Talk:British Airways Flight 38/Archive 1

History merge

I have deleted this again to perform a history merge, I am now watiting for the server to catch up before restoring content. Woody (talk) 14:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, done now.Woody (talk) 14:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Duplicate article

British Airways flight 038 which I created with the correct flight number duplicates this article. As this article was started first (I did search under the correct flight number) and has more material, could someone merge/redirect/retitle etc? There is a link from Wikinews to the article I created, so needs attending to. Mjroots (talk) 14:55, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

According to the Aviation accident task force the correct name for this article is British Airways flight BA38. I have redirected British Airways flight 038 to here. I have not performed a history merge as there was no cut and paste/ merging neccessary. Woody (talk) 15:00, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Woody. No problem, just no point in having two articles on same thing. Now, how do I add the construction number (Construction number=30314/342) to the infobox?Mjroots (talk) 15:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Can we consider the discussion over deletion settled, then? That way, I can remove the AfD tag. Quanticle (talk) 15:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The AfD had nothing to do with the article naming, it related to the notability of the incident - however the AfD has been withdrawn anyway. Halsteadk (talk) 17:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I did the same thing. User:Edward quickly did a merge & redirect :-) Astronaut (talk) 15:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm considering the discussion about deletion settled, then, and am removing the deletion tag —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quanticle (talk • contribs) 15:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I have readded the tag. The afd has not yet been closed, and has not been open long enough to reach a consensus. Please don't remove the tag until the afd has been closed by an uninvolved party. Woody (talk) 15:55, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I know these things need to be closed by an uninvolved party, but what is the criteria for closing? There are 15 keeps to two deletes. Is there a timeframe involved? --Daysleeper47 (talk) 16:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

A speedy keep can take place at any time per WP:SNOW, but it has to be done by an admin that is uninvolved in the article itself. -- Roleplayer (talk) 16:18, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Just make sure the flight number is correct. It looks like "BA038" is the shortened form to "British Airways 038". This is similar notation to United Airlines 175 shortened to UA175. KyuuA4 (talk) 20:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Infobox

This seems to have got lost in the text above:-

• How do I add the construction number to the infobox? (Construction number=30314/342)Mjroots (talk) 16:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Per the template documentation, I don't think there is a parameter for that yet. Woody (talk) 17:03, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Added info to text. Mjroots (talk) 17:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The database link from the tail number is broken. Last update of airdisaster.com was in last September. Is it defunct? --213.155.231.26 (talk) 17:36, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

changed to a link that works Mjroots (talk) 18:26, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

BA38/BA038

BAA, BA and now the BBC are all saying it is "BA038". This does not appear to clash with Wikipedia:WikiProject_Aviation/Aviation_accident_task_force contrary to an above post, so I think it would be appropriate to move this back to British Airways Flight BA038. Halsteadk (talk) 17:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I was commenting on British Airways flight 038. Please notice the lack of "BA". I think BA038 is correct and am willing to move it, if other people agree. Woody (talk) 17:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

You're right, apologies! Re-edited my other comment in the section above. If BAA and BA say it is BA038 then that's what it is, over and above what the BBC originally called it. Halsteadk (talk) 17:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It was called that in the very fresh chaos surrounding the initial breaking news. There were 4 articles created and the page had to be merged a couple of times using deletion. It will be no problem to move it, just need a bit more of a consensus. Woody (talk) 17:52, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Support Hope doing that won't cause problems as there already has been an article with that title. Mjroots (talk) 17:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I always thought it was BA038. That is common usage by BA and most airports that I've visited. Astronaut (talk) 19:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It's British Airways Flight 38 as a title, otherwise all the other articles in wikipedia will have to be changed to conform, like "American Airlines Flight AA587" and while we're at it, why not start using ICAO codes as well as IATA codes, so British Airways flight BAW038 and British Airways BAW038 and British Airways BAW38 and British Airways flight BAW38 and then we can start using British Airways former name BOAC and the British tagline it used in the 1980s and slogans too, so "The world's favourite airline flight 38" and "the worlds favourite airline flight BA038"....

You get my point. Stick with convention for the actual title, as discussed previously, and feel free to make as many redirects to this as you like. It saves arguments and ensures it is in keeping with the existing system.

--150.237.47.14 (talk) 19:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

No need to sarcastic like that. I was simply stating what I thought the "convention" was, based on my experience as a frequent traveller. Astronaut (talk) 00:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

My sarcasm was not aimed at you, it was aimed at everyone (I don't discriminate) who didn't note the earlier posting within this page about convention on Wikipedia regarding the naming of these articles. They even (thoughtfully) provided a link. 150.237.47.14 (talk) 14:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Does this mean that the Flight numbers listed with leading 0s on the List of notable accidents and incidents on commercial aircraft are incorrect? Ff.eternal (talk) 00:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

It does not really matter, 38 is the same as 038. Airports and others use the zero because it makes their electronic displays and pages look good. Just because other articles use the zero then that is not reason to change this one. In wikipedia British Airways Flight BA038 and other variants all link to this page. But note the aircraft callsign is Speedbird 38 not Speedbird 038 good enough reason to leave it alone. MilborneOne (talk) 00:29, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I understand, I'm just trying to help make the article as accurate as possible for the benefit of others. I realise that they are the same and to conform with other articles I've reverted the flight numbers back to 38. Just curious but would it be better to have links to articles written the same as the title of the article that's being linked to? Ff.eternal (talk) 00:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

It ought really to be 038. Having worked in the aviation industry, it tends to be the practice in North America to avoid leading zeros (e.g. Delta would refer to its "flagship" service to London as DL1). European and most Asian airlines tend to use the leading zeros (e.g. BA's flagship Concorde service to New York used to be BA001). British Airways (as with almost all European airlines) use leading zeros. 94pjg (talk) 00:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

As written it would be BA038 or BAW038, but when spoken people tend to omit the leading zero. BA's Concorde service was indeed BA001/BAW001 but the callsign was "Speedbird Concorde 1".

150.237.47.14 (talk) 02:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Deletion...

Hello,

I noticed that this article had been proposed for deletion. I see it has now been withdrawn.

If this article is disputed again, may I say that it is welcome at http://plane.spottingworld.com, a wiki for articles jsut like this! Also, if there is info that people want to add that Wikipedia don't allow, feel free to add it here.

Thanks,

Bluegoblin7 18:37, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Reading the initial proposal of that AfD, the person needs to look at JetBlue Airways Flight 292, which was just a landing gear failure caught by the American news media. KyuuA4 (talk) 20:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

That's a good point. Anyway, I just though i'd mention it, and this is NOT advertising! Just being helpful!

Bluegoblin7 20:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I tried to AFD that article when it was on ITN :-) I learned NEVER to try and AFD articles that are currently getting lots of news coverage. You'll never get them deleted. Evil Monkey - Hello 00:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Please, skepticism might be particularly helpful regarding < http://spottingworld.com >.

Thank You,

[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 03:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Pertinent Fact

It would be interesting to know if the flight time was significantly longer than scheduled —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.171.254.65 (talk) 20:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Reported on Pprune that flight was 20 mins early - thus making fuel exhaustion even less likely.Mjroots (talk) 12:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Page Moves

If anyone objects to the naming of this article, please use the WP:RM process. I have had to perform 4 page history merges today. PLEASE read WP:CUTPASTE before improperly moving this page. Thankyou. Woody (talk) 23:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

references

Having to post this again!

2 refs (#7 & #8) have been turned into interwiki links that do not reference the material used in the article. Can someone fix this please? 23:48, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. The problem was that the "title" field in {{cite news}} shouldn't be a wiki link (NB. "interwiki" means a link to a different Wikimedia project, e.g. the French Wikipedia), as it becomes the text of the external link.

Incidentally, I don't regard those as particularly helpful links anyway--if they linked to a particular story containing the expert quotes, that would be better, but they only link to the homepages of those news programmes. --RFBailey (talk) 23:57, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I put the ITV Early Evening News and Newsnight in. They are broadcast news reports. I made a silly error linking on the title field. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 00:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Format of references

I recently removed all the breaks and whitespaces from the references in the lead section of the article, as I felt that they didn't improve the readability and editability (is that a word?) of the text. I just received a message from Daytona2 (talk · contribs), who said: "I think that you've made the edit code harder to read by unformating the inline citation templates and blurring the distinction between text and code." How do others feel about this? Aecis^Brievenbus 01:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I personally prefer the white space, as long as it doesn't make any difference to how the text is displayed. It does make the format appear much clearer. -- Roleplayer (talk) 01:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Roleplayer here, the white space does make the code easier to edit and especially easier for 'newbies' to reuse IMHO Nil Einne (talk) 08:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Piano Keys?

The article mentions "piano keys" on the runway. Is this the same as the white threshold markings? If so, "piano keys" should link to Runway and runway should define that phrase. —Ben FrantzDale (talk) 02:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Runway threshold markings are known as piano keys in aviation slang. Mjroots (talk) 08:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure ? I'm not and I added the phrase <g> ! -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 11:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

METAR

The METAR in force at the time of the accident was:- EGLL 171220Z 21014KT 180V240 9999 SCT008 BKN010 09/08 Q0997 TEMPO 21018G28KT 4000 RADZ BKN008

• EGLL = London Heathrow Airport
• 171220Z = Issued on the 17th day of the month at 1220 UTC/GMT
• 21014kt = Wind from 210deg at 14 knots
• 180V240 = wind direction variable from 180 to 240 degrees
• 9999 = visibility in excess of 10km
• SCT008 = scattered clouds (3/8 to 4/8 of sky covered) at 800 feet
• BKN010 = broken clouds (5/8 to 7/8 of sky covered) at 1000 feet
• 09/08 = temperature 9C, dew point 8C
• Q0997 = QNH 997mb
• TEMPO = Temporary changes
• 21018G28KT = wind from 210 degrees at 18kts, gusting to 28kts
• 4000 = visibility reducing to 4000 metres
• RADZ = rain and drizzle
• BKN008 = broken clouds at 800 feet

The above would read:-

"METAR - London Heathrow on 17th January at 1220 zulu (UTC/GMT), wind 210 degrees at 14 knots, variable 180 to 240 degrees. Visibility greater than 10 kilometres. Cloud, scattered 800 feet and broken at 1000 feet. Temperature 9 degrees celsius, Dewpoint 8 degrees celsius. Temporarily - wind 210 degress at 18 knots, gusting 28 knots with visibility reducing to 4000 metres in rain, drizzle and broken cloud at 800 feet." Kiwi Kousin (talk) 19:08, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

This info is published by a reliable source (BAA Heathrow) although it was reposted on a discussion thread in Pprune, which genreally cannot be taken as a reliable source. Although this particular piece of info can be taken as being reliable. Mjroots (talk) 10:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Good info, thanks. I haven't been able to get on to PPRuNe at all - server too busy :-( -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 10:58, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't get into Pprune at all yesterday. Looking at the thread, there were over 7,000 on Pprune at one point.Mjroots (talk) 11:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Could this information be added to a sub page to be linked to from the reference, rather than asking for users to plough through this huge talk page to find it? It's very useful. -- Roleplayer (talk) 13:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

 Done linked from ref at bottom of article. Mjroots (talk) 15:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Cool. -- Roleplayer (talk) 15:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

comment Unbelievable! Distances measured in metres, feet and kilometres; tempuratures in celsius; angles in degrees, speeds in knots; pressures in millibars and cloud cover in 1/8ths. Has no one heard of standard units? Markb (talk) 13:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Aircraft flights use a somewhat peculiar combination of units as described in flight planning#Units of measurement. Murray Langton (talk) 20:27, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Out of fuel?

