Talk:Bob Marley/Archive 6

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Archive 6

Ancestry additions

Not only is the addition below badly sourced that even say "unsubstantiated rumors"... but it's also a bit overwhelming in size for this GA article NO? We have one source ... Jamaican observer for the first starment..but the Observer seems to be sourced to https://snwmf.com/phorum/read.php?1,108691 and the other source for the first sentence is a Lulu self- published book.....the for the rest we have sources from ethnicelebs.com and dleeasteye.net (that does not mention anything about this) and the world famous 2009Telegraph post..... needless to say all are not considered an authoritative source.Moxy 🍁 14:05, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Norval Marley was a white Jamaican originally from Sussex, England, whose family claimed Syrian Jewish origins. Regarding Bob Marley’s ancestry, there have been unsubstantiated rumors (bold to show guess tone set for entire entry) that his father’s side was entirely or partially of Syrian Jewish descent. Genealogical research that has been done into his family tree does not provide any evidence to support these claims. Marley’s father, Norval, was born to Albert Thomas “Robert” Marley and Ellen Bloomfield in Jamaica in the early 1880s. Albert had immigrated to Jamaica from England to make a living in the mahogany trade. The 1861 England Census shows Albert living with his family at age 9 in Essex, England. His father is listed a staff sergeant in the army, and all of the children of the family have typical English names. Both of Albert’s parents are listed as being born in Rye, Sussex - essentially the Marley’s ancestral village - where the family can be traced a few more generations back to the mid-18th century. Syrian Jews however didn’t arrive in England until the latter half of the 19th century and settled mainly in Manchester. And almost conclusively, a record for Albert’s father Frederick shows he was baptized on Feb 20th 1820, indicating he was Christian and not Jewish. Thus is it almost certain that the Marleys were of English Christian extraction. As for Bob Marley's paternal grandmother, Ellen Bloomfield, the situation is slightly more unclear. She was born in 1854 to Richard Bloomfield and an unrecorded mother. Once again, the name ‘Bloomfield’ has no connections to the Syrian Jewish community and is rather a well-known English/Jamaican surname. Yet unlike her husband, there are no genealogical documents pertaining to her family background. While it is possible she was born to an English father and a mother from a different ethnic background, as of yet there is no supporting evidence.

References

Ethnicelebs is not reliable per User_talk:XLinkBot/RevertList#EthniCelebs.com --Ronz (talk) 15:11, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Hi Moxy, I had a little trouble understanding what you wrote but after reading it a few times, I think I got the gist. My response is that in terms of bad sources, you site a random internet forum and SELF-PUBLISHED book. No offence, but talk about being poorly sourced. This is a prime example of using non-authoritative sources. Also, if by citing the internet forum you were attempting to highlight a past interview with a woman named Heather Marley that has since been removed from the internet, I feel you are once again erring. Heather Marley (who only by her own claims is a distant relative of Bob Marley), by her own admission only met the actual Marley family once, after which they quickly cut off all communication with her. This is hardly an individual we should be using as legitimate source of information regarding Bob Marley’s actual family (and even if she is a distant relative, I think we have all learned a lesson from Elizabeth Warren’s Native American identity controversy in that “family lore” is not something that can be trusted to relay accurate information over long periods of time). Currently there are no legitimate sources – no respected biographies (of which there are literally hundreds) written nor thoroughly researched articles on the subject published – that confirm or even mention Bob Marley having Syrian Jewish ancestry. …Thus, I think at the very least the information stating Marley having Syrian Jewish ancestry should be removed from his page. While I understand that that no original research is allowed, I think it is obvious that we use our intelligence and discretion when deciding what should be included. Just because a bit of information shows up in one of the corners of the internet, doesn’t mean it should be taken as truth and placed in a Wikipedia page, especially for such an iconic individual. …While I’ll admit the paragraph I published may have been a bit excessive, I was attempting to highlight this aspect of misinformation that seems to have been spread around the internet to an extent that it has been seemingly has been accepted as fact. I could pare down what I wrote, and like I said, at the very minimum I believe any information regarding Syrian Ancestry should be removed. Somville243 (talk) 16:52, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

I agree with you both; even if the sources were verifiable, the length of the description is unnecessary, as the article is about Bob Marley himself and not his heritage. Norval Marley was a white Jamaican originally from Sussex, England, whose family claimed Syrian Jewish origins. This sentence should suffice, and if there is no verifiable evidence they claimed to be Syrian Jews, that part can be removed also. No need for anything further.--Chimino (talk) 21:21, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

