Talk:Flag of the Republic of China/Archive 1

Archive 1

older entries

Sun Yet-sen died in 1925 hence he would not design the flag in 1928. It should be 1906.--Formulax 01:30 19 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I guess we'll be seeing the chinese government blocking wikipedia again.

I have to say though, its just a flag, Is it really something relevent enough to get listed as a featured artical? It seems like there is no corelation between relevence of a topic and the length of an artical

I hate to break it to you, but a pokemon (bulbasaur I think) was featured... that's right a pokemon... the cartoon character...Jackchen123 (talk) 09:21, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Given that it's a major political issue in one of the world's major political hotspots, it seems pretty relevant to me. We have long articles about other politically-important flags as well, such as the Confederate flag. --Delirium 07:00, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, and what exactally is meant by relevent? (sic) relevant to what? Any well written article with enough substance may be of interest and Wikipedia is a broad enough church of knowledge to allow a diverse range of subjects to appear. If you feel there are aticles not yet worthy in their length in relation to their subject, the beauty of Wikipedia is that you can expand on it. Dainamo 11:08, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm not saying there shouldn't be an artical on the flag, Im just thinking it would make more sence to put the aricatical about the republic of china on the front page. If someone is interested in the flag in praticular they can click the link to the artical about the flag from their. I Know that with an online encyclipedia you don't have to worry about saving paper. I was simply observing that obscure topics can be often have quite a lot writen on them. Anyway I wasn't trying to complain if it appeared as such. --64.160.183.8 01:33, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You are welcome to share your view, but in my oppionion the point of a featured article is to say "Hey look at this well written and interesting write-up. Let's try to have more like this" and it is not important whether it is about the origins of the universe or the fluff you find in your belly button. Dainamo 11:00, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sporting Flags

Hey yall, I just think we might need to reword the section of the Chinese Taipei Olympic flag, and also include the flag Chinese Taipei usses for FIFA events. Zscout370 01:57, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

---

Removed:

Flying the flag of the ROC in mainland China is officially banned (although publication of the flag in a historical context is not forbidden), and, while flying the flag of the PRC in Taiwan is no longer officially banned, it would almost certainly bring a bad social reaction.

Both PRC and Taiwan press are publishing pictures of Lien Chan visiting the mainland with the ROC flag pretty visible in the background.

Roadrunner 13:52, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Extra flags

Hi all,

I was watching the West Wing and it looks like some of the flags are missing. I found them there: Taiwan_independence#Significance. I don't think I know enough about China and Taiwan to write it though.

Tony 02:15, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Correct colours?

The colours on the SVG flag are listed as such on vexillia-mundi.com. Is there a source which contradicts this? —Gabbe 13:24, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

the colors at vexilla-mundi.com dont look right. see the government: [1], and if you go to anywhere in Taiwan, you will see that the government website version is the correct one. i tried telling whoever made the image but was ignored.--Jiang 13:30, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

'Mandatory' Scout participation

The reason I placed the "citation needed" marker is because Scout associations _may_not_ be mandatory, else they will lose their World recognition. Several countries have lost their membership due to that. Apparently Gerakan Pramuka in Indonesia started off nationalist and mandatory, and absorbed an earlier Scout association. Chris 05:10, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Three flags with fish picture

The slogan on the picture says "Long live the Republic" and not "Long live the harmony of the five races under the Republic" (or whatever).

As in, the slogan doesn't seem to mention the five races. Can someone verify this?

Thanks --Sumple 11:16, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, whoever wrote that caption can't read Chinese obviously. 共和 means Union (usually of political nature) or Republic, there is no implication of "Union of races....". Best translation would just be "Union," as implied by the 3 different flags, that it was a union. Naus 21:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Name of the flag

The flag's name is 青天白日滿地紅, that means GREEN sky white sun red earth, but why you people let the English translation be "BLUE sky white sun red earth"!!?? Another thing, since the square is BLUE, why is the name “青天”(Green sky)!?--Edmundkh 16:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

青 in the context of 青天 means "clear," not "green." 青 could coloqially mean lime green, but used in the context of the ROC flag, it bares a similar meaning with the "清" and "清朝". The English translation should therefore technically be "Clear Sky," and not "Blue Sky." But perhaps, "Blue Sky" could just be a convention.--Ruthless4Life 02:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

But what does it have to do with Qing Dinasty!?--Edmundkh 10:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm just saying 青 and 清 have similar meanings as "clear" and "pure".--Ruthless4Life 11:00, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Haha... actually I really wonder whether the flag designer was a colour blind who sees blue as green... :-P--Edmundkh 16:10, 9 December 2006 (UTC) Perhaps the original design was greenish blue or bluish green, then someone who thought it was blue kept thinking it was blue, then it eventually become dark blue! --Edmundkh 04:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Edmundkh, see Distinguishing blue from green in language. 青 in this context means "blue". Also consider the idiom 青出於藍, the story of which is that indigo dye (靛青) is produced from the true indigo plant (藍草 or 木藍). In that context, 藍 is greener than 青! So the use of 青 here to describe the deep blue of the flag is totally appropriate. Kelvinc 07:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

FA without inline citations??

