per capita) there are several nation-states that could be considered poorer in the Western Hemisphere, such as Togo and possibly Western Sahara. It should say "poorest in America" or something like that. The introduction to an article should be only the best. Anyone else? --- W5WMW (talk) 01:50, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Yup, it's wrong. Maybe in the Americas but not the entire Western hemisphere. Elockid ^(Talk·_Contribs) 02:19, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Population of Haiti

The Haitian government reported 230 thousand people died. I think we should correct the

Population: 9 035 536

field to

Population: 8 805 536

--84.52.134.156 (talk) 19:16, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Better if we wait for the source to update. Elockid ^(Talk·_Contribs) 20:05, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I disagree, if we reference both the original source and the source of the death figure I think anyone can do the maths themselves. We can even refer to a source that describes the mechanics of subtraction if necessary 83.254.192.84 (talk) 07:32, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

NPOV about Aristide

I seriously believe the section about Jean-Bertrand Aristide in this article does not fulfill the NPOV criterion. Javirl (talk) 21:31, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

The main thing to remember about Aristide is that he was elected originally by a mass movement from the bottom 90% of Haiti's population. This threatened the Haitian wealthy, the top 1% of Haiti that control over 90% of its wealth. BEcause of this disparity, it should be noted that virtually all the media outlets in Haiti are owned by this elite, who are uniformly anti-Aristide. Their views to the the AP and Reuters, who go to the international press. Thus, there results in a wide anti-Aristide bias, including allegations of Haiti becoming a "narco state" under Aristide. But there is no outside evidence to back this up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.245.153.208 (talk) 14:50, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Something may be missing...

I have just read over the page and found that the role the U.S. had in Haiti is largely ignored. The U.S., as it would turn out, has had a very large role in the development of the country (or more accurately, in the impediment of its development). At the very least it should be noted how:

• The U.S., fearing a slave revolt, did not recognize the country until 1862

or

• how the U.S. controlled IMF, IDB and other banking institutions gave loans with certain conditions on how Haiti should be run, which would impair the country's ability to stand on its own two feet

or possibly,

• How some may view the Duvalier dynasty (which was backed by the U.S.) as being an impediment to Haiti. This is not true. This claim is not found anywhere. Or, maybe I'm not looking hard enough. Please provide a reference to this statement if you're going to make one as such.

This does not have to be presented as being opinionated; just write the facts and let them speak for themselves.

If we're going to write an article on Haiti, let's at least try to improve on it. 96.250.154.239 (talk) 00:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, I have found that the article states the Mr. "Papa Doc" Duvalier "advanced the interests of Haitian blacks." I have made further investigation into the claim, and I can say confidently that it is DEAD WRONG. Many of the articles I read ("Encyclopedia Brittanica" for one) condemn "Papa Doc". Though, according to one article, he did create a "black elite" (through corrupt tactics) and promised to help Haitian blacks (or Haitian Africans) during his campaign, there was no document that stated that he actually helped the majority of Haitian blacks (which the statement implies). In short, the statement is horribly flawed and I DEMAND that the statement be revised immediately to prevent inevitable confusion. 96.250.157.247 (talk) 16:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

You're probably correct, but shouting and making demands isn't the best way to get things done. You can help by contributing reliable sources for the claims, and remaining civil. Greenman (talk) 17:08, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

You do have a point, and in retrospect, I could have worded my request a little more tactfully; Having read such an outrageous lie irritated me to a point where it shouldn't have.

However, I'm confident the facts I stated above (regardless of how I expressed them) are true and that I think my suggestions should be given consideration. 96.250.152.58 (talk) 03:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

You find a lot of evidence here: Amnesty International - Haiti all reports since 1991... Nysos

Thank you, Nysos. I look forward to reading from it in future. 96.246.244.138 (talk) 22:43, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

It has been over two months since I made my request for this change, and the editors apparently have not even discussed it.

Basically, my patience with the editors of the article is wearing thin.

I would make the change myself, but the article is locked. Thus, I ask that perhaps I could be given the chance to discuss the change with the editors. I would be more than happy to. 96.250.147.74 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

NPOV about US Occupation

"The US administration dismantled the constitutional system, reinstituted virtual slavery for building roads, and established the National Guards that ran the country by violence and terror after the Marines left." sounds a bit pov. For instance, what is "virtual slavery." The next sentence gives clear facts and figures about how many roads and bridges were built, but this seems more opinionated. --67.86.20.0 (talk) 14:01, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Devil worship caused earthquake?

Please unlock the page so I can add a section on how demon worship caused the earthquake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.130.71.153 (talk) 01:53, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Where is the basis on this from? Looks to be original research/personal belief. Elockid ^(Talk·_Contribs) 22:31, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

At least he is forthright about his intent to vandalize--Evilbred (talk) 13:30, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

the thought that devil worship caused the earthquake is completely biased. this request should be ignored because it may cause a stir of controversy regarding whether devil worship caused the earthquake or not. this is offending to many Haitians and is considered by many untrue. it is also troublesome how this user used "how" rather than "how demon worship might have caused the earthquake in Haiti". Plus, nobody knows if haiti worshiped the demon. this may be a misunderstanding of the Haitian practice of voodou. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetnaynay (talk • contribs) 22:54, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Rainfall

Agriculture, tourism, and public health are all linked to rainfall; in the case of Haiti it seems particularly inappropriate to omit data on, or even mention of, precipitation. (The "Environment of Haiti" article has the same flaw.) The sole reference to rainfall amounts are indirect and contradictory: Haiti is described as "lush" in 1925, but now suffers from "desertification." My impression is that probably some parts have appreciable annual rainfall totals, some may actually have enough to become "lush", and most of the country, being largely on the leeward side of Hispaniola, is semi-arid or arid. Is Haiti wettish or dryish? Can anyone find data on precipitation? C. Cerf (talk) 19:34, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

French as official language

There is at least one other country that designates French as an official language: The United States. In Louisiana, French is co-official with English. The US as a whole has no official language, instead each state and territory designates its own. 118.42.219.226 (talk) 23:02, 20 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.42.219.226 (talk) 22:58, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

And French is most definitely NOT the predominant language, the only language spoken by all Haitians is Creole. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.94.142.84 (talk) 04:25, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

HIV/AIDS

The article states that approximately 5% of Haiti's adult population is infected with HIV according to a laughable and erroneous article from BBC (Haiti's Aids and voodoo challenge by Nick Caistor, BBC News, 20 November, 2003. Retrieved 2010-02-16.)The UN indicates that 2.2% of the adult population is infected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phijona (talk • contribs) 07:43, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Climate of Haiti

How about an article on Climate of Haiti. Quite important dont you think? Rehman⁽⁺⁾ 02:03, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

The earthquake of January 12, 2010

In my opinion, the ""Talk: Haiti"", page should mention that different cities were affected as well as Port-au-Prince, such as Jacmel, Leogane, Grand Goave, Petit Goave, Miragoane, just to name a few. People living elsewhere in Haiti, need help just as the ones in Port-au-Prince. Please check out: the article is from January 12, 2010,

article date: January 13, 2010.

NouvelleFemme10 (talk) 22:05, 21 March 2010 (UTC)NouvelleFemme10, 03/21/2010. it is so sad what happend in haiti i can't imagine the horror when the earthquake started —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.32.76.175 (talk) 23:54, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Peace of Basel

For a few years France gained the control of the whole island, as part of the peace of basel. I think that should be included in the article, or not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jvargas78 (talk • contribs) 12:39, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Inadvertent revert to vandalised page revision

Apologies for this edit. The fault was completely mine.--Shirt58 (talk) 16:01, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I forgive you! Favonian (talk) 16:05, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

1934 - 1966 needs to be expanded greatly

the soft regimes after the US ocupation jump strait to malgories reign to the 56 elections... this entire section is missing the allied victory inspired 1946 "revolution" the rise of political power of the new black middle class as a side effect of the U.S. ocupation (thats not endorsing it) the evolution of the Noiriste movement and the political groups forming during the time to fill the void of lescots departure. the election of Dumarsais Estimé on August 16 1946 as a noriste leader bringing about social changes and happening to hire many prominant leaders of the MOP party, one being François Duvalier. estimé represented the first real execution of the growing noiriste movement of that black middle class and malgorie coup in 1950 not only sqashed that but would lead to what we saw with Duvaliers reign.

an amazing source for this page would be Nicholls, David. From Dessalines to Duvalier: Race, Colour and National Independence in Haiti. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1979. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.120.151.167 (talk) 19:24, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Notable Haitians

Well I've been working on the list for a little while. These lists tend to get out of control quite easily; I've found a number of entries where I could not find any indication from their article or a google search that they have ties to Haiti.

I've had my eye on this list for a while. I noticed all the redlinked entries; people that haven't met the bare-bones minimum indication of notability - a Wikipedia article.

While trimming the list (this takes actual work) I noticed several things. The first thing is that there is a stand-alone list already present here in Wikipedia and it's not linked from this article. The other thing that I noticed is that there's a {{Haiti topics}} navigation template that's available and it too is not present in this article.

