Talk:Bankruptcy/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Citation Source Question

I added to the US/Chapters section a while back the following: "(As much as 65% of all U.S. consumer bankruptcy filings are of the Chapter 7 variety.)" The citation link was recently removed; "removed commercial external link not meeting WP:RS as a source". So here's the question: if the citation was untrusted, then why was the fact retained? Alternately, if the fact was good, why was the citation of that fact removed? Just trying to understand how things work around here, thanks. —Preceding comment added by Yankeerudy (talk • contribs) 13:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Biblical References in the "History" Section

I made corrections in the first paragraph of "The West" subsection under the "History" section to reflect the following points as discretely as possible.

1. The Jewish Year of Jubilee (Vayikra/Leviticus 25:10) applies to all the inhabitants of the land, both Jewish and otherwise, while the seven-year debt forgiveness (Devarim/Deuteronomy 15:3) applies only to Jews, purposefully overlooking the non-Jewish inhabitants of the land.
2. Neither reference to the Jewish Torah or the Christian Old Testament mention that they are essentially the same source and that both sources can be applied to both statements.
3. Neither reference indicates that these two instructions coexist in the same cyclic, Hebrew calender.

Southtown (talk) 16:20, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Moral bankruptcy

Where does the expression "moral bankruptcy" come from, and could it be included in a part of this article ? ADM (talk) 03:26, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Non-exempt

I think the term "non-exempt" should have a link to a list of the items or definitions that the law defines as non-exempt.

Done. Well, it's actually just a reference to types of exempt items; there isn't actually a list of all items -- the law varies by state, so this would be a pretty major effort by a future contributor.Tempshill 17:48, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I'd appreciate contributions anyone might write about bankruptcy in countries other than the USA, and then some analysis of the comparison. Tempshill 17:48, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC) 115.42.65.227 (talk) 07:11, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I will try to post some information based on European practices.HoulihanLokey (talk) 00:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Great, but please try to do so without making reference to your company or its products. --CliffC (talk) 04:17, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

What is the best way to address the banner requests for citations and verifications without the reference? HoulihanLokey (talk) 20:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

In a nutshell, "the best way to address" such requests is to not address them at all, due to your conflict of interest. I've answered the question in more detail on your talk page, here. --CliffC (talk) 03:13, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

If you would like to expand the bankruptcy article as Tempshill does here, the book A Practitioner's Guide to Corporate Restructuring contains in-depth chapters on legal analysis of bankruptcy in England and Wales, France, Germany, Italy, The Netherlands and Spain. But please give proper attribution to the expert information so that you do not violate the copyright. HoulihanLokey (talk) 17:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

---

I've made some major mods to this page to (what I think will) enhance accuracy for USA filers.

I've also made what could be construed as two a controversial changes. Rdsmith4 previously excised two links to www.beko.biz which when I last checked, was a link farm registered in Ireland. While it might have had some useful information if one continued clicking through from the referenced page, it felt too much like a commercial link. What will make this even more controversial was that I added an arguably self-serving but information-only link to my own Florida-only Florida Bankruptcy FAQ site. I invite redaction/comment as WPedians feel appropriate. Flawiki 23:58, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Deliberate serial bankruptcy?

Is there an expression in English for someone who makes a living out of being listed as CEO or chairman of companies that are involved in a murky finance scam or are getting their funds siphoned off? Typically, the kind of guy ýou hire is a down-and-out, a boozer and/or petty criminal, who has next to no chance of landing an honest job again or even a sick pension and who can feign that he has nothing of value, so that any judicial attempt to make him responsible for foul play or force him to personal bankruptcy will be a waste of time. And often the person will have a dozen such rogue VIP-ships at the same time. I'm sure the phenomemon exists in Britain and the US too; in Sweden those figures are called "goalkeepers". I'd like to know both judicial and colloquial words, and please indicate if it's British or U.S expressions. Thanks! /Strausszek (talk) 01:23, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

How can anyone say this article is more about the US than the rest of the world?

I mean, it covers most of the developed world, US, Canada and Europe, all that's really missing is Asia & Australia, so I think the neutrality dispute needs to come down pronto. Adg2k7 21:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

P.S.--I also added a link to the ITSA website for bankruptcy laws that pertain to Australia, under the new heading “Bankruptcy in Australia”, in the article. I hope my contribution will prove useful.Adg2k7 21:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

P.P.S.--I put up an article called Restructuring in Asia, as a very small start to the section Bankruptcy in Asia, and have added notices that the short section requires more info and the "Help Improve" marker in that section as well so that we may finally start to balance out the article and make it have a neutral P.O.V., per Wikipedia guidelines. Oh and you're welcome, everyone...Adg2k7 22:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Read the prior section of the talk page. Neutrality is a problem because it fails to cover all significant points of view. Geographic coverage issues are a different issue. Making progress on the geographic issues is indeed progress, but a different type of progress. For neutrality, we need to cover the unaddressed view that bankruptcy is inherently unethical.

