Talk:Eastern brown snake

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I have heavily editted this page as it was riddled with sensationalist falacies that only demonised the already loathed Eastern Brown Snake. I have replaced this "information" with factual, published data. Jonno from ERD 07:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Centralized discussion started on mouse study disclaimer

I've started a discussion—at the WikiProject level, since the issue involves multiple articles—about the disclaimer text that keeps getting added about mouse studies not necessarily applying to venom toxicity in humans. It's at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Amphibians and Reptiles#Snakes, relative venom strength, and LD50. —C.Fred (talk) 22:19, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

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I think it is now understood that all large venomous snakes in Australia are descended from the Asian common cobra, except for the longer resident adders. The cobra presence on the island of New Guinea helps to prove it. All these snakes to some extent flair their necks, like the cobra, when confronted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.220.104.163 (talk) 09:26, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

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Links to check

Like this Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:50, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Oops. Sorry, I didn't notice this referred to the same paper I linked below. William Avery (talk) 20:42, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Aggressive or defensive?

There was a not particularly satisfactory edit made here.

The paper mentioned can be found at https://www.researchgate.net/publication/248883471_Responses_of_free-ranging_brownsnakes_Pseudonaja_textilis_Elapidae_to_encounters_with_humans

I won't make any more edits at the moment, but will just observe that their usually fleeing human beings, doesn't rule out the possibility that they can be highly aggressive. The ~3%(?) of encounters that could be characterised thus would undoubtedly be more memorable to the average observer than the other 97%. William Avery (talk) 19:54, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

This is an important article to get right as it is the most dangerous snake in Oz. I am buffing it now, so GA or FA will act as a Stable Version. (dang, snake articles cop a lot of edits!) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:46, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

60 % Fatalities claim

I followed the link to the referenced source for the claim that the Eastern Brown is responsible for 60 % of snake bite deaths in Australia, but I can not find this in the source document. RAM (talk) 14:38, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

I agree, this claim is suspect. The article List of fatal snake bites in Australia does not seem to come even close. MFdeS (talk) 05:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, thus removed. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 06:48, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Treatment subsection

So no need for emergency assistance then? Hospital unnecessary? There is no mention of either here, in this, the most directly applicable section, yet it is strongly advised. Further, there is an antivenom. Again, no mention. Boscaswell talk 01:40, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Description

“Most specimens have a typical total length (including tail) up to 1.5 m (4.9 ft” This makes no sense. If there is a typical length it should be within a stated range, not “up to” a specific figure, yes? Boscaswell talk 01:42, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Good point. will change Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:25, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Bookmark

• this Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:59, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

to make rangemap from

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:57, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Eastern brown snake/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Opabinia regalis (talk · contribs) 07:15, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Well done overall! I took a bunch of notes but they're mostly prose/clarity issues (and one image question).

• There are two different spellings in the taxonomy section of Demansia/Diemansia - were both used or is this a typo? Is Diemenia different from the preceding two?

Yes - one sees all three spellings (confusing I know, luckily none apply now :)) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:10, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

• The taxonomic history is a little confusing, and I'm not sure if that's because of the writing or because it really is confusing. It was moved to Pseudonaja twice - once by Krefft, and then out by Gunther, and then later back in by Worrell?

So yes, Krefft goes with Pseudonaja but then afterwards Demansia is generally used. I suspect this is because Diemenia was already used as a bug genus in 1850. There must be something documenting this change but I have not found it. Then it is generally Demansia textilis until Worrell splits it with this paper. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:45, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

• Since the taxonomy section makes a point of the confusion that resulted from describing juveniles and adults as separate species, do we have any pictures of juveniles available?

Not on commons, nor with the appropriate licence on flickr. There are some that are all rights reserved so I'll try and ask and see if anyone is prepared to donate any Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:56, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

• "Within the genus Pseudonaja, the eastern brown snake is unique in having a diploid pattern of 38 chromosomes" - is it the diploid pattern or the 38 chromosomes that's unique? (Presumably the latter? How many do the others have?)

The other species have 30 to 36 (from the same paper). I rejigged it Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:17, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

• In the description section, the short sentence "It has a dark tongue" is kind of awkwardly placed, and isn't too clear on whether that means all eastern brown snakes, or just the dark ones in eastern Papua New Guinea from the previous sentence. On further reading: there's a lot of sentences and clauses that start with "it"; maybe this is an ENGVAR thing but to me it would sound more natural to say "they..." or "the snakes".

Maybe a BIOLVAR as just about all reviewers of biology articles favour singular unless talking about a group of something. Have rejigged to reduce ambiguity and removed some "It"s Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:57, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• Description section could use some wikilinks - link or explain nuchal band, link dugite and Peninsula brown snake, etc.

linked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:08, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• I think I always say this about southern hemisphere topics, but mixing seasonal descriptions and months always makes my northern-hemisphere brain stutter. Some sort of cue like "During winter, from May to September, they hibernate..." would be useful.

clarified Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:54, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• Speaking of which - do they hibernate or brumate? (Or both?) I always thought hibernation referred to a degree of metabolic depression that wouldn't permit brief excursions to come out and bask on the occasional warm day, but I'm a biochemist, not a real biologist :)

from the sounds of the sources, probably brumate. However I have not seen that word used to describe their hibernation at all... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:54, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• The behavior section says they're mostly solitary but then describes a number of examples of hibernating groups being found near houses, etc. Is it normal for them to hibernate in groups - and the notable feature of these discoveries is that they're close to buildings and people - or are these events being highlighted because the grouping is what's unusual?

