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Temp Public Sandbox for Early Life rewrite

The opening without any changes

Bob Marley was born on the farm of his maternal grandfather in Nine Mile, Saint Ann Parish, Jamaica. His family named him Nesta Robert Marley though later a Jamaican passport official would reverse his first and middle names. He attended Stepney Primary and Junior High School which serves the catchment area of Saint Ann.

His father, Norval Sinclair Marley, was an Anglo-Jamaican of British/Syrian descent whose family came from England. Norval claimed to have been a captain in the Royal Marines. He was a plantation overseer when he married Cedella Booker, an African-Jamaican then 18 years old. Norval provided financial support for his wife and child, but seldom saw them, as he was often away on trips. In 1955, when Bob Marley was 10 years old, his father died of a heart attack at age 70. Marley faced questions about his own racial identity throughout his life. He once reflected:

The opening with changes

Bob Marley was born on the farm of his maternal grandfather in Nine Mile, Saint Ann Parish, Jamaica to Norval Sinclair Marley and Cedella Booker. His father was an Anglo-Jamaican of British/Syrian descent whose family came from England. Norval claimed to have been a captain in the Royal Marines though when he married Cedella Booker, an African-Jamaican then 18 years old, he was employed as a plantation overseer . His family named him Nesta Robert Marley but in ? a Jamaican passport official reversed his first and middle names. Although Norval provided financial support for his wife and child he seldom saw them as he was often away. Bob Marley attended Stepney Primary and Junior High School which serves the catchment area of Saint Ann. In 1955, when Bob Marley was 10 years old, his father died of a heart attack at the age of 70.

END

As you can see without the date to do with the passport details the chronology is still stuck. So the opening should be without that info until a date is ascertained:

The opening without the passport official

Nesta Robert Marley was born on the farm of his maternal grandfather in Nine Mile, Saint Ann Parish, Jamaica to Norval Sinclair Marley and Cedella Booker. His father was an Anglo-Jamaican of British/Syrian descent whose family came from England. Norval claimed to have been a captain in the Royal Marines though at the time of his marriage to Cedella Booker, an African-Jamaican then 18 years old, he was employed as a plantation overseer . Although Norval provided financial support for his wife and child he seldom saw them as he was often away. Bob Marley attended Stepney Primary and Junior High School which serves the catchment area of Saint Ann. In 1955, when Bob Marley was 10 years old, his father died of a heart attack at the age of 70.

END

This is a rough idea of the changes I wish to make. I won't remove the quote and passport official straight away. The rewrite is only possible if you all agree to the changes - such is the importance of the subject. Please feel free to make suggestions. Does anyone know the date of the passport official's decision?

Sluffs (talk) 11:17, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Mention of Syria needs a ref♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 15:44, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I left the British/Syrian info intact and the ref is there I think. I suggested limiting the descriptor (see one of my posts above - you'll have to find it though since I've raved on about this issue profusely) to your parents definition of themselves to avoid this going back in time which is rarely provable or relevant. Unless Norval is on record as saying he is British/Syrian or Bob or Cedella mentions that Norval told them he was British/Syrian then we should really just stick with the facts we know - both Norval's parents were British born though he was himself born in Jamaica. Heather Marley who is being interviewed says that her grandfather is Norval's brother - both brothers I presume were born in Jamaica. The limit I've suggested to how far you can go back stands for the simple reason it works and going further back is just going to cloud the issue. Its important to remember my concern is only Wikipedia articles. The British/Syrian details should really be removed since it cannot be referenced - Heather Marley saying that her father confirms it because he was told by his mother and grandmother is hardly good enough to warrant inclusion because it doesn't say to what degree (are not Syrian Jews the displaced people from other Eastern lands - when do you draw the line?) and plus anyone who knows their history knows Syria is not actually an old country - it is historically two tribal regions and Syria (a bit like Italy which came into being in the middle of the 19th century) is a modern invention - hence the war out there now as the so called country of Syria shows us that a thousand years of being two distinct tribal regions has not disappeared.

On a related note I was thinking about the Albert Collins article I did a little while ago. It opens with "...was an American blues guitarist" - for months I thought about whether I should go and change it to African-American. I've come to the conclusion that the technical and formal descriptor for genetic heritage and country of birth may not need to have prominence in the opening. The Bob Marley article opens with "...a Jamaican.." and not "European-Jamaican" or "a Jamaican of European and African heritage". I've given it some thought because many articles open with "...an African-American.." when describing the subject. The reason I didn't change Albert Collins to "...an African-American blues guitarist" is because I now believe we can treat the opening differently from the main body of the article.