Did the aircraft run out of fuel? CarbonLifeForm (talk) 13:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

There are no reports to confirm this, and as has been pointed out above the flight was 20 minutes early so fuel was unlikely to be the issue. -- Roleplayer (talk) 13:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Most likely cause would seem to lie with the avionics. Windshear, bird strike and lack of fuel have not been tuled out yet, terrorism has. Hopefully we'll know more once the AAIB reports tomorrow. Mjroots (talk) 13:41, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

"Most likely cause would seem to lie with the avionics." How so? How could the avionics cause the engines to fail to generate the thrust called for? Do you have any source which supports that kind of speculation? EditorASC (talk) 21:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

In principle a software error in the FADEC could have caused the unexpected performance. Is FADEC not considered under the umbrella term avionics? But note these are old statements; recent updates from the AAIB have focused on the fuel system. --Fletcher (talk) 22:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

A comparison on Pprune is being made to this incident. Not that I'm saying that it was or wasn't the cause in this case.Mjroots (talk) 14:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Just given out on News24 - preliminary AAIB report will say that both engines faild on approach. Mjroots (talk) 17:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Initial report released, info added to article. Mjroots (talk) 17:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

A/c did not run out of fuel - see 'No thrust' on stricken BA plane story in refs. Mjroots (talk) 19:58, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks like a dog's dinner

The spacing cuased by using those socking great inverted commas around the quotations looks dreadful. 81.129.129.124 (talk) 09:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

At least it's clear that they are quotations. Much easier to format that way than indent & italics every paragraph! Mjroots (talk) 09:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

That was my thinking when I replaced them. As ever on WP, feel free to play around with them. There are other quotation tools. I'll reduce the quotation mark size. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 11:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I have prosified it because there were so many duplicate and outdated statements. There was no need for all the statements. Woody (talk) 14:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statements (Merged topics)

Whoever it was that fiddled with all the statements has managed to lose the link to Willie Walsh's statement. Going back through the history I got [http://bapress.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/bapress.cfg/php/enduser/popup_adp.php?<?%20print("p_sid=$p_sid&p_lva=$p_lva&p_li=$p_li")%20?>&p_faqid=7411&p_created=1200584913 ''Willie Walsh, CEO''] but can't seem to make it work :/. Mjroots (talk) 15:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Link changed to website that has the statement by WW. Mjroots (talk) 15:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The link seems to have turned into a deadlink, you seem to have fixed that. I converted the statements because as stated above, "it looked like a dogs dinner". Woody (talk) 15:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

• Oppose the merging of information into text and removing the statements. Statements were much better as they had been revised with the small quotes. It was easy to see which statement was which, and who had made it. The way it is now is a mess! Mjroots (talk) 16:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• Given that I am the one that has prosified the text, I think it is better this way. Whilst the prose isn't perfect, it can be edited. As it was though, Two-thirds of this article were a {{quotefarm}} which is not what an encyclopedia should be. An encyclopedia should be a summary of the most accurate, verifiable information available. As it was, most of the statements had little long-term relevance, especially the ambulance one and the initial BA statement beyond the fact that there was an incident. Willie Walsh's statement was of little use as well, it gave the number of casualties at "three". Yet, his praising of the pilots and crw is noteworthy and has been included. The statements are just knee-jerk reactions, in the long-term, they will be redundant to any AAIB report. Woody (talk) 16:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, how about having a subpage (like the METAR one) for the statements to be posted on in their revised (small quotes) form, and merging the info as suggested.Mjroots (talk) 16:34, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Burkill or Birkhill?

Which is the correct spelling of the captain's name? Mjroots (talk) 17:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Birkill per BBC1 6pm news. - CarbonLifeForm (talk) 18:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

AAIB Initial Report released

[1] -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 18:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

missing redirects

This article is missing some redirects

• G-YMMM - tail number
• BA038 - IATA code/flight number
• BAW038 - ICAO code/flight number
• Speedbird 38 - callsign/flight number

- 132.205.44.5 (talk) 19:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Check the policy before doing so Wikipedia:Redirect -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 19:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

It's there. Didn't you see them? alternate name and abbreviation

Ofcourse G-YMMM is the name of the aircraft involved... which is not an alternate name or abbreviation for the flight, but is the primary topic of the article (incident involving aircraft G-YMMM on landing at Heathrow, while on duty as conveyance assigned to BA038)

It's why KAL007 and TWA800 exist. 132.205.44.5 (talk) 20:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

G-YMMM is the registration of the aircraft. G- denotes it is registered in the UK, and YMMM is the actual UK registration - much the same as AB01CDE is a car registration. All aircraft take their identity from their construction number (c/n), which almost never changes, unlike a registration, which can change several times during the life of an aircraft. Mjroots (talk) 21:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

It is however, the registration number at the time of the crash. Just as there are other BA038 flights, with other planes, but this particular flight on this particular day with this particular plane crashed. And the tail number is featured in some news coverage. 132.205.44.5 (talk) 22:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The only one of those that has any merit is BA038, but I'd suggest leaving it for now. Once there is widespread use of BA038 in the media that is the time to create the redirect.Mjroots (talk) 21:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't look, I rarely have cause to use redirect so I don't know the guideline - only that there is one. I question whether they are necessary as I think most people won't know them; instead they will find the article via a search engine - a search on Heathrow 777 crash gives over 600,000 links. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 22:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

General comments on article content and development

Speaking for myself, I view articles such as this differently to that of the WP guidelines and policies. Due to WP having such a high ranking in search engines I feel that it's initial role in an incident such as this is to provide information to friends and relatives of those involved rather than to offer encyclopedic content. Once the need for such information has reduced, as I believe is the case now, it can be converted into an encyclopedic article by summarising the Air Accidents Investigation Branch findings.

I added the quotes from all the major parties that people would expect to issue statements and would want to read. It is right and proper that they are now removed as many of them are unhelpful public relations speak, but needed to be included for completeness. The only information worth quoting now, is insightful information from the crew, the manufacturers or the AAIB.

A useful article describing the transformation of such articles is Wikipedia:Recentism. It may well be that the article in it's final form requires only a few paragraphs. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 20:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

To be honest I started that process yesterday, when the article was just a few hours old - changing all the language from present tense to past tense. -- Roleplayer (talk) 02:03, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Peter Burkill, Alfred C. Haynes

This morning, on bbcamerica I saw this airplane. Later, on there, & cnn, I'd heard that there had been no deaths, no particular injuries.

&, I heard, most of the people had not known that they had crashed until they had been told to evacuate. Several of the thoughts I'd had were of the ways to honor such a pilot. The article should make it very clear what that video showed of the wings.

Actually their link is to wikinews, not Wikipedia. -- Roleplayer (talk) 02:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, "actual", maybe each ip gets a variation; I've spent a lot of time checking:

This is what is under the word "wikipedia" in the version that I get: < http://try.alottoolbars.com/tb/reference/reference_dictionary.php?aff_id=googlefour >.

That is deception, period.

[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 02:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

There is no deception on the part of wikipedia. Wikipedia is not directly involved with that site and we cannot control what they put on their page. Woody (talk) 02:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, nothing has meaning,... If that's policy,...

[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 02:45, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

There's an extremely high probability that the plane was out of fuel.

"Reported on Pprune that flight was 20 mins early - thus making fuel exhaustion even less likely" FYI: the fact that the plane landed 20 minutes early in no way absolves the possibility that the plane ran out of fuel. On a flight that long, the aircraft could have likely encountered a weather system requiring higher power settings to ascend, maintain airspeed, etc. Delays are costly to airlines. Airlines also do not like to have their aircraft carry large quantities of excess fuel as it increases fuel consumption. The odds of two Rolls Royce jet engines (or any two jet engines, for that matter) failing simultaneously are astronomical. Also, an investigator noted "significant" fuel leakage from the aircraft. The plane could have been "out" of fuel but still had a significant amount of fuel, possible hundreds of gallons, sloshing around inside of the tanks. (a 777 holds 45,220 gallons of fuel) If the plane crash landed with the required reserve amount of fuel on board, the fuel leakage would have been enormous, not "significant". I would be shocked to find the investigation conclude any outcome besides fuel shortage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.113.129.70 (talk) 07:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand... there were no reports that the plane had gone through any bad weather etc. Therefore I would guess (which is what we are doing), that it hadn't run out of fuel. Unless BA are in the habit of putting so little fuel on planes that nearly every flight is nearly dropping out of the sky! Let alone the pilots forgetting to monitor the fuel (which is unlikely, given standard in-flight procedures), or forgetting to notice the fuel shortage warning alarms during what was otherwise a routine flight.

