Talk:Anne Heche/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Semi-Protected for 3 days

Some significant unsubstantiated information has been added to the article in relation to current events involving the article subject. I have semi-protected the page for 3 days while this all sorts itself out. As this article is covered under the biography of living persons policy, any and all information added (particularly with respect to the current events) must be reliably sourced, preferably with multiple reliable sources. Risker (talk) 04:20, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

The LA Times cites law enforcement officials in its reporting that she was "deemed to be" DUI. Have added this to 'Car Crashes' section in the confidence that, as this is the assessment of LEOs and not merely gossip or speculation, it meets the standard of encyclopedic fact. Zedembee (talk) 20:09, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 August 2022

Anne Heche has been moved into the ICU and is facing a long road ahead for her recovery according to KTLA 5. 2001:5B0:4FC6:6DB8:C47E:9BF0:98D3:4ADB (talk) 00:13, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:26, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Copyright violation in Mental Illness section

Per the template I inserted at the top of the page (only to be removed by an admin), the top half of the "Mental Illness" section was an obvious copyright violation taken from https://people.com/archive/yep-its-over-vol-54-no-10/

The changes are too old and numerous to enumerate. —Danorton (talk) 02:00, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

I have identified the original insertion, which was over 10 years ago, in 2012:

• 2012-03-19T01:24:09‎ Symbols100 talk contribs‎ 26,767 bytes +1,875‎ No edit summary

URL: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anne_Heche&oldid=482644545 —Danorton (talk) 02:19, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

If it's a copy/paste job, obviously that had to be gotten rid of. However, the info given in that paragraph is a highly important piece of the article, and, in fact, the section makes no sense now without any description of the incident. This needs to be rewritten as properly paraphrased from the source material, and there are several news sources for this story. I'm going to put some kind of 'incomplete' section tag on it in the meantime. Peter G Werner (talk) 07:24, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

I paraphrased it to the best of my ability using the source that was already used in that section. If anyone wishes to take a look at it they are welcome to do so. Additional details can also be added from other sources, if any users have access to them online or in print. Keivan.f^Talk 04:49, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2022

She’s dead 24.218.85.247 (talk) 08:40, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Favonian (talk) 08:47, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't think we need to keep dignifying inane requests from obvious trolls like this. If it's been answered once on the page, then if there's been no change to the status quo (there hasn't been, I just looked), we should be able to revert these requests on sight. It's not our problem if readers can't take two seconds to verify what else is on the page and not make a repeat request; barring that, I can only assume this user is a troll. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist ^{(Speak quickly)} _{(Follow my trail)} 08:49, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

No media outlets report her as deceased. I have no power of say here, but until her heart stops beating (which could be tomorrow), no date of death should be listed and no usage of was should be used.

YouTube interview misquoted

I tried to make a (very small!) edit to the Nancy Heche quotation about Anne's brother Nathan's suicide. My edit was undone by @FMSky with the note "don't change quotes" (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anne_Heche&oldid=1104074244). But the current quotation is incorrect. All I attempted to do was correct the text so that it matches the actual quotation from the interview. It shouldn't be in quotation marks if it's not an exact quote. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV3B5oD-nBs&t=724s Philip Kiff 14:49, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

my bad, i thought it was from a written source. i restored your edit --FMSky (talk) 14:50, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Death confirmed by RS

Anne Heche has died. She was critically injured in a car crash & died a week later. This was confirmed by her family after she was removed from life support. She was 53. 91.109.232.201 (talk) 17:53, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Correct. Her obituary is now up on The Guardian. FlantasyFlan (talk) 17:56, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I see reliable sources only referencing a single primary source, that from her friend, Nancy Davis.. Is there a secondary source that cites a different primary source? —Danorton (talk) 18:23, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, it's iffy. None of the other news sites, such as AP, Reuters, NYT, etc. have independently confirmed Heche's death. Maybe go back to present tense until there's a consensus among sources. FlantasyFlan (talk) 18:34, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Actually, the only secondary source I see is in the UK, where Brain death describes Legal death, which might be the source of the confusion. —Danorton (talk) 18:40, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

NOT dead as of 11 AM PDT Aug 12

"She was declared brain dead last night but has been kept on life support for organ donation. Her heart is still beating." [https://twitter.com/Nancy__Dillon/status/1558152722062356482 Nancy Dillon Rolling Stone. Yes, beyond tragic. The only reliable secondary source I see is in the UK, where brain death is legal death. —Danorton (talk) 18:47, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

From Yahoo!

