Talk:Eastern brown snake/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Opabinia regalis (talk · contribs) 07:15, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Well done overall! I took a bunch of notes but they're mostly prose/clarity issues (and one image question).

• There are two different spellings in the taxonomy section of Demansia/Diemansia - were both used or is this a typo? Is Diemenia different from the preceding two?

Yes - one sees all three spellings (confusing I know, luckily none apply now :)) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:10, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

• The taxonomic history is a little confusing, and I'm not sure if that's because of the writing or because it really is confusing. It was moved to Pseudonaja twice - once by Krefft, and then out by Gunther, and then later back in by Worrell?

So yes, Krefft goes with Pseudonaja but then afterwards Demansia is generally used. I suspect this is because Diemenia was already used as a bug genus in 1850. There must be something documenting this change but I have not found it. Then it is generally Demansia textilis until Worrell splits it with this paper. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:45, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

• Since the taxonomy section makes a point of the confusion that resulted from describing juveniles and adults as separate species, do we have any pictures of juveniles available?

Not on commons, nor with the appropriate licence on flickr. There are some that are all rights reserved so I'll try and ask and see if anyone is prepared to donate any Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:56, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

• "Within the genus Pseudonaja, the eastern brown snake is unique in having a diploid pattern of 38 chromosomes" - is it the diploid pattern or the 38 chromosomes that's unique? (Presumably the latter? How many do the others have?)

The other species have 30 to 36 (from the same paper). I rejigged it Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:17, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

• In the description section, the short sentence "It has a dark tongue" is kind of awkwardly placed, and isn't too clear on whether that means all eastern brown snakes, or just the dark ones in eastern Papua New Guinea from the previous sentence. On further reading: there's a lot of sentences and clauses that start with "it"; maybe this is an ENGVAR thing but to me it would sound more natural to say "they..." or "the snakes".

Maybe a BIOLVAR as just about all reviewers of biology articles favour singular unless talking about a group of something. Have rejigged to reduce ambiguity and removed some "It"s Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:57, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• Description section could use some wikilinks - link or explain nuchal band, link dugite and Peninsula brown snake, etc.

linked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:08, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• I think I always say this about southern hemisphere topics, but mixing seasonal descriptions and months always makes my northern-hemisphere brain stutter. Some sort of cue like "During winter, from May to September, they hibernate..." would be useful.

clarified Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:54, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• Speaking of which - do they hibernate or brumate? (Or both?) I always thought hibernation referred to a degree of metabolic depression that wouldn't permit brief excursions to come out and bask on the occasional warm day, but I'm a biochemist, not a real biologist :)

from the sounds of the sources, probably brumate. However I have not seen that word used to describe their hibernation at all... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:54, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• The behavior section says they're mostly solitary but then describes a number of examples of hibernating groups being found near houses, etc. Is it normal for them to hibernate in groups - and the notable feature of these discoveries is that they're close to buildings and people - or are these events being highlighted because the grouping is what's unusual?

I guess the gist of it is that it is unusual compared with their usual solitary nature but not uncommon either. I guess the issue is both the groups and proximity to dwellings Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:54, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• "The eastern brown snake reacts when confronted with one of two neck displays." - rephrase to "When confronted, the EBS reacts with one of two neck displays"? Otherwise it sounds like the critter doing the confronting is also the one doing the displaying.

clarified Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:54, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• The bites resulting from a full display are presumably on the upper thighs of humans, not of whatever else they might want to bite in self-defense. (Like predators? Do they have any? The only one referenced is the mulga snake, a "potential" predator. Come to think of it, does anything eat their eggs?)

clarified thigh ownership (snakes don't have legs anyway :)). Frustrating that youtube isn't RS as here is redbellied black snake eating one. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:54, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• On the effect of temperature on egg development: do the baby snakes develop faster at higher temperature, or do they hatch at an earlier stage of development?

the sources I have seen do not specify, but surely they hatch when the critter inside is ready (?) so am presuming it is the former.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:06, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

I know some critters have a range of "hatching-competent" stages and can hatch anywhere in that range in response to environmental cues, but it seems to be more of an amphibian thing from a quick search. I didn't find a snake example, much less this particular one. Opabinia regalis (talk) 09:15, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

• "Introduced house mice are a common prey item, though they eat mammals as large as rabbits." - I think, grammatically, this sentence involves rabbit-eating mice :) Also - aren't rabbits also introduced in Australia? Do we know what the native prey was?

tweaked - I am presuming their original prey was rodents and small marsupials (but have not seen a source concluding this). Australia has a bunch of native rodents ( Pseudomys) - the influx of feral mice was a bonanza for the species Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:06, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• Larger snakes eating more warm-blooded prey: that's really interesting! Any idea why? Earlier in the article, we learn that the northern populations tend to be larger, is that related?

I know, right? Especially as the venom composition changes too. Frustratingly, the original source does not speculate much on it - it's mainly talking about the specific differences within the genus, and with other Australian elapid snakes. There is noithing written connecting the clinal size difference to the adult/juvenile prey proportions Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:26, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• I think the cane toad thing came up in one of the other snake articles, but in that case they weren't learning to avoid the toads. These guys do learn, and even young snakes avoid toads? Do we know the mechanism for this - are individual snakes learning to avoid toads/not learning them as prey, or is it something else?

Can't find anything covering this in any greater detail, sadly Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:31, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• I like weird proteins, so I looked up textilotoxin - seems like there is newer evidence on its structure, e.g. [1] (6 subunits, not 5). A couple of other venom papers that may be of interest - [2], [3]. (This one is also interesting - small sample size, but apparently venom composition doesn't change under long-term captivity, which might be a useful piece of information.)

I have been wondering in how much detail to go into...will read added a bunch of venom stuff Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:40, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I found the original paper that found the 6 units and have added it. Not sure what else from that paper is significant enough for the layperson to read...? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:31, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Probably they don't even care about the stoichiometry! Pfft :) Looks good to me. Opabinia regalis (talk) 09:15, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

• The first sentence of the treatment section is really clunky and isn't parallel - it sounds like two sentences smushed together.

sentence split Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:37, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• I think this came up in other snake articles too - do we know how many, if any, bites were by captive animals or involved snake enthusiasts vs people encountering them in the wild?

This paper, in the results section, sheds some light on that but it is for general snake bite not broken down by species....hence is too general to include here...? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:40, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

• Not strictly necessary for GA, but since I thought of it: would indigenous populations have encountered these critters and are there any traditions/stories/names for them? Opabinia regalis (talk) 07:15, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

yes I'd like to include this but proving elusive.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 16:03, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Ok @Opabinia regalis: have done everything asked....just waiting on replies to emails about photos of juveniles on flickr (all are all rights reserved...crossing fingers that someone feels like donating) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:07, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping, looks great!

For the sake of bookkeeping: this article is well-written, uses reliable sources well, is broad, neutral, and stable, and is as well-illustrated as possible without new releases of appropriately licensed images. Well done, congrats! Opabinia regalis (talk) 09:15, 30 April 2019 (UTC)