I am surprised this article is still featured. Criterion 1(c) calls for a references section "in which sources are set out, complemented by inline citations for quotations and for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged." nadav 14:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Added POV section tag

I've added the tag for the final paragraph in the introduction. It seems to me that this takes a pro-PRC stance by describing so-called important context that seems to be more of a delegitimization of the ROC government. Can anyone address my concerns, I am just a dilettante in PRC and ROC relations and claim no great authority on the matter. --BHC (talk) 09:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

That paragraph is obviously important. It is also poorly worded and possibly POV. Someone who does know this should take a crack at fixing it. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

What about the green flag?

There seems to be yet another flag in green: http://www.taiwandc.org/flags.htm what about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.128.39.136 (talk) 22:24, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

That would go under proposed flag of Taiwan because it is not an official national flag, but a proposed flag by Taiwan independentists. Kelvinc (talk) 09:00, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Sky blue color

青天、白日、滿地紅 , the previous translation Blue sky, strictly speaking is a translation error. The correct translation is 'Clear Sky'. When the sky is clear, its color is blue, which is the origin of the blue color of the national flag. And 青 has been used in Chinese language in many different ways other than color. Foe example 青年(youth), 青絲(young-looking hair, in contrast to grey hair), 青史 (history in sense of record for posterity;), 垂青(loving consideration), 殺青 (of book manuscript, film production) completed; orig. preparation of bamboo strip for writing by heating process. 青銅 (bronze), 瀝青(pitch, asphalt). These examples should clearify the role of 青 in Chinese everyday culture. 青天 [qing1tian1], n., (1) the clear, blue sky: 青天白日 in broad daylight; (2) as symbol of justice: 重見青天 regain freedom, freed from prison; formerly, address to judge: 青天大人 Chinese-English Dictionary of Modern UsageArilang1234 (talk) 08:41, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The main reason why we used blue sky is this is what the Government of the ROC puts on their websites. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 16:00, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

User Zscout370, the official ROC website is wrong. In everyday Chinese use, 藍天 is the correct word to use when referring to Blue Sky. 在藍天下唱歌, we sing under the Blue Sky. 在青天下唱歌 is a no no. No one ever use it. Like I said before, 青天 refers to spirit of freedom, justice, not color.Arilang1234 (talk) 22:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

User Zscourt370, Naval Jack of the Republic of China.svg is too dark, can you change it into a lighter blue please?Arilang1234 (talk) 22:41, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Hang on. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 23:21, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Images

this image could be a nice addition to this article. ☺ Spiby ☻ 10:28, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Lingustics box..

Y do ppl keep deleting it? Its small, collapsable and classifies the transliterations used... If u dont want to see it on top (I favour putting the linguistics box on top, due to its small size and collapsability, move it bellow the flag infobox)... Im trying to reach a consensus about the position of the linguistics infobox in any china-related article... cya Gumuhua (talk) 15:08, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

All of the information in the infobox was contained in the text of the article, and made more sense that way. The article is already heavy on infoboxes and images, we don't need more. //roux   15:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

There was problems displaying the box as what Roux said, and the previous pages had both the box and the templates. I feel the templates in the text is easier and this is what was done on other articles. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 20:03, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

简体字？

Since this is an article about the ROC, which officially uses traditional characters, is there any particular reason why simplified characters are given first and traditional characters second? It seems rather provocative that simplified characters are given precedence.

203.169.48.225 (talk) 05:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Meaning of the colors

According to the meaning of the colors, they come from or are related to the Flag of France and the French motto Liberté, égalité, fraternité ? --190.71.16.215 (talk) 10:06, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

It was removed as original research. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 13:30, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Whether the flag of Republic of China should be removed ?

This article should match zh-edition unless Chinese edition change. And this article is not relevant about historical flag problem, the part of the flag of Republic of China should not be removed until Chinese edition change.David30930 (talk) 17:16, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

This is not about historical flag of Taiwan

To user:WikiLaurent, in English edition of Flag of Taiwan, Whether the Flag of the Republic of China section should be removed is needed to discuss here.

1. The article of flag of Taiwan is NOT talking about historical flag of Taiwan. It talks about all flags about Taiwan during all history period, including historical and current.