Update: About an hour later, her rep told TMZ that she is "brain dead," and, under California law, that is the legal definition of death. However, the rep explained that the actress is still on life support machines to keep her heart beating to preserve her organs for future donation. However, they stated that she has no brain function. [1]

EvergreenFir (talk) 18:51, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

From People:

The family's rep confirms to PEOPLE that, while Heche is legally dead according to California law, her heart is still beating and she has not been taken off life support in order to allow OneLegacy Foundation enough time to find recipients who will be a match. [2]

EvergreenFir (talk) 18:54, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

See LA Times: Anne Heche is ‘brain dead’ but remains on life support for organ donation, rep says —Danorton (talk) 18:55, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

That still means she's dead legally. The notion of medicolegal death varies by jurisdiction. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:56, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

There needs to be a RS that clearly states she's dead. The only RS cited thus far is in the UK, where they source a friends IG post and where brain dead = legal death. —Danorton (talk) 19:04, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

We can simply say that the sources say... she's dead per California law. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:11, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

dead Moonlightfocus (talk) 19:02, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

ANNE HAS DIED. LOOK AT THE NEWS…… Wikisteveb4 (talk) 19:06, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Are you excited by this? Get a grip. There's no prize for first. freshacconci (✉) 19:13, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

FYI- there appears to be multiple non-UK RSes confirming her death now:

• https://www.ign.com/articles/anne-heche-actress-in-films-including-i-know-what-you-did-last-summer-declared-legally-dead
• https://ew.com/celebrity/anne-heche-dead-53-crash-obituary/
• https://nypost.com/2022/08/12/actress-anne-heche-dead-at-53-after-horror-car-crash/
• https://tvline.com/2022/08/12/anne-heche-dead-dies-car-accident-cause-of-death-obituary/
• https://www.thewrap.com/anne-heche-another-world-actress-dies-53-crash/
• https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-news/anne-heche-actress

Any number of those should be good at this point... Magitroopa (talk) 19:11, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

They are probably waiting for the MSM to come forward with it, if they can find anyone to pull off of anything Trump related... posty (talk) 19:35, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Footnote

I have added a footnote explaining she is dead per California law. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:19, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

You didn't merely add a footnote. You changed the whole article to say she's dead. Still major reliable sources like AP and CNN haven't declared her dead. What you can do is relegate legally dead as a note in the details. FlantasyFlan (talk) 19:25, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

She's dead. RS do say it. I added another source. My students will tell you "death" is not a clear cut thing some times EvergreenFir (talk) 19:26, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Dead in your definition. But think about why orgs like NYT, CNN, NPR, Reuters, AP still haven't declared her so. An Instagram post by a friend is not reliable. Stop the editing wars. Whether you have students or not is moot. FlantasyFlan (talk) 19:29, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

No, dead in literally the only definition that matters: the one where the death certificate is issued. Your cultural definitions != truth in this case. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:30, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

No. Truth = all organs stop working, not just brain. She is still not dead as people understand it as of this reply. Her heart is still beating. Apple4ever (talk) 18:49, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Your interpretation of the meaning of "dead" is classified as “Original Research”; see Wikipedia:No original research. What is required is consistent reporting by reliable sources that specifically indicate that "Anne Heche is dead." Provide those reliable resources (not tabloids) and there's no argument. —Danorton (talk) 21:49, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

@Danorton: You're exactly correct. - FlightTime (open channel) 22:04, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I provided plenty of sources to support the "dead" term. This was not OR. EvergreenFir (talk) 01:54, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2022

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2022/aug/12/anne-heche-death-actor-dies-week-after-car-crash-aged-53?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other She died here is the the source. AK (talk) 17:56, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

 Already done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:58, 12 August 2022 (UTC) Peter G Werner (talk) 02:02, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Videos on TMZ

I know TMZ is a controversial source, per WP:TMZ, but they've posted several videos that appear to show Heche's Minicooper speeding through neighborhoods near the crash at a high rate of speed. One of the videos apparently includes the sounds of the crash right after the image of the vehicle speeding by. Another video shows her reversing and leaving the scene of her earlier accident where she has struck an apartment garage: https://www.tmz.com/2022/08/08/anne-heche-new-video-fly-down-alley-before-hit-run/ Peter G Werner (talk) 02:01, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Also worth noting: LA station KTTV Fox 11 News is reporting this video as authentic: https://www.foxla.com/news/anne-heche-in-coma-after-fiery-mar-vista-crash Peter G Werner (talk) 03:20, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

drinking during podcast

This information has been confirmed by numerous sources (and anyone can pull this up). It should be added to the article in the crash section. 50.111.25.27 (talk) 07:34, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