What happened to the cite from Vibe: "The offspring of Norval Marley, a 50-year-old officer in the British military (descended from Syrian Jews), ..." ? It's just a mention, doesn't point to birth records or such, but... Shenme (talk) 05:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Real bio dismiss the claim...thus as per before and BRD should removed...again .Lulu self- published book and Marco Virgona interview about her surname search is not reliable enough for inclusion. --Moxy 🍁 05:26, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

This is what the family claimed. The question is not whether it is verified or not, but whether the fact they claim it is verified (it is, as the family has given multiple interviews in local media claiming that). This is just a claim. Avaya1 (talk) 03:49, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about you silly person? People on this page who are saying that Marley never had Syrian Jewish ancestry or whatever are right! You are the wrong one. I would say please change it, but I know you will not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.133.96.131 (talk) 11:53, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Isn't Bob Marley British?

Technically speaking, he was born in Jamaica when it was a Crown Colony.

At the very least he is a British Jamaican, is he not?

Was very surprised to see him missing on the List of Jamaican British people 198.53.156.34 (talk) 01:43, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

I think he was Jamaican aftre all.. Kronik25 (talk) 10:34, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Marcus Garvey was born before Marley in the Colony, and it cites without "British-Jamaican" on his page. niko3818 (talk) 02:59, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

He was born a British subject but whether he chose to retain British citizenship after Jamaican independence or not I don't know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.144.50.228 (talk) 08:20, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 December 2019

I understand some may argue I am being a little premature without waiting a full day for a response. However, it seems Bob Marley was born in a Crown colony, and he was therefore a Crown subject.

I believe it is only fair to denote that by stating he is a British Jamaican (at the very least!) 198.53.156.34 (talk) 19:21, 23 December 2019 (UTC) 198.53.156.34 (talk) 19:21, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Our article British Jamaicans is only about people of Jamaican descent living in the UK. He was born in "British Jamaica" but I haven't seen that used as an adjective to describe nationality. The people in Category:People of British India are not described as "British Indians". I think this would only be confusing to readers. – Thjarkur (talk) 19:54, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

 Note: Marking closed as  Not done, per the above. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 23:22, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

hi, i thank you for your thoughtful response but have some comments:

i see Andrew Gourlay, Victor Headley, who are "white" (i don't like this adjective, but it's frank) being described as british-born Jamaicans. same with Ovill McKenzie and Dillian Whyte. i do note that for some reason Raheem Sterling is not described as either a British-born Jamaican or British, even though it seems that he is.

why is it so much to ask that Bob Marley have a British prefix associated with his citizenship. it is clear he was a british citizen, so saying something like "british-born jamaican" like we have for other people is not unreasonable, especially since marley (by virtue of being born in a crown colony) WAS BRITISH!

Lady Colin Campbell who was born AFTER marley is designated as a Jamaican-born british. so i mean, the omission here is glaring 198.53.156.34 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:56, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 January 2020

I feel like I should be an editor because I'm am a Jamaican myself and I personally love if I could start editing on my favorite reggae artist of all time, SNOOP LION! Just kidding. But I really do love Bob Marley's work and it kind of inspired me to be an editor so if you just accept my request that would mean the world to me. Anyways, SEE YOU SOON!!!

Love, XXXDAGERDICKYBOI XXXDAGGERDICKYBOI (talk) 03:11, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

•  Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. In order to edit the article yourself, you'll need autoconfirmed status (granted to most accounts which are more than four days old and have made at least 10 edits. Surachit (talk) 04:07, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 May 2020

Philifizur (talk) 13:35, 20 May 2020 (UTC) Could I edit this page; Bob Marley, I think he has a genre of blues rock, along with his other genres. It would be more accurate to either put R&B, or blues rock.

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 15:49, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on September 13th 2020

I was reading the Cannabis subsection under the Personal Views section and noticed an important typo. It says that Marley viewed cannabis as an "aid to medication." That didn't seem right so I looked up the reference source (ref. 111). The book actually says "aid to meditation." May this be corrected?8.9.86.32 (talk) 16:28, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

 Done - I've made that change, assuming in good faith that the above is correct. I don't have the book - some confirmation from other editors who do have access to the book would be helpful. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

1962–72: Early years=

In February 1962, Marley recorded four songs, "Judge Not", "One Cup of Coffee", "Do You Still Love Me?" and still unreleasedDjKuyah (talk) 15:59, 2 February 2021 (UTC) "Terror", at Federal Studios for local music producer Leslie Kong. Three of the songs were released on Beverley's with "One Cup of Coffee" being released under the pseudonym Bobby Martell.