There is progress being made in geography, but there is a lot more to go. Where is coverage of the Islamic version, if any? Bankruptcy in the third world? The Communist world (if relevant)? The world is not just the English speaking developed countries. GRBerry 22:07, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I read through this article to evaluate it on its coverage of 'Bankruptcy' generally (as opposed to any specific system) and I find it badly organized, especially with respect to country. The first section is only about Bankruptcy development in the US and spends way too many words on esoteric squabbling over creation of the 'Bankruptcy Courts' and their expansive power to hear all related controversies or not. Either that section should be wholesale cut and merged into the US specific article or it needs significant trimming down to get it out of the way of non-US readers. Also there should be some explanation of how the US development of bankruptcy affects or affected Bankruptcy more generally (again assuming this remains in this article at all.) Drew LoPucki (talk) 15:51, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

There is no mention of nor link to Credit Counseling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_counseling despite the fact that a consumer in the USA cannot file for bankruptcy without first consulting a Credit Counselor and paying to take their class in how to handle credit. The lack of this destroys the value of the article on bankruptcy in the USA. ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rumjal (talk • contribs) 19:51, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

External links

I would like to provide people with common and frequently asked questions with accurate and efficient answers. Those have been preserved in my website - http://www.nybankruptcyinfo.com/frequently-asked-questions.html, hope providing my website in external links will help people who are struggling with various bankruptcy scenarios. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nmgehi (talk • contribs) 09:23, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I think http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/ should go back in, as it's equilvalent to the US bankruptcy courts, from their info [1] it works under a statuarory framework, and is a sub department of the Department of Trade and Industry, so as a UK government body, think it's a very appropiate link. Another possibility would be to have no external links at all, and move all country specific ones under their sub article, but I think that would be too harsh MartinRe 15:51, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I probably shouldn't have deleted the non-profit link either. Sorry about the friendly fire. Monkeyman 02:26, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

No problem Monkeyman - I will cut down on the coffee too lol. Regads Sean

I attempted to add a reference to a flow chart showing the overview of US bankruptcy procedure but the link was removed as apparently not being in compliance in some way. The flowchart was created by a UCLA/Harvard law professor of bankruptcy law (Professor Lynn M. LoPucki). The page has only the flowchart and some navigation links at the top of the page. I believe the information is a valuable addition to the external link resources for this topic. --24.136.33.30 (talk) 01:48, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

That is a commercial site that is selling said chart. The credit card visuals in the upper-right that refuse to scroll out of view are a good clue that the site violates WP:EL. Is there some super-sauce there that cannot somehow be incorporated into Wikipedia itself rather than as a lame external link? The proper way to add value to the Wikipedia article is to take (in a non-infringing manner) whatever novel information you can glean from the link and incorporate it into the article itself, either as words or as an original graphic. Please read and grok the external links policy. Thanks for your desire to contribute; see the welcome page for more information on how to help. --Kbh3^rdtalk 00:01, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

No to all, per WP:EL and WP:COI. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 14:27, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

The WP:EL does not appear to forbid all forms of commerce at external links. It specifically contemplates the amount of advertising at such sites, for instance. This site (bankruptcyvisuals.com) exists primarily as a means of providing Professor LoPucki's exceptional charts to all net users free of charge and with no registration or other 'hurdles'. It is true that the main site (not the chart page that was the target of 24.136.33.30's link) offers the charts for sale in printed form. That is mainly for the benefit of those that teach bankruptcy, practice bankruptcy law, or need to reference bk procedure in connection with some other business. Bankruptcyvisuals.com does not try to confuse or redirect users in any way. Sale of the printed charts is how bankruptcyvisuals pays for itself.

As for including the information from the chart in the article itself, how would you propose to do that? The entire point of the chart is to parse the thousands of pages of the code and rules and then distill it into a 'face' of the procedure - but one that continues to show what code and rules create each node in the graphic. I cannot think of any way of including that inside the article itself. Copying the chart image itself into the article is absolutely verboten under US Copyright law. I hope this helps answer some concerns. Drew LoPucki (talk) 17:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

specifically to Kbh3rd's suggestion of including an 'original' graphic that would capture the 'novel' 'super-sauce' from the graphic: that is very bad advice ( despite the modifying phrase "in a non-infringing way".) Such a graphic would be by definition a derivative work of Professor LoPucki's chart. As such, making and distributing such work would be an infringement of his copyright. The only thing you can copy from the chart are facts. The value (super-sauce) of the chart is how it displays the facts, not the facts themselves. Again I hope that this clarifies what bankruptcyvisuals offers the curious wrt bankruptcy law. Drew LoPucki (talk) 17:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Possible copyright infringement?

The entire section "History and development of bankruptcy" reads like it was copy-and-pasted from a book. Even the last sentence states "The changes effected by this act are discussed in the chapters that follow." Further, there are a number of in-line citations to statutes, but everything else asserted is unsupported. Without references, you can't tell if this section was lifted from a book en toto or if it's a legitimate, non-copyrighted consolidation of facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.200.38.244 (talk) 17:10, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

The best case scenario is that it's a badly-written, poorly referenced section that needs rewriting anyway, so we should do that at the least. A copyvio would be hard to prove, as Googling various phrases gives only Wiki mirrors and no book results. Can we afford to take the risk? It might be better just to remove the section and start over. Alzarian16 (talk) 19:44, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

States and

Most/all nation states are massively insolvent. Recent events and completeness call for explicit statement of the inapplicability at the macro/systemic level if that is the case. It is certainly not the case that it is only applicable to natural accumulators. Lycurgus (talk) 10:19, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Cartoosh's View

So...is that cartoon near the see also relevant? 174.30.64.102 (talk) 21:34, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, why I created next thread. BTW it's more like 20 trillion now. 108.183.102.223 (talk) 10:23, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Unjustified statement - citation link does not support statement

Statement : hiring a petition preparer (which have a track record of shoddy work and unsuccessful cases),[25]
Citation number implies that this statement is supported by a news article.

Actual article does not use the phrase "shoddy" or "substandard" or "unsuccessful".
The cited article covers "misleading customers into believing they were receiving legal advice" and "motions seeking to stop bankruptcy petition preparers or to reduce their fees." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.66.64.244 (talk) 17:51, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. I have removed the unsourced material. Famspear (talk) 22:44, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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