If you can provide RS that are robust enough for a BLP that support this then go ahead and add it... Unbh (talk) 08:49, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

However, what's also come out in the reporting about Heche being drunk during her most recent podcast episode is 1) The podcast was posted the *day before* her accident, and 2) her co-host claims it was recorded several days prior to it being posted. Hence, unless that person is lying, the podcast does not give an account of her sobriety on the day of the accident and should not be reported as such. If there's a reliable source disputing her co-host's account, that's a different story. Peter G Werner (talk) 05:20, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2022 (2)

Anne heche has not died. She is on life support and not expected to live but she is still on life support. I work for a news station in Los Angeles 68.225.236.131 (talk) 18:52, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

She is reportedly dead in the legal sense per California law. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:54, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

That belongs in the article as a detail, but not to be used to write that she's dead. Nowhere in Wikipedia's guidelines does it say legal death means death. Check out Natalee Holloway. FlantasyFlan (talk) 19:27, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

@FlantasyFlan https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/12/entertainment/anne-heche-family-statement/index.html EvergreenFir (talk) 19:28, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Expectation she will die is not death. Get an NYT, AP, CNN, or another source to say she's dead, and you're more than welcome to make the edit. FlantasyFlan (talk) 19:32, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Are the dozen sources already saying it not sufficient? It's not an expectation that she will die. She is dead and machines are keeping her tissues oxygenated prior to removal. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:37, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

The dozen sources are all citing her friend's Instagram post claiming she's legally dead. It's about quality, not quantity. Stop vandalizing. FlantasyFlan (talk) 19:39, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Stop calling this vandalism when it's a content dispute. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:41, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

No, it's not a content dispute, this is vandalism. This is clearly a violation of W:RS. "The malicious removal of encyclopedic content, or the changing of such content beyond all recognition, without any regard to our core content policies of neutral point of view (which does not mean no point of view), verifiability and no original research, is a deliberate attempt to damage Wikipedia." Again, CNN, NPR, NYT, WAPOST, ABC, CBS, NBC, CBC all haven't said she's dead. You know this, but you keep the vandalism going. Shame on you. FlantasyFlan (talk) 19:46, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

She never got this much attention when she was alive... posty (talk) 19:48, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Here you go, the liberal rags are starting to weigh in.... posty (talk) 19:53, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/anne-heche-dead-at-53-following-car-crash/ar-AA10BiJI?cvid=95497e296dec4cd3ada97f6b49f00edd posty (talk) 19:53, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

The LA Times is now saying that she has been "removed from life support", which should end any doubt.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:44, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Death

I think you need to change what you’re saying about her being dead Anne Heche is not dead she’s on life-support right now so technically she’s not dead and I think all of your being disgusting saying that she’s dead when she’s not dead yet. And her family would help hold out she might come out of this alive and well in walking round you never now I think the families giving up too soon and I think you people are telling false truth she’s not dead 71.209.210.201 (talk) 19:53, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

She is "brain dead", no one comes back from that.... posty (talk) 20:00, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

She has been declared dead according to California law, so she is dead.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:03, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I replied to someone else earlier, but simply put, a state legal definition of death is not appropriate or intended for an encyclopedic article. 76.88.250.233 (talk) 21:30, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Her death has been confirmed in several reliable sources. Doctors are harvesting organs for transplant donation. Cullen328 (talk) 21:34, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 August 2022

I am requesting that "and was removed from life support the the following day on August 12" be removed from "Heche was declared brain dead a few hours later on August 11" until more than one news outlet confirms that she has indeed been removed from life support, since it seems that the public is getting conflicting news reports from multiple news outlets as to whether or not life support for Heche has been stopped. 2600:1700:C960:2270:A157:7BF:DF02:2DDA (talk) 01:44, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. - FlightTime (open channel) 01:53, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