In 1963, Bob Marley, Bunny Wailer, Peter Tosh, Junior Braithwaite, Beverley Kelso, and Cherry Smith were called the Teenagers. They later changed the name to the Wailing Rudeboys, then to the Wailing Wailers, at which point they were discovered by record producer Coxsone Dodd, and finally to the Wailers. Their single "Simmer Down" for the Coxsone label became a Jamaican No. 1 in February 1964 selling an estimated 70,000 copies and was credited to 'Bob Marley & The Wailers'DjKuyah (talk) 15:59, 2 February 2021 (UTC)/ . The Wailers, now regularly recording for Studio One, worked with Dodd's top studioDjKuyah (talk) 15:59, 2 February 2021 (UTC) musicians such as Ernest Ranglin (arranger "It Hurts To Be Alone"), the keyboardist Jackie Mittoo and saxophonist Roland Alphonso. By 1966, Braithwaite, Kelso, and Smith had left the Wailers, leaving the core trio of Bob Marley, Bunny Wailer, and Peter Tosh.

In 1966, Marley married Rita Anderson, and moved near his mother's residence in Wilmington, Delaware, in the United States for a short time, during which he worked as a DuPont lab assistant and on the assembly line at a Chrysler plant in nearby Newark, under the alias Donald Marley.

Though raised as a Catholic, Marley became interested in Rastafari beliefs in the 1960s, when away from his mother's influence. After returning to Jamaica, Marley formally converted to Rastafari and began to grow dreadlocks.

After a financial disagreement with Dodd, Marley and his new wife Alpharita Anderson, Peter Tosh and Bunny Wailer started a new group called 'Bob Marley & The Wailing Wailers' and recorded for their own label 'Wail'n Soul'm on which they released around twenty sides of top-class rocksteady, including the original of 'Stir It Up' and hits such as 'Nice Time' and 'Bend Down Low'.DjKuyah (talk) 15:59, 2 February 2021 (UTC). It was during this time when the group signed as performers and writers to Johnny Nash's and Danny Sims JAD records for all territories except Jamaica.DjKuyah (talk) 15:59, 2 February 2021 (UTC) Following the collapse of their Wail'n Soul'm set-up the now 'Bob Marley and the Wailers' (Rita was tending the baby Ziggy) teamed up with Lee "Scratch" Perry and his studio band, the Upsetters. Although the alliance lasted less than a year, they recorded what many consider the Wailers' finest work. Marley and Perry split after a dispute regarding Perry licensed their recordings to Trojan in the UK, specifically against the bands instructions, but Bob and Lee worked together, later in the 1970's.[41]

References

Semi-protected edit request on 28 February 2 021 ( he’s 45 ) not ( 44)

81.105.210.171 (talk) 21:31, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: Marley died at the age of 36 in 1981. To whom do you refer? P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 21:56, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Familly: notables grandsons and granddaughter

I don't edit English: wikipedia anymore but we can mention maybe his grandson Jo Mersa Marley and his granddaughter, Mystic Marley, both son and daughter of stephen Marley.

Marley also has some notable grandsons, Skip Marley, Jo Mersa Marley, and American football player Nico Marley and granddaughter Mystic Marley, daughter of stephen Marley.

Other references:

• A natural Mystic blows through the air – Mystic Marley

https://jamaica-gleaner.com/article/entertainment/20190224/natural-mystic-blows-through-air-mystic-marley

• Interview : On The Road With Dad

https://www.bendsource.com/bend/on-the-road-with-dad/Content?oid=9732767

Thank you Neuromancien (talk) 12:58, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 20 June 2021

In the "Early life and career" section, this:

Norval Marley was from Crowborough, East Sussex in England,

Should be changed to:

Norval Marley was Jamaican,

The article repeats the fallacy that Bob's father was born in England, when he was actually born in Jamaica.

-- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/north_east/3431139.stm#:~:text=%22he%20was%20born%20in%20jamaica%2C%22%20said%20norval's%20great%20nephew%2C%20chris%20marley. HannahInJT (talk) 14:26, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. The Jamaica claim is from a quote by Chris Marley. The current reference states Crowborough as a fact. While both are from the BBC, the latter holds a bit more weight in terms of reliability. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 19:01, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

One Love / People Get Ready

The 1965 album Wailing Wailers did not contain a song called One Love/People Get Ready AFAIK, see full tracklisting here: https://www.discogs.com/The-Wailing-Wailers-The-Wailing-Wailers/master/269277. The 1965 recordings were mainly ska-recordings but the style "reggae" did not exist in these times. AFAIK One Love/People Get Ready was from the Exodus-LP, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Love/People_Get_Ready and probably did not see release as a 7" before 1984, see https://www.discogs.com/Bob-Marley-The-Wailers-One-Love-People-Get-Ready/master/152241.

to hospital?

Maybe change it "to the hospital" instead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.15.100.25 (talk) 10:44, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

"taken to hospital" is the standard phrase. SilkTork (talk) 16:06, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Other Tributes

In the Other Tributes section, it contends that "the Australian Aboriginal people continue to burn a sacred flame to honour his memory in Sydney's Victoria Park". But, I couldn only find this published sporadically, and never with an actual reference. I know the park well and have never seen a sacred flame in honour of Bob Marley there unfortunately. I am unfortunately unable to view the reference 'Marley Legend: An Illustrated Life of Bob Marley'. I will definitely look again for the flame next time I am there, but given WP:V, I am unsure if the claim is reliable. If anyone can find a better source, that would help a lot, because most other concurring articles seem to have originated from Henke's claim. Rubyyacht (talk) 02:01, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

That detail has now been removed. If anyone has a reliable source for it, it can be returned. SilkTork (talk) 16:12, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 December 2021

Surprised that there is no mention of the conspiracy theory related to the CIA being involved in Marley's death. Perhaps just a short mention could be added? 2601:18C:8B82:9E0:21B4:754C:E5B0:7344 (talk) 03:55, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:56, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

@Muboshgu: are you saying that you've never heard of the CIA assassination conspiracy? 2601:18C:8B82:9E0:21B4:754C:E5B0:7344 (talk) 04:00, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm saying that you need to provide reliable sources that discuss the conspiracy theory, and propose the precise sentence(s) you want added. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:10, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

@Muboshgu, although i wasn't the one who requested the edit, but there are tons of sources on the conspiracy. for example, this. Tame (talk) 15:49, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Tamingimpala, you have the permissions needed to edit this article, so if you'd like, you can WP:BEBOLD. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:16, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Updating Ancestry Claims

Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bob_Marley/Archive_6#Ancestry_additions, the ancestry claims in the article and the related categories should be removed. As a side note the user who added this edit https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bob_Marley&type=revision&diff=918122259&oldid=917367015 was banned. Per wikipedia policy I think you should be able to revert edits of banned users 2600:1010:B00C:92EF:9D27:D861:2E5D:99D3 (talk) 05:38, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Explanation needed

"Marley rejected his doctors' advice to have his toe amputated (which would have hindered his performing career)"

The part in brackets needs further explanation/clarification. It is hard to understand why. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C8:7B08:6A00:29D5:64FB:79EA:70E3 (talk) 00:34, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Baptism

This article makes no mention about Marley's reversion to Christianity and joining of the Ethiopian Christian Church on 4 November 1980. 64.229.24.167 (talk) 11:50, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

If you can show us a reliable source for this occurrence, it will be considered. Britmax (talk) 12:28, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 April 2022

Add to the article in the association football section of personal life that Marley was a big fan of Celtic FC from Glasgow and would record old firm derby matches when he was on tour 2A00:23C8:1E85:3401:4870:9024:3F17:4FC9 (talk) 19:09, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:27, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Image change request

The current image of Bob here, imo, sucks. Per MOS:LEADIMAGE, "but also be the type of image used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works," - hardly being able to see Bob's face alone is lackluster and to me, fails this requirement - it also hides majority of his actual appearance. I'd prefer the switch to

Bob-Marley 3 (cropped).jpg

as it actually represents him in a frontal view. niko3818 (talk) 01:17, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

I see this image change has now been made. A definite improvement, in my opinion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:08, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Request to Remove Patrilineal Syrian-Jewish Ancestry Claim

Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bob_Marley/Archive_6#Ancestry_additions, it seems like the claim that Bob Marley's father, Norval Sinclair Marley, was of partial or full Syrian Jewish descent, is unsubstantiated.