Here's what I'll do based on the idea that we have duplicate lists going on the notable Haitians. I'll remove the embedded list in this article and add the content to the stand alone list. Then I will add a link to that article in "See also" plus the "Haiti topics" nav template (which also includes a link to the List of Haitians list). Dawnseeker2000 23:09, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Tributary Caciquedoms

The sentence "The caciquedoms were tributary kingdoms, with payment consisting of harvests" is confusing and ambiguous. I take it that they were not tributary TO another entity, but were recipients of tribute, in which case perhaps it could be "...receiving tribute from subordinate units in the form of harvests," or something like that.Gusuku (talk) 22:40, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

This article vs "History of Haiti"

While the History of Haiti is a good deal longer than the "summary" here, the summary has deviated, as they always do, so it is more sophisticated and up-to-date. It is no longer a "summary" for the reader of history would really have to go to both places to learn. This should not be necessary. Editors are needed to fix the "History" article with information from this one. Student7 (talk) 21:45, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Cholera

Article text: "More than 2,500 people in a region to the north of the capital Port-au-Prince are being treated for the illness, which causes diarrhoea, acute fever, vomiting and severe dehydration."

Recommended edit: "More than 3,000 people in a region to the north of the capital Port-au-Prince are being treated for the illness, which causes diarrhoea, acute fever, vomiting and severe dehydration, leading to death if untreated, often within 10 to 12 hours of onset of symptoms."

98.71.175.88 (talk) 12:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC) Johnny W. Brewer

English Pronunciation

Is 'Hate-ee' the only accepted pronunciation in English? I am British and grew up pronouncing it 'High-ee-tee' (similar to the Creole pronunciation but with the H sounded). Until recently I had believed that Hate-ee was just the US American pronunciation, however since the earthquake in January I have become aware that the British media uses Hate-ee also. To my ears it sounds strange. Could High-ee-tee be included as an alternative pronunciation, or is it really so rare in English that it does not warrant inclusion? Thanks 80.195.252.5 (talk) 14:13, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm can see(guess?) where "High-tee" would be a logical pronunciation for Brits. I don't know about the three syllable one though. Student7 (talk) 18:58, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd never heard 'High-ee-tee' until very recently, always heard Hate-ee from the BBC. BBC Radio 4 has been background listening for me since my childhood in the 1970s. But my guess is that this is based on a misapprehension regarding the French pronunciation. If there was no diaeresis (trema, two dots) over the "i" I'm guessing the French pronunciation would be "ate-ee". And the two dots for diaeresis is just about unknown in modern English, even personal names such as Lois and Chloe are not usually spelled with it. So the question is, now that we know it is "High-ee-tee" is there any reason for us Anglophones to persist with the pronunciation Hate-ee? Should that pronunciation not be deleted from the head of the article? It might be unreasonable to expect us to drop the H sound as that is counter-intuitive for most English speakers, but to recognize that the vowels are not a diphthong is surely not unreasonable. But see http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/magazinemonitor/2010/01/how_to_say_haiti_and_portaupri.shtmlPeterR (talk) 22:56, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

No. We are not here to establish new or even "correct" ways of pronouncing something. Think how we should sing Mao Tse-Dung! Middle C, e-flat, uh... No. Worse, we spell things wrong. Milan should be Milano, Florence "Firenz". No. This has all been fought out before. Stick to the regular English way however wrong. The only problem is introducing other English variants. Not sure that isn't taken care of by whatever dialect "owns" the article. I suspect (without looking) that it is American. So Hate-ee wins! Student7 (talk) 03:31, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Comparaison to Dominican Republic

I think it is important to STOP comparing Haiti to the Dominican Republic. Saying that Haiti is this time or that time poorer than the Dominican Republic is ABSOLUTELY not helpful nor meaningful (except if the idea here is to make people have some assumptions and prejudice). I don't think it would be necessary to compare Canada to the United States or any other country. Therefore i find it very unnecessary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.92.247.36 (talk) 01:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

"Wasteland"

Was anyone else irritated/confused/outraged when they stumbled upon the Haiti article and the first sentence read "Haiti...is a Caribbean wasteland." ? The word "wasteland" was quickly changed, but are there often loaded and misleading words being used to describe Haiti on this page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.204.254.71 (talk) 21:26, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

"Most Haitians speak Spanish"???

At the end of the opening paragraph someone asserts that most Haitians, due to Haiti's proximity to the Dominican Republic speak Spanish semi-fluently/fluently. Is that verifiable??? That seems a bit far-fetched to me.76.27.213.53 (talk) 07:26, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Because of the number of Haitian migrant workers in Cuba and the Dominican Republic, I wouldn't doubt many do. Most does seem pretty strong, though I don't have any evidence either way. -LlywelynII 18:31, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Most Haitians don't Speak Spanish. That is the first thing Dominicans complaint about Haitian inmigrants over there. It is true that a lot of them do know a few word to get by but to say that most Haitians are semi fluent is just too much of an exaggeration. After all, about a 40% of Haitians are illiterate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.70.115.74 (talk) 22:04, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I've removed it. No one has ever supplied a WP:RS or, in fact, any citation that shows that Haitians are "often" fluent in Spanish. Student7 (talk) 18:27, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Motto

The national motto (at least at the beginning of the Republic) always remained Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite despite Petion's using "Unity makes Strong" on his seal. Is there some governmental source that Petion's motto is now the national one? -LlywelynII 15:27, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Mulattoes

It is a bit aggravating that nowhere is it stated in this or apparently any other article about Haiti, that their is, or was, a "ruling class" constituted of mulattoes. This appears to have something to do with the current non-pc status of the word in the U.S. While this is fine for the future, it has little to do with the present and nothing whatever to do with the past of Haiti (or most other nations, but that is not a problem for this set of articles).

Having said that, I am guilty of erasing material that said that Duvalier "favored blacks." It did not talk of class/race before that, and "favoring blacks" within the fiction that there are only blacks in Haiti did not seem to make sense. Some elaboration is needed even if only one sentence but it has to be well-cited. Student7 (talk) 02:45, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Hayti as alternate spelling

The article has been edited, twice, to include the statement that "Hayti" is an alternate spelling for Haiti. Is there a reliable source for this? The most recent edit summary suggests searching Wikipedia itself, which turns up the disambiguation page Hayti. Unfortunately, this is not a reliable source; it's a self-reference. Thanks. – Wdchk (talk) 05:34, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

The CIA World Factbook website offers "Ayiti" as an alternative spelling. I've never seen Hayti. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ha.html. (107.5.179.200 (talk) 05:02, 7 February 2012 (UTC))

the 2004 coup is referred to as a coup, not a rebellion

See the page for 2004 Haitian coup d'état -- per the discussion on that page, it's been decided that "rebellion" is a misnomer. Rebellion suggests some sort of popular uprising rather than military/paramilitary takeover. The agents in the takeover included ex-military paramilitaries, and members of the Haitian National Police who had been co-opted by the opposition. That makes it a coup. Not to mention the allegations that US military forces "kidnapped" Aristide (and the established fact that, after Aristide's removal, the US military collaborated with the paramilitaries and police in perpetrating violence against Aristide's supporters among the civilian populace). This has all been discussed on the edit page for the article linked above, where it was also mentioned that "rebellion" has been the preferred term only among the anti-Aristide camp because it falsely implies mass popular support for the event and also because it conveniently discounts the institutional forces at work behind Aristide's overthrow. Please change? 68.193.173.240 (talk) 14:01, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Farmer in Haiti

Apologies for dramatic tag. Couldn't find one that seemed appropriate to the ONE sentence that didn't seem right. I am not criticizing the whole article.

Paul Farmer is definitely a very notable person. But for medicine and anthropology not history. This is ancient stuff and you can probably find something a little better worded and with improved accuracy from a historian. Student7 (talk) 02:45, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't know how you've got that impression, but he's certainly notable for his history and current events as well. "The Uses of Haiti" is a politics/history book, not really a medical book (though it briefly touches on medical subjects in the context of current events and history), and it's widely acclaimed (including among academics) and widely sold. In that book he charts some obscure facts of history that don't get mention in many other histories of Haiti: the trade in extracted Haitian blood, the early development of AIDS on the island, the nuances of US policy during the '91 coup, the treatment of interned refugees in Guantanamo bay (including particularly harsh treatment of those who are HIV positive). The last issue is one which other academics have cited him for. His more recent book, "After the Earthquake," details some historical issues like the recent involvement of Cuban doctors on the island and their uniquely effective impact (when measured relative to the countless North American and European NGO's, whose efficacy is often negligible despite good intentions). In this last book, his medical and historical fields overlap, as he is perhaps the foremost authority in his ability to evaluate the history of NGOs in Haiti. He's interviewed on non-medical subjects, including Haitian politics, all the time. 68.193.173.240 (talk) 14:05, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Independence Day?

I couldn't help but notice, most other articles about nation-states include information about the day that the government officially celebrates independence. Given that Haiti has such a complex history of rebellions and coups, it would be nice to have an easy reference of the "official" date of Haitian independence. According to the CIA World Factbook website, here: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ha.html, Haiti celebrates their Independence Day on January 1, 1804. Please change. (107.5.179.200 (talk) 04:58, 7 February 2012 (UTC))

Edit request on 26 February 2012

Haiti contains 85% blacks and 15% Mullato & white Curlyhairedchick (talk) 01:08, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, we have a source that says otherwise (95 and 5). If you have a different source you may provide one here, but please don't change figures on articles without providing a source. Dawnseeker2000 01:29, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Number of dead in the 2010 Earthquake and citation

The text states "316,000" died in the earthquake. The citation links to an article about Sean Penn, in which it is claimed that "up to a quarter of a million" perished. The number as given in the article is obviously incorrect, and needs to be changed. In addition, a more reliable source than Sean Penn needs to be provided.193.64.21.82 (talk) 14:02, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Square flag?