The odds of two jet engines failing is indeed very low; however the possibility of computer failure on these new 'clever' fly-by-wire jets is not so low. I would guess some electrical failure, maybe related to landing gear activation, causing communications failure between cockpit and engines. But that is a total guess too :)

A final point about fuel leakage. 'Significant' might be the same as 'enormous', depending on who says it. Also, if the wing was punctured where it joins the body of the plane, and if the wing was tilting down a bit... then only one wing worth of fuel would leak, and actually, depending on the point of puncture, only a small amount of fuel may leak out, the rest remaining in the wing.Buckethed (talk) 08:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_glider --- just sayin.. --Kvuo (talk) 14:49, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

"The odds of two Rolls Royce jet engines (or any two jet engines, for that matter) failing simultaneously are astronomical." If you are asserting the chance of them failing simultaniously from independent internal failure, then I would agree. However, it is entirely possible for both engines to fail due to upstream failures, for example, in the avionics package. Indeed, you are making such an assertation yourself, by arguing for fuel exhaustion. However, fuel exhaustion is only one of a number of ways in which both engines could fail to respond. Toby Douglass (talk) 15:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Part 2 (moved from bottom) Woody (talk) 22:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Buckethed and Toby Douglass both provide excellent points in their response to my post. However, as noted, until the investigation is complete, we are all just guessing at this point. It should be noted that whenever an airplane crashes, the vast majority of the time it's due to human error, and the vast majority of the time the human error turns out to be pilot error. Far and away the number one pilot error when an airplane crashes is...you guessed it! Fuel exhaustion. Buckethed also noted: "The odds of two jet engines failing is indeed very low; however the possibility of computer failure on these new 'clever' fly-by-wire jets is not so low" As a matter of fact, the odds of a computer failure on a critical system on an airliner is EXTREMELY low. In an effort to take any nationalism out of it, I'm American and the odds of an electrical failure related to a critical system on an Airbus are just as low as it would be on a Boeing product...that is, extremely low. On the same note, the odds of a Rolls Royce jet engine failing are just as slim as a General Electric engine failing. As we guess back and forth as to what happened, the main point of my previous post is just to assert that the fact that the plane (supposedly) landed 20 minutes early in no way means that the plane could not have run out of fuel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.113.129.70 (talk) 22:44, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

"Far and away the number one pilot error when an airplane crashes is...you guessed it! Fuel exhaustion." What studies support a statement like that? I think fuel exhaustion is an extremely rare cause of an airliner crash. CFIT crashes are far more common, than fuel exhaustion crashes. EditorASC (talk) 21:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

But we are not the AAIB, so we do not know any of the facts. This is an encyclopedia not a forum for speculation. We can only accept Verifiable information which none of this can be. Can we stop this discussion now please. Regards. Woody (talk) 22:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Just to support Woody this page is to discuss the article it is NOT a discussion board on the accident. MilborneOne (talk) 23:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Somewhere else it was said the APU was running at the crash scene... AFAIK there is no independent fuel supply for the APU. -Rolypolyman (talk) 04:55, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The BBC reported there was a major fuel leak which the fire service had to douse down, I can't be bothered to find a link for you though. The aircraft most certainly had fuel in the tanks, and for that matter, so did the engines because they were above flight idle upon impact (latest AAIB statement, I don't mean the throttle setting either, I mean what the engines were actually doing). I think it's pretty hard for engines to run above flight idle without fuel... 150.237.47.14 (talk) 02:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Dousing standard procedure, with or without fuel/leak? Crash would probably have caused fuel leak? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I admit the first thing I thought when it was reported that a plane had two engines simultaneously lose power, the plane crash, and there be NO resulting fire was fuel exhaustion. However, the reports did indicate that there was a significant amount of fuel spilled onto the ground by the crash. It's still a guessing game for those of us not privvy to details whether the fuel was in the same tank the engines were pulling from, whether it was contaminated, whether there was enough, etc. It's all too common for general aviation accidents to be due to fuel exhaustion, but rare for scheduled jet service to have that be the cause... I think the only other case I've heard of was Air_Transat_Flight_236 --Sam (talk) 04:32, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Recentism

Isn't this article a little overkill? I mean, this incident will likely not be remembered. As for comparion, another aircraft type would only have a short sentence about the first hull loss incident, not a full length article of its own, with its "could have beens" and "what ifs". I was wondering the same thing, when Sky News covered the story the whole day when it happened. --MoRsE (talk) 10:38, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Au contraire! This incident will most likely be remembered as the first hull loss incident. It may also be more notable once the full AAIB report has been released (end of year?) and all the causes are known and published. The "could have beens" and "what ifs" are kept at a minimum in the article, and referenced. Once the Full Report is issued, they won't matter. Mjroots (talk) 10:49, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps other articles are underkill. The televisual propensity to forget yesterdays news is extremely unhealthy. Toby Douglass (talk) 15:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you want to stick w/ "overkill"? Intriguing choice, that there had been reports, some of the reports, true or not, that most of them were not even aware that they had crashed,.... &, that it had reminded me of Alfred_Haynes, We. 19th July 1989 {< http://flyertalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-537797.html >}.

The article should make it very clear what that video had shown of the wings.

Thank You,

[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 13:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm fully aware who Al Haynes is, (and Eric Moody too, if we're going to start bandying names about). Haynes had plenty of time to assess what he could and couldn't do. Coward & Burkill didn't have that luxury. Mjroots (talk) 13:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Can we please stick with the topic at hand? There has been a fair amount of random discussion on this talk page over the past couple of days. The only purpose of this talk page is to discuss the article and how to improve it: not to discuss the subject of the article; not to speculate etc. Please take a look at WP:TALK. Thank you. _TalkIslander 13:37, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I had been advocating content, regarding the video,.... that there should be such a description.

I did not know, until that comment, about John_Coward; but, John Coward leads elsewhere. Nor had I thought of Eric Moody.

I'd mentioned Mr. Haynes due to the "recentism" attack, the "overkill" attack.

Thank You f/ mentioning Mr. Moody, Mr. Coward.

[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 13:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

John Coward now has a link pointing people in the direction of the correct thread if they want the airman. Mjroots (talk) 14:12, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

For the First Officer flying the aircraft that crashed at Heathrow on January 17 2008 see British Airways Flight 38

John Coward: Whereas I recall watching bbcamerica yesterday, that would be impossible.

[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 16:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me if I have got this wrong, but you appear to be suggesting that the incident could not have taken place on 17 January, because you only saw it on American TV on 18 January. I am assuming that is why you made changes to the John Coward article to suggest that this all took place on 18 January. I can assure you the incident did take place on Thursday, not Friday. -- Roleplayer (talk) 17:11, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

As far as WP goes, if the subject has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent, it's notable. It's all spelt out in Wikipedia:Notability -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 20:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I have been severely misunderstood, several times, on this disc. page.

Most recently regarding what I had watched, as well as regarding mathematics.

In Alta California, the two least American-program channels largely available to many viewers are bbcamerica & worldlink. That's, for many, it. Most people do not even know that they exist. Only because of Benazir_Bhutto's death did I learn of BBC_News_24, on bbcamerica.

The bbc news is, in California, between 0300 & 0600; the only time that I've seen it go longer is f/ Ms. Bhutto. In the East that's 0600 & 0900. If Greenwich is eight hours ahead, that's three plus eight = eleven. Are you claiming that a day after the crash they were not yet sure who had gone to the hospital? When I was watching, they were reporting it as "breaking news".

Why would they wait ten hours, twelve hours, twenty hours, to report the crash? Did all of the networks in both nations ignore it?

Per mathematics, by the time it was reported, it had been nearly noon in London.

This leaves me very confused.

Further, my constant plea is to have more description of the wings in the article. That is my objective, really. If we disagree about the time, well, okay. Really, more wing. That, I am not competent to write. Please.

Thank You,

[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 02:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

03:00-06:00 western time (california) on 17 January equals 11:00-14:00 GMT (UK) on 17 January. Crash occurred at 12:43 GMT (UK). Therefore it was perfectly feasible for it to be reported live. As for the wings, if you can find the information which complies with Wikipedia:Five pillars and Wikipedia:Not then post it. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 15:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem with that is, he saw this coverage on the morning of the 18th. User:Hopiakuta, is it possible that there was coverage also on the 17th that you missed, and the statement that the coverage was 'live' on the 18th simply meant the reporting itself was live (rather than being taped hours before) not that the event itself had just happened? —Random832 16:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Per this section on User:hopiakuta's talk page, he is most concerned with a description of the wings, rather than the time of occurence: "Further, my constant plea is to have more description of the wings in the article. That is my objective, really. If we disagree about the time, well, okay. Really, more wing. That, I am not competent to write. Please." Regards, -- Flyguy649 ^talk 16:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

rotfl! He's obviously got the censored feed. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 20:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

So, I am prohibitted from advocating article content, or responding to libel?

[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 03:24, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Somebody explain what wings has do to with anything - it had one one on each side like all 777s! The port wing was damaged when the landing gear was pushed upwards, nothing really to do with the cause of the incident. The text can be corrected with the factual detail of what actually happened when the AAIB report is published (a verifable source as distinct from media speculation). Probably best not to make guesses and edit the sequence of events until then. MilborneOne (talk) 21:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

600 feet and 2 miles

The AAIB report mentions that the power loss occured at "600 ft and 2 miles". Note that as the airplane was in flight, these are nautical miles, not statute miles. -- Flyguy649 ^talk 13:51, 19 January 2008 (UTC) Might be worth to point out that ~600FT AGL/2nm is consistent/within tolerance with/of a 3 degree glideslope for a standard ILS approach and thus indicates a proper approach up to that point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.104.0 (talk) 22:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Agree, but the BBC are quoting it as though it is statute miles. Mjroots (talk) 13:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

And confusingly, although the plane is flying, I believe the 600 ft will be above ground (not above sea level) as the plane was on final approach. Hopefully the AAIB will be more clear in their next update. -- Flyguy649 ^talk 15:34, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

As far as WP goes, unless you can point us to a place where the AAIB defines such a default, it's contentious and should therefore be reported exactly as they said and not interpreted. That's why I changed it from nm to m yesterday. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 20:42, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Have you looked at any of the AAIB bulletins - they usually have a glossary or terms in each report. I can't check myself as my old pooter takes a dislike to PDF files and just freezes. Mjroots (talk) 21:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The AAIB glosaary gives nm to be the abbreviation for nautical miles. As this abbreviation was not given in the initial report, and nor was the term nautical miles used, I believe the common use of miles as statute miles should be assumed for the time being. regards, Lynbarn (talk) 00:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a bit like someone in the US reading an article from the UK about a pint of liquid and assuming it means 473 ml rather than 568 ml just because Imperial pint is not specified. The aviation industry uses nautical miles by default when they refer to miles and they tend to specify statute miles. For example, the aviation media, such as this article from Flight International interprets the same bulletin as 2 nautical miles. The argument is not major, as the difference in distance is not huge. This will likely be clarified Sunday or Monday with the release of a further report. -- Flyguy649 ^talk 02:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

British Airways Flight 38

British Airways Flight 38 is, presumably, a scheduled flight which flies every day. Unless they now withdraw the number (presumably unlikely as this wasn't a fatal crash, the article title is rather incorrect. The same goes for all articles on plane crashes which use flight number.