This claim keeps going through a cycle of reappearing and being removed. Norval was a white Jamaican and the ancestry records of his family tree supports this claim. Baptismal records show the Marleys were English Christians. The real biography dismisses the claim of Syrian-Jewish ancestry. Including the claim is unencyclopedic, especially considering Norval didn't even consider himself to be Jewish.

Can we remove this claim and the categories it corresponds to? 2600:1010:B06E:BBB7:9532:4755:B1F1:63A3 (talk) 04:30, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Adding to my previous comment, these two family trees show patrilineal English descent (not Syrian.)

• https://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/trees/121358/I011/-/pedigree
• http://www.wargs.com/other/marley.html 2600:1010:B06E:BBB7:40EB:808C:2CC7:32DB (talk) 01:47, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I did some more digging around and found that every source for the claim of Syrian-Jewish ancestry is coming from this article from 2003 https://web.archive.org/web/20100814130612/http://www.bobmarleymagazine.com/2003/06/interview-with-heather-marley/ (takes a couple of seconds to load.) It's with Heather Marley who says she is a second cousin of Bob's.

Parts of this story seem dubious. She says her father "new" nothing about Norval and didn't know about Bob Marley until he read about Bob in a Time Magazine article. Yet the previous paragraph contains the claim that her father was told by his mother that the Marleys were Syrian Jews. How could he be told stories about them presumably at a time when he didn't know they existed? Her story about Ziggy Marley's road manager assuming she was related to Bob because of the similarity of her brother's appearance to Bob's is equally dubious.

This is not a RS.

This claim was last added here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bob_Marley&type=revision&diff=650254349&oldid=649559504 by a user who has since been blocked. They have a similar pattern of judaizing the ancestry of other public figures. 2600:1010:B06E:BBB7:58D7:9D94:5376:13BB (talk) 12:29, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

It seems to be some sort of rumour, and I'm not even sure that Bob or his father believed it themselves. There's no genealogical evidence for it. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 20:32, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 June 2022

I'm piggybacking off the previous section I added https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bob_Marley#Request_to_Remove_Patrilineal_Syrian-Jewish_Ancestry_Claim.

The request is for removal of Category:Jamaican people of English-Jewish descent and Category:Jamaican people of Syrian-Jewish descent categories.

I request the claim "whose family claimed to have Syrian Jewish origins as well" to be removed as well. This seems to be originating from a removed article on the internet with a Heather Marley, who claimed to be related to Bob Marley and had met him once. If it can't be removed then it should be mentioned that "biographers have hastened to dismiss these claims, saying that they are unverified" according to https://forward.com/culture/469877/in-the-music-of-bob-marley-a-deep-connection-to-judaism/. 2600:1010:B06E:BBB7:64AF:3E1D:93D2:4A14 (talk) 05:05, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: This is actually a controversial edit, so you'll need to discuss first with other editors. Please open a new section here and start a discussion. If this is being added and removed, rather than continue the slow edit war via edit requests, please discuss and form a consensus one way or another. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:03, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

I created the section before this one to discuss but since nobody replied, I created the edit request.

I respect your consensus building approach and will wait patiently. That said, the last time this edit was discussed in 2019, the consensus was leaning towards removing the claim of Jewish ancestry. 2600:1010:B06E:BBB7:D901:5897:D534:ABB0 (talk) 12:03, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi there - I found the article where the claim originates from and linked it in the previous section. Since that article is not a RS, does a consensus actually need to be reached? 2600:1010:B06E:BBB7:58D7:9D94:5376:13BB (talk) 12:33, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

edit request has been addressed, setting answered=yes 2600:1010:B06E:BBB7:C8B6:E780:32BE:B7E8 (talk) 12:04, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 December 2022

also known as juba 168.245.198.66 (talk) 19:22, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 19:27, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Possible false quote on the Bob Marley Wikipedia page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hello. I was researching Bob Marley yesterday, and I came across a quote on his page. "The people who are trying to make this world worse aren't taking a day off. How can I?"

In this context, Bob Marley was a victim of an attempted assassination back in 1972, and yet he performed the next day. The problem? The quote has a "citation needed tag". And after doing some more digging, the quotation was added without a citation in January 13 2009.