2. In zh-edition of Flag of Taiwan(台灣國旗), it includes Flag of the Republic of China section, which can prove the part of Flag of the Republic of China inside this article is correct and suitable after a lot of discussion to make content fair and reliable.David30930 (talk) 14:23, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I seen no edits even wanting to remove this article, so I am very confused. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 16:37, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I think David is talking about Flag of Taiwan (disambiguation). I removed the Republic of China flag from the "Historical flag" section because it's not historical since it's the current flag of Taiwan. Laurent (talk) 16:55, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Ok. I agree with the removal of the flag from the historical gallery. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 17:28, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

RfD

An IP user attempted at starting WP:RFD process for this redirect. If there still is a will to do that, please follow these instructions. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 12:55, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Move request

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved, no consensus to move, and Jiang's sourcing. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:49, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

---

Flag of the Republic of China → Flag of Taiwan – Taiwan is the common name of this country, and the current flag has been the flag of this country since 1928. The recent move request decision provides that we should all stick with the common name principle, and there is no recentism issue at all. If we look at other countries, the articles are located at Flag of France or Flag of Australia, not Flag of the French Republic or Flag of the Commonwealth of Australia. 1.65.211.83 (talk) 18:30, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• oppose There is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_flag_of_Taiwan and people will assume. Plus, even the state calls themselves Republic of China. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 18:23, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. "Flag of Taiwan" rightly redirects here already, but as an ambiguous term, does not belong as the article title. This particular flag pre-dates the move of the government to Taiwan in 1949 and is seen as a Chinese flag by the independence movement. It would only have been referred to as the "Flag of Taiwan" by a minority of English language commentators since the 1970s. Google Books give me 815 results for "Flag of Taiwan" and 21,000 results for "Flag of the Republic of China"; likewise, Google Scholar gives me 36 results for the former and 119 results for the latter; and a Google internet search gives me 1,190,000 for "Flag of Taiwan" and 10,800,000 for "flag of the Republic of China." In both reliable sources and general sources, "Flag of Taiwan" is not more common than "Flag of the Republic of China". In fact the opposite seems to be true.--Jiang (talk) 19:40, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
• Question: Is there any precedence for any flag article to have a different title from the country article? Jeffrey (talk) 21:31, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
  • For Historical flags, they are usually merged into the article of the present country (see East Germany and Socialist Yugoslavia). I know the Dutch flag article is at "Flag of the Kingdom of the Netherlands" and the only one uses the formal name. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 19:51, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• Technically speaking Netherlands is one of the three constituent countries of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. They are two concepts but they share the same flag. It's more correct to name the article for its flag with its present title. I don't think that's comparable here. Jeffrey (talk) 20:13, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• Move to Flag of the Republic of China (Taiwan), as the official press agency calls it here. Allflags says, "Flag of the Republic of China - Taiwan". Here is a press release by the Taiwanese embassy in Washington. Kauffner (talk) 00:00, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

  Just because government agencies use a particular form (and not even consistently) is not reason for us to do the same.--Jiang (talk) 07:31, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

  That's interesting, but I don't think that the title National Flag is an option for us. It is like National Hockey League. The name creates deliberate ambiguity as which nation it is national for. But either way, it's not just another nation, that's for sure. Whatever its official status, putting "Taiwan" in the title helps clarify things for those unsure as to which country the "Republic of China" might be. I know how hard it can be to convince Chinese that they do not live in the Republic of China. Kauffner (talk) 08:08, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