I would like to propose that all openings should be "country" orientated - so it doesn't matter whether its James Brown, Etta James, Bob Dylan, Kurt Cobain - basically they are all Americans. We can relegate any genetic (or more correctly genetic heritage-country of birth) terms to the article's main body e.g. Early Life section or whatever. So Bob Dylan would be an "American musician" in the opening and in the Early Life section you could say "he was born Robert Zimmerman to a Jewish-American family". This would work on every single article and would actually be correct. Albert Collins would not be a Texas blues musician if he had lived his whole life in Cape Town, South Africa - so Albert Collins is an American musician and the blues an American music genre. So the Early Life section of Albert Collins would have to say "he was born in Leona, Texas to an African-American family". It would also bring a degree of standardization to the openings. Its quite strange that depending on the subject that some editors (including myself) will use African-American sometimes and at other times just American depending on how we feel about the subject. If you take a quick look at the articles on Martin Luther King and Malcolm X you will see that King is described as an "American" in the first sentence and Malcolm as an "African-American". We need to obviously agree to some form of opening standardization and I think this will work. So opening sentence (unless there are strong reasons that the full genetic heritage-country of birth needs to be included) should be "country" only and the Early Life (or whatever the title is at the start of the article's main body) should have the genetic heritage-country of birth descriptor.

Sluffs (talk) 01:15, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Placeholder for details that need to be checked and referenced before inclusion

I'm going to create this section for details about Bob Marley that may need to be included. I'll do it as a bullet list with chronological dates. Please feel free to add any details and dates you want to the list.

• 1962 - this is a site with images of the original labels for the Beverley releases: Bob Marley and the Wailers Simplified Discography 1962

• December 1963/January 1964 - Junior Bratihwaite joins. Below is a quote from the Roger Steffens interview. The reason I'm placing it here is because the early Beverley's singles were released in 1962. The chronological issue is centered around Bob Marley solo releases with the Soul Brothers or Skatalites backing him and later singles released by The Wailers with Junior Braithwaite et al.

Most people think that Bob Marley founded The Wailers, but in fact Junior was a co-founder of the band, along with Peter Tosh and Bunny Wailer. When Braithwaite was just a young teenager, as were all of his bandmates, The Wailers released their first single in December 1963, "Simmer Down." The band at the time featured Bob Marley, Bunny Wailer, Peter Tosh, Beverly Kelso and Junior himself. According to Roger Steffens, who interviewed Braithwaite in 1985, Junior was only in the group for eight months and only sang lead on such songs as, "Habits," "Straight and Narrow Way," "Don't Ever Leave Me," and "It Hurts To Be Alone."

• 1964 (August 29) - Junior Braithwaite flies out to America to join his family. A day earlier, 28 August, Junior is in the studio finishing his vocal for "It Hurts To Be Alone".

• 1967 According to the official JAD Record site Johnny Nash was introduced to Marley in January 1967 while attending a grounation held by a rasta elder called Mortimo Planno. The details on the site seem cool and may actually be highly useful for further investigations e.g. maybe Mortimo Planno has more to do with Bob Marley than he is given credit for - after all he introduced Bob to Nash (just speculation on my part but may be an interesting avenue of research). Here's the link: Bob Marley's first meeting with Johnny Nash - JAD Records Official Site

• 1967 Jamaica Festival Song Competition - the most important and longest running festival in Jamaica for artists. Did Bob Marley enter a song in 1967? According to The Gleaner he did but further proof is needed - maybe one of the other entrants or organizers will go on record. Here's a link to the article at The Gleaner which discusses the track Send Me That Love (on the Wailing Soul Label) which according to their sources was entered and is the only Marley song to have been: - The Gleaner article about Marley at the 1967 Jamaica Festival Song Competition

• DATE NEEDED (probably mid 1960s) - Bob Marley's (as part of The Wailers) first television appearance was on the Jamaican program Saturday Night Sit-In which was produced by Bobby Ghisays. Here's the link to an article at the Gleaner but no date is given so this needs researching and confirming before inclusion: Remembering Bobby Ghisays - Article at The Gleaner

• 1968 The Wikipedia article on Mortimer Planno needs further work - it has the obituary notice from the Independent but is a bit short on life details. As far as this Bob Marley article goes it is known that "Marley recorded several of Planno's songs, notably Haile Selassie is the Chapel, written in 1968" (quote taken from the Guardian Obituary Notice). Here is the link to the Mortimo Planno Obituary notice at the Guardian with details on Bob Marley: Mortimo Planno Obituary Notice - Guardian Newspaper (UK)

• 1972 Johnny Nash UK tour - here's a link to a page that lists those concerts. Ideally we need a Johnny Nash interview or a contemporary UK newspaper gig review: - The Wailing Wailers early shows

The 2012 marley documentary gave great credit to Planno as a major influence on Marley's thinking and yet we dont even mention him. Something else that needs fixing♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 01:56, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for replying SqueakBox. When the information here is more extensive I'll add the details on Mortimer Planno in. I'll also have to go and check the Morgan Heritage article - in my opinion Morgan Heritage is one of the major acts that has carried Marley's message into the 21st century - check out the tune "Guns in the Ghetto" with Bounty Killer.