So, "and was removed from life support the the following day on August 12" being put in the article based on only ONE news outlet is allowed, but requesting that it be removed *until* more than one outlet reports it needs to have a consensus? I thought it was Wikipedia policy/guideline that any information placed in an article had to have more than one reference attached in order for the information to be valid/credible? I mean, no other news outlet, other than the Los Angeles Times, is reporting that Heche has been taken off life support. Or, should I need to quote you Wikipedia policy stating that more than one reference needs to be used for any information that is to be placed in an article? 2600:1700:C960:2270:A157:7BF:DF02:2DDA (talk) 02:31, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done So, apparently, another editor went through & removed was what the incorrect half of the sentence in question. In fact, I read an AP article late last night that stated that Heche's family has been told she'll be taken off life support as early as today (Saturday) or as late as Tuesday, depending on how long the process takes of evaluating which of her organs are viable enough for donation & if a match can be found for any of her organs deemed viable enough. 2600:1700:C960:2270:A157:7BF:DF02:2DDA (talk) 11:31, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2022 (3)

Need to add that Anne Heche won National Board of Review Film award best supporting actress for Wag the Dog/Donnie Brasco 2603:8000:CA00:15C8:55BF:89A0:9630:D6D5 (talk) 18:58, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 August 2022 (2)

Add James Tupper as partner as they dated almost ten years and share a child. 2601:151:C304:A8B1:7861:819:444B:11B8 (talk) 12:11, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done - He's now in the infobox. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:46, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Number of deceased siblings incorrect

Anne Heche did not have 4 deceased siblings. The number should be 3. 2601:200:4500:ADB:1C46:A94A:4CFD:15A1 (talk) 17:36, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

It's confusingly written; Anne is supposed to count as one of the four. The wording could be improved. Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:43, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

I have changed it and it should hopefully be more clear now. In that same paragraph, I changed "Heche" to "Anne" as it is referring to the whole family, and thus "Heche" can be confusing. DaniloDaysOfOurLives (talk) 17:55, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Unseemely Haste to Declare her dead - Editing Wikipedia is not a contest

Is it just me or does anyone else wonder why some people are in such a rush to edit this page to report Anne Heche's death?

Editing Wikipedia is not a contest and there are no prizes for being 1st to add/update information in an article. I suspect some people just love to have the bragging rights for being 1st but such ego-centric editing seems very unseemly to me! There would be no harm in just leaving the page alone for a day or so, until there is more certainty about the facts. 95.150.59.155 (talk) 22:21, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Any idiot anywhere can edit a Wikipedia article. What's desired is that accurate information appear before inaccurate information, and that's a legitimate concern. —Danorton (talk) 22:37, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

She is indisputably dead now so any further discussion of this is a waste of time. Many editors like to work on breaking news including the deaths of celebrities. As long as those editors base their work on summarizing actually reliable sources, there is nothing wrong with it, because it improves the encyclopedia. Cullen328 (talk) 00:24, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

She is not indisputably dead. She is brain dead, but her heart is still pumping. Every article I found - even ones who say she is dead - all say the same thing. Apple4ever (talk) 02:54, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

But brain dead is legally dead, no? Her heart is still pumping because they're looking to see what organs can be donated. Calling her alive feels like a technicality when the thing that made Anne Heche Anne Heche - the brain - is dead. 69.119.69.199 (talk) 04:56, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Hm, you don't think that the physical body is also Anne Heche? Seems that calling her "dead" is also a technicality. Perhaps we should wait for Rigor Mortis? Chaheel Riens (talk) 20:52, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Untitled

Regarding her being near-death, the article states that "she was in a coma in extremely critical condition." Critical condition is an absolute. One cannot be extremely critical any more than one can be extremely pregnant or extremely dead. Total article is locked for editing, but this correction should be made ("she was in a coma in critical condition"). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sgw1009 (talk • contribs) 02:01, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done Nythar^T.C 00:58, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Brain dead?

I am curious whether there is anything in the MOS or otherwise that deals with determination of death status? By most modern definitions brain death is considered equivalent to "death", but obviously if she's on ventilation her body is still "alive". Do we just wait until sources explicitly say "Anne Heche dies" or do we extrapolate that because sources now say she is brain dead that she's now considered "dead"? — Crumpled Fire • contribs • 16:55, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Her family is reporting a severe anoxic brain injury and that she is "not expected to survive". As a matter of WP:BLP policy, we cannot say that she is dead until that is confirmed by reliable sources. Extrapolation would be Original research, which is not permitted. Cullen328 (talk) 17:04, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I refer you to the related Wikipedia article, which applies in the United States, where Heche was being treated: Uniform Determination of Death Act. —Danorton (talk) 18:35, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