Flag of Haiti states that the official flag is now square. If thisis correct we need a new image. Meters (talk) 16:59, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Indigo link correction

There was a link to indigo (First paragraph under History-->Treaty of Ryswick and French colony (1697) "devoted land to the cultivation of coffee and indigo" where indigo linked to an article on the color but obviously shouldn't. Since the indigo is used a few paragraphs down in a context where it must mean the same thing (and is the only indigo export that I know of) I felt confident that changing the link for indigo "cultivation of coffee and indigo" but thought that I should note it anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.8.90.141 (talk) 07:56, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Accent marks

Accent marks are not available on the English keyboard. When I read a text (in English) and wish to search for (say) "Hebert", it is not helpful when someone has placed foreign accents on an (in effect) translated name. Same with Japanese or Russian or any other non-English language. We are not trying to turn English into French. English has absorbed many words from French over the years. But without the accents, diacriticals, etc. They aren't on the keyboard. We should not need an "easy workaround." We should not need any workaround. And we won't, if editors would only use the English alphabet. Student7 (talk) 20:55, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand your argument. The word "Hébert" refers to someone's name. Surely the only reason it should not be accented is if that is not a correct representation of the name? Why do you say it is not possible to copy the accented name from the text and paste it into your searchbar? Also, words in English do have accents, diacritcs etc. e.g naïve, naïveté. And how does your approach work with English people who have names with diacritics e.g. Charlotte Brontë? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 21:07, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Short answer: there is nothing to copy and paste. Or even copy.

This may sound strange to you, but I actually read printed material. It is written in English. It has no accents whatever. Often there is no accent online either for the same reason. We have no circumflex, no umlats, no Cyrillic letters, no Kanji. The language of the en.wikipedia is English. There are no letters that have "helpful" accent marks on them. We sometimes find that people whose first language is English and who have read something (only), pronounce it incorrectly, because they have never heard it spoken. English normally drops on the last syllable (unaccented?). Except when it doesn't. You just have to know. You are incorrect about naive. There are no helpful marks. I tried one suggested way of getting foreign accents on my keyboard and failed. I don't know why I would want them anyway.

Messing up some future English editor's search is unhelpful. It would be just like omitting accent marks in French. It would mess up a Francophone's search for something. It would be just as wrong to omit them in fr.wikipedia as it is to insert them in en.wikipedia. And for the same reason. Searches fail.

We are not trying to get English speakers to learn French (or any other language). We are trying to give them information that they can search on using their English keyboards and search engines. Student7 (talk) 21:42, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I understand the point you are making regarding searching from printed material, but it is invalid. If I type "Jean Hebert" (no accent) into my searchbar, the first page which google lists is the Wikipedia article for "Jean Hébert" (with accent), thus proving that it is quite possible to access online material with accents via a search word that lacks them. By the way, do you suggest that the title of that article is incorrect for the English Wikipedia?

I am not 'incorrect' about naïve; my Collins English dictionary (1985) lists "naive, naïve or naïf" and also "naiveté, naïveté or naivety" as accepted spellings.

You did not address my question about Charlotte Brontë; perhaps you don't object to that because she wasn't "foreign"?

There are phrases and words used in English which are borrowed directly from other languages and which retain their accents etc. (e.g. coup d'état, glacé cherries); do you suggest these should be rewritten to fit your view of what constitutes the English language?

Some of your other arguments lack rigour ("You just have to know", "I don't know why I would want them anyway"). PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 22:09, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

As you might imagine, this is not the first time the use of (non-English) diacritics have been discussed in the English Wikipedia. See Wikipedia:Usage of diacritics, one of many failed proposals. As I've mentioned above, they are hard to use and support. There is no current justification for using foreign language accents or letters in the English Wikipedia. Student7 (talk) 21:57, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I have had a look at what the MOS states concerning this topic, the most relevant text being "The use of diacritics (such as accent marks) for foreign words is neither encouraged nor discouraged; their usage depends on whether they appear in verifiable reliable sources in English and on the constraints imposed by specialized Wikipedia guidelines". It appears the deciding factor is how the word is used in the (English language) sources, rather than any of the arguments either you or I were putting forward. I should have looked at the MOS in the first place. I wouldn't advise removing diacritics as part of a personal commitment to doing so; it depends on the sources. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 22:19, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Earthquake

The last paragraph of the lead states "On January 12, 2010, a 7.0 magnitude earthquake struck Haiti and devastated the capital city, Port-au-Prince. Although the exact number was difficult to determine, an estimated 316,000 people were killed.[6]"

Either the reference or the number needs changing. Referenced article is titled "Haiti quake death toll rises to 230,000" and is also used to support this figure later in the article. Kmitch87 (talk) 22:11, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Most likely should be changed to the lower figure. The problem is the Haitian government, the least likely to have accurate figures threw darts and made that guess early on and never backed down, figuring that the publicity would help the country, I suppose. No one still has any idea, but the other figures are neutral and have no axe to grind. The figure is much less. Having said that, the magnitude of the quake would prevent anyone from "running out of a building" to escape. They would be thrown about too much. And not having experienced a severe earthquake anyway, would not really know what to do. Anyone caught indoors in a stone building was probably killed or injured. Might have survived in a building with another construction. So there were definitely a lot of deaths.

So anyway, the best guesses are from foreign volunteer agencies which are available. We have editors who like high figures for various reasons. They have objected to using the lower figures. You may change them if you wish. Student7 (talk) 02:15, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Haiti resides on a fault line, this is due to the geographic location. 85,000 years ago it was a continent attached to the faroe islands, now its scattered pieces remain above it, jamaica for instance is part of the bermuda islands that scatters all over the place. It was a continent in the southern pacific and atlantic. It went up north and collided with cuba. The earthquakes are common in haiti and always have been. Its def something to look into. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.100.60.164 (talk) 18:48, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

We need something like what you just wrote, under "Geology" with three equal signs under Geography (a subtopic of geography). It would include the fault line. It needs a WP:RS even for that. The fault line has a name and it's own article. The rest is "geologic history" and we don't really have a place for that. The last major earthquake in Haiti was a long time ago. Not something that could be predicted or "built against" like Japan and the West Coast of US does. Nearly everyplace, except Florida, has earthquakes of some magnitude. Student7 (talk) 21:52, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Haiti's ethnic groups

Hi I'm from the beautiful island of Haiti. My is question regarding Haiti ethnic groups.Haiti was ruled by France for 107 years how come 5 percent is mulatto and white and 95 percent pure black when you look at southern Haitians they are mixed french and African and Taino or Arwark and Carib Indians dna( the first inhabitant of Haiti) like Fond Des Blanc ,Jacmel ,Les Cayes,Jeremie and etc.. and Northern and West Haiti like Port de Paix ,Gros Morne,Milot and Cap Haitien and also Eastern Haitian from Capotille,Quanaminthe,Mont -Orgranise have Spanish Dna because of the Africans that mixed with the Spainard and don't forget Haiti was ruled by Spain before the French took over. Many Haitans are mixed like Jean pierre Boyer,Andre Riguad,Vincent Oge,Stenio Vincent,Louis Borno,Jacques Romain,Charles Rivard Henerie,Nissage Sagget, Sudre Dartiguenave,Tancrede Augeste,Heri Namphy,Michel Martelly,Garcelle Beauvias,John James Audubon,Guy Sansaricq, Tvice,Carimi,Mawon,Evelyn Miot,Sarodj Bertin and many more.The capital area Port Au Prince population is more likey pure African descent(as seen on the television which is one-fourth of Haiti's population) but except Pettionville which is a multicultural .I would say Haiti's population is 25-30 percent is pure African descent ,20-25 percent is African and French descent,5-10 percent is Spanish and African descent,25-30 percent is Taino and African descent,about 5-10 percent is white mostly Arab ,German ,and Jewish(Remember United States Soliders of German descent)and 15-20 percent is multicultural and 2-5 percent is other.Haiti is not 95 percent Black and 5 percent mulatto and whites and I've seen my fair share of mixed and pure black Haitians and the remember Haitian government doesn't do census so image how many are mixed,white,black and other races,and in Haiti person who's mixed is considered to have almost completely Euro DNA and not half ,or quarter or even five percent like in the USA,Europe and other parts of Latin america and if Haitians were pure African descent they would probably be able to speak native African tongues instead of Haitian Kreyol and French .Thank you for reading my request. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ayiti12 (talk • contribs) 17:17, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Ayiti12, in short, I agree and you are absolutely correct. The CIA demographics of Haiti are wrong. How did they perform a proper consensus if the Haitian government themselves haven't taken one? Until they do, the view of Haiti's demographics will most likely stay the same. Savvyjack23 (talk) 00:16, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Colloquial and questionable

The statement that the "enforced payment to France hollowed out Haiti financially for years, and the failure of western nations to recognize it kept its economy and society isolated" is colloquial and very questionable. Small annual payments cannot "hollow out" any economy. Western nations did not fail to recognize Haiti, and even if there was no diplomatic contact that does not result in economic of social isolation - those are quite different matters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Royalcourtier (talk • contribs) 09:39, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Are you questioning the source (which I do not have access to)? Or the summary of the source? I like what you are saying but it needs WP:RS and proof that the other source was mis-summarized or not WP:RS. Note that the payment dropped in 1838. This implies something, most likely Haiti's having difficulty meeting the payment (along with France's not really needing the money that much). Student7 (talk) 13:06, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

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Insurance: Example: Caribbean Development Bank

Due to the earthquake crisis in 2010, there have been some modifications to Haiti's insurance, such as, insurance provided by Caribbean Development Bank: http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/politics/2014/10/24/caribbean-development-bank-gives-haiti-25-mn-for-disaster-insurance/ . Other countries do not have an "insurance" section, such as "USA", so I ask if it is a good idea to perform such a task or integrate the information into what is already present? Twillisjr (talk) 11:07, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

You may have a point. This could go under "Economy," but would not include history, which seems hard to do in Haiti articles.