Sluffs (talk) 12:08, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Early Life section - stripping out non-chronological details

Here's the text as it stands now:

START

Nesta Robert Marley was born on the farm of his maternal grandfather in Nine Mile, Saint Ann Parish, Jamaica, to Norval Sinclair Marley and Cedella Booker.[7] Norval Marley was a European-Jamaican of British/Syrian[8] descent whose family came from England. Norval claimed to have been a captain in the Royal Marines though at the time of his marriage to Cedella Booker, an African-Jamaican then 18 years old, he was employed as a plantation overseer.[9][10] His family named him Nesta Robert Marley though later a Jamaican passport official would reverse his first and middle names.[11][12] Although Norval provided financial support for his wife and child he seldom saw them as he was often away. Bob Marley attended Stepney Primary and Junior High School which serves the catchment area of Saint Ann.[13][14] In 1955, when Bob Marley was 10 years old, his father died of a heart attack at the age of 70.[15] Norval Marley

Marley faced questions about his own racial identity throughout his life. He once reflected:

I don't have prejudice against meself. My father was a white and my mother was black. Them call me half-caste or whatever. Me don't deh pon nobody's side. Me don't deh pon the black man's side nor the white man's side. Me deh pon God's side, the one who create me and cause me to come from black and white.[16]

The Bob Marley House in Nine Mile is a home that he shared with his mother during his youth

Although Marley recognised his mixed ancestry, throughout his life and because of his beliefs, he self-identified himself as a Jamaican of African descent, following the ideas of Pan-African leaders.[citation needed] Marley stated that his two biggest influences were Ethiopian Emperor Haile Selassie I and Marcus Garvey. A central theme in Bob Marley's message was the repatriation to Zion of those of African descent that had been dispersed around the world by the practice of slavery.[17] In songs such as "Survival", "Babylon System", and "Blackman Redemption", Marley sings about the struggles of Africans against oppression from the West or "Babylon".[18]

Marley met Neville Livingston (later known as Bunny Wailer) in Nine Mile. Bob's mother and Bunny's father together had a daughter, who was a younger sister to both Bob and Bunny. Marley and Livingston lived in the same house occasionally and had also started to play music together while at Stepney Primary and Junior High School.[19] Marley left Nine Mile with his mother when he was 12 and moved to Trench Town, Kingston. While in Trench Town, he met up with Livingston again and they formed a musical collaboration with Joe Higgs, a local singer and devout Rastafari. At a jam session with Higgs and Livingston, Marley met Peter McIntosh (later known as Peter Tosh), who had similar musical ambitions.[20] In 1962, Marley recorded his first two singles, "Judge Not" and "One Cup of Coffee", with local music producer Leslie Kong. These songs, released on the Beverley's label under the pseudonym of Bobby Martell,[21] attracted little attention. The songs were later re-released on the box set Songs of Freedom, a posthumous collection of Marley's work.

END

If we remove the quote and the details about his self-identification (move these to a new section) it will look like this:

START

Nesta Robert Marley was born on the farm of his maternal grandfather in Nine Mile, Saint Ann Parish, Jamaica, to Norval Sinclair Marley and Cedella Booker.[7] Norval Marley was a European-Jamaican of British/Syrian[8] descent whose family came from England. Norval claimed to have been a captain in the Royal Marines though at the time of his marriage to Cedella Booker, an African-Jamaican then 18 years old, he was employed as a plantation overseer.[9][10] His family named him Nesta Robert Marley though later a Jamaican passport official would reverse his first and middle names.[11][12] Although Norval provided financial support for his wife and child he seldom saw them as he was often away. Bob Marley attended Stepney Primary and Junior High School which serves the catchment area of Saint Ann.[13][14] In 1955, when Bob Marley was 10 years old, his father died of a heart attack at the age of 70.[15]

Marley met Neville Livingston (later known as Bunny Wailer) in Nine Mile. Bob's mother and Bunny's father together had a daughter, who was a younger sister to both Bob and Bunny. Marley and Livingston lived in the same house occasionally and had also started to play music together while at Stepney Primary and Junior High School.[19] Marley left Nine Mile with his mother when he was 12 and moved to Trench Town, Kingston. While in Trench Town, he met up with Livingston again and they formed a musical collaboration with Joe Higgs, a local singer and devout Rastafari. At a jam session with Higgs and Livingston, Marley met Peter McIntosh (later known as Peter Tosh), who had similar musical ambitions.[20] In 1962, Marley recorded his first two singles, "Judge Not" and "One Cup of Coffee", with local music producer Leslie Kong. These songs, released on the Beverley's label under the pseudonym of Bobby Martell,[21] attracted little attention. The songs were later re-released on the box set Songs of Freedom, a posthumous collection of Marley's work.