I attemped did some digging to try to find some sources before January 13, 2009.

Newspapers.com? Nothing.

Archive.org? Zip.

Google Books?

There was a book with a "2005" date called "That's My Teenage Son" that contained the quote. However, it turned out to be a misattributed date as the book was published after that. The book cites the Wikipedia Bob Marley page...on December 30, 2009.

And the craziest thing, this was posted on Wikipedia since January 2009. Over 14 years!

Before I can completely 100% verify that the quotation in question is fake, I need to reach out to you. There could be an obscure Bob Marley book that neither I nor Jack has found. The fact that Jack wasn't helpful comes closer the Okkams razor, but I don't feel comfortable removing the quotation until we completely agree that it's fake.

Interesting. This one [1] is from February 2009, so it doesn't disprove the "made up in January" hypothesis. And the archive.org hits [2] start in 2010. I guess it's up to editorial consensus. Pringles may be the appropriate snack. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:44, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

I added a citation from Yahoo News[3]. It isn't our job to editorialize reliable sources, it's their editor's jobs. It's one of main reasons why we use reliable sources, because they have editorial oversight. Finding sources from 70's is hard, and we don't even know if the quote came right after the concert or in later years. WikiVirusC^(talk) 13:12, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

It certainly would be a stronger case if we had some off-WP journalist commenting on it. Still, a pre-WP source would be nice to see, that would settle it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:24, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

@WikiVirusC: I undid the edit. It’s a post January 2009 source. The journalist who saw the quote probably saw it from another journal that cited the 2009 article. Least we forget about the Brazilian Aardvark? There were news articles published after 2008 that used the false name for the species. Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 13:36, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not care about when something was added to Wikipedia with respect to a reliable source. We can discuss that here but it's a source that can be used in an article. A reliable source is better than a citation needed tag, the discussion can continue but removing a reliable source makes ZERO sense at this point in time. At this point in time it doesn't seem as if you have removed it yet. I suggest leaving it and letting this discussion last, this isn't some kind of contentious information and it is just the citation not the actual content of article. WikiVirusC^(talk) 13:39, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

@WikiVirusC: Wikipedia does care if you add inaccurate or false material. Like I said before - the fact that there are NO sources pre-2009 from Newspapers.com, Google Books, or Archive.org makes it very suspicious. Instead of adding a post-2009 news article, please find a pre-2009 newspaper or source. Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 13:53, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

But nothing has been proven fake. I don't understand how you think the quote is better without a source while we discuss this than with one. We can discuss its origin here, but for you take out a reliable source in favor or a maintained tag makes zero sense. Wikipedia wants citations for all claims, and you are removing reliable sources based on your theory. WikiVirusC^(talk) 14:59, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

That source is generally reliable, and arguably it trumps the citogenesis suspicion. I'm still worried Yahoo's source was WP or Taika Waititi, though. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:07, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I have something:[4] I actually saw that film, but someone will have to check. If true, WP wasn't first. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:17, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

I did find a Saloon article from 2019 where Taika Waititi said the purported quote. Misquotes happen all the time, even from famous people. Herman Cain accidentally quoted Pokemon while attributing an anonymous poet Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 14:19, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

2007:[5]. Who knows if the film-makers made it up. But WP-editors didn't. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:22, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: Great find! There are now two possibilities. Either Bob Marley did say it with no older newspapers found, or the movie made up the quote for dramatic purposes. Honestly, I’m leaning to the latter since celebrities are commonly misattributed like Albert Einstein. At least we know where the user heard the quote from. Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 14:31, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

First it is fake because nothing was found before it was on WP, when it was proven that it didn't originated on WP, now your leaning towards it being fake because the movie made it up. So you think it's fake, we get that. Can you explain your reasoning for not wanting to include reliable sources in the current article. How is the article improved by removing the RS and using citation needed tag instead? WikiVirusC^(talk) 14:59, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

I’m not going to explain it further. But I found no sources before 2009. Another user determined it was a quote from I Am Legend. So I am 100% certain that it’s fake. 15:03, 22 April 2023 (UTC) Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 15:03, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

I didn't ask you to explain why you think it is fake. I literally said I/we get that you do. I asked why you think removing reliable sourced citations is the best course of action while this discussion is had. WikiVirusC^(talk) 15:05, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't say determined. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:10, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