I guess the gist of it is that it is unusual compared with their usual solitary nature but not uncommon either. I guess the issue is both the groups and proximity to dwellings Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:54, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• "The eastern brown snake reacts when confronted with one of two neck displays." - rephrase to "When confronted, the EBS reacts with one of two neck displays"? Otherwise it sounds like the critter doing the confronting is also the one doing the displaying.

clarified Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:54, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• The bites resulting from a full display are presumably on the upper thighs of humans, not of whatever else they might want to bite in self-defense. (Like predators? Do they have any? The only one referenced is the mulga snake, a "potential" predator. Come to think of it, does anything eat their eggs?)

clarified thigh ownership (snakes don't have legs anyway :)). Frustrating that youtube isn't RS as here is redbellied black snake eating one. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:54, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• On the effect of temperature on egg development: do the baby snakes develop faster at higher temperature, or do they hatch at an earlier stage of development?

the sources I have seen do not specify, but surely they hatch when the critter inside is ready (?) so am presuming it is the former.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:06, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

I know some critters have a range of "hatching-competent" stages and can hatch anywhere in that range in response to environmental cues, but it seems to be more of an amphibian thing from a quick search. I didn't find a snake example, much less this particular one. Opabinia regalis (talk) 09:15, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

• "Introduced house mice are a common prey item, though they eat mammals as large as rabbits." - I think, grammatically, this sentence involves rabbit-eating mice :) Also - aren't rabbits also introduced in Australia? Do we know what the native prey was?

tweaked - I am presuming their original prey was rodents and small marsupials (but have not seen a source concluding this). Australia has a bunch of native rodents ( Pseudomys) - the influx of feral mice was a bonanza for the species Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:06, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• Larger snakes eating more warm-blooded prey: that's really interesting! Any idea why? Earlier in the article, we learn that the northern populations tend to be larger, is that related?

I know, right? Especially as the venom composition changes too. Frustratingly, the original source does not speculate much on it - it's mainly talking about the specific differences within the genus, and with other Australian elapid snakes. There is noithing written connecting the clinal size difference to the adult/juvenile prey proportions Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:26, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• I think the cane toad thing came up in one of the other snake articles, but in that case they weren't learning to avoid the toads. These guys do learn, and even young snakes avoid toads? Do we know the mechanism for this - are individual snakes learning to avoid toads/not learning them as prey, or is it something else?

Can't find anything covering this in any greater detail, sadly Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:31, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• I like weird proteins, so I looked up textilotoxin - seems like there is newer evidence on its structure, e.g. [1] (6 subunits, not 5). A couple of other venom papers that may be of interest - [2], [3]. (This one is also interesting - small sample size, but apparently venom composition doesn't change under long-term captivity, which might be a useful piece of information.)

I have been wondering in how much detail to go into...will read added a bunch of venom stuff Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:40, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I found the original paper that found the 6 units and have added it. Not sure what else from that paper is significant enough for the layperson to read...? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:31, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Probably they don't even care about the stoichiometry! Pfft :) Looks good to me. Opabinia regalis (talk) 09:15, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

• The first sentence of the treatment section is really clunky and isn't parallel - it sounds like two sentences smushed together.

sentence split Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:37, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• I think this came up in other snake articles too - do we know how many, if any, bites were by captive animals or involved snake enthusiasts vs people encountering them in the wild?

This paper, in the results section, sheds some light on that but it is for general snake bite not broken down by species....hence is too general to include here...? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:40, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• Not strictly necessary for GA, but since I thought of it: would indigenous populations have encountered these critters and are there any traditions/stories/names for them? Opabinia regalis (talk) 07:15, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

yes I'd like to include this but proving elusive.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 16:03, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Ok @Opabinia regalis: have done everything asked....just waiting on replies to emails about photos of juveniles on flickr (all are all rights reserved...crossing fingers that someone feels like donating) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:07, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping, looks great!

For the sake of bookkeeping: this article is well-written, uses reliable sources well, is broad, neutral, and stable, and is as well-illustrated as possible without new releases of appropriately licensed images. Well done, congrats! Opabinia regalis (talk) 09:15, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

மொழிக் கொள்கை

1.அறிவை வவளர்க்க மொழியுதவ வேண்டும் பெரியார் உரைக்கும் நெறி. 2. வள்ளுவரைப் போற்றினார் பின்னோர் மடமொழி உள்ளமது கண்டுநொந்தார். 3. சங்க இலக்கியத்தில் குற்றம் உரைக்கவில்லை தங்கமாய் ஏற்றுக் கொண்டார்.

               - காலத்தின் குறள் பெரியார் தொகுதி- ஆக்கியோன் கோட்டாறுச.ச.தமிழரசன்(எ) ச.ச.வேலரசு. மணிமேகலை59 (talk) 16:25, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Antivenine

This is very much POV, but here goes anyway. I live on the Gold Coast of Australia, where there are these guys, common Brown Snakes. Red-Bellied Blacks, and Taipans. All of which are venomous. Others that I dont remember right now that are also "mildly" venomous to humans.

EVERYTHING I have read locally about what to do when bitten by a snake contains the same thing: Do not try to catch the snake, because you dont need to identify it, because all of the hospitals in the area now have a universal antivenene. Does that contradict the information given here about the difficulty in obtaining an antivenene? 2001:8003:E40F:9601:5CA6:A644:7B2D:B738 (talk) 06:38, 24 March 2024 (UTC)