END

As you can see we have a smoother Early Life section. The two paragraphs are distinct - the first deals with his very young years and the second is approaching and covering teenage years.

Sluffs (talk) 00:13, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

EDIT COMPLETED. I removed the quote and paragraph. Here is the removed material intact with refs:

START

Marley faced questions about his own racial identity throughout his life. He once reflected:

I don't have prejudice against meself. My father was a white and my mother was black. Them call me half-caste or whatever. Me don't deh pon nobody's side. Me don't deh pon the black man's side nor the white man's side. Me deh pon God's side, the one who create me and cause me to come from black and white.

The Bob Marley House in Nine Mile is a home that he shared with his mother during his youth

Although Marley recognised his mixed ancestry, throughout his life and because of his beliefs, he self-identified himself as a Jamaican of African descent, following the ideas of Pan-African leaders. Marley stated that his two biggest influences were Ethiopian Emperor Haile Selassie I and Marcus Garvey. A central theme in Bob Marley's message was the repatriation to Zion of those of African descent that had been dispersed around the world by the practice of slavery. In songs such as "Survival", "Babylon System", and "Blackman Redemption", Marley sings about the struggles of Africans against oppression from the West or "Babylon".

END

The article is now prepared. That quote and digression about his songs was acting like a block. Its almost impossible to follow a detailed chronology when future quotes or songs are interjected into Early life details. If anyone objects then revert but note that I believe the removed details do have a place in this article just not where they were placed.

Sluffs (talk) 00:50, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Do we have to use the image of Norval Marley?

That image of Norval is too small. You have the big info box with a great Bob Marley image then right underneath this little tiny image of Norval. From an aesthetic point of view it does not work. Since an article for Norval exists with the photo is there any point (in the sense "this is essential") in keeping it here. Its a layout point and I would like to propose removing the image for aesthetic reasons.

Does anyone have any strong reasons why it needs to be included?

Sluffs (talk) 01:40, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Placeholder for removed sentence on Joe Higgs

The sentence needed filling out with more details. Here is a link to a 1985 interview with Junior Braithwaite where he discusses Joe Higgs:

Junior Braithwaite interview at iration

I don't doubt the authenticity of this interview and find it very convincing in its tone. Here is the sentence that I removed:

START

While in Trench Town, he met up with Livingston again and they formed a musical collaboration with Joe Higgs, a local singer and devout Rastafari. At a jam session with Higgs and Livingston, Marley met Peter McIntosh (later known as Peter Tosh), who had similar musical ambitions.

END

If you read the Braithwaite interview the idea of a collaboration is no where to be seen. Higgs seemed to have been a focal point for the five Wailers mentioned by Braithwaite. Mentors, hangout, lets watch them rehearse, we know these dudes and they are out there doing it, etc - Basically the removed sentence says Livingston and Marley formed a collaboration with Higgs which may be true but Braithwaite quite clearly lays down how the Wailers hooked up with Higgs.

18:49, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

It's common knowledge that they rehearsed with Higgs. I don't really see much detail on Higgs at all in the Braithwaite interview (and usually with these things if you asked all five you would have got five different versions of events). Surely it just needed changing from 'formed a musical collaboration' to 'began rehearsing with'? --Michig (talk) 19:18, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

This may help from The Rough Guide to Reggae: "...Joe Higgs, later to be responsible for tutoring young vocal harmony groups like the original Wailers and the Wailing Souls in the kitchen of his home in Trench Town." --Michig (talk) 19:29, 7 November 2013 (UTC) From Dave Thompson's Reggae & Caribbean Music: "[Marley] and Livingstone had already talked about forming a group, and regularly attended the informal coaching sessions held by vocalist Joe Higgs in one of the tenement yards on Third Street. It was there that they met Peter "Tosh" McIntosh and Junior Braithwaite, two more would-be singers, and two backing vocalists, Cherry Green and Beverley Kelso. The group originally called themselves the Teenagers." Remember it's what is verifiable from reliable sources that matters here. --Michig (talk) 19:52, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

The tone of interview with Junior Braithwaite reminded me of the Ernest Ranglin interviews I studiously waded through. It just came across as honest. I prefer to believe the facts as given by participants. The thing about this interview was that it was so matter of fact - Junior Braithwaite has the day of his departure to America (a permanent move and he was 15 so it stuck) etched in his memory and distinctly remembers laying down the vocals for "It Hurts To Be Alone" the day before. The interview was in 1985 and he was looking back at when he was 13 and Bob Marley was 17. I can't see any reason for him to decorate the facts. He doesn't mention how Peter Tosh and the rest met but that is for us to investigate from other sources (preferably the actual participants). You are right that they may all tell a different story but in my surfing around for facts I've discovered quite a few reliable sources that say that Cherry was never a full-time or permanent member. But then hey! at 15 everyone is in the band. lol

The chronology and facts are going to get disputed, refuted and booted but lets at least use the words of the people who were there. Junior Braithwaite should take precedence - the tone of the interview is honest and he seems to be remembering without bias or self-promotion.