  That should be the job of hatnotes, redirects, and article text. Flag of Taiwan already redirects here. If the article text doesn't succeed in clarifying this further, then edit the article text. --Jiang (talk) 09:13, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• I have already stated above that the case of the Kingdom of the Netherlands isn't comparable. Jeffrey (talk) 18:35, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose this is also the flag of "China 1911-1949" (1928-1949). 70.24.244.198 (talk) 03:58, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support. The same issues around Vice President of the Republic of China don't exist. There is no list. The pre-1949 materials are just historical background. Jeffrey (talk) 14:38, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• The same issues around moving Republic of China to Taiwan don't exist either. In that situation, both existed as separate articles and people went to Taiwan expecting to find a countries template and didn't find one, so the setup had the potential to confuse more than it enlightened. Here, Flag of Taiwan redirects here while Flag of Taiwan (disambiguation) separately exists; those looking for the "Flag of Taiwan" will be directed to the right place, so as long as we explain that the "Flag of the Republic of China" may sometimes be referred to as the "Flag of Taiwan" there is no room for confusion. The pre-1949 materials aren't just historical background; a major point of view (the PRC's) is that this flag ceased to be a national flag in 1949 and is a purely historical flag. Another major point of view (the independence view) is that this flag is a Chinese flag that has been imposed on Taiwan by an exiled regime and needs to be replaced. The justifications of renaming are significantly outweighed here.--Jiang (talk) 18:05, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
  • The same is true for the name of the country. A major point of view is that the island is under foreign occupation by the ROC and hasn't yet achieved its own independence from the ROC. This view has already been ignored and considered to be fringe in the previous RM discussion. Jeffrey (talk) 10:19, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• If the redirect and disambiguation arrangement applies, why didn't we redirect Taiwan to Republic of China, with a hatnote to the island article under Taiwan (island) and to Taiwan (disambiguation)? Jeffrey (talk) 10:21, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• Because Republic of China will exist as an article separate from Taiwan, per part of the move request and decision that has yet to be implemented. Many references to "Republic of China" have nothing to do with Taiwan, so the two exist as separate concepts and deserve separate articles. If they are separate articles, then there can't be a redirect to overcome the WP:COMMONNAME rationale. Please don't disrupt Wikipedia to make a point; if you think the Taiwan move proposal was decided wrongly, it is counterproductive for you to purposely "vote" against your own judgment on other pages to make that point.--Jiang (talk) 18:07, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• I'm not voting against my own judgement. I just prefer consistency in this particular case. I just cannot think of any country which current official name got a separate article. Jeffrey (talk) 18:29, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• see my response to BDD immediately below this. Further, consistency alone does not trump common name or other considerations such as precision.--Jiang (talk) 22:16, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support simply because the political entity associated with the flag is at Taiwan. If you don't want the flag article to move along with its parent country, why is this a special case? Are there other cases where "Flag of" articles have different names than their corresponding country? If so, perhaps there's a precedent for this. Otherwise, my vote stands. --BDD (talk) 20:00, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Consistency across articles is not a requirement of Wikipedia, nor is it a logical conclusion to draw in this case. As I stated in Talk:Vice President of the Republic of China, there is no formula where you insert {position}+{common name} to spit out the article title. Instead you look at reliable sources on a case-by-case basis. Here, the name "Flag of Taiwan" is ambiguous while the name "Flag of the Republic of China" is not. A counter-example to the precedent you cite is Flag of the Kingdom of the Netherlands: the country template is placed at Netherlands while Kingdom of the Netherlands is about the larger political entity. In fact, we explicitly named Kingdom of the Netherlands as a model for the new Republic of China article in the recently successful move proposal.--Jiang (talk) 20:36, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
• The political entity might be at Taiwan, but it is not Taiwan. Taiwan is merely a small part of the whole country, even if it is the biggest part which is under the government control in the Republic of China (while mainland China is under 'rebel occupation'). Pinut (talk) 22:42, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support, the flag is currently the national flag of Taiwan. The fact it was also used for China from 1911-1949 doesn't change its current state, otherwise we'd have some pretty awful fights over the name of the Union Flag, given how diversely it's been used. The possible future flag of Taiwan also doesn't change the situation and is analogous to ongoing debate in Australia about whether to change the Flag of Australia to the Commonwealth Star or Eureka Flag. The current article title is a descriptive title under WP:NDESC, and as such WP:COMMONNAME doesn't apply to the title as a whole, but can be applied to its constituent parts (eg. the common name of the country is Taiwan, and it should be used in this title).

I respectfully disagree with Jiang regarding consistency, our naming criteria policy lists it as one of the five key points to strive for in article name decisions. Of the five points, the proposed title satisfies four to a better degree than the current title: recognisability, naturalness, concision and consistency. This move will be consistent with the country article at Taiwan, and historical usage of the flag can absolutely be expanded on in the article body itself, as is usual. – NULL ‹talk›
‹edits› 23:42, 2 April 2012 (UTC) (updated 06:26, 3 April 2012 (UTC))