The lead says:

British Airways Flight 38 (callsign Speedbird 38) was a scheduled flight between Beijing Capital International Airport and London Heathrow Airport[2] that crash landed at 12:42 (GMT) on 17 January 2008 on approach to Heathrow.

No. British Airways Flight 38 is a scheduled flight between Beijing Capital International Airport and London Heathrow Airport. A plane flying as BA 38 crashed on 17 Jan; that doesn't mean that the crash is suddenly the primary use of "British Airways Flight 38". --kingboyk (talk) 23:43, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

You are partially right but on Wikipedia the agreed terminology (by concensus) for aircraft accidents and incident articles is to use the form as used in this article. If you disagree you can propose a move of this article and all the other hundred or so accident articles. Please read Wikipedia:MOVE particularly related to moves that may be controversial. MilborneOne (talk) 23:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with User:MilborneOne. The reason we can accept British Airways Flight 38 as an article is because: i) It prevents longer article names, having to specify a date etc. and ii) The likelihood of Flight 38 having another accident on another day is pretty damn unlikely. CycloneNimrod (talk) 00:02, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Autopilot

Can anyone clarify in the article the role of the autopilot? Reports say that the autopilot was engaged. Does this mean it was landing automatically or does it mean that the plane was assisting the pilot? I think this is a significant point and should be able to be answered by someone with relevant knowledge of flying the plane without speculating. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.128.12.105 (talk) 00:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

It could mean that only one autopilot was engaged. If that was the case, then the pilot flying would be required to disconnect the AP at no less than 200 ft. ABGL and make a manual landing. However, if all three APs were engaged, then an autoland was the planned and operating scenario. In either event, the AP(s) would be tracking the ILS and the autothrottles would be engaged too. It is also possible for the autothrottles to be engaged, to maintained a selected IAS, but the pilot could otherwise be flying the plane manually.

I made one full autoland at Heathrow in 1997, in the B-777. All went well until the second half of the runway rollout. The plane began to drift to the left (it is supposed to track runway centerline). I let it go for a few seconds, to see if it would correct back, but I finally had to disconnect the APs and manually steer it back to centerline. EditorASC (talk) 19:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe it was the autothrottle that was engaged. It basically maintains a constant speed and frees the pilots from manually controlling the throttles. I'll see about adding to the article. -- Flyguy649 ^talk 02:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Similar devices exist in some cars. Toby Douglass (talk) 11:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I've found a couple of useful references, which say that the autothrottle and autopilot were engaged and ILS was being used, if I read them correctly: Hunt for fatal flaw of Flight 38 Landing at Heathrow 99.128.12.105 (talk) 20:03, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

That Times article looks good. Why not be bold and add the info to the article? Mjroots (talk) 21:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The 777-200s have autoland. For a useful and easy explanatiion see the Boeing link: [2]. Such systems, even in fully certified operational aircraft, are not without their snags, e.g. [3] Martinevans123 (talk) 22:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Still a current event?

Is this still a current event now that the aircraft has been removed. It's more a recent event now. Mjroots (talk) 22:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree I have removed the current event tag. MilborneOne (talk) 22:24, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I would stick with caution and leave it for a couple of days - editing of the article hasn't slowed down a great deal and edit conflicts are still likely - that, after all, is the purpose of that template. -- Roleplayer (talk) 16:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

OK - not sure that it has any effect on the random sprinkling of facts and or opinions and theories on the page! MilborneOne (talk) 17:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if this is current practice, is it worth keeping the notice until the article leaves the In the news section on the main page? -- Roleplayer (talk) 01:45, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Template:Current -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 21:59, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Article has now dropped off the current news section on the main page. Time to remove the tag? Mjroots (talk) 21:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Write Off?

No one in British Airways has states this plane will be a write off, I appreciate that it is extremely probable, however, as we don't know the full extent of the damage, can the article be altered to reflect the fact that the story is coming from people outside the airline, and whilst being knowledgeable do not actually know. Benny45boy (talk) 11:07, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I dont think the article says it is a write off - just that if it is declared (presumably by the insurers rather than BA) it would be the first 777 hull-loss. I know it is speculation but if I remember it was added to stop people adding that it was a write-off. MilborneOne (talk) 12:46, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the article started off saying that it will definitely be written off, then we erred on the side of caution because that needs to be officially declared by the powers that be before we can say that. All experts in the popular media are in agreement though that there is little chance of salvaging the hull, which is why the article is written as it is for now. -- Roleplayer (talk) 16:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I removed all references under the auspices of Wikipedia:Not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_crystal_ball. What we have is the organisations who have most knowledge about the situation saying nothing, and a report, since removed, in the Seattle Times saying that it is. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 16:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

But the statement that *IF* G-YMMM is a writeoff, it would be significant as the first 777 write off is, in and of itself, not a prediction or presumption and should be left in. 218.213.244.187 (talk) 03:39, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It still falls foul of Wikipedia:Not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_crystal_ball. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 11:30, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Reference lost

A recend edit has removed this reference source Flight Global - I understand why the edit was made, but can't see where to reinsert the reference within the article. Mjroots (talk) 21:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

APU

The article states: The jet's auxiliary power unit, which is very rarely used in flight, was still running when the plane was on the ground, indicating that main power had been lost on the approach. I know the reference states the same thing, but it's factually wrong. The APU can be running for various reasons in flight (and in fact some operators always use the APU during some stages of the flight), and in any case a running APU is certainly not evidence that "main power" had been lost. Rpvdk (talk) 23:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Well if true it does discredit the fuel starvation theories above. -Rolypolyman (talk) 04:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

the Heathrow-Glider's APU could have had a separate fuel reserve, does anyone know that detail about a 777? CorvetteZ51 (talk) 13:41, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about 777s specifically but on every aircraft I've flown the APU takes its fuel from the same supply as the engines. The problem I have with the quoted text is that it presents the running APU as convincing evidence that "main power" had been lost, which is complete nonsense. -- Rpvdk (talk) 14:36, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

There are considerable differences between the APU and main engines (size, power, fuel-filter type, feed line length etc. etc.) It's quite possible to postulate a fuel event (water contamination?) that could take out 1 and 2 but not the CPU. But we're guessing, guys. Halfmast (talk) 14:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

From what I've read on PPRuNe, I agree (I'm just an interested layman). I was unhappy with it when I copyedited last night as it creates a precedent for every other wacky rumour to be included. I'll remove. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 12:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record, the majority of airliner designs feature an APU which is only suited for use on the ground and their use whilst in the air may even be prohibited by the airline and/or the manufacturer. Design of a specialised intake duct (as opposed to just a hole lying perpendicular to high-speed airflow (see Bernoulli effect) but perfectly fine while stationary) and a turbine which can handle the higher airflow rates of flight (rather than simply respond by over-revving and burning out the electrics...) is prohibitively expensive for an item which becomes redundant as soon as the main engines are running, so most manufacturers do not bother. As it happens, the 777 is fitted with a RAT (ram air turbine) device which auto-deploys in flight to generate electrical power, in an emergency. EatYerGreens (talk) 19:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

The RAT also supplies hydraulic pressure to essential flight controls, which get their hydraulic power from the center hydraulic system. EditorASC (talk) 20:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Interesting comments, but our APU article does say, "While some APUs may not be startable while the aircraft is in flight, ETOPS compliant APUs must be flight-startable at up to the aircraft service ceiling" -- which of course would apply to the 777. Our article is not well-sourced, however, so should be taken with a grain of salt. Fletcher (talk) 19:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

In this case, the article is accurate. APUs must be able to start at all possible flight altitudes on ETOPs aircraft. They have to be periodically tested during scheduled flights and then the results entered into the logbook. The APU fuel source is one of the main fuel tanks (I believe it was the left main tank, on the 777). EditorASC (talk) 20:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

BA editing article

I noticed that someone had removed the bulk of the summary of a BBC News page detailing complaints by Mark Tamburro about poor treatment by ground staff. A POV paragraph had been substituted detailing good treatment by ground staff. I've reverted the earlier text but kept the pro-BA paragraph - considering deleting it as it has no citation. Scottwh (talk) 00:49, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Well done, just because it is criticising BA doesn't mean it isn't true. It is also verifiable. Now, what was that about WP:COI? Mjroots (talk) 01:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I've flagged that pro-Ba statement as unreferenced. If not referenced by tomorrow this evening it should be removed. Mjroots (talk) 01:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm honestly not sure complaints by one person are notable, sourced or not. We're an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. BA had a lot to deal with that day, and it's possible this guy fell through the cracks. Having worked in Custormer servic most of my adult life, it's also possible this guy was an obnoxious, self-centered jerk whose real complaint is that BA didn't bow to his every need. The fact that there don't seem to be reports from other passengers that back of his claims is certianly interesting. However, it the report remains, BA would certianly be right to release there version of the complaints publically, and we could at least provide a sentence on there version, and link to the full release. Of course, it should not stay without sources. - BillCJ (talk) 01:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

There lies the problem, Tamburro's complaint, whilst not necessarily having any substance, is verifiable. However, Betty Tootell describes similar problems in her book All Four Engines Have Failed which deals with the Jakarta Incident. If BA release their version, it can be included as a verified piece of info. They probably won't though. Mjroots (talk) 08:59, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I'vr removed the pro-BA statement as no ref has been provided.Mjroots (talk) 17:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

A small minority of people complaining is not worthy of entry into an encyclopedia imo. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 22:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Second, not third BA 777 incident

If you look at the provided references, and in particular the Aviation Safety Network one, you'll note that this is the second BA 777 accident, not the third. The only reference artcile that mentions a third only does so in the title. The body of the article mentions nothing about a third. (Darthveda (talk) 19:29, 22 January 2008 (UTC))

It is the third, and the other two incidents are both mentioned in the Telegraph article:-

BA was involved in the only fatality in the history of the 777 which took place on Sep 5 2001 at Denver International Airport.