Sluffs (talk) 02:05, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Tips and tools for reggae editors

I like reggae and so do many other editors. One of the problems we all face is research and which tools and sites are useful. Even though Talk Pages are archived I thought I'd add a few links showing how to use the Wikipedia Citation Tool for Google books. Its so easy to use you'll wonder why Wikipedia doesn't shout about it on every page. Right lets get to it. Here's a scenario:

You want to write an article about Shabba Ranks. The first thing to do is bookmark the Wikipedia Citation Tool for Google Books:

Click this link and bookmark the Wikipedia Citation Tool for Google Books

Then go to Google and bookmark Google Books:

Click this link and bookmark Google Books

When you have finished type in Shabba Ranks into Google Books and the ubiquitous search results page with all Shabba Ranks stuff will appear. Now obviously this is the part that is totally up to you - select what looks interesting or valid to your research. If you look at the listings you will see some books have no preview, others only a snippet - the ideal is full text or text with pages omitted. Obviously you will see all the well-known reggae authors like Kevin O'Brien Chang, Wayne Chen and Moskowitz so choose a link to click. I've chosen a Spin magazine review of Shabba Ranks from August 1991:

Click this link to open the Spin magazine article on Shabba Ranks

Then simply copy the Spin magazine address from your browser and paste into the Citation Tool field that says Google Books URL. Press load and a ref is automatically generated. Before I go I will say that all the Billboard magazines have been scanned and are available at Google Books. Since Billboard is the music industry trade magazine (not something you find in your newsagent) its incredibly useful for sorting out chart positions, release dates, production credits, etc. So in this case when you go to Google Books to search just type "Shabba Ranks Billboard" and you will have just Billboard related search results for Shabba.

Sluffs (talk) 23:12, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Intro

The intro is too short, IMO. 96.245.167.200 (talk) 13:02, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 April 2014

He was also hindu when he came to Nepal he sang song for load Shiva " Bum Bhole Nath " . 49.244.16.219 (talk) 00:37, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Anupmehra -Let's talk! 01:40, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Over Cat

Heather Marley once stated that he may have had distant Jewish Syrian ancestry. So does this mean him and all his children get to be categorized as having Jewish ancestry. B/c of this one statement a category was created to add to the too many catagories already on this page. per WP:OVERCAT--Inayity (talk) 18:19, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Vegetarianism

I have removed the statement that Marley was vegetarian from the article, because the source cited [1], the International Vegetarian Union, does not state outright that Marley was vegetarian - instead it writes "these last items suggest he was more vegetarian than the minimum required by Rastafarians..." This is not an unequivocal assertion of fact. I would also suggest that the IVU might not be the best source to cite for this anyway - it is in their interest to claim notable people as vegetarians, making their impartiality questionable. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:28, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

The information should be returned, your IVU website doesn't seem to know what it is talking about or what kind of claims it is making. The phrase "more vegetarian than the minimum required by Rastafarians" is meaningless - what is "the minimum required by Rastafarians" (there is no such thing as a "minimum required by Rastafarians") 12:16, 24 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.246.155.236 (talk)

You seem confused - it was the IVU website that was being cited for Marley being vegetarian. Without that, we would have no source at all. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:20, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

No, you seem confused, because I just explained the phrase "more vegetarian than the minimum required by Rastafarians" from this website is meaningless and there is no such thing, yet you want to argue like you don't wanna "hear" that or comprehend it and then call me the confused one! LOL 71.246.155.236 (talk) 12:31, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

What did you mean by 'the information should be returned' then? AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:37, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Everyone knows Marley was a vegetarian. Several prominent biographies of his life and career have been written. Yet you have stripped the reference to his vegetarianism completely now for some reason. Are you having some kind of trouble? 71.246.155.236 (talk) 12:48, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I have removed the statement that Marley was vegetarian because the source cited (IVU) didn't state outright that he was a vegetarian. If you know of a source that says he is, let us know what it is - if it meets our reliability standards, we can restore the section. We cite sources for information. That is how Wikipedia works. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:54, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Pan Africansim

Can we add a section that mentions Bob Marley's Pan Africanist ideals in detail? Many of his songs have Pan Africanist ideologies, and he was known to be heavily influenced by Marcus Garvey. This detail seems important in Marley's life. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kinfoll77 (talk • contribs) 18:10, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 October 2014