• I don't see how your argument is different from "Rename anything with 'Republic of China' in the title to 'Taiwan' because that would be the consistent thing to do." Why move this article but not Vice President of the Republic of China? Can you distinguish the rationale? I don't get it. Along with "consistency" WP:NAMINGCRITERIA states "precision" as another goal above it, and "flag of the Republic of China" is unambiguous, while "flag of Taiwan" is ambiguous. The Google Books results above (815 vs 21 000) can speak for themselves. As an aside, while "Taiwan" is often used to refer to the political entity in Chinese, "flag of Taiwan" is almost never used in Chinese because such a term would be highly ambiguous.--Jiang (talk) 01:25, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• First, the Google Books results are actually 105 vs 409 once you actually progress through all of the results and get the correct number at the end. The argument is different from what you described because what you described is implying consistency is the only argument in WP:AT. It's not, it's one of five points that each should be weighed. In my view, 'Flag of Taiwan' satisfies four of the criteria in a better way than 'Flag of the Republic of China', namely recognisability, naturalness, concision and consistency. Your argument above, however, seemed to suggest that consistency isn't a factor at all, and I responded directly to that. Now, on the Google results again, WP:COMMONNAME applies to actual names, but 'flag of the Republic of China' isn't the actual name of the flag of the Republic of China (note in the majority of sources 'flag' is written in lowercase, the mark of a common term, not a proper name), it's a non-judgemental descriptive title. Descriptive titles are 'often invented specifically for articles', freeing them from the typical pressure of WP:COMMONNAME, but says 'non-neutral but common names may be used within a descriptive title'. In this instance, the descriptive title is made as follows: 'Flag of <country>'. In substituting <country>, it's perfectly reasonable for us to use the common name of the country, and the name implied by consistency, here. The situation differs from that of the Vice President of the Republic of China in that 'Vice President of the Republic of China' is a proper name, not a descriptive title, and is fully subject to WP:COMMONNAME. – NULL ‹talk›
  ‹edits› 03:24, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• I also question the benefit this move would bring about. The whole rationale of the move from Republic of China to Taiwan was based on WP:COMMONNAME. Here you are asking us to defy the conventions used in the majority of reliable sources to satisfy some sort of consistency based on a magic formula that every country's flag must be titled "flag of {common name}". In that case the Union Flag should cease to exist as it doesn't follow this formula either. Titling policy is based on the entire article title, not its constituent parts. Otherwise, we might as well have declared in the Taiwan move proposal to rename every mention of "Republic of China" to "Taiwan" in the present tense, which we explicitly declined to do, instead of bothering to treat each article separately. (note what Jpech95, who initiated the Taiwan move proposal, said.) --Jiang (talk) 01:43, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Just re-stating for the WP:COMMONNAME argument, it doesn't apply to descriptive titles as described under WP:NDESC, and 'Flag of the Republic of China' (seen with lowercase 'flag' in the majority of sources) is a descriptive title, not a title based on a proper name. That breaks down the common name to its constituent parts, not the title as a whole. – NULL ‹talk›
  ‹edits› 03:24, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• I'll respond to both bullet points here. First, I'm not sure how you got 105 vs 409, but even then, a 1 to 4 ratio is enough to convince that "flag of the Republic of China" is preferred by reliable sources. Why do you think this is so? I asked, what benefit would this move would bring about? What is it that justifies renaming the article title to something that is ambiguous and not-neutral and runs counter to the particular words preferred by reliable sources? I see no rationale other than to force some sort of internal consistency on Wikipedia, to which I have already found exception to above, to use the less precise, less clear, and less accurate title.
• Second, I disagree that this is a purely "descriptive title". The "flag of the Republic of China" refers to a particular symbol and object. It is a stand-alone concept whose component words cannot be removed without the subject becoming meaningless. The phrase cannot have been "invented" as a purely descriptive title would be to cover a particular topic as a refers squarely to something tangible, i.e. a symbol. Examples of a descriptive titles would be "Historical flags of the Republic of China" or "Use of the flag of the Republic of China at the Olympics". Capitalization does not solely determine whether a title is descriptive. A symbol is a thing, and a thing can be a proper noun. Would you ask that "free area of the Republic of China" be moved to "free area of Taiwan"?
• Third, article naming policy in addition to WP:COMMONNAME supports the current title. If (hypothetically thinking, since the sources linked above overwhelmingly suggest otherwise) "flag of Taiwan" were more common than "flag of the Republic of China", we would still favor "flag of the Republic of China" because Wikipedia avoids "colloquialisms where far more encyclopedic alternatives are obvious" and "ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject...even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." Here, "flag of Taiwan" is ambiguous because it can be used to refer to a future flag for the Republic of Taiwan. It is also not-neutral in that equates the Republic of China with the modern entity. While the move from Republic of China to Taiwan was done on the grounds at in referring to the existing entity, either of the alternatives carried political baggage, making NPOV irrelevant. Here, all the disputants to the political conflict agree to the title "Flag of the Republic of China" to refer to this particular symbol as being neutral, while a minority of English sources colloquially use the title "Flag of Taiwan" (a term rarely used in Chinese). --Jiang (talk) 04:11, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Regretfully I don't think this is going to be a productive discussion, in the same way our previous discussion on the applicability of WP:DUE was unproductive. The new title satisfies four of the five criteria at WP:NAMINGCRITERIA. It is a descriptive title under WP:NDESC because it is not the name of the subject, it is a description of the subject. As such WP:COMMONNAME doesn't apply to the title as a whole but can be applied to constituent parts (also described in NDESC). I don't believe it's ambiguous with the proposed future flag of Taiwan because the proposed future flag of Taiwan is not the current flag of Taiwan. Our article on the current flag of Australia is at Flag of Australia, regardless of the fact that there has been for years significant debate over changing that flag, particularly to examples like the Commonwealth Star or the Eureka Flag. The situation is directly analogous. – NULL ‹talk›
  ‹edits› 06:16, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• I disagree that this discussion is unproductive; we are fleshing out the application of existing policies, rather than throwing insults at each other. That is productive enough. I disagree that "Flag of the Republic of China" is purely a description. It can be a formal name because it refers to something specific and tangible - a specific symbol and design that has a particular meaning. It is a name of the particular rectangular symbol, not a description of it. "Flag of the Republic of China" is capitalized in this article and was capitalized as "National Flag of the Republic of China" when it appeared on the Main Page. (I'm not saying that it always has to be capitalized, but that it sometimes is capitalized is enough to suggest that this is not a mere description.) Flag of Australia is not directly applicable because the debates are over proposed replacements of the current flag, while the current flag is undisputably and unambiguously the "flag of Australia." This flag, however, is not undisputably or unambiguously recognized at present as the "flag of Taiwan." If you asked a DPP supporter, they could very well claim this flag to be a Chinese flag, and that the flag of Taiwan is the one they are waving here. "Flag of the Republic of China" on the other hand is unambiguous and undisputed as a name for this particular symbol.--Jiang (talk) 16:33, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• There's also an article named Flag of the United Kingdom, besides Union Flag. Jeffrey (talk) 10:19, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• The flag is not the national flag of Taiwan, it is the national flag of China, of which Taiwan is just a small part and province. The fact that most of the country is not under government control (as the ROC sees it) does not affect this. Pinut (talk) 22:42, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• I'm sorry Pinut, but in English common usage the name of the country is Taiwan (note this article is about the country, not the island or province), so the flag is the national flag of Taiwan in common English usage. The situation is no different to the Flag of Greece when the official name of Greece is actually the Hellenic Republic. Conflicting political views on who controls what aren't particularly relevant to this debate. – NULL ‹talk›
  ‹edits› 06:23, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• You know what? Greece and Hellas are the same thing. China and Taiwan are not. If Greece were divided in two, say Crete and the rest of Greece, since 1949 and both regimes claimed to be the real Greece, the flag of the Greek state on Crete still wouldn't be the flag of Crete. However, when/if ROC declares independence as Republic of Taiwan and gives up its territorial claims on mainland China, and still decides to keep the same flag, I will support a move. Pinut (talk) 21:38, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