See, for example, Vermont#Insurance. That is pretty much it for little Vermont. USA has Insurance in the United States which could be summarized under a similarly-named subsection under US#Economy, I suppose. Student7 (talk) 14:43, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Francophone?

Unless I'm mistaken, the vast majority of Haitians speak Creole, not French. And no, Haitian Creole is not a dialect of French.Don't Be Evil (talk) 19:35, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Actually Haitian creole is a patois of French and yes, they are Francophone; see its membership in Francophonie. If the French never came, the Haitian creole would never exist. The difference is mostly in grammatical rules and shortcuts; eg: French: Passe la poulet, si'l vous plait (Pass the chicken, please), Pase poul la, souple. (Haitian Creole) Also spellings in creole are out to look how they sound so it could be easy to read, opposed to French not sounding how it is read at times. This could often be a big misleader when comparing the two languages. Savvyjack23 (talk) 20:01, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

French is one of Haiti's official languages, but the vast majority of Haitians cannot speak French, and so are not Francophones. I've removed the statement "Haiti is the only predominantly Francophone independent nation in the Americas" from the article, as Haiti is in reality a predominantly Creolophone, not Francophone, nation. In fact, the percentage of Haitians who can speak French is much lower than the percentage of Canadians who speak French, so it's absurd to suggest that Haiti is more Francophone than Canada. And contrary to what the comment above suggests, Haitian Creole is not sloppy French, but a distinct language mutually unintelligible with French. 125.253.96.20 (talk) 12:06, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I have undone this change. Haiti is indeed a Francophone nation. Please consult the page before you decide to make such a drastic change again. French has been the sole official language until 1986; usage in books, movies, everything. Let's say 15% of the nation speak French. That's 1,470,000 people; more than the entire French Antilles combined. Thank you. Savvyjack23 (talk) 18:32, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

The question is not whether or not Haiti is Francophone, but whether it is predominantly Francophone. As you say, perhaps 15% of the country can speak French as a second language (the number of people who speak it as their first language is negligible); therefore, Haiti is not predominantly Francophone. (If we consider Haiti, where 15% can speak French, to be predominantly Francophone, then surely Canada, where 30% of the population can speak French, must also be predominantly Francophone. Likewise, if Haiti must be considered predominantly Francophone because a whopping 1.5 million, out of 10 million people, can speak French, then Canada, where 10 million people can speak French, must definitely be predominantly Francophone. But in fact neither Haiti nor Canada are predominantly Francophone.) Also, the fact that Haiti is a member of the Francophonie means nothing; Bulgaria, among other Eastern European countries, is also a member of the Francophonie. What is accurate and uncontroversial is that Haiti is one of two countries in the Americas to have French as an official language; this statement alone should suffice in the introduction to explain in what way Haiti is Francophone. 58.172.33.217 (125.253.96.20) 12:09, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

You do realize that Haitian Creole is 90% French vocabulary? The fact that words are now "spelled differently" for the same exact words, doesn't change much. We aren't talking about English being a second language here. I've heard people try to counter and say its a Creoleophone? However, this makes very little linguistic sense considering creole languages can be completely different from one another. 72.226.7.250 (talk) 07:27, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Great rum?

Challenge: name one country that produces rum that is not "famous" for doing so, at least locally. Cuban Rum. St. Thomas rum, for goodness sake. I don't think they produce their own, however! Since there is no country that produces rum (or very many other products, BTW) that doesn't consider themselves "famous" for doing so, it is best to omit extra adjectives, which are merely subjective anyway. If a country exports many gallons of rum per capita, it can point that out. If some WP:RS source, like Consumer Reports says that Haitian Rum is the best, then maybe it can be used. Otherwise it simply another product that some country is trying to export. Student7 (talk) 21:43, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Rene Chery does not appear to be a WP:RS for Haitian Rum being "internationally famous." The author is just not in the right category for making that claim. It is just a WP:SPAM/WP:BOOSTER claim from that source. Student7 (talk) 22:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

"Internationally known" is not equalivalent to saying "internationally famous." Fame includes popularity, while being known simply speaks of notability. Do I have to site the 10-15 sources I have seen this from? Besides, the basis of your argument is inherently flawed as I just mentioned. Savvyjack23 (talk) 17:31, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Then perhaps the phrase is meaningless and should be dropped for being irrelevant? Like saying "Haiti is an internationally known country." True enough, but what does that convey? Student7 (talk) 20:17, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, anything can be deemed irrelevant and redundant to anyone who wishes it be. Everyone is known for something, which makes it notable and "not" redundant. Philadelphia, is known for its arts culture and history; Belize for its September Celebrations; Ecuador is also known for its rich ecology etc. Savvyjack23 (talk) 20:41, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Post Independence

"According to the 1788 Census, Haiti's population consisted of nearly 28,000 whites, 22,000 free coloreds, and 500,000 slaves. After the revolution, census was taken in every city. From an etic or outsider or the oppressor point-of-view, it is alleged that Dessalines massacred nearly all of the whites, including their mulatto children. However, a copy of the 1804 census of the city of Gros Morne retrieved from John Carter Brown Library suggests an emic or insider or the victim point-of-view.[57]"

I find the current wording a bit nonsensical and the use of "etic/emic" to be irrelevant to both the discussion occurring and indeed the source cited. The present wording suggests that it is "an allegation that Dessalines massacred nearly all white people," from an "etic" perspective, but I fail to see how the perspective of the event should change the fact of the number or nature of the massacre. I would propose that the wording be changed to reflect the scale of the massacre rather than bizarrely invoking POV as it seems to do now. Kjell86 (talk) 14:48, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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I have just added archive links to 7 external links on Haiti. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130501130703/http://flcourier.com/2012/05/10/sweet-micky-martelly-reportedly-wins-haiti-election/ to http://flcourier.com/2012/05/10/sweet-micky-martelly-reportedly-wins-haiti-election/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130630063029/http://jurist.law.pitt.edu:80/world/haiti.htm to http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/world/haiti.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20141026235754/https://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20100118/twl-haiti-fears-grows-despite-surge-in-r-4bdc673.html to http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20100118/twl-haiti-fears-grows-despite-surge-in-r-4bdc673.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130511112236/http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/12/13/3141328/haiti-gets-new-luxury-hotel.html to http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/12/13/3141328/haiti-gets-new-luxury-hotel.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120626145655/http://travel.usatoday.com:80/hotels/post/2011/11/marriott-announces-first-hotel-in-haiti-port-au-prince/574010/1 to http://travel.usatoday.com/hotels/post/2011/11/marriott-announces-first-hotel-in-haiti-port-au-prince/574010/1
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150620114228/http://www.uspolicy.be/headline/state-dept-fact-sheet-haitis-caracol-industrial-park to http://www.uspolicy.be/headline/state-dept-fact-sheet-haitis-caracol-industrial-park
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150722062143/http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-14/haiti-survivors-face-outbreaks-of-diarrhea-measles-malaria.html to http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-14/haiti-survivors-face-outbreaks-of-diarrhea-measles-malaria.html

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Major overhaul of intro needed, extreme bias

This article is extremely biased, and ignores the reality of country in Haiti. It is a fact that Haiti is the poorest place in the western hemisphere, it is a fact that most haitians live in abject poverty, it is a fact that half of the country is illiterate, and it is a fact that Haiti has been in a state of crisis for DECADES.

The edits I've attempted have been blocked and reverted by people who seem to not want any of the realities of Haiti being mentioned in this article, and have even gone so far as to claim I'm slandering the country of Haiti. (reality and facts are not slander).

I'm going to propose a new intro section, and I'm going to seek a consensus among editors to peer review all references and facts, and in the meantime I'm going to flag this article as biased due to the attempts of deleting any mention of Haiti's poverty or problems. I will be seeking an administrator's help to ensure there is no bias in my (or others) edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haitian STEVE (talk • contribs) 16:16, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

This admin has removed your tag as your statements are clearly incorrect ("deleting any mention of Haiti's poverty"). NPOV does not mean your personal views get to be included as some sort of "balance". --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:30, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Please explain to me why you think any mention of poverty in THE POOREST PLACE ON EARTH is my personal bias. Listen, I get that diaspora haitians like to pretend Haiti isnt that bad, but this denaial of reality is crazy, facts are not my POV. Haitian STEVE (talk) 16:33, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I suggest you do a search on "poverty" on the article and see how often it comes up. Clearly your assertion "deleting any mention of Haiti's poverty" is wrong or your biases are blinding you to what the article actually says. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:37, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Your knee-jerk response on this is shocking. Yes, there are a few scattered mentions of poverty, which is ridiculous for the POOREST COUNTRY ON THIS SIDE OF THE PLANET. Do you know much about Haiti? Because if what you know is just this biased article, you would be very ignorant to the epidemic scale of poverty, lack of health, education, food, and basic necessities. While these exist in all places, Haiti is literally and factually the worst on this side of the planet, with millions of people starving, and 50% of the population cant read. This is not isolated to pockets, this is ALL OF HAITI. Please try to prove me wrong. Haitian STEVE (talk) 16:41, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Listen "HAITIAN Steve", it has nothing to do with Haiti's poverty; that fact is already evident in countless articles. You directly attacked editors and constantly reverted sections that the community has tied to as vandalism under the cuisine section. Not only that, you have been including WP:OR in your edits as if this was happening in every town in the country; you do not have sources to provide proof of that. Pétion-Ville, Île-à-Vache, Labadee etc? Is it on the menu of any restaurants at all? No. That form of eating is also not uncommon and is linked to a chronic eating disorder; in this case because of the poor who do not have much to eat. People eat clay here in the United States too, in the rural areas of the south, but it is not under "New American Cuisine." By all means get as many editors involved as possible. This won't go very far; neither will your edits. Savvyjack23 (talk) 16:43, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi Savvyjack23, everything I've claimed has been fully referenced, your emotional response is more telling that anything else. I've seen so many thousands of children eating the cookies in haiti, filling their empty stomachs with it so they can fall asleep, pretending its a geophagia cultural choice is pure fantasy. People eat it because they're starving. Haitian STEVE (talk) 16:51, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