In June 2003 an access door fell off a BA Boeing 777.

The crash of BA038 makes it three. Mjroots (talk) 19:37, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Is the serious incident to BAW 777 G-YMME on 10 June 2004 a different one to that listed above as June 2003! [4]. MilborneOne (talk) 20:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, different date, a/c unknown. There will be an AAIB report on their website about it somewhere amongst the monthly bulletins. Mjroots (talk) 20:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Will that be four then if we find a reference! MilborneOne (talk) 21:32, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

No, three - refuelling incident in Formal Report 2/2007, the loss of an access door in June 2003 (will be reported in a monthly bulletin on AAIB website), and the crash at LHR last week. I don't know of any others involving BA triple 7s. Mjroots (talk) 22:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry didnt I just give a link to a AAIB serious incident report for a British Airways 777 G-YMME on 10 June 2004 (fuel leak from a missing purge door on take off) that must be four (your 3 plus that one is four). MilborneOne (talk) 22:20, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Oops! I stand corrected! Yep, will be four then. just need to find AAIB ref for the June 2003 door coming off incident then text can be changed.Mjroots (talk) 22:55, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Think I've found it - G-VIIU - cant check myself as my ancient pooter will freeze if I open it. Mjroots (talk) 23:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

G-VIIU link is a minor incident on 8 Feburary 2003 at LHR to do with being hit by a taxying 747 causing minor damage to left elevator trailing edge and left stabliser skin. MilborneOne (talk) 23:21, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't object to it being described as BA's second major incident as the access door incident seems to be quite a minor problem. Mjroots (talk) 00:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I suppose it depends where the access door fell off (in air? on ground?) and the potential for harm that could have caused? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Buckethed (talk • contribs) 09:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The AAIB did not consider it to be anything other than a minor incident. MilborneOne (talk) 20:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Pictures

Some pictures here -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 21:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions for Future Structure

As this article morphs away from a "current event" to an encylopedia article, I suggest the Initial Response and Disruption sections be deleted, with anything important moved to other sections. Arguably they should be deleted now, as this is Wikipedia not Wikinews. It's just not important that the crash caused delays (that seems obvious) or, for example, that a passenger was whining about the lack of refreshments post-crash. Some comments under intial Response should be moved to Investigation.

Under Investigation, I deleted the credit to the photographer who took a few pictures during the approach. I tip my hat to him for his good pics, but his name isn't really relvant to the investigation, nor is his affiliation with Airliners.net (which read like a plug). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.152.245.18 (talk) 17:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree - do it :-) and reduce the Statements section to John Cowards direct quotes in the Mirror [5] which I'm surprised are not already included. btw having read what the whiner said - it was clear that it was standard medical precaution for potential internal injuries. The only minor fault is that BA staff really should have explained it (if indeed they didn't). -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 20:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

A lot of the detail in the article was important when it was a current event but I suspect big chunks of it can now be culled and summarised. MilborneOne (talk) 20:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I've no objection to culling and summarising, as long as all references are kept. Mjroots (talk) 22:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to keep them if the text they support has gone, or would you like then placed in the External links section ? Cheers -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 23:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

What I meant was that any editing and summarising should take careful note of the main fact that the reference is to, and that main fact should be kept, along with its reference. Mjroots (talk) 10:06, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean where a reference cited multiple times - eg removing Willie Walsh's statement but leaving the ref for the other 2 cites - "14. ^ a b c "BA 777 report this weekend", Business Travel News & Advice, ABTN, 18 January 2008. Retrieved on 18 January 2008." ?

I mean all references. By all means summarise if necessary, but if a reference is given, check it out and see what main fact is being referenced, then ensure the reference is kept. Willie Walsh's statement may need to be kept in full as it is unusual for the top man to comment so positively and so soon after the event. Mjroots (talk) 18:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

That prevents an effective cleanup. For instance the BA statement isn't worth keeping - it says nothing notable imo. I disagree about WW statement - it was just standard public relations speak afaic. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 21:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I posted earlier anonymously (couldn't remember my password at work). I tried to organize the Investigation section a little better to reflect ongoing theories, and moved some of the speculation out of Initial Response which didn't seem appropriate, as it's no longer that "initial." I got cold feet about deleting things others have worked on.  :) However, I continue to think Wikipedia should not be just reproducing news reports, and much of the stuff currently in Initial Response and Disruption will seem very extraneous a year from now.--Fritter (talk) 03:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Just had a tidy of the disruption section. And moved the passenger comment to a new section MilborneOne (talk) 12:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Good work, both :-) - thanks -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 15:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the disruption section should be kept. The Grayrigg derailment article started off very much as a current event, and is now rated at GA. It has a disruption section still. Mjroots (talk) 09:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I dont think anybody has said the disruption section should be removed - previous comment followed a tidy up to remove recentism and make the points clearer - OK as it is. MilborneOne (talk) 12:28, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm surprised that the Grayrigg derailment article achieved GA keeping the incorrect initial news reports. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 20:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Until you changed it I would have said it can be removed as not really notable - there's been an accident, it disrupts things, so what? - but I'm happy with it, in it's present form. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 20:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Not out of fuel

It was reported on BBC Radio 2 news at 12 midday that AAIB investigators have ruled out lack of fuel/fuel starvation. Engines were confirmed to be working, but didn't respond to a demand for increased thrust. Mjroots (talk) 12:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I put the text of AAIB update report straight into the article. MJD.81.96.78.18 (talk) 13:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC).

Forgive the hairsplitting but this doesn't rule out fuel starvation, which could mean the plane had enough fuel, but for whatever reason not enough was supplied to the engines. As is clear from the most recent quote they are still looking at the fuel system. You are correct that running out of fuel is ruled out, and I deleted a minor sentence in speculation mentioning this. --Fritter (talk) 03:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikinews

This link adds nothing to the article that is not already covered in more reliable references, is inaccurate and is not fully sourced.

Unless there is some policy or guideline which states that we must promote Wikinews, I consider that it comes under the Wikipedia:External links guideline which states "Links should be restricted to the most relevant and helpful. A lack of external links, or a small number of external links is not by itself a reason to add external links.". -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 22:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

There is indeed such a policy guidline, sorry. From Wikipedia:Sister projects#Guidlines: "Wikipedia encourages links to sister projects... when possible." ALthough it mentions lack of excess, it is clear that it is not in excess where the article is directly relevant to this one, dealing with the same subject matter. I would interpret 'excess' (although we may end up argueing this one, since I admit it is a bit ambiguous) as meaning articles with only vague links to the article, i.e. something on Iraq that mentioned George W. Bush would be innapropriate on Bush's article. As to 'inaccurate' and 'not fully sourced' all material there is covered by the sources there - as they state it - with two minor exceptions, the standard fuel amounts carried, which is dealt with on the talk page and is common knowledge, and John Coward's name, which is again fairly well known and in any event covered in a previous story, accessable via the cat for the flight. If you have issues with its accuracy, though, please go accross and raise them in detail so that we can take a collective look. Blood Red Sandman ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 12:25, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Presumably the purpose of the Wikinews link was not to use it as a source or reference, but merely to draw attention to another Wikimedia Foundation project. I don't see what's wrong with that. --RFBailey (talk) 18:02, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree with RFBailey so have added it back. Adambro (talk) 18:25, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

And it's the polite thing to do, too - as all the Wikinews articles[[6]] link to this one...Zir (talk) 15:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

My apologies, although I think the WP guideline giving prominence to one news source over others is a breach of WP:Neutral point of view. My reading of excess is repeating of the same interwiki link in an article. The report states that it is "the first hull loss of a 777". I can't see that in the sources as at - [7] - it stood out because we dealt with the issue here some time ago. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 19:51, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Aircraft "written off", plus a bunch of crazy references

Accident section / last paragraph says: The 150-tonne aircraft sustained significant damage and has since been written off. This is followed by no less than 6 references, of which there is no reliable source that says the aircraft was written off. It was a waste of time to read through the references which did not apply to the sentence they were attached to. However, the Telegraph newspaper has said the 777 was written off. I don't have time to format a reference right now, but maybe someone else may want to do it. It could also be included in the main 777 article which carries a brief summary of the event. Thanks, Lester 09:27, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought we were waiting for something more official then a daily newspaper to state that the aircraft had been written off, like BA or the Insurance company. MilborneOne (talk) 09:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I've reinstated the two BBC references that got deleted. They are relevant because they are part of the news story that was reported when the accident was a current event, and the BBC is a reliable source. Agree that the aircraft has not been officially written off yet and the article should state "probably a write off" or similar until it is official. Mjroots (talk) 10:12, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes apologies I removed the refs in error - probably caused by having to many refs on top of each other. Perhaps in time we should remove some of the multiple refs. MilborneOne (talk) 10:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

If they are no longer needed to support statements, then they are not relevent and should be removed. A lot of the early news reports contained inaccuracies and have been superceeded by reports with the correct infomation. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 17:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought that it was about time an announcement had been made, so I had a look through British Airways company announcements released under the London Stock Exchanges Regulatory News Service (RNS) which is, by necessity, a highly reliable news source, and found the following confirmation -

"01 February 2008

Interim Management Statement

.

.