If reliable sources potentially based their statements about this quote on a drama-film, that is a reason to question its WP:DUE-ness. We don't know that, but it's up for discussion. Drama has mistakenly been taken for fact before. It's also possible that the drama is quite reality-based on this point, but again, we don't know. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:10, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't have an issue with the discussion, it should be had. I had an issue with removing citations. WikiVirusC^(talk) 15:15, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

After the quote was removed I was adding back it back in with RSs, and including a link to this discussion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång added back in quote before I finished, but I added in the RSs that they and I found earlier, and linked the discussion here. WP:STATUSQUO says we should leave it as is until a consensus is reach in this discussion. WikiVirusC^(talk) 15:25, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

These are sources that I, normally, would be ok with. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:30, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

I am on the frontline by saying that the quotation is false. Per WP:Citogenesis, There are ZERO news sources before 2009 and I Am Legend seems like the only source that I’m able to find, per the beginning of the discussion. Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 15:31, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

I have to say, that if this is indeed an instance of 'Citogenesis' or circular reporting, it's a pretty fascinating one, with a nice, neat little origin in the screenplay from Protosevich and Goldman with a resulting attribution spreading out from there. That said, I am not entirely convinced that the quote is "fake", and think that the term - oft overused nowadays - is actually pretty offensive and implies that a Wiki editor had intentionally added false info. I am hoping that my observation and impression of that is incorrect.

I have seen that in Wiki-EN, the litmus for inclusion is Verifiability, not Truth. As Wikipedia is not a repository of contributor opinion but instead of the reliably sourced opinions of others, we are not really allowed to wedge in our own opinions on a given subject. The usual exceptions to this are if the statement is an exceptional claim or if the statement offers UNDUE weight on the subject of the article; neither of those apply.

As we currently have enough sources that verify the quote as being genuinely out there, it should remain within the article. To satisfy the provenance of the quote, I have sent an email to the Bob Marley Foundation, based in Jamaica, asking for the source of the statement. When and if they respond to my email, I'll add it here, so those folks with access to source-searching databases can verify them. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:50, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Fwiw, per the film and WikiVirusC's 2008 source, I don't consider the quote "fake" by a Wikipedian or anyone else. I'd still like to see a 70s newspaper or a decent pre-Smith biography mention it (post-Smith would be interesting too). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:12, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

The concert was quickly organized and local to Jamaica, so most if not all sources on it would be limited to Jamaica. The shooting was international news, but the concert itself would have been limited coverage. I searched Gleaner archives, but other than them I can't find any archives from then in Jamaica. While they do cover the shooting and concert they don't have any quotes from talking with him, only quotes from his performance. There was a film crew(Perry Henzell & Jeff Walker involved) apparently with him between the shooting and concert, whether there is any footage of interviews with him around or after the concert, I don't know. WikiVirusC^(talk) 17:38, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

!votes?

Should we keep the quote under discussion in the article?

As shown, non-awful sources exists. However, I looked up a few searchable Marley-biographies on gbooks [6][7][8][9], and none of these seem to mention the quote. Per this, and the possible drama-origin, I say remove on WP:DUE grounds. I'd love to see something in a decent biography or a contemporary interview. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:38, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

 Comment: The web sources are after 2009. Even reliable sources sometimes report incorrect information per WP:CITOGENESIS. That’s why I constantly stress finding sources before 2009, which we weren’t able to do. Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 15:45, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Will Smith is a source. Not one we should use in this context, but still. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:51, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

I found a source from 2008[10], although written by a HS senior guest columnist it still has to go past the papers editorial staff. Either way its pointless if the argument is going to just be "they probably heard it in I Am Legend (2007)". WikiVirusC^(talk) 16:14, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

In that particular example, it's not that unlikely that they did. It was a popular film. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:39, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Good call. Honestly, I am shifting goal posts a bit because of that discovery. 2007-2008 is a lot more blurry due to the film’s release, but there was a slow uptick in its use since 2009 when it was first featured on Wikipedia. Pre-2007 is the best now. Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 18:31, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