• Strongest possible oppose' per Zscout and Jiang. This flag is imposed by a foreign regime onto Taiwan and its people. It isn't a flag of Taiwan. Revert the move of the country article from ROC to Taiwan. Our homeland Taiwan is not yet a country. It's a territory unlawfully occupied by the Republic of China. Its independence from this foreign occupier isn't yet achieved . 202.189.109.35 (talk) 09:22, 3 April 2012 (UTC)— 202.189.109.35 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Very weak oppose A flag is an official representation of the state, which is agreed is the Republic of China. This is countered by the fact that in almost all modern representations, the RoC, and the flag, are used by a variety of names, Taiwan, Chinese Taipei, etc. Let's leave it with the state. I'm not opposed to revisiting this issue later, or being swayed by facts instead of rhetoric. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Commenting to myself to add to my current line of thought - while the general country and concept is that the RoC is Taiwan, the RoC identity is very tied to the Kuomintang, and the flag contains specific KMT symbolism. Many viewpoints that identify the country as Taiwan reject the Kuomintang and their identifying symbols. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

• Oppose since it is the flag of the Republic of China. It is not the flag of the island of Taiwan. Pinut (talk) 16:47, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose. RoC is the official soi-disant name of the polity that uses the flag, and had been its name (under the same flag) for 20 years before it even got a hold of the Taiwan island. One even can see this flag in mainland museums dealing with the WWII (and earlier) history. Moreover, I've seen this flag flying all over Jinmen (Kinmen) Island, which, according to the locals, is located in the Fujian Province, Republic of China, and not in the Taiwan Province at all. :-) (Incidentally, if the PRC government decides that each province of the PRC needs a provincial flag [currently, provinces don't have flags, of course], they no doubt will design 30+ flags including one for the [so far theoretical] Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China, and that would be the flag better deserving the name "Flag of Taiwan". On the other hand, if the "Taiwan independence" movement somehow succeeds and officially renames the polity existing on the island, it no doubt will create a new flag for it as well.) Vmenkov (talk) 18:03, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Flag of Taiwan?

• Oppose because:

1. The flag was the flag of China from 1928-1949
2. The flag is not universally (or even widely) known as the "flag of Taiwan" in the context of modern Taiwan. That designation is shared with other flag proposals
3. The flag is used outside of Taiwan by overseas Chinese to represent particular political persuasions unrelated to Taiwan

—  AjaxSmack  01:01, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose -- I have been supporting moves from RoC to Taiwan on the basis that the present Taiwan and RoC (1911-48) are not precisely the same and lead to confusion between the mainland and island republics. However, in this case the use of the flag before 1948 means that the presnet title is appropriate. This is likely to be an unusual exception, because it straddles 1948. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:19, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: I hate to say this, but using 1949 as the break-over point is indeed too arbitrary. From the UN point of view that point is 1971, from the US point of view it's 1978, and from the electorate point of view it's perhaps 1996. If we use 1949 as the break-over point, this flag has been the flag of Taiwan for 63 years, and had only been the flag of China for 21 years. Jeffrey (talk) 18:32, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose The flag is for the state (a governing apparatus), not the country (a land area of a common people and common history). Republic of China is the state. Taiwan is the country. Calling this the "Flag of Taiwan" confuses the two. Readin (talk) 00:18, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:National Anthem of the Republic of China which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:28, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 3 December 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. The consensus is that the flag belongs to the country (ROC), not the island (Taiwan). The fact that the ROC is now commonly nicknamed Taiwan is considered inconsequential by most of the editors. (non-admin closure) Bradv 23:12, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