@Danorton The Uniform Determination is model legislation which must be passed by the respective states to be in force. California has implemented it but not all states have. That said, all 50 use some form of brain death as a definition. Further, the model act is undergoing revision this year per: . The field has evolved over the past 40 years. Blainster (talk) 01:25, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2022 (2)

edit needed: 'from homosexuality' change 'from homosexuality' to 'AIDs likely due to homosexual activity' homosexuality is a not a terminal illness! Linguistics72 (talk) 23:15, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

that is not in the article. perhaps it was vandalism. Rmhermen (talk) 23:33, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

You're referring to the " three months after the death of his father" quote, right? That's a direct quote in the Nancy Heche interview. I've listened to it a few times to clarify, and that's what she said in the interview. Anyone else have any opinions? $chnauzer 23:39, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Given this is a bio of Anne, Nancy's homophobic rant reads as WP:UNDUE. I would strike the whole paragraph, then up where we have Anne claiming it was suicide, add "though their mother Nancy disputes this" or similar. GreatCaesarsGhost 23:52, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

No objections to that option. $chnauzer 00:02, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

The fact that Nancy Heche is homophobic is neither here nor there. It needs to be once again noted that Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED for offensive content, nor statements that are disrespectful toward the subject of the article as long as they are relevant and newsworthy. That said, there is an entire article on Nancy Heche, and the material on Anne's mother does take up WP:UNDUEWEIGHT in the section about her family. Peter G Werner (talk) 00:16, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

What I meant is that I have no trouble getting rid of the quote. I'll do it myself in a bit.$chnauzer 00:42, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

So let it be written. So let it be done. I've revised the section to get rid of the objectional quote. Believe me, I also object to Nancy Heche's statement.$chnauzer 00:48, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

 Already done Jack Frost (talk) 12:09, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Damage suffered by home occupant

There's an ongoing statement that I think is very one-sided:

The tenant of the house sustained minor injuries[3]

I've added the following:

but said that she and her pets were almost killed, and that she had lost all of her personal property to the fire.[4]

The latter has been removed twice, in my opinion, wrongfully.

Stating that the tenant "sustained minor injuries" while excluding any mention of the extensive damage that this person suffered comes across to me as very one-sided, actually dismissive. If you want to make a case that the condition of the occupant isn't relative to the article at all, I'm game. But keeping that in, but mentioning only the lack of injury and not the extensive property damage is excedingly one-sided and really goes against WP:NPOV. I am also game for shortening the second part of the sentence for brevity. Peter G Werner (talk) 05:22, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

OK, shortened it to:

The tenant of the house sustained minor injuries, but suffered extensive property loss.

I think in that form it's balanced without taking up undue weight. Peter G Werner (talk) 05:32, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

"Almost killed" was subjective from the tenant's perspective. We don't need to clutter a bio with details like that, unless someone creates a wiki called "The Death of Anne Heche" and can provide detailed information on how close said tenant AND her pets came to dying. Property damage certainly speaks to the severity of the crash (although "structurally compromised" just before the sentence should be self-explanatory), and I was wrong to remove that part. The current wording works and speaks to the collision. Wyliepedia @ 06:38, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

My intention with that sentence was NOT to be dismissive of the tenant's injuries, property loss, or near-loss of life. The sentence originally read, "The tenant was not injured," and that's it, with an outdated source that was written before the tenant pursued medical treatment for her injuries. I only amended it to state that she did, in fact, suffer injuries in the fire, and I added an updated source supporting that. The source specifically stated that she suffered "minor injuries," so I used their wording.

Please remember, in the future, to assume good intentions of other editors. Afddiary (talk) 11:27, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

I am assuming good faith, but the sentence as it was written comes across as one-sided and dismissive, regardless of intent. Anyway, I'm fine with either the version that seems to be stable now, or the shorter version I wrote. Seems like there's consensus now. Peter G Werner (talk) 22:07, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Death

Remove the last line `Life support was turned off on Aug 12' as numerous sources claim that life support is still being provided until such time as the organ procurement foundation can determine which organs are still viable and find recipients for them, expected to be sometime between Saturday Aug 13 and Tuesday Aug. 16

She passed away 190.167.72.164 (talk) 05:07, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Source? Keivan.f^Talk 05:10, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Youtube video indicating that she's being kept on life support after a car accident https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dkhfp19hq4 Skysong263 (talk) 06:18, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