• I'd say Keep, unless we find retractions from found reliable sources or we find evidence to prove that the statement was false. Published by sources with editorial boards, it isn't our job to editorialize the reliable sources we use. WikiVirusC^(talk) 16:14, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
• When in doubt, leave it out. If the earliest known occurrence is uttered by a fictional character in a post-apocalyptic thriller film paraphrasing Marley's thoughts on the attack, then good editorial judgment calls for selecting another indisputably genuine quote. Cullen328 (talk) 17:33, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
• Keep. Though I am concerned about the lack of solid RS, I've read a bunch of articles about him, and this seems well within the scope of what he likely would have said. That there is a literal shit-ton of sources, some of them acceptable that attribute the phrase to him, I think its would be foolish to not include the quote. No one is saying cite I Am Legend as the source of the quote; that's a straw man. And not to be argumentative, but I have yet to hear a cogent argument as to how this quote presents any sort of UNDUE influence in the article. Like everyone else, I want a newspaper article or magazine interview where it comes up, and I have a feeling that it is indeed out there. As I noted before, I did email the Bob Marley Foundation for the provenance of the quote; if anyone would have it, they would. Maybe we can circle back in a week and continue the discussion; THERE IS NO HURRY. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:50, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

  If you are writing a screenplay and you decide, for dramatic effect, to ascribe a statement to a historic person, you would as a matter of course make sure that it seems well within the scope of what that person likely might have said. So as an argument for historic accuracy this carries no weight. Sources that have reported the quote as spoken by Marley have almost certainly relied on the Wikipedia article, since it is not found in any other published source. There is some hurry in not continuing to be a source of disinformation.  --Lambiam 08:06, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

  If they point you to a WP-usable source, all is well. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:10, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

  •  Comment: Another thing I noticed is that the Wikipedia article uses the incomplete quotation from the movie, which is parroted by most sources. The full quotation is this:
    • "The people, who were trying to make this world worse... are not taking a day off. How can I? Light up the darkness ." (Emphasis in Bold)
  • Taika Waititi is the only one that uses the full quote because he heard it from the movie, rather than the Wikipedia article. But every other source uses the incomplete quotation featured on Wikipedia. Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 12:06, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
• Remove – obviously. There is absolutely no reason to think these words have actually been spoken by Bob Marley or any notable person other than Will Smith. Their first recorded appearance is in the screenplay of I am Legend; all later occurrences are plausibly derived from the movie, possibly indirectly through a false statement in our article. Next thing we'll add a quote "There are simply too many notes" to our article Joseph II, Holy Roman Emperor because these word are spoken by Jeffrey Jones in the film Amadeus.  --Lambiam 07:22, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
•  Comment: I was able to find a more accurate quotation from Bob Marley, published in a biography called "Catch a Fire" by Timothy White on Page 292. Bob Marley spoke this just before performing in his concert in December 1976.

"When me decided ta do dis yere concert two anna 'alf months ago, me was told dere was no politics. I jus' wanted ta play fe da love of da people."

Source: Archive.org Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 02:44, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

• Remove There is no compelling reason to keep this dubious and unnecessary "quote", supported on such shaky grounds. It's trivial, and without a pre-2009 reliable source, it is effectively disinformation that serves no good purpose. Carlstak (talk) 13:26, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
• On a balance, leave it out: the provenance is very questionable — as Yoshiman says above, looking at how much of the quote gets quoted, it looks very much like the post-Wikipedia sources are quoting Wikipedia, and the one pre-Wikipedia movie is not a reliable source (it's a fiction movie). We don't need to include it (as Gråbergs Gråa Sång notes, it doesn't seem to have made its way into biographies of the subject), so I'm inclined to agree with Cullen328 and Carlstak, given the doubt, leave it out, there's no compelling reason to include it. Obviously, investigative reporting directly on whether it's a real quote or not would clarify matters, as would examples from closer to when it was supposedly uttered. -sche (talk) 18:04, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
• Remove The quote likely originates from I Am Legend, and even if it does turn out to be true, we would have to make the case it is DUE considering it does not appear in any pre-2009 Marley biographies. It really reflects poorly on the project more widely to propagate dubious information like this (it even found it's way into a speech given by President Obama).

I did find an article on I Am Legend that makes it clear that this is a "claimed" quotation by the character. This paper gives the Marley quotation with a link to this YouTube video - I don't have time to watch the whole thing to check if the quotation is said but given it's of the concert (not the day before) I doubt it. Vladimir.copic (talk) 02:46, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bob Marley’s name

Marley Biographyby daughter Cedella Marley states Marley was born Nesta Robert Marley, 2/6/45. 2606:A800:CB88:5600:9014:9800:B499:CCC2 (talk) 16:50, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Citation? Peaceray (talk) 21:22, 18 October 2023 (UTC)