The main image of Marley and the one under the "1977–1978: Relocation to England" section are from the same concert, yet the dates in descriptions on the picture infoboxes within the article don't match up. If you click on the images, the actual image descriptions agree on the date (6 July 1980). Can this be fixed? 216.163.246.1 (talk) 19:07, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Done Agree, the uploader of the images said they're from the same concert. I've removed the image, can't figure out a way to move it into 1979 section without making the layout look wonky. Don't particularly see the need to have two images from the same concert anyway Cannolis (talk) 20:19, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 October 2014

Not sure if I am doing this correctly: I have visited Victoria Park in Sydney, and have spoken to two friends who work in adjacent University, there is no "eternal flame" to Bob Marley as indicated in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.169.42.170 (talk) 09:23, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

My thing is not related to this but I heard that Bob Marley was just 4 kg when he died. Is it true or something else? Prabin143 (talk) 02:48, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Small Grammatical correction.

Marley considered cannabis a healing herb, a "sacrament", and an "aid to medication"; Should actually read: Marley considered cannabis a healing herb, a "sacrament", and an "aid to meditation";

I.e. Replace "medication" with "meditation". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevinsproul (talk • contribs) 07:40, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 February 2015

Let me humbly propose a link to Bunny Wailer : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_Wailer

Mistahbrock (talk) 19:29, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Already done There's a link in this section Early life and career Mlpearc (open channel) 21:33, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Converting to Christianity

I'm writing this as of 10/14/2015. The Wiki page for Bob reads that after 8 months of trying the Issels treatment in Europe he flew back to Jamaica, but on the flight his vitals worsened and he was rushed to the hospital, passing away on 5/11/1981. Unfortunately I cannot find how long he stayed in the hospital, but I couldn't imagine it was very long. I write all this to bring up the issue of the claim that on 11/4/1980, Marley was supposedly baptized into Christianity. However, if we go back eight months from 5/11/1981 that puts us into September of 1980. If he was in Europe for eight months then he couldn't of been baptized in Jamaica in November of 1980. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.205.159.67 (talk) 20:13, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

While countering these claims with supposition like this would violate WP:NOR, I too have problems with the conversion to Christianity section. The current citations are by no means reliable sources, and I could find almost nothing to back up these claims that can be reliably sourced. Could anyone provide reliable sourcing to support his conversion? I am tempted to remove the information otherwise, as this is a fairly contentious claim, and should require very good sourcing per WP:EXCEPTIONAL UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 10:22, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

It can be found in this book. Karst (talk) 10:55, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

The claims essentially can be traced back to a 1984 interview in the Sunday Gleaner magazine with Abuna Yesehaq, archbishop of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church:

Abuna Yesehaq: Bob was really a good brother, a child of God, regardless of how people looked at him. He had a desire to be baptised long ago, but there were people close to him who controlled him and who were aligned to a different aspect of Rastafari. But he came to Church regularly. I remember once while I was conducting the Mass, I looked at Bob and tears were streaming down his face.... When he toured Los Angeles and New York and England, he preached the Orthodox Faith, and many members in those cities came to the Church because of Bob. Many people think he was baptised because he knew he was dying, but that is not so... he did it when there was no longer any pressure on him, and when he was baptised, he hugged his family and wept, they all wept together for about half an hour.[2]

There are many reliable-looking sources that say Marley was baptized into the Ethiopian Orthodox faith. Here's a selection:

• The First Rasta: Leonard Howell and the Rise of Rastafarianism
• The Rastafarians: Twentieth Anniversary Edition
• Reggae Heritage: Jamaica's Music History, Culture & Politics
• Chanting Down Babylon: The Rastafari Reader
• Catch a Fire

..but perhaps it would be better to have confirmation from someone in Marley's circle, as it seems that most sources are relying on Abuna Yesehaq's testimony. --Hillbillyholiday ^talk 11:14, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

The Guardian article on Marley's funeral that I cited previously notes the following "The day of the funeral began with an hour-long service for family and close friends at the Ethiopian Orthodox Church of the Holy Trinity on Maxfield Avenue, presided over by His Eminence Abuna Yesehaq, the church's archbishop in the western hemisphere, who had baptised Marley in New York the previous November, just after his last triumphal concerts at Madison Square Garden. Bob's baptismal name was Berhane Selassie – "Light of the Trinity"..