So propose changes and get consensus for your changes. Although that might be hard to do if they're similar to, "dirt cookies are part of the national cuisine". Your personal view that the article does sufficiently describe Haiti as hell on Earth is not sufficient for a NPOV tag. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:48, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Hello NeilN, so you're recommending I do the thing that you just blocked me from doing? Haitian STEVE (talk) 16:50, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Also, trying to further highlight Haiti's poverty on Wikipedia for an agenda to spread awareness is WP:BIAS. Is Haiti a poor country? --Yes, nobody is denying that, but there is much more to Haiti than that. Sorry if you may disagree. Like I said this is not a forum either. If you would like to spread awareness take other measures of action. Savvyjack23 (talk) 16:52, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Haitian STEVE, I removed your NPOV tag. I am recommending you propose your changes here on the talk page. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:55, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Right, because they are starving not because they really wish to eat it. Also, if they did begin to have access to proper food, they may still eat what they were eating because of the development of a PICA disorder which causes them to become accicted to it. Your own personal experiences are not fit for editing without proper sourcing. Lastly, Youtube is not a reliable source. Apart from the topic at hand, I also have serious doubts that you are even from Haiti, as you are exibuting troll-like behavior, wishing to defame a country more so on the lines of a personal agenda rather than making duly contributions. Savvyjack23 (talk) 17:02, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Hello Neiln, I never claimed the cookies were a national dish, I showed an image of them under the food section, as it IS a very common food. I attempted to find the image (which has been on wikimedia for years), however it appears that the user Savvyjack23 has attempted to delete it from other articles.

If you look at this history of the geophagia article, you'll see the user Savvyjack23 has been deleting anything involving Haiti and poverty. I am making this accusation as the evidence is overwhelming. please see for yourself. [4] Haitian STEVE (talk) 17:05, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

More personal attacks? The image is copyright protected and was not free to use; I didn't personally delete the image either; I proposed its deletion and it was reviewed by another editor. Savvyjack23 (talk) 17:14, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Its public domain, I've reinstated the image. Haitian STEVE (talk) 17:20, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Given your licensing comments, you don't understand public domain. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:31, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

You mean this image? [5] This was the original uploader and "borrowed" by another uploader without proper licensing. Image will be reinstated to its deletion. Savvyjack23 (talk) 17:37, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Listen both of you, that image was first published from the new york times in 2004. I am talking about Haitian cookies like this: [6]

This is reality in Haiti, and it is everywhere there, trying to censor it is biased.

The original NYT article that shows the woman making them is available here: [7]

I wrongly believed this was public domain, however I have contacted the author of the image asking for its use as a public domain image to be approved, if she allows this I'll re-upload as soon as she provides consent. Haitian STEVE (talk) 18:01, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

This just further shows how you do not understand what a public image is. Then, the photo is copyrighted to the New York Times. I will no longer entertain your comments. Savvyjack23 (talk) 18:08, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Hello Savvyjack23, actually if you noticed on the article, the image was produced with permission of the author, as usage does not equate ownership. I have not heard back from the author yet, but when I do I hope I will be able to legitimately use this relevant image on wikimedia. Haitian STEVE (talk) 18:14, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

"Photo by Ruth Fremson/The New York Times" She works for the Times so the copyright isn't hers. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 18:26, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I've reached out to the photographer, and neither she nor the NYT own the image anymore, it was transferred to redux images, which seems to have sold the gallery of images to company called "eyevine". I've contacted eyevine to see what they're willing to do (if anything). In the meantime Ill begin working on the new intro. Thanks for all your help everyone. Haitian STEVE (talk) 19:00, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

New intro for page

Greetings, I'm proposing to replace the current article introduction with one which is more neutral and balanced, this is heavily based on the United States CIA factbook, and references exist for every sentence. Input is welcome.

Haiti is a sovereign state, consisting of ten Departments on the island of Hispaniola. Haiti is comprised of the western third of the island, and borders the Dominic republic. Haiti is the 138th largest country in the world, and is 27,750 square kilometers.

The land now called Haiti was inhabited by aboriginal peoples known as the Taíno, who inhabited the island of Hispaniola at the time the island was discovered by Christopher Columbus in 1492. Spanish colonization began immediately after the islands discovery, and the native Taíno people all but ceased to exist within 50 years. The decline of the Taíno people was caused by European disease, intermarriage, and violence from Spanish settlers.

During the 1600’s, France began to colonize the island of Hispaniola, and in 1697 Spain withdrew from the western third of the island, which became Haiti. The French colony was based around forestry and sugar export, and quickly became the wealthiest colony in the Caribbean.

The French colony began the importation of African Slaves for labor, and by the late 1700’s Haiti contained more than half a million slaves. By 1791, the slaves revolted from the French colonial government and massacred the remaining white population of Haiti. Haiti declared its independence in 1804, and is currently the poorest country in the western hemisphere.

A devastating earthquake struck Haiti in January 2010, killing an estimated third of a million people, and leaving 1.5 million people homeless. Haiti’s lack of infrastructure, military, education, or stable government has led to one of the longest sustained humanitarian crisis in modern time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haitian STEVE (talk • contribs) 20:48, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate your efforts but there is nothing wrong with the lead. A majority of what you were saying should already be found in its history section, which is not the lead. In the lead (not specifically in this order) there is a brief history, followed by "historical" event and what's most current; a bit of geography etc. Also, Haiti was historically a "third" of Hispaniola until official borders were placed. Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:40, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Although, I do agree that something should be said about the earthquake. -- I have to admit, it'll be hard to take your proposals seriously when its pretty evident you wish to highlight everything thats wrong with the country in the lead and in all elsewhere moving forward. There is already an overwhelming amount of information on it. Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:52, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I disagree that the current intro is acceptable, I think its a mess that rambles on, and does not explain to an audience what Haiti is. I've compared the article on Haiti to "good" articles on countries for comparison, such as France, Germany, or Canada. Further, Haiti is in a constant state of emergency, one fifth of the children are slaves, malnutrition is everywhere, theres no infrastructure, people are risking their lives to flee to the dominic. The current article paints a pretty imaginary picture that is not Haiti, and even avoids the issue of the 1804 genocide, something which is PRETTY IMPORTANT in haitian history. I should change "education" in the final paragraph to "skilled labour". Haitian STEVE (talk) 23:04, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

On the contrary to common belief, Restaveks is "child labor", "not necessarily forced", hence not true slaves. These children help their families who have nothing. Malnutrition, yes; lack of 21st century infrastructure, yes; people risking their lives for other countries (not just limited to the DR), yes. The 1804 genocide is actually more controverisal than you may think. Although, it was a time when slaves beheaded their masters (which Americans in the United States did to the British after independence), its not too significant. Furthermore, this so-called "genocide," allowed whites to stay and intermarry with blacks, be exiled or not abide and die. It is worthy to note that the poles from the Polish Legion who turned on Napoleon to help the Haitians against the French survived untouched, and whites (Frenchmen), who were thought to be useful to the country (eg. engineers, teachers etc.) were not to be harmed either. This whole story is not suitable for the lead. I and editors alike have compared it to good articles. In fact, it is a strong candiate to be considered. Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:21, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

What's not Haiti about this lead? It's all Haiti. Haiti wasn't always in the state of emergency it has been in as you see today. Farmers were once able to make their own crops, until President Clinton admittedly screwed up on that affair; farmers now do not have much which in turn affects the rest of the population. Please take a serious look at WP:NEUTRAL. Welcome to WP:HT by the way. If you see any persistent vandalism, make sure to contact its administrator; me. Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:27, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

What is controversial about the white genocide in Haiti? It happened over 200 years ago and was extremely well documented, there is a very good article on wikipedia on it 1804_Haiti_massacre, do you believe this article is biased or incorrect?

Further, I believe its the most important piece of information in the intro, as for 200 years all of the largest economies in the world have not invested in Haiti due to the violence against white people, and the racist Haitian constitution that banned white people from owning land in Haiti. This is one of the root causes in the United States and Canada not investing in Haiti for the last 200 years, and this has had an effect on everything in Haiti. The 1804 genocide also played a very significant role in American politics, as the southern states of the United States opposed abolishing slavery due to fear of repeating the Haitian genocide, and even the supreme court of the United States opposed ending slavery due to the Haitian genocide. In the run-up to the US presidential election of 1860, Roger B. Taney, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, wrote "I remember the horrors of St. Domingo" and gave his opinion that the election "will determine whether anything like this is to be visited upon our own southern countrymen". Many historians believe the American civil war would not have happened without the Haitian genocide polarizing views on freeing slaves.