Following the incident at Heathrow in January involving one of our Boeing 777s, the aircraft has been written off by underwriters and the insurance claim agreed in full." [8]

I've modified this and the other 2 related articles. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 17:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Well done! To think that this was AfD'd as being non-notable too! :-/ Mjroots (talk) 17:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, as I said it's simply a case of waiting for the information from official sources. A wait of a few weeks is nothing when the quality of the encyclopedia is at stake, and is the reason why I'm less than tolerent about speculation <g> ! The fact that it's a hull loss has nothing to do with notability because that was already conferred by the existing reliably sourced news articles. The Afd proposer didn't understand basic WP policy, so it was never going to succeed (unless of course an Admin happened to ignore policy). -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 17:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It's been much easier doing the MS Riverdance article. I've been left in peace to get on with it (famous last words!), quite surprising really, as the MS Explorer article saw plenty of interest at the time, despite the remote location of the event. Mjroots (talk) 20:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Minor point - the Riverdance need colons in the times per Wikipedia:Mos#Times (which I find is worth a re/browse in full). I was going do it but got frusted by the inline refs and text intermingled - are you using some editing tool which makes it easy for you to distinguish text from code ? That's the reason why I prefer refs to be formatted diferently to text, to distinguish them. I haven't really taken any notice of Riverdance - the name meant nothing to me until I read the article. I seem to have missed all the news reports about the recent bad weather. Cheers -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 22:05, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Dubious

In the Speculation section, the comment about Gordon Brown's vehicle "jamming" the aircraft should be better supported, or deleted. The source seems to be an individual on an Australian talk radio show, and there's no evidence he's a reliable source. Frankly, it is a crackpot idea. Even if Gordon Brown's car does have jamming equipment on board, it might conceivably affect the aircraft's navigational equipment, but I don't see how it could disrupt the engines' FADEC or fuel supply causing them to fail to produce sufficient thrust. Let's consider deleting this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fritter (talk • contribs) 17:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Whilst not doubting the sincerity or good faith of User:BringItOn TheAteam, I fully agree Fritter. This classic might one day feature in the Conspiracy Theory article. But until it does I suggest it belongs firmly in the Encyclopedia of Australian Radio Talk Shows. Although, we can't really prove it's utter rubbish, can we? I'm just glad that poor Mr Al Fayed did not have any friends or relations on that flight. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:14, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

It is clear from the section that it is speculation, and it has been speculated as a possible cause. IMHO nothing needs changing yet. Once the final AAIB report comes out the whole article will probably need rewriting as the majority of the speculated causes will have been discounted, if not all of them. The speculation has been widely reported, as show by a quick yahoo search of heathrow jamming crash. Mjroots (talk) 07:12, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Even though it is speculation, Wikipedia still requires reliable sources. Anyone can speculate the crash was caused by space aliens testing their new Disruptor Ray in preparation for an invasion of Earth -- that doesn't mean it should appear on Wikipedia. The "jamming" theory is not much more plausible. A jammer works in the radio or microwave part of the EM spectrum, depending on what it's trying to jam. Aircraft engines are not controlled by radio, of course, but are hardwired into the plane's electrical system. In order to disrupt them you would need some sort of EMP weapon, which might or might not work, depending on how well the FADEC and associated equipment is shielded. But an EMP weapon would have caused massive other damage to the aircraft's electronics, as well as leaving a swath of electronic destruction to the surrounding area. I've seen no evidence of such. Further, your yahoo search results do not support the theory. Most use the word "jam" in other contexts, referring to traffic jams and the like. I did find reference to electronic jamming on a few sites, but only in reader comments to an news article -- not a reliable source. Interestingly, they seemed worded the same way, suggesting one person with this crackpot theory pasted his speculation to many comment boards. I'll give it a little more time and would like to hear other feedback, but then I think the jamming comment should be deleted. Fritter (talk) 19:58, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I vote delete it ASAP. There is a difference between informed speculation and rumormongering, and this is clearly not "speculation" but the latter. --Sam (talk) 20:24, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I was going to try to get a handle on notability and reliability by listening to the broadcast. I was not available when I looked at the time as they issue them about 4 days later. I don't like having stupid ideas on Wikipedia either, but unfortunatly their rules seem lax on the issue. At least it's in the speculation section - although I wasn't aware of the subtleties between speculation and rumourmongering. Perhaps it should be renamed to informed speculation ? -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 21:25, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I deleted it. Wikipedia's rules on reliable sources seem straightforward enough. The source was Malcolm Stuart on the Derryn Hinch program. I'm not familiar with either gentleman but Hinch's page says he is "controversial and outspoken; by his own account he has been sacked no less than fourteen times during his career in the media." Maybe he interviews only reliable people or maybe not. But the theory seems to contradict, not only the laws of physics IMHO, but the AAIB reports that indicate there was no apparent failure of the aircraft's avionics and control systems -- which you'd think would be more vulnerable to electronic warfare than any other component. I googled and could not find any source on this that was not an anonymous user comment. See also Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources. If anyone wants to revert, please be sure to provide such a "high quality reliable source." Fritter (talk) 02:09, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Having searched, Malcolm Stuart is not verifiable as a source, therefore fails WP:Reliable source on that and WP:Verifiability#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources. The show is now available on line - MP3 (20Mb) +1:55. If anyone wants an authoritative ruling, asking on WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard is the place - if doing so, please crosslink. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 11:26, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Gordon Brown's vehicle has been excluded from being a cause, also he emphatically wasn't in the vehicle at the time as has been previously quoted in the article - at least common sense has seen it deleted and the Daily Mirror article disregarded in this respect. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7396899.stm 78.105.161.231 (talk) 19:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Loss of PFC triplex redundancy in software development process

In Issue No. 1204 of the popular UK satirical magazine "Private Eye", dated 22 February - 6 March 2008, an unsourced story appearing in the "In The Back" section, speculated that the crash was caused by software failure. This could have arisen, it was suggested, from the decision by Boeing to abandon "triplex redundancy" of the primary flight computers (PFCs) (intended to exclude common software faults), allowing instead for the provider GEC to arrange for three in-house independent software teams. The commonality of design process between teams, however, meant that true independence was "irreparably compromised”. Eventually the three teams became one and all thoughts of Triplex were forgotten. It was also claimed that there may have been shortcomings in the rigour of the software testing protocol. Thus a common dormant software failure may have lain hidden in all three of the aircraft's PFCs. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:12, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

That's pretty interesting, but needs better sourcing before including it in the article, even in the Speculation section. The original source could well be someone from Airbus or another company that would benefit from making Boeing look bad. Also the most recent official reporting does not seem to indicate the computers failed - "no anomalies in the major aircraft systems" Fritter (talk) 17:42, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

It seems unlikely this will ever make it to the article unless proved to be true, and maybe not even then. In any case it also seems a little far-fetched that a double PFC handover could have occurred and not been immediately apparent from initial black box analysis. But it's hard to know exactly what level of analysis "major aircraft systems" is meant to indicate. At time of writing the PE story looks the least unlikely bizarre speculation, but one that has only emerged because it is unsourced. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:52, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Speculation Section

This section was added when there was no accident investigation report, and much of it has been discredited by the emerging facts. I reckon it's time to trim it drastically or remove it altogether - I favour the former: just make a note that there was the inevitable speculation. Anyone think otherwise? Should it stay as is, go completely, or be reduced? TrulyBlue (talk) 09:08, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I've got mixed feelings about the issue. Although I don't like uninformed speculation, in a climate of so many talking head and instant experts, I think that a valuable service can be performed on WP, articles of which rank highly in search engine results, by keeping speculation on the article, clearly segregated, for posterity to allow the majority of people, themselves lacking detailed knowledge, to determine who is talking sense (informed speculation) and who is making wild rumours, perhaps in desperate bid for self publicity. I like the current format where as each of the rumours are debunked by the AAIB, a sentence stating so is added. Can a greater good be performed here ? -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 10:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I take your point, John, but is it WP's role to educate (which I think is what you're suggesting) or simply to inform? Would it not be sufficient for Wikipedia to speak with an authoritative voice without referring to the false reports? In any case, the speculation section (including de-bunking, I admit) is as large as the text on the reports, and precedes it, which I feel give the various random theories undue weight. Happy to be out-voted here, but I think the discussion needs to be had. TrulyBlue (talk) 10:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi, if the speculation section is to be trimmed down or possibly even removed, it would at least make sense to highlight and summarize the major initial speculations and possibly even link to an earlier revision of the WP page with the full speculation section, indicating that initial results from the investigation depreceated these initial speculations --Parallelized (talk) 10:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Even if, but at least until, the cause(s) can be clearly proven in the public domain, speculation, both well-informed and ill-informed is bound to continue. There is certainly a case for trimming, but I agree a list of possible causes and reasons for rejection remains very useful. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It is worth waiting to see if an official and widely accepted theory comes to prevail. If one does, we can summarize the speculation in a paragraph or less, deleting all but the most prominent rival theories. I don't think a compendium on everything that's been said about the crash is needed -- that might be something for an aviation enthusiast to put on his web page. But suppose the final theory is ambiguous, and that some (reliable sources) dispute it. In that case it would be useful to have the competing theories on the page to compare them against the official report. Fritter (talk) 00:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The speculation section may well be disproportionately large now, but that will change once the final report is released by the AAIB. We will just have to wait for that one.Mjroots (talk) 07:01, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

AAIB Special Bulletin S1-2008

The wording in the article: ...stated that there was "no evidence of a mechanical defect, birdstrike or take-in of ice", (with the quote itself rendered in italics) is perplexing. I have downloaded the PDF from the AAIB site and I find a subtly different wording and a narrower context to these words, on page 4 of 6:

The engines, their control systems and the fuel system were the focus of a detailed examination.

Engines

Examination of the engines indicated no evidence of a mechanical defect or ingestion of birds or ice.

So that wording applied just to the engines (birds or ice can strike other areas of an aircraft with significant effects) and ingestion of has morphed into take-in. The PDF moves on to the other systems and re-uses the phrase "no mechanical defects were found" for each one, in turn, where that was the case.

I have no strong objection to the current section wording and merely request that the quote marks and italics be removed from that line, such that it becomes clearly the editor's phrasing and personal interpretation of what the special bulletin said. Otherwise people would think that it was the AAIB author who used the odd expression take-in (as opposed to intake). EatYerGreens (talk) 21:48, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Done. But you seem like a very thoughtful writer -- the BE BOLD guideline was written for people like you. Fletcher (talk) 00:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Belated thanks for the edit and the encouragement (but I'd prefer to get WP:competent before I get WP:bold, lol). I'm already slightly wary of the guidelines pages - I get sucked down to a wikidepth of 6 or 8 and, next thing I know, the dawn chorus starts... ;-) EatYerGreens (talk) 00:36, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Fuel tank debris

As a second point of improvement to this section, it needs to say that the special bulletin refers to fuel tank debris, which it describes in detail:-

Some small items of debris were discovered in the following locations:
1. Right main tank - a red plastic sealant scraper approximately 10cm x 3cm under the suction inlet screen.
2. Left main tank, water scavenge inlet - a piece of black plastic tape, approximately 5cm square; a piece of brown paper of the same size and shape, and a piece of yellow plastic.
3. Right centre tank override pump - a small piece of fabric or paper found in the guillotine valve of the pump housing.
4. Left centre tank water scavenge jet pump - small circular disc, 6mm in diameter, in the motive flow chamber.
The relevance of this debris is still being considered.