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Flag of the Republic of China → Flag of Taiwan – Because there's a dispute between Flag of China and the Flag of the People's Republic of China articles, I think this article should be renamed "Flag of Taiwan" since the name "Taiwan" was adopted in the 1970s after being called "China" when it had the UN seat. Discussions welcome. 135.23.144.153 (talk) 22:57, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Oppose move. Nothing has changed since the last RM.  ONR  (talk)  00:55, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose move. We should not allow more confusions between polity "Republic of China" and geographical entity "Taiwan (island)". --Matt Smith (talk) 01:21, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose move same as above In ictu oculi (talk) 08:22, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
• support. In reply to the above points, “nothing has changed" is neither a good reason nor accurate: facts and consensus can change and the main article itself was moved, in line with our naming conventions. As per that article there is no confusion, the place is overwhelmingly known as Taiwan: see e.g. the recent coverage of the call between Donald Trump and Tsai Ing-wen. The current name, Flag of the Republic of China, is far more confusing as the formal name Republic of China is far less well known today, and is easily confused with the similar People’s Republic of China.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 08:26, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

See, everyone. We just got one more confused editor at here. One who is saying something like "the place is overwhelmingly known as Taiwan" shows that he/she is being misled by the article title "Taiwan" into believing that the article is for geographical entity Taiwan (island).

The fact is that article Taiwan is for political entity the Republic of China, not for geographical entity Taiwan (island). Now you again see why it is so confusing. --Matt Smith (talk) 09:44, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

I am not confused. The common name for the country and political entity is Taiwan, so the common name for its flag is (the) flag of Taiwan. The overwhelming usage is to treat Taiwan the country and Taiwan the island as the same thing.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 14:01, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

I haven't heard of any usage which aims to treat the political entity and the geographical entity as th same thing. --Matt Smith (talk) 14:20, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

As I type the lead headline at nytimes.com is “Trump Thrusts Taiwan Back on Table, Rattling a Region”, referring to the political entity (just below it refers to ”Taiwan’s president” and “Taiwan Leader”, confirming it is referring to it politically if any confirmation is needed). Overwhelmingly people use Taiwan now to refer to the state in almost any context. It is also used less often to refer to it geographically, e.g. as a destination. And most people treat them as the same entity – few people are aware of the bits of Taiwan that are not on the island.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 15:04, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not denying that many are nicknaming the ROC as "Taiwan" (although I'm against such a nicknaming). My point is that the ROC being nicknamed as "Taiwan" does not mean the ROC and the geographical entity Taiwan (island) is one thing. --Matt Smith (talk) 15:21, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose move. That country isn't called Taiwan now. And the redirect page "Flag of Taiwan" already exists, so it's enough. If ROC changed its formal name to Taiwan, I'll support moving then. So does PRC.--逆襲的天邪鬼 (talk) 15:01, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose move Whether Republic of China and Taiwan are the same thing today has no bearing on this topic. The flag has a history of almost 3 decades before it was even used in Taiwan. Even today its use isn't limited to Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu. Per article: "the flag has become a symbol of continuity with the ideals of the Chinese nationalism and Chinese reunification movements, and has become a symbol of a connection both historical and current with mainland China... Some Chinese see the flag as an expression of Chinese nationalism and pride combined with simultaneous disapproval for the current communist regime. Additionally, the flag may symbolize identification with, and admiration for the political thoughts of Sun Yat-sen, and his Three Principles of the People." Moving this page is nothing short of a slap in the face to the global Chinese diaspora who identify with Republic of China (1912–49) but not Taiwan, as well as the tens of millions of Chinese people who died fighting for this flag or its ideal during the Xinhai Revolution, Northern Expedition, Chinese Civil War, Second Sino-Japanese War, and Chinese Communist Revolution. Lu Haodong who was executed by the Qing dynasty regime will roll over in his grave if this were to go through. Timmyshin (talk) 21:22, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose move Flags belong to political entities. There are multiple competing entities for "China", both historically and even at present. In cases such as these, it helps to be precise. This flag was historically the flag of the ROC. Today the flag belongs to the ROC which still claims to be the government for all of China (although it has defacto control only over Taiwan). --Lemongirl942 (talk) 08:25, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose even if Taiwan is not moved to Republic of China, the common name is the flag of the ROC, the flag of "Taiwan" can refer to the flag of "Chinese Taipei" and the independence supporter flags etc. The ROC is also not just Taiwan, people seem to forget about Quemoy and Matsu as they are technically not part of Taiwan the island. - CHAMPION ^{(talk) (contributions) (logs)} 05:57, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• I'm against the ideal of redirecting "XXX of the Republic of China" to "XXX of Taiwan". Currently, Republic of China being redirected to Taiwan is already confusing and misleading because that makes readers and many Wikipedia editors confuse polity "Republic of China" with geographical entity "Taiwan (island)". "Taiwan" has never been the formal abbreviation of the Republic of China, and the Republic of China has never regarded itself as Taiwan. --Matt Smith (talk) 00:35, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
• It should be noted that there is a RM on Flag of China that would move it to Flag of the People's Republic of China, but it seems likely to fail.  ONR  (talk)  00:55, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
• Both of Taiwan's English language dailies consistently call this the "ROC flag." See "Two arrested for burning ROC flag" in Taipei Times and "ROC flag rises at Washington estate" in China Post. The two flag burners who were arrested are pro-independence protesters, so it would be confusing to call it a "Taiwanese flag" in this context. Pandas and people (talk) 12:53, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
• Also, during the 1950s and 1960s, the country isn't called "Taiwan" at the time. A context here reads "Posters of U.S. President Dwight D Eisenhower on buildings during his visit to China" although the ROC was commonly known as "China" during that period. 135.23.144.153 (talk) 16:40, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Is the ROC flag banned anywhere?