The genocide has shaped 200 years of international relations, controversial or not its the root cause of so much of Haiti's history that its essential to be included. Haitian STEVE (talk) 12:05, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Numbers of French soldiers in Haitian Revolution

If LeClerc's army was 20,000+, how could 50,000 French die from yellow fever? The biography of LeClerc says the army started with 40,000 but I don't see if that is sourced. Actually the source cited for the 50,000 deaths says the expeditionary force was 35,000, so I increased the starting number. That article does say Leclerc called for reinforcements before he died, so perhaps there were more deaths than the original force size. Marfinan (talk) 21:06, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Frasier seems to explain the confusion: the expedition had 20,000 soldiers and 20,000 sailors. Added ref to Frasier and clarified the figures. Marfinan (talk) 00:16, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Poles on Haiti - the true story - It should be briefly mentioned in this main article

Many Western European ex-collonialist and ex-slave-trading countries deny the fact, that Polish people were the only White people, who always stood up against the slavery and injustice performed by the so-called "Western civilization".

One exception was a military force of Poles from the Polish Legions that had fought in Napoleon's army. A majority of Polish soldiers refused to fight against the Black inhabitants. At the time, there was a familiar situation going on back in their homeland, as these Polish soldiers were fighting for their liberty from the invading Russia, Prussia and Austria that began in 1772. As hopeful as the Haitians, many Poles were seeking union amongst themselves to win back their homeland.

As a result, many Polish soldiers admired their enemy and decided to turn on the French army and join the Haitian slaves, and participated in the Haitian revolution of 1804, supporting the principles of liberty for all the people. Władysław Franciszek Jabłonowski who was half-Black was one of the Polish generals at the time. Polish soldiers had a remarkable input in helping the Haitans in the retaliation fights against the French oppressor. They were spared the fate of other Europeans. For their loyalty and support for overthrowing the French, the Poles acquired Haitian citizenship after Haiti gained its Independence, and many of them settled there to never return to Poland. It is estimated that around 500 of the 5280 Poles chose this option. Of the remainder, 700 returned to France to eventually return to Poland, and some – after capitulation – were forced to serve in British units. 160 Poles were later given permission to leave Haiti and some particular ones were sent to France at Haitian expense.

To this day, many Polish Haitians still live in Haiti and are of mixed racial origin, however some have blonde hair, light eyes, and other European features. Today, descendants of those Poles who stayed are living in Cazale, Fond-des-Blancs, La Vallée-de-Jacmel, La Baleine, Port-Salut and Saint-Jean-du-Sud.

It actually was like this: After some initial fights, the Haitans realized that the Polish soldiers have much more respect for the Haitan captives, than the Friench. They realized that Poles are not even half as cruel and the Friench. Also they realized that Poles don't really have the will to fight against the Black Haitans, and so some representatives started to talk to each other. It turned out that the Poles were forced to go to Haiti and actually identified themselves with the Haitan rebels, as since 30 years a similar situation was in the partitioned and oppressed Poland. You know the end of the story...

Now please, can someone tell me - can I add some information to this article? 192.162.150.105 (talk) 12:34, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

"Discovered" by Columbus? People already lived there...

The sentence "Originally inhabited by the indigenous Taíno people, the island was first discovered by Christopher Columbus..." is somewhat contradictory. I understand that Columbus is credited as a discoverer, but that reflects a European bias. Presumably it had been "discovered" previously, considering that people already lived there. I would suggest "the island was first discovered by people beyond the Americas when..." or something similar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cdeuskar (talk • contribs) 17:32, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Please see [note 1] right next to it. Savvyjack23 (talk) 19:45, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Partners in Health (PIH) and Dr. Paul Farmer

Could we get a sentence or two on the role of Partners in Health (PIH) and Harvard's Dr. Paul Farmer after the 21st century earthquakes? MaynardClark (talk) 01:09, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Renewable energy

I've been told that clinics in resource poor nations such as Haiti has been given medical clinics which use renewable energy. Can we get some research on the role of solar power panels and other renewable energy for such clinics? Further, plays in Haiti's renewable energy sector have included the World Bank (Jim Kim), Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation , the Clinton Foundation, and the Worldwatch Institute. There is also a strategic roadmap for renewable energy in Haiti, led by the World Watch Institute.

Renewable Energy Promotion and Development

The government of The Gambia is encouraging renewable forms of energy including solar PV systems, wind energy, biomass and other renewable energy systems and technologies. The country enjoys year-round sunshine ideal for tapping solar energy for commercial and domestic purposes. There is potential to develop the wind and biomass sources. The government has established Gambia Renewable Energy Center and seeks to collaborate with interested companies, individuals, development charities, research entities for the development of renewable energy. MaynardClark (talk) 01:09, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Haitian Genocide intro inclusion?

Im not sure why it wasnt there, its in the intro for every other encyclopedia in the world, and is the most important piece of Haitian history. I am Haitian Steve and I am happy to explain the Haitian genocide to anyone who dont know about it. Haitian STEVE (talk) 16:05, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

You introduced something "new," but removing areas in which you thought "paints a pretty imaginary picture that is not Haiti." We went over this before. It's not "painting a picture," the Haitian Revolution was a legendary event, an uprising that even Spartacus has failed to achieve. Yes there was aftermath (massacre) and while all things considered, personal experience and (perhaps hatred?) should be left out while editing (removal of historic events). There are sections for many of the things you have mentioned above already, but will look into it again further. Savvyjack23 (talk) 17:12, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

The white genocide is literally the only reason why Haitis economy has been so isolated through history, and the reason behind its poverty (lack of trade). You can personally pretend the genocide didnt happen, but wikipedia is here for historical facts. Haitian STEVE (talk) 17:19, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

No no no, that is not totally true. Haiti is isolated by the help of Thomas Jefferson going against George Washington's notion of formally recognizing Haiti and keeping trade relations as an independent "black" state when he became president, reversing the country's stance on the Haitian Revolution.[8] Furthermore, the United States was the "last" to abolish slavery, so how could they continue trade with a "slave state" (it was short-lived) if they were importing more and more slaves from Africa? Mind you in the 19th century, Haiti used to seize ships heading for those southern US states, which almost started a war; however at that time Haiti had the means of defending itself! The massacre surely did not help their cause as being recognized but it sure was not a sole contributor. (Its also misleading because Haiti did not hang all the whites! Some were allowed to stay; eg. "Some professionals useful to the state and the Polish legion, whom were loyal to the Haitian cause." Heard of "Fond-des-Blancs," (literally "Place of the Whites" [9]) or "Cazale?" It had everything to do with race. If those were whites against whites, nobody would have said a word, so let's be frank. Also upon independences in Latin America, Bolivar and company pretty much said "FU" to Haiti after caving to US-pressure, had a Pan-American trade agreement in place that excluded Haiti for the fear of becoming embargoed themselves. [10] They needed trade. The indemnity to France surely didn't help matters either. Not only did they pay France more than the "Louisiana Purchase" which the US received for "three cents per acre" but they also traded with France almost exclusively for a discount. Did anyone cry out when us Americans hung the Brits before, during and after its Revolution? --No-- Savvyjack23 (talk) 17:29, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

The torture and massacre of whites in Haiti, normally known at the time as "the horrors of St. Domingo", was a constant and prominent theme in the discourse of southern political leaders and had influenced American public opinion since the events took place.

Kevin C. Julius writes:

As abolitionists loudly proclaimed that "All men are created equal" echoes of armed slave insurrections and racial genocide sounded in Southern ears. Much of their resentment towards the abolitionists can be seen as a reaction to the events in Haiti.

In the run-up to the US presidential election of 1860, Roger B. Taney, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, wrote "I remember the horrors of St. Domingo" and gave his opinion that the election "will determine whether anything like this is to be visited upon our own southern countrymen".[30]

Abolitionists recognized the strength of this argument on public opinion in both the north and south. In correspondence to the New York Times in September 1861 (during the war), an abolitionist named J.B. Lyon addressed this as a prominent argument of his opponents:

We don't know any better than to imagine that emancipation would result in the utter extinction of civilization in the South, because the slave-holders, and those in their interest, have persistently told us ... and they always instance the "horrors of St. Domingo"

The most prominent politicians in the united states literally said "Haiti"s white genocide is why we should not abolish slavery", how can you pretend that this event did not create the political enviroment Haiti has been in for 200 years?

Why do you think one of the first things mentioned in the official USA world factbook is the Haitian genocide?

[11] N <------[reviewed by Savvyjack23] does not mention Haiti
Haitian STEVE (talk) 17:45, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Please cite that last statement. Plus I eluded to Jefferson because he was a "slave owner," I also mentioned that they were the "last country" to abolish slavery. Of course they didn't want their blacks to uprise like they did Haiti, so these planters can take a loss? It was all in the name of "free labor and big gains". France has stated numerous times of the sweat of the blacks creating the great nation of the US. They would know best because Haiti's sweat made them great as well! What you are saying is nothing new. These are all people's opinions and this was "one" reason. Don't you think the French had more of a reason to not trade with Haiti then the US? The Haitians did not kill Americans and yet France recognized them for a lump sum. The blacks in the US didn't even have full rights until the last second half of the 20th century, while still bad in the 90s! I have laid down even more for you. Savvyjack23 (talk) 17:54, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Furthermore, you do realize that there was a Civil War in the states between the north and south over this? These "abolishment" ideals were already evident (Europe was entertaining the abolishment of slavery, and granting some freedoms as well) when George Washington was ready to recognize Haiti's independence. Slaveowners like Jefferson didn't want it. Obviously, the thought back then was horrific, being killed by your maids and servants who had zero rights. Again, how do you recognize a slave state while the slavery and lack of rights to blacks were still occurring in the states? You can't. Savvyjack23 (talk) 18:07, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Alexandre Pétion agreed to help Simon Bolivar gain independence from Spain contingent on abolishing slavery in his territories. [Arana, M., 2013, Bolivar, New York: Simon & Schuster, ISBN 9781439110195 ] Again, you cannot acknowledge a "black" republic without abolishing slavery! After the Civil War, Haiti was recognized by the US. Savvyjack23 (talk) 18:13, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