Perhaps that should be added. Karst (talk) 11:26, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I think that this Guardian source and Catch a Fire will suffice. In this TV interview (jump to 7m 05s) Yesehaq says only Marley's immediate family witnessed the baptism as Marley didn't particularly want it publicized. It would be nice to have Rita Marley confirm it (perhaps all this stems from one archbishop's propaganda, you know what they're like), but for our purposes, I think we've got enough evidence here. --Hillbillyholiday ^talk 11:52, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your quick response! Most of those sources are not really what I would call reliable, especially for this information (But I understand that there are very few RS qualified sources for this info as I looked too). For starters, they all say something different. The First Rasta one says he was baptized in a New York hotel room, the Reggae Heritage one says he was baptized in a Miami hospital, Catch a Fire says only that Rita had him baptized, and the Chanting Down Babylon (which appears to be the only one to cite sources) only says that Abuna Yesehaq claimed he was baptized in Jamaica. These discrepancies are indicative of the dubious nature of the claim. As it stands, since Chanting Down Babylon is the only one to cite sources, it is the only one I would really consider reliable, and it does not make a statement as to whether or not the event actually happened, only that Yesehaq claimed it did, so I would suggest that we refer to it as a claim made by him rather than a definitively proven event. Secondly, as the interviews with Yesehaq seem to be the source of this information, it is interesting to note that this is from those interviews: "'I did baptize Bob Marley in the presence of his wife Rita Marley and his children. Only the family, because he was not so willing to have it officially, it was difficult for him…which I don’t want to describe.' Read more: http://jamaicans.com/interview_abundayesehaq/#ixzz3tA4zLS7l" Which would seem to indicate that Bob Marley never publicly converted. Because of all this I really think we should source the claim to Yesehaq rather than stating it as fact in Wikipedia's voice, per WP:EXCEPTIONAL UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 11:47, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree. --Hillbillyholiday ^talk 11:55, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I have boldly re-arranged the text in the article to match this. If you feel it could be phrased better please feel free to change it! UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 12:08, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Ah ha! Just found Rita's autobiography No Woman, No Cry where she mentions the baptism as happening on 4th November, 1980. With this and Catch a Fire (which is very well-researched) we have enough now to state it as a fact. --Hillbillyholiday ^talk 12:16, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Well that points to New York and the Cancer Treatment Centre where the baptism took place. I added this with reference to the Guardian article, will add the book reference too now. Karst (talk) 12:28, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't know, the significant discrepancies in the location of the baptism make it seem a lot less supported than it should be to overcome WP:EXCEPTIONAL, which particularly applies to things like the when a substantial claim is made that is out of character with the previous stance of the person in question (i.e. a last minute, hidden from public view conversion of religion that is never discussed by the person who supposedly converted and who publicly espoused his previous religion)UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 12:37, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I would not call those significant. The Rita Marley autobiography is quite clear that Bob moved between treatment centers in Miami, Germany and New York City. Considering the Ethiopian bishop is also noted to have a residence in New York, I think we can confidently confirm that was the venue. I would agree on the WP:EXCEPTIONAL stance if Rita Marley had not mentioned it and the Guardian article had not indicated that prior to the funeral a service linked to the baptism took place. Karst (talk) 12:45, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate your concerns, but between his wife and the testimony of the officiating archbishop we have enough to state it as fact. If you can find a source which doubts the baptism took place we can look again at rewording, but for now I think we're done. --Hillbillyholiday ^talk 12:55, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

After re-reading the sources, and with the removal of Jamaica as the place of baptism, I am not as concerned as I was before. One of my main issues of contention was that if, as the article had previously stated and the wording of at least one of the sources seemed to indicate, the claim was that he was baptized in Kingston Jamaica on Nov 4th 1980, that conflicts with his known locations around that time i.e. Miami, Germany, and NYC as Karst pointed out. However, it seems that this could have been a misinterpretation of the source's wording. Where it said "baptized into the Ethiopian Orthodox Church in Jamaica" it could have been referring to "the Ethiopian Orthodox Church in Jamaica" as an entity rather than stating that Jamaica was where it took place, and it is much less exceptional to claim he was baptized (Even a last minute baptism) on the east coast where we know he was. Sorry if I seemed obstinate, it was not my intention. UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 13:11, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Rape accusations

I cant find were this was talked about before..but lets bring it up again I guess...I see the old version was deleted long ago...where we mention the accusation then change of position by Rita...tell the whole story not just the juicy points. What do others think?

So what do we have for sources

• Johnson Publishing Company (2003). Jet. Johnson Publishing Company. p. 54. ISSN 0021-5996. he raped me

• John Masouri (2009). Wailing Blues - The Story of Bob Marley's Wailers. Omnibus Press. p. 932. ISBN 978-0-85712-035-9. Here they are quoting the tabloid news above not the book...as seen bellow

• Rita Marley (2013). No Woman No Cry: My Life with Bob Marley. Hachette Books. p. 66. ISBN 978-1-4013-0569-7. The next time Bob came back to Jamaica, I was almost raped
• Her reply to the BBC about the tabloid report Media 'out to get me' says Marley.

If we mention this is should be like its is at Jason Toynbee (2013). Bob Marley: Herald of a Postcolonial World. John Wiley & Sons. p. 88. ISBN 978-0-7456-5737-0. ....here they mention both the accusation reported by the press and the change of position when the book came-out.