Obviously, all that needs to be abbreviated somewhat, such as The report also mentions the discovery of several items of debris in four separate locations within the fuel tank system and associated pumps. The largest of these was a plastic sealant scraper 10cm by 3cm found under the suction inlet screen of the right main tank. However, the relevance of the debris is still being considered. If anyone finds 'sealant scraper' to be needlessly alarmist or potentially libellous then change it to '...piece of plastic 10cm by...' EatYerGreens (talk) 21:48, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Nothing libellous about stating the facts, particularly when the AAIB report 12th May 2008 says "Restrictions in the fuel system between the aircraft fuel tanks and each of the engine HP pumps, resulting in reduced fuel flows, is suspected." Having bits of extraneous plastic floating around in the fuel tanks, almost certainly "lost" during assembly, is quite frankly par for the course. Many in the industry have predicted just such a serious event for many years - call it a culture thing but let your workers in your assembly plant in casual clothes and you will always have a problem with foreign object debris - 100% inspection is never 100% and is never a cure. 78.105.161.231 (talk) 15:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

New report out

I have no time to work on this right now, but if anyone is watching this article and wants to work on it, then I have written about the latest update at Wikinews. The article, with full sources for use here including the AAIB release, is at British Airways Flight 38 suffered low fuel pressure; investigation continues. Blood Red Sandman ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 21:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I've added a subsection to the article, with a link to the AAIB webpage where the actual report can be accessed. I can't view it myself as it's a PDF file. BBC news are reporting that the temperature of the fuel in the tanks was below -70C, inferring that it is a contributory factor. Mjroots (talk) 06:44, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Good work, thanks. I haven't seen the BBC report but it's at odds with the AAIB who said the fuel was good for -57C - min. recorded fuel temperature was -37C. Dunno if you want to try Foxit PDF reader - [9] - light on resorces. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 13:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

the article has numerous errors and misinterpretations (again - Talk:British_Airways_Flight_38#Wikinews). Why do the authors think that they know better that the AAIB, one of the most professional and highly regarded crash investigation organisations in the world ? The article would not be considered a reliable source under the Wikipedia guidelines, and it is only included in the encyclopedia due to the favourable treatment given to Wikipedia sister projects. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 14:17, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll not risk the PDF reader. Pooter is due for replacement as soon as I sell the house and release some capital. Should happen anytime soon. Mjroots (talk) 14:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Everything in the article is sourced back except a few known details; namely that the co-pilot was flying and was later highly praised (albeit he just did his job IMO but scary enough for him) and that the 777 was the first to suffer a hull loss. The rest has been picked out from the sources provided, so anyone who wishes to produce better sources disputing this feel free and corrections will be carried out and noted. Blood Red Sandman ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 16:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Then the sources used conflict with the AAIB. Why are you using them ? Please stop spreading misinformation. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 18:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

After re-reading the AAIB report more carefuly, I am inclined to agree exactly what the report says was misrepresented, although I have changed that by a little rewording to clarify what is and isn't 'official'. I, too, doubt the veracity that the fuel became more viscous, but then it is the duty of a news site to report these suggestions and allow the reader to decide; I wouldn't support their addition to an encyclopedia. Mjroots, would you like me to e-mail you the text of the PDF? Blood Red Sandman ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 20:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Opinion changed on the vicosity problem, as pointed out below, Flight's expert seems to think it's credible, so maybe it is a serious possibblity. Still moot here as speculation belongs in the news but not here. Blood Red Sandman ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 22:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

May 12th Bulletin

This bulletin is now mentioned in the article (see above), although not the fact that it refers to the low temperatures through which the aircraft flew. The investigation states that the fuel at all times remained well above its freezing point, but some informed speculation is now that low temperatures caused the fuel to become too viscous for delivery to the engines at the required rate. I have refrained from putting this into the article because I do not know for sure that jet fuel, unlike water, thickens substantially as it approaches its freezing point. If that is the case, someone who knows that fact might add it in. I presume that fuel temperature is monitored (since the reports state the minimum temperature the fuel attained), so it should be straightforward to measure the viscosity of the fuel sample at the temperature it was upon final approach and see whether it is too gloopy for the fuel pumps - AG, Stockport. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.53.69.150 (talk) 17:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for holding back. Any sources need to meet Wikipedia:Verifiability policy and WP:Reliable sources guidelines. WP:Original research is not permitted. imo the speculators can't be informed because the AIB said that the fuel never got anywhere near freezing. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 18:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

If jet fuel thickens significantly as it gets within 20-30 degrees of its freezing point then that fact is relevant and will be well known to experts, so it would deserve to go in (and is not original research). I don't know if that's the case so it's not for me to edit, but one of the speculators is David Learmount, operations and safety editor at Flight International magazine, who says in the Daily Telegraph (London, May 13th): "There might have been an issue with viscosity – with the fuel becoming thicker and flowing less well." In view of Learmount's position and expertise, that quote might itself be worth putting in, and the fact that the May 12th report mentions the low external temperature suggests the investigators are looking in this direction, but my own taste is to wait a little longer and we shall know for sure - AG, Stockport.

Mr. Learmont may well be a reliable source, but he is clearly speculating, and I think we should try to confirm his observation with other sources. It seems to be a simple question of chemistry. If the viscosity of jet fuel increases above its freezing point, making it "gloopy" as you suggested above, then you would think jet fuel would be rated in terms of its "gloopy point" rather than its freezing point, since it could not be safely used below that temperature. After a web search, I cannot find any information suggesting this is true. For example, this page has fairly detailed information about Boeing's fuel temp guidelines, including about the 777, but doesn't say anything about fuel becoming dangerously viscous above its freezing point. In fact, it says the fuel temp warning light comes on only 3 degrees C above the freezing point. Note also the pour point -- the temp below which fuel cannot be effectively pumped -- is below the freezing point (as fuel does not become instantly solid at the freezing point). Learmont has an interesting theory, but it's also notable the Bulletin did not seem to mention the viscosity issue, despite mentioning the cold temperatures through which the aircraft passed. Fletcher (talk) 23:21, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe that's because bulletins are not for speculation. I suspect Learmount *knows* the physics of whether fuel gets thick at low temperatures (it's not rocket science!) Fletcher - good points and URL reference. On that basis, perhaps one of the hydrocarbons with higher freezing point froze into crystals which backed up against a pump inlet, partly blocking it and restricting the flow of the remaining liquid hydrocarbon components of the fuel. (Such a back-up is unlikely to have built up against one of the small alien objects found in the tank, since power fell in both engines.) Tests on the remaining fuel samples should settle the issue. Can anyone say if tank heaters are built into some aeroplanes, as if not and if this is the cause then considerable modifications to flight procedures or to aeroplanes would be in order? - AG, Stockport. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.53.69.150 (talk) 07:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The right wing tank has two hydraulic heat exchangers and the left tank has one. These cool hydraulic fluid while warming the fuel. There are already procedures in place to cope with low fuel temperatures, such as moving to a different altitude or increasing speed (adding airspeed increases the frictional effect of ram air on the wings). The article I cited claims "A review of the service history of transport airplane operations worldwide for the past 40 years does not show a single reported incident of restricted fuel flow because of low fuel tank temperatures." We'll see if that claim stands.

Your theory sounds logical, but it's very surprising to me this hasn't been an issue in the past. The Bulletin claims the sampled fuel should have been OK down to -57°C, well below what the sensors reported for the lowest total air temperature (-45°C) and fuel temperature (-34°C) of the flight. However, the Bulletin notes ambient temperatures in the cold air mass could have been as low as -76°C. I'm going to put my money on a subtle defect in the temperature monitoring probes (or electronics) which led pilots to think temperatures were warmer than they actually were. Not sure if there's anything we can add to the article at this point as it's highly speculative. --Fletcher (talk) 14:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed that we should wait for more from the investigators (although I'd like to know why Learmount said what he did) - AG, Stockport.

As ever, there's some insightful comment on PPRuNe [10] -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 21:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

In summary, the suggestion at PPRuNe is that the fuel in a tank is not all at the same temperature, so that the cockpit reading is an over-estimate if the thermometer is not at the coldest point in the tank. Anti-slosh design of fuel tanks obviously tends to work against temperature equalisation - AG, Stockport. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.53.69.150 (talk) 10:03, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The "single explanatory cause" is usually illusory and the search for it counter-productive. Failure of complex systems, especially those which include a human operator, and not least aircraft, are usually caused by a number of contributory and interactive causes, some of which may eventually even be conveniently hidden under a blanket term such as "human error". Perhaps fuel viscosity and fuel debris both interacted with some electronic and/or human monitoring failure? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

It's so purely speculative at this point; the only hard evidence seems to be the cavitation damage to the pumps and the (seemingly minor) debris in the fuel. I conjectured a defect/deficiency with the temperature probes, since there seemed to be a wide discrepancy between the reported possible temperature of the cold air mass over Russia and the temperatures actually recorded on the flight. If the fuel was chilled below what sensors were reporting, it could then have caused the fuel flow problems later in the flight. But that's just a guess. At this point the AAIB investigators seem to have scrutinized the aircraft's systems pretty thoroughly, and you'd think they would have reported it already if they found obvious system failures or mistakes by the pilots. So the cause(s) may turn out to be quite subtle. --Fletcher (talk) 04:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

BA internal investigation

Pity we can't get get our hands on the document. Mjroots (talk) 06:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Interim Report, 4 September 2008

Yet again, a successful search for the illusive single explanatory cause? What about the fuel tank debris as a precipating factor? (...not forgetting the meterology, the flight plan, the fuel level, the aircraft attitude, etc etc). Guess the AAIB knows best. Wittlessgenstein (talk) 20:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Is this a question about the article or ways to improve it? MilborneOne (talk) 20:18, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Indirectly, yes. But then, of course, any AAIB report must be beyond reproach as WP:RS. Wouldn't you agree? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

If you have a problem with reliable sources then please ask at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. MilborneOne (talk) 20:32, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

No, Martinevans123, I really meant it more as a general criticism of accident investigation work. But I can see your point. I guess the whole report might go into contributory causes as well as main causes. But most people don't see behind the headine. I thought that the claim, reported by BBC, that "This is the first such event in 6.5 million flight hours and places the probability of the failure as being 'remote'." was surprising, as similar scenarios may well have gone unnoticed, unreported and uninvestigated. But in general I would have thought AAIB was a pretty reliable source. Wittlessgenstein (talk) 20:40, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

It needs to be born in mind that the report is only an interim report and is not the final report, which could be over a year away from being published. Mjroots (talk) 08:05, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, one would fully expect a final report to include a detailed sequence of events and an evaluation of all contributory factors. But the only reason that we have this investigation is that there was a crash-landing and 152 people could have died. It seems perfectly possible that ice in the fuel has caused loss of power before, but without such serious, or even noticable, consequences - and the investigation can't really address this theoretical possibility. Even if such an "event" really is so rare, however, we are left with the low volume of the emergency evacuation alarm. In a way this seems even more surprising and may have more serious consequences for any future 777 incidents. Or perhaps the crash actually caused the low volume, rather than it being routinely inadequate on all such aircraft? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:48, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Is this Interim report the same as the one in the October Bulletin published by the AAIB? Mjroots (talk) 19:29, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Um, yes. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:36, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Honours for crew

The source I used for the crew being honoured is now dead. However, there are other corroborating sources, such as this one. Should I just change the link, or does it need to be a cached version of the original? Mjroots (talk) 17:07, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Based on WP:DEADREF it should be perfectly acceptable to use a substitute. Fletcher (talk) 17:24, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Some factual queries...