What those "horrors" pertain to is the fear of their own slaves uprising, which led to stricter conditions for their slaves in the south.The fear of losing everything like the French to the blacks. They weren't ready to abolish slavery if they were going to become great. It made France great. In the south, it was all about preserving their money and the slaves were free. C'mon can you really not see that here? So the "Haiti massacre" is merely an opinion like the rest for Haiti's conditions, just like saying "the sweat of blacks helped make America great." It is evident, that the northern states no longer particularly cared for slavery anymore which led to the Civil War. Although, black rights were a totally different subject, however the independent state of Haiti was recognized and more of less had full rights in regards to trade, more so then the blacks without rights in the US, which led to a Haitian emigration of US-blacks to migrate to Haiti by the way of invitation by the Haitian government, as Haiti declared it home to all peoples of African descent. Boyer also did this [12] when he ruled the island of Haiti (which included Santo Domingo; today known as the Dominican Republic). Savvyjack23 (talk) 18:25, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• Haitian STEVE, I am with Savvyjack23 on this. We cannot continue to sabotage Haitian articles, drain the editors' energies in discussions that appear never to end. Before making any changes to this article, particularly to the Haitian Revolution section, I suggest all contributors should become familiar with the increasingly large historiography on the subject. New data is emerging rapidly, and Haitian Revolutionary Studies are moving so fast, that even Franklin Knight's famous 2000 article (free on the Internet) is outdated already. Encyclopedias update their data at least yearly. To claim that Haiti is poor because of the massacre is to generalize to the point of making history irrelevant. --Caballero/Historiador (talk) 20:51, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

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Daylight savings time

Daylight savings time in Haiti has been removed here. If one knows differently, DST can be restored there. Swliv (talk) 19:12, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

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Sources, edit summaries and the talk page

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A tutorial. Many thanks. Caballero/Historiador ^⎌ 21:31, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

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Francophonie

Surprised to see that the international Francophonie organisation isn't listed (at least in the English version - it's there in the French one) as one of the bodies Haiti belongs to - it was a founding member, with French as an official language.178.197.239.204 (talk) 14:31, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

@178.197.239.204: Could you explain your point and offer relevant links and sources. Thanks Caballero/Historiador ^⎌ 21:31, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Think I satisfied this one. Check the lead; lists Haiti among other organizations it is a founding member of as well. Savvyjack23 (talk) 04:12, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Article needs major overhaul

The United States federal government lists Haiti as one of the few Major Illicit Drug-Producing and Drug-Transit Countries in the world, as well as Haiti being the poorest country in the western hemisphere, and being the #1 country in the world for child slavery.

I'm disappointed that this article mentions none of the major political and socioeconomic issues that Haiti has faced for the last 50 years. I believe this article needs a major overhaul. Mobydickhermanmelville (talk) 13:22, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Disappointed that the same ol' negative rhetoric is not constantly regurgitated maybe?
1. The U.S. federal government mentions Haiti among 16 other countries below the U.S. border [13] (Are you really surprised?) Article mentions "Haiti" once, in an alphabetical list. Haven't found anything significant besides being a "transit stop". N / 2. Poverty Y / 3. #1 child "slavery" N (not even top 10; not mentioned in United States of Labor, see: CNN: The 10 worst countries for child labor among others...). Savvyjack23 (talk) 04:10, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

In fact for 2017, human trafficing conditions in Haiti has improved from Tier 3 to Tier 2WL (watchlist) from another report from CNN. They were especially highlighted for "creating a post-Hurricane Matthew emergency working group to address human trafficking." US lists China as among worst human trafficking offenders Savvyjack23 (talk) 18:55, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

I'd also suggest reviewing the reference [40]"Haiti, the First Black Republic", library.flawlesslogic.com. Not only is it an indirect source (why not find the original quote by Bernard Diederich? Was he even qualified to make such an observation?), it's a blog written by a white supremacist. How on earth is that a reliable source? 28/03/2018

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Voodoo

For good or for bad, Haiti is known for voodoo (maybe it was that James Bond movie that did it). Anyway, I came here to find out what percentage of the population practices or believes in voodoo (they could believe in mainstream religion but still believe in voodoo), but there is basically no mention of voodoo in this Wikipedia article. Anyway, it would be nice to have some stats on voodoo believers. Thanks in advance.Betathetapi545 (talk) 07:01, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

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Geology

• Haiti#Geology says little about the general geology, except about earthquake risks. What types and geological ages of rocks are there? What fold zones? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:05, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Child slavery capital of the world and poorest country in the western hemisphere

I'm doing a school project on Haiti about the child slavery epidemic and the incredible poverty.

I've read some books like world traveller and the CIA facebook, why is all this missing from the wiki article? Can someone add it???

75.98.19.132 (talk) 02:12, 29 December 2017 (UTC)mangopus

Reparations and Haiti

The topic of reparations in Haiti is more than a "political" issue. It is at the root of the way many Haitians and sympathizers see their relationship to the West. It is also more complicated than what Westerners often make of it. To ignore it, is to blatantly skew the present situation in Haiti, and its history, to conform to our view, sidestepping in this way our responsibility of presenting the various sides of reality. The statement that Nyttend (WP:SYSOP) deleted here was far from a complete argument. And since it has been gradually trimmed until virtual disappearance, it could not have spoken for the entire field. The user justified erasing it by saying: "21st century: No evidence of that being long-term significant; it's just a political statement, not a significant step to anyone in the country." By deleting it, however, the user is simply eliminating the topic out of the conversation and silencing an important issue off the article. The statement, true, seems orphan (WP:IMPERFECT) but it is in no way out of place nor unsourced. So, it needs expansion rather than trimming. If you have other thoughts, please, let us talk about it here rather than deleting content from this site that you are still yet to understand. Though the work is slow, there is no stagnation in this article. More importantly, there has not been a systematic discussion about this subject. So, deleting this statement is not a (WP:BRD), but instead, an example of what should not be done (WP:BRD-NOT). A simple question here in the article's Talk Page would have shown more respect for the editors working here than yet another example of driveby-content-erasing. The first line about content removal (WP:CRV) says, "When removing content from a page, it is important to be sure there is consensus to do so." There was no question, no survey, no way to gauge the views of the editors before removing this content. Caballero//Historiador ^☊ 10:14, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

"Reverting your change does not mean I do not appreciate your work and contribution" sounds like saying "with all due respect"; I don't believe either one. I marvel to read such a clueless statement, because demanding a talk page discussion before removing content is completely out of line with our community standards, and the actions you deride as "driveby-content-erasing" are normal editing by someone who most definitely understands this site. Now, can you provide evidence from historical sources demonstrating the longterm significance of this importance? Not a newspaper writing about recent events, written by a journalist whose job doesn't demand historical perspective, but a scholarly secondary source writing about this announcement? Have professional historians viewed this subject as important enough that they need to devote attention to it, whether in journals or solidly published books? For such a broad-topic article as a country, we mustn't be satisfied with news reports. But wait, your source doesn't say that it's attempting to sidestep anything. Where's your evidence for that? And where does the article discuss the creation of an "official commission for the settlement of past wrong-doings"? As you learnt long ago in your history classes, presentation of a citation immediately after a chunk of sentences is a statement that the text in question is derived from the source: if that statement is wrong, you're hoaxing, and hoaxes must be removed. Nyttend (talk) 14:49, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

@Nyttend: As WP:SYSOP you should know, better than most, the basic tenet of Good Faith (WP:GF), and that is exactly how you should have taken my words. There are some who prefer polite conversation. The essays on good editing practices (WP:EQ, WP:CIV) and reciprocity give me the impression that what you did was not necessarily wrong, but was nevertheless not the best approach. As I mentioned above, it is like abusing the WP:BRD strategy. In my view, if you had questions and concerns about the orphan sentence on reparations, you should have asked instead of deleting it. You have no expertise in the area to have done so, but since you are a SYSOP the game changes. Admittedly, the sentence seemed out of place and had no apparent justification, but like many other parts of this article, it is in serious need of help and cutting it down would do more harm than good. More dedicated editors, with knowledge and interests, are needed here. Vital yet vulnerable articles like this one require administrators of a different kind.

In regards to your quibble with the way I paraphrased the Economist, if you read the article well, you will see that the magazine's main concern is with the problem of reparations involving deep history (relatively “deep,” actually). The writer introduces a series of staccato questions with this sentence: “Unpicking wrongs from 60 years ago is hard enough.” So, in light with the fact that others have actually done it (look below), it is ok to say that the Economist was “Attempting to sidestep the difficulty of evaluating the impact of the past in the present.” In other words, that is whow I understand what the Economist writer did. This is not to say that it is wrong or appropriate. It is just informing the reader that the Economist chose this route. The fact that it is quoted in this article shows the willingness to include its views.