Although the PRC could use the flag of the ROC in occasional basis, seems to me that Cambodia banned the flag of the ROC by Hun Sen last weekend. Are there any countries that banned the flag of the ROC due to the One-China policy? 2607:FEA8:61F:F0AB:2137:266C:1A2F:4BCD (talk) 00:39, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Merge discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Not merged. I am closing this per WP:SNOW, as there is almost unanimous opposition and no valid reason has been given for the proposal. (non-admin closure) Laurdecl ^talk 12:36, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

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Request received to merge articles: Flag of the Republic of China into Flag of China; (February 2017). Since there are Two Chinas, why not combine the flag of the Republic of China into one the same way as the Flag of Syria? 135.23.144.238 (talk) 04:19, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''', *'''Oppose''' or *'''Comment''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• oppose. Certainly not. No valid rationale for merging given, and there are two distinct flags, two distinct countries. Merging makes no sense at all.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 06:54, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
• Support. If the arrangement made in Flag of Syria has been appropriate, I don't see why the same arrangement cannot be made in Flag of China. --Matt Smith (talk) 07:17, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose No way. There could probably be made a case for expanding the Flag of China article with a short historical section about flags of China before 1949, but to merge the whole article here into that article does not make sense to me. Besides: Where would that leave people looking for the Flag of Taiwan? Also: China and Taiwan have de facto been two separate states for almost 70 years, rather different from civil war-ridden Syria. Let us be thankful for that. --T*U (talk) 11:40, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
  • See Matt's comment above, Taiwan has a weird history before the Chinese came along. They had two unique flags separate from other foreign powers such as the Kingdom of Tungning and the Republic of Formosa. After all, the island IS self-governing. 135.23.144.238 (talk) 15:07, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. Assuming Taiwan is part of China, or even part of the People's Republic of China, then it is a province or state. Many provinces and states have their own flags with separate articles, such as Flag of Tennessee, Flag of Victoria and Flag of Hong Kong. The Flag of the Republic of China is more than notable enough to have a separate article. Jack N. Stock (talk) 23:20, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose These two articles are much better developed than the Syrian article. If the Syrian articles grows it will be split too. Merging these makes no sense. CMD (talk) 02:16, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose as they are separate topics. Deryck C. 18:44, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose The Republic of China is a separate country from the People's Republic of China; so like other countries, it should have a separate page. [User:T-Esperantist93|talk]] (talk) 21:46, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. Unlike Syria, Taiwan and China are not in a state of war right now. Also the two are separate countries anyway. The merger would only be justified when China and Taiwan merge as a single state. See Flag of Yemen. C-GAUN (talk) 00:46, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
• Snowball Oppose per arguments of JohnBlackburne, Jack N. Stock and Deryck. Also, these two flags have completely different meanings. Plus, this flag alone got too much attention from the Chou Tzu-yu incident. Tibbydibby (talk) 22:32, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose Although the PRC and the ROC technically share the name "China", they are in reality completely different political entities, especially after nearly 70 years of separation. This would include their flags as well, which represent their own distinct and unique meanings. - Bokmanrocks01 (talk) 02:37, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Additional discussions

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Discussion invite

Hello. I invite you to join a centralized discussion about naming issues related to China and Taiwan. Szqecs (talk) 14:20, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

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