-- Moxy (talk) 18:13, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

I do not understand why this should be so problematic, I propose ....

In the first edition of her autobiography 'No Woman, No Cry: My Life With Bob Marley', Rita claimed that Bob raped her on several occasions. She also repeated the allegation in an interview with the Daily Mirror 'He said to me, 'No, you're my wife and you're supposed to.' So he forced himself on me, and I call that rape'. These accusations were met with much hostility and in later editions of her autobiography she changed the wording to 'almost raped'.

Unibond (talk) 18:24, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

To be clear here your saying the bio changed over time? Need to see this as this has never been mentioned before. The interview was done to promote the book never heard things changed in the bio before. -- Moxy (talk) 18:40, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Moxy that the Toynbee source is best here:

• Jason Toynbee (2013). Bob Marley: Herald of a Postcolonial World. p. 88. Rita has claimed that she was raped there [Bull Bay] by Bob in 1973 after he returned from London, and asked her to care for another child he was going to have by a woman there (Roper 2004). The formulation changes to 'almost raped' in her autobiography (Marley 2005: 113). But in any event, it seems clear that Bob behaved in an oppressive way towards her, always providing financial support for herself and the children it is true, yet frequently humiliating and bullying her.

Sure, we could include more information regarding Bob and Rita's marriage, but I won't attempt it. Unibond, your proposed wording is again a misrepresentation of the sources and most certainly should not be added. --Hillbillyholiday ^talk 18:45, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

I am also happy with that wording and will make the insert Unibond (talk) 14:58, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

---

References

Celtic FC

A few years ago it came t light that BM was a a fan of Scottish football club Celtic Fc. Could the page editor make the change to reflect this.

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/13226977._So_Bob_Marley_asked_me____Are_you_the_Dixie_Deans_who_used_to_play_for_Celtic___WHEN_A_PARKHEAD_LEGEND_MET_A_REGGAE_SUPERSTAR/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.102.47.218 (talk) 15:09, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 February 2016

Aside from music, football played a major role throughout his life. As well as playing the game, in parking lots, fields, and even inside recording studios, growing up he followed the Brazilian club Santos and its star player Pelé. As it states in "Trench Town Rock" by Mario Vargas Llosa, "in the glory of his last years as well as in the poverty of his early years, his only joy was the dust and the breeze of Trench Town: kicking a soccer ball around, immersing himself in mysterious introspection from which he would return to the world either euphoric or in tears, scrawling a song in a school notebook, exploring a melody as he strummed his guitar, or swallowing the bittersweet smoke of his ganja cigar."Marley surrounded himself with people from the sport, and in the 1970s made the Jamaican international footballer Allan “Skill” Cole his tour manager. He told a journalist, “If you want to get to know me, you will have to play football against me and the Wailers.” Swaggychief (talk) 04:09, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --allthefoxes ^(Talk) 18:35, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

References

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• Needed to remove the 4th link, as it does not function, and it does not seem right being there. -- The Voidwalker ^Discuss 01:20, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 February 2016

I would like to add a footnote to the section regarding illness and death. I would like to put under the footnote that "Bob Marley died of metastic malignant melanoma which originated on the big toe of his right foot. In non-medical terminology, melanoma is a skin cancer which, if caught early enough, is usually curable with aggressive treatment."

References

Hwetton (talk) 23:31, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Question: Where did you want the footnote? The article may have changed since your request. I couldn't find the sentence before the footnote in the article. Or did you want the entire sentence and footnote added? If so, where precisely? Datbubblegumdoe^{[talk – contribs]} 04:41, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template.  ^B E _C K ^Y _S A ^{Y L} E _S  07:19, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

a missing part in the orders and awards section

Bob received "Order of Emperor Haile Selassie I" I want to say in 1996

http://www.ethiopiancrown.org/decorations.htm#TheOrderofEmperorHaileSelassieI

http://royalorders.4t.com/empireofethiopia.htm

http://www.medals.org.uk/ethiopia/ethiopia009.htm

Blessings, Ras TreeTree Crossroads — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:330C:C190:B875:C544:2C4B:A295 (talk) 13:30, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2016

"He is considered one of the most influential musicians of all time and credited with popularizing reggae music around the world, as well as serving as a symbol of Jamaican culture and identity. Marley has also evolved into a global symbol, which has been endlessly merchandised through a variety of mediums."

Timothybrace (talk) 15:26, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 15:35, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

After Death

Marley is still the top selling reggae artist of all time. His albums continue to sell at a high rate to this day, averaging between 1,000-2,500 sold per week. Two years later, Confrontation came out. It was an album that was made from songs, including Buffalo Soldier, never released by Marley. Buffalo Soldier would go on to be his highest rated song coming in at number 4 on the official charts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rossittel (talk • contribs) 04:26, 28 September 2016 (UTC)