The topic of reparations and how they should relate to Haiti (with its own particular history) it is already covered (though rather poorly maintained) in these other articles already:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_indemnity_controversy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti

The role it should play in this article is rather more modest and should have made reference to other articles expanding on the subject. The sentence you deleted should have linked the politics of the 2010 earthquake to the renewal for reparations' calls. For the press, the topic of reparations first became known when Aristide first voiced it in 2003, in the eve of the second centenary of the independence from France, but the movement had taken flight earlier. In Scholarship, it has an even longer history, always linked to the fact that Haiti is the only post-slavery nation that had to pay a humongous sum of money to “certified” its independence, a debt that it carried until the 1940s 1880s, crippling its economy and according to many scholars, ensuring it would never become truly independent. The inclusion of the topic here is not about being in favor or against the idea, but about describing how the topic has played an important role in the 21st-century politics in Haiti. As you implied, a quick Google search would show the numerous news reports and analysis covering the issue (which alone justifies the inclusion of the sentence you deleted). But even before journalists would have picked it up, the subject was in the politicians' tables and in the scholars’ writings. The bibliography is truly long, and it ranges from all sorts of publications and from many types of disciplines. Here is a short sample that attests to your question about the subject’s importance in the scholarship about Haiti. Let me draw your attention to the last two, which are historians in different sides of the fence. Yet, the inclusion of a short paragraph in this article should not be based on these sources alone. Rather, it should be supported also by the sources you discounted because it is a phenomenon that is taking place now in the political and social spheres.

• Lara, Oruno D. “In defense of reparations.” Black Renaissance. 2001 Jul 1;3(3):147.

• Jewsiewicki, Bogumil. "Héritages et réparations en quête d'une justice pour le passé ou le présent." (2004): 7-24.

• Biondi, Martha. "The rise of the reparations movement." Radical History Review 87, no. 1 (2003): 5-18.

• Thomas, Deborah A. "Caribbean Studies, Archive Building, and the Problem of Violence." Small Axe 17, no. 2 41 (2013): 27-42.

• Craemer, Thomas. "Estimating Slavery Reparations: Present Value Comparisons of Historical Multigenerational Reparations Policies." Social Science Quarterly 96, no. 2 (2015): 639-655.

• Beckles, Hilary McD. "“Slavery was a long, long time ago”: Remembrance, Reconciliation and the Reparations Discourse in the Caribbean." ARIEL: A Review of International English Literature 38, no. 1 (2007).

• Popkin, Jeremy D. (2011-11-28). A Concise History of the Haitian Revolution

Again, I can't justify the way the topic is currently in place in this article. But its presence should play a discreet role. And rather than picking the article apart, and squabbling about these issues, we prefer collaboration in making it stronger. Hopefully you are on our side Caballero//Historiador ^☊ 20:15, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

To imply that The Economist is attempting to "sidestep" by arguing that any aid should be targeted at the current needs of Haitians is not an impartial evaluation and smacks of bias. It is not your place to "inform" readers of Wikipedia about how you "understand" arguments made by publications, which violates Wikipedia policy regarding point of view.

I do not deny that reparations have been a political issue in Haiti for decades. However, information about this can be easily derived from published research and respectable academic sources. Start there. Until then, I am going to put a neutrality tag in the "21st Century" section. Thanks -(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 20:54, 27 October 2016 (UTC))

Did not notice your comment below mine until now (mine was a few months old already). It seems you missed part of the purpose and meaning of my contribution in this section. The sources I offered in bullets are all scholarly sources of the first kind. Regarding your comments about my thoughts on the article in the The Economist, keep in mind that assessing sources is a necessary and shared practice in article's talk pages. I have yet to evaluate the current suitability of the neutrality tag you added. Caballero/Historiador ^⎌ 19:44, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

If those sources are in fact scholarly, then feel free to integrate relevant content into the article. I would suggest rethinking the current structure, though, as the paragraph on reparations is not very well placed within the context of its section. Perhaps the topic of reparations should have its own section? Or maybe its own article?

Again, the way you have assessed the source is entirely opinionated and inappropriate. If you were to prove that The Economist was "sidestepping", you would need to provide a source that makes such an evaluation (e.g. The Economist wrote, "Any assistance to the region should be carefully targeted; and should surely stem from today's needs, not the wrongs of the past." Dr. Smith, a professor of Caribbean history at American University, has argued that The Economist attempted to "side step" the difficulty of evaluating the past and the present in its analysis.) On Wikipedia, we as editors do not include in articles our personal analysis of issues or sources (to quote you directly, we do not evaluate The Economist based on "how I understand what the Economist writer did"). We instead paraphrase and quote content from scholarly, peer-reviewed sources. --(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 20:49, 6 December 2016 (UTC))

@Wikipedian1234: I am with you in your first assertions, but your second paragraph seems misguided. I never proposed adding my views of The Economist in the mainspace. I was offering a review of some of the sources. The talk page, where I presented my thoughts, is not the main article. Here is where we discuss what to include or not, about what is the potential source missing or what position is representing. And I don't see The Economist as sacred, is not even a peer-review publication, but a platform for news and opinions, and as such, we have the need to evaluate its potential use for particular subjects. Furthermore, you seem to have misunderstood my criticism for an opinionated position. They are not the same. I will not venture passing judgments outside my area of expertise. Rather, I will always defer to others with competence when I am the layperson. Her last name, by the way, is not Dr. Smith, but Findlay. This excellent scholar specializes in the History of Gender in Puerto Rico, but not on Haiti. Caballero/Historiador ^⎌ 23:48, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

@Caballero1967: The thing is, you already have added your views to the mainspace in the following sentence and are not merely discussing this on the talk page (opinion in bold):

"Attempting to sidestep the difficulty of evaluating the impact of the past in the present, the Economist wrote, "Any assistance to the region should be carefully targeted; and should surely stem from today's needs, not the wrongs of the past."

Here, you have personally assessed the source as "sidestepping", which is once again inappropriate for reasons I have already mentioned (you need a source to back up that assessment. You cannot make it yourself, regardless of whether you believe your assessment to be correct). I don't see The Economist as sacred either, but it is not our place as editors to include our opinions of a source in the mainspace. If you do not believe that The Economist is an appropriate source for this section, then by all means find a better one. But please avoid including personal judgments of what you believe sources are attempting to do.

I am not sure what point you're trying to make about this entirely hypothetical "Mr. Smith" that I referred to purely in the interest of providing an example. I am well aware that Mr. Smith is not a real professor at American University; I was simply trying to lay out an example of a legitimate way to assess a source (i.e. by quoting/paraphrasing available scholarship). You may have misunderstood me. --(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 17:02, 10 December 2016 (UTC))

@Wikipedian1234: You are correct about the line in the article. I took it out (here) thanks to you. I may have interpreted your points as a continuation of a previous discussion over sources. And I must have written that line in the mainspace as if I was writing a review essay. Sorry and thanks. My reaction to your reference to "Dr. Smith" is another story. Caballero/Historiador ^⎌ 17:22, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

No problem. Glad I could help --(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 19:05, 10 December 2016 (UTC))

Looking at the figures, the USA put many times the amount mentioned in this reparations argument into Haiti for agricultural education and internal improvements. This was during the 1915-1934 occupation. So that can’t be it. Haiti may or may not be owed reparations by the French, but that is not why Haiti is poor. It can’t be. 12.201.7.2 (talk) 08:07, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

"Haitian unification"

The island was never willingly united politically, many people like to believe that Haitians helped free Dominicans from Spain but thats false. Santo Domingo was already independent from Spain months before Haiti invaded and occupied for personal imperial gain, not to actually help and unify the people like many believe, Haiti just wanted more control over more land. Secondly, the 2 were never same culturally, and people from Santo Domingo never seen themselves as Haitians. So this name is misleading, it should be called "Haitian occupation of Santo Domingo". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.143.199.165 (talk) 17:49, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Economy

Why is the place such a poor, corrupt craphole after all these years? The article should address the causes of Haitian poverty and ignorance, and why no country in the Western Hemisphere is worse. What is the root cause of this? 12.201.7.2 (talk) 08:01, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

American imposed neoliberal rightism. It is the most privatized country in the world. This is what the Republican party wants America to look like.2601:140:8980:106F:5821:5CC:4C36:D4CF (talk) 02:23, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 April 2019

I would like to add the following changes to the text concerning the section on the Haitian penitentiary system:

Haiti currently has seventeen establishments across the country. While the official capacity of the prison system is 2,431 as noted in 2015, the most current population total as of 2016 is 10,538 . Port-au-Prince penitentiary is home to half of these prisoners.

Therefore, 80% are not convicted [195]. Of those 80%, a majority are poor and thereby subject to “prolonged and arbitrary pretrial detention”, denial of a fair public trial, and a lack of defense counsel because they cannot afford to pay their way out of prison . A poor individual who is “being held in illegal pretrial detention for a year” can quickly turn into him/her being held for six .

Families may send food to the penitentiary; however, most inmates depend on the meals served twice a day. Irregular transportation of foodstuffs makes the distribution of meals erratic, however, and because of prison budgets, rations are often heavily cut, and food is not always available .

Fewer than one-hundred beds in the facility are usually provided. The inmates, without a bed, are forced to create makeshift hammocks from the wall and ceilings, or standing which in some cases, has led them to develop edema of the lower extremities . ZyLatt (talk) 15:27, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Izno (talk) 00:25, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 1 June 2019

Hello,

I would to request an information update in the "Culture" section under "Sports". Mateo Philippe Coles, an equestrian, participated in the 2018 Youth Olympics in Buenos Aires. He was part of the North America Team which won the Gold Medal for "Jumping International Team Jump-Off". Can you add this information to the "Sports" section?

Here is a link for you to see the results of the 2018 Youth Olympic Games: https://www.olympicchannel.com/en/youth-olympic-games-2018/results/

Here is a reference article sharing his success: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fort-lauderdale/fl-cn-sp-fort-lauderdale-equestrian-mateo-coles-20181107-story.html Spirit0604 (talk) 19:33, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: The Sports section is for a broad overview of sports in Haiti. The achievements of a single athlete is not suitable for inclusion in this section. NiciVampireHeart 20:52, 3 June 2019 (UTC)