Apparently the plane passed 6 metres over the A30. Does anyone local have the height of the streetlights there? I seem to remember they are rather close to that height!

Also, apparently the PM was waiting for his flight in the airport while passsing the end of the runway. I wasn't there, but it can't be both!

Number774 (talk) 23:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I have driven down the A30 on the perimeter of the airport and the street lights are extremely low there, though I can't give an exact height. I don't understand the second query - yes Gordon Brown's flight was delayed as a result of the incident. Where's the confusion? -- Roleplayer (talk) 01:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The plane passed approximately 6 metres (25 ft) above passing cars on the A30 road (Southern Perimeter), including the car of the prime minister, Gordon Brown, Later on it says that he was delayed on his plane... There is the confusion. Woody (talk) 01:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah I see what you mean now. What we have is two verifiable references stating two completely different versions of events. Given the confusion of reports in the early hours of any disaster, I'm going to go with the most recent, that he was in his car at the time. -- Roleplayer (talk) 01:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The article says that Gordon Brown was on a flight to both India & China? How can this be possible & also the references for that sentence only suggest he was going to China (or at least he was going there first). "Gordon Brown was on his way to Heathrow for a flight to China and India at the time." My suggestion would just be to mention China. Ajn91 (talk) 12:25, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that Gordon Brown being at the airport is not really notable, he was just one of thousands of others at the airport who were delayed. It would only be notable if somebody had an article on Gordon Browns trip to China!. MilborneOne (talk) 12:36, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The presence of Gordon Brown is in no way related to this incident. If he would not have been at the airport, the same sequence of events would have taken place. Therefore, I suggest omitting this unrelated fact.--Thomas Funke (talk) 10:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

It's WP:Notable enough to be included. One of lifes amusing/interesting co-incidences. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 15:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

There is no conflict between the two reports. Brown was in his car when it happened, then later on his plane was delayed because a runway was out of action. It doesn't say he was waiting in the airport building when the crash happened. I am reinstating the deleted reference to the near-miss in the car. Richard75 (talk) 16:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a conflict here. In no way can anything written in the Daily Mirror on this matter, and some might say on many others be taken as correct. Gordon Brown was already on an aircraft preparing to depart when the crash occurred - the initial reports from BBC Chief Political Editor Nick Robinson, who was also on the departing plane to China were among the first to be transmitted on News 24 M100 (talk) 23:03, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Just because Robinson was on the plane doesn't mean Brown was. Find a source. Richard75 (talk) 23:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

If the plane did pass Gordon Brown's motorcade perhaps some of the electrical warfare devices (such as those that stop remote triggering of roadside bombs) wiped the computer on the 777. Especially as the pilot flying reports a sudden turn down and left. It sounds a bit like this http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~wilkins/writing/Assign/topics/twa800-emi.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.152.16.158 (talk) 10:28, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

You'd need to explain why no other planes within 2 miles were affected. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 15:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The cause of this near-disaster was the presence of Gordon Brown's motorcade. Those armoured goverment luxury cars contain american made, high-powered, anti-IED mobile phone jammers and the electromagnetic radiation was fooling the B-777's flight computers with fake digital data. Sorrowfully the same method is available to terrorists, just park a van near the airport with a load of modified radio gear inside and knock out fly-by-wire systems during the last and most critical phase of landing and you get hundreds of infidels dead. Passenger planes need to be hardened against electromagnetic pulses (EMP) and hacker attacks up to military grade to avoid this risk! 82.131.210.162 (talk) 10:40, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

We can't include random conspiracy theorys unless they come from a reputable source, see the verifiability policy and the policy on original research. —Nn123645 (talk) 13:45, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Cause found

It looks like the cause of the accident has been found. No terrorism, no conspiracy, no electronic rays. Mjroots (talk) 10:31, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Speculation

Now that the real cause of the accident is known, the frenzy of media speculation immediately after the accident just looks silly. Is there any reason not to remove this section in its entirety? 82.1.62.101 (talk) 05:47, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, plenty of reasons. Leaving in the speculation section shows exactly why the media should not jump to conclusions too soon. As long as the info can be verified by reliable sources it should stay. Mjroots (talk) 19:58, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Most of the sources used in this section exist purely because some journalist had to write something before their publishing deadline. None of it adds to the reader's understanding of the crash of BA38, which is the crucial test of whether or not it should be included in this article. (Maybe the material should go into a new article entitled "Media reaction to airplane disasters" - there is plenty more material from similar articles that could go into such a page).

For now however, I shall limit myself to removing some of the more obviously wild and uncited speculation. 82.1.62.101 (talk) 15:03, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

A better idea would be to ensure that unreferenced statements are provided with references. Mjroots (talk) 15:10, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for reverting 82.1.62.101's edits which were supported by reliable sources. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 06:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

It's not silly; it's an accurate reflection of media and talking head, instant expert speculation. I think that a valuable service can be performed on WP, articles of which rank highly in search engine results, by keeping speculation on the article, clearly segregated, for posterity to allow the majority of people, themselves lacking detailed knowledge, to determine who is talking sense (informed speculation) and who is making wild rumours, perhaps in desperate bid for self publicity. I like the current format where, as each of the rumours were debunked by the AAIB, a sentence stating so is added. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 05:56, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment

Removed from /GA1 by Mjroots (talk)
They should sue Rolls-Royce, not Boeing, it was the Rolls-Royce engine and part that failed. That part being the fuel-oil heat exchanger (FOHE) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.8.114.103 (talk) 10:07, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Something positive to come out of this?

A number of news stories shortly after this incident made the point that given the severity of the hard landing and subsequent damage, there were in fact relatively/proportionally few injuries. Those same stories credit the cabin crew with ensuring that the passengers were ordered/guided/supervised into the crash position for landing very very quickly, and then further said that this is because BA cabin staff actually practice this in simulators. I suspect that those news stories are probably no longer available, but if adequate confirmation of them could be found, then surely this would be important enough to insert into the article. ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Old wombat (talk • contribs) 09:43, 30 October 2011 (UTC) Old_Wombat (talk) 09:44, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Air Crash Investigation Episode Name

This is currently on at the moment (In the UK on National Geographic) and the episode title is call "The Heathrow Enigma" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mayday_episodes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.103.25.67 (talk) 22:51, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

UK Channel 5 Plane Crash At Heathrow programme / Sticky Fuel Valves / Bali Crash

I made a connection with the recent Bali crash on water 50m short of the runway which had 2012 edition automated accident safety protocol. I suspect a new-science explanation may have given the aircraft a 1.6g jolt on it's journey over Siberia for Flight 38. This is a common feature of many Clear Air Turbulence incidents in which a sudden loss of altitude can also be expected. The sudden acceleration to the aircraft frame has been recorded in the black box data for many other incidents. Perhaps in this case it was enough to disengage the fuel valve detector system. These could have been jammed open at the same cruise flight position until the final approach and then flipped fully open during the crash. That's why the valves didn't appear to be the problem when initially inspected. I noticed that this line of enquiry was missing from the AAIB methodology. Best wishes for the future and a fantastic tv programme. 195.59.118.106 (talk) 10:40, 27 April 2013 (UTC) Alan Lowey

I've made another connection between the photograph of a 'Microburst' weather phenomena and the photograph of the Tunguska comet impact site in Siberia. Both show a devastation of felled trees lying on the ground like matchsticks. The connection between microbursts and the Bali incident have already been made, [url=http://news.discovery.com/earth/weather-extreme-events/can-a-microburst-or-wind-shear-crash-a-plane-130415.htm]Can A Microburst or Wind Shear Crash a Plane?(Apr15 2013)[/url]. There's also now a connection between high powered comet impacts that leave no crater or comet fragments, as in Tunguska, and the microburst/1.6g acceleration recorded on black box flight recorders. There's also been a recent connection between two plane crashes at the same time in the same region, [url=http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=247080&hl=]Plane crash may be related to forced landing of other aircraft (Apr30 2013)[/url]. 195.59.118.106 (talk) 09:39, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Alan Lowey [url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/18/bermuda-triangle-vittoria-missoni_n_2576384.html]Vittorio Missoni's Disappearance Gives Rise To New Fears Of Bermuda Triangles Worldwide[/url] 195.59.118.106 (talk) 14:37, 9 May 2013 (UTC) Alan Lowey

British Airways internal investigation

Is this notable enough to be included? It seems to me the "investigation" was little more than a PR exercise by the airline. 80.2.106.75 (talk) 07:37, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:British Airways Flight 38/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

== Quality class == I think this can be upgraded from a stub class now. -- Roleplayer (talk) 18:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC) I think B class is a bit on the generous side though. Won't be able to really tell the whole story until the final AAIB report comes out. Mjroots (talk) 22:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC) I've upped the grade from Start to C class for WP Aviation and downgraded from B to C class for WP London Transport for the reason given above. Once the final AAIB report has been released we'll be able to add the info and then coverage and accuracy criteria will be met. Mjroots (talk) 21:42, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 21:42, 20 February 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 14:26, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

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