At this point, and until there is verifiable information to the contrary, we must regard her as still alive, albeit with the aid of life support. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:EA01:1090:6D66:A8A3:E0B1:DFD4 (talk) 07:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

She's brain dead. So we might as well report her as dead. [[User:Rickyrab2|Rickyrab (2nd account)!]] | [[Talk:Rickyrab2| yada yada yada]] (old page: [[User:Rickyrab]]) (talk) 13:00, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

https://www.timeslive.co.za/sunday-times/lifestyle/2022-08-12-anne-heche-declared-brain-dead-will-be-taken-off-life-support-report/ [[User:Rickyrab2|Rickyrab (2nd account)!]] | [[Talk:Rickyrab2| yada yada yada]] (old page: [[User:Rickyrab]]) (talk) 13:03, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

She might be brain dead but she's not ‘legally dead’ and her body is still functioning.

Keivan.fTalk 14:05, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes her body is still functioning, but she HAS been declared Legally Dead.

If one is "brain dead" in California, they are dead... "(a) An individual who has sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem, is dead." posty (talk) 18:56, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

https://people.com/tv/anne-heche-dead/ posty (talk) 18:58, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

It’s strange to use a state legal definition of death rather than other, more appropriate definitions. Would Terri Schiavo be listed as deceased on Wikipedia while her body was still alive and the legal case regarding her life support was still pending? Of course not. This was a premature and incorrect move on the part of whoever made this edit. Why does the word “brain” precede the word “dead” in instances such as these? Because, medically, the person is not fully dead. Legal definitions are used to aide in resolving legal matters, not for encyclopedic entries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.88.250.233 (talk) 21:28, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree. Legal definitions are useful for the legal process, but for outside of that its standard to use when the heart stops, because that is when life processes start terminating. Apple4ever (talk) 18:47, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, we have used, and should continue to use the "know it when you see it" dead definition. Even if a vegetative state is there "It, uh, senses life. I mean, uh, it turns towards the sun. It's alive, isn't it?" 2600:1700:2BBA:2C10:F0FB:AFD6:5D84:A736 (talk) 02:22, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

forgot to put citation for quote

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073631/quotes/qt0259376 2600:1700:2BBA:2C10:F0FB:AFD6:5D84:A736 (talk) 02:23, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

EW article has both 11th Augusgt AND 12th August listed as date of death https://ew.com/celebrity/anne-heche-cause-death-smoke-inhalation-thermal-injuries/?utm_campaign=entertainmentweekly_entertainmentweekly&utm_content=new&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_term=62fd848d6c26260001920f13

References

Immaterial, we have access to the coroner report itself which has the specified date. Rusted AutoParts 02:18, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Date of Death: August 11 or 12? Declared brain dead the 11th, "removed from life support" the 12th

The LA Times is now officially reporting the following today (Aug. 12 local time):

Heche was removed from life support after being hospitalized after crashing her car into a Mar Vista home, which then caught on fire. After the Aug. 5 crash, Heche was rushed to a Los Angeles hospital in critical condition. She was declared brain dead Thursday night but was kept on life support for possible organ donation.

The current consensus seems to be to go by her date of brain death (confirmed to be Aug. 11), as it is legally the definition of death in the state of California, where she died. But if we want to go by the date the life support was disconnected, it would be August 12. — Crumpled Fire • contribs • 21:42, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Let's stick to sources. According to The Guardian: "On Friday, her family said in a statement that she was not expected to survive and that she was being kept on life support to determine if her organs could be donated." So at that time, she was not dead yet. Le Parisien explicitly says that she died on Friday. — Vincent Lefèvre (talk) 21:49, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Moreover, as already shown in previous discussions, Thursday night can mean in the night from Thursday to Friday. So this is not an accurate information. — Vincent Lefèvre (talk) 21:53, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

The Guardian is using British Summer Time as their measure, as Heche's family made that statement on Thursday in accordance with California's time zone. Le Parisien's statement may also be referring to the time in France, not the USA. We should prioritize U.S. sources or at least sources that explicitly clarify which time zone they are utilizing when making a statement.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 21:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

The LA Times is still inaccurate: this article says:

“She was declared brain dead last night but has been kept on life support for organ donation,” her representative, Holly Baird, said Friday in an email to the Los Angeles Times.

By "last night", one does not know whether this is before or after midnight. — Vincent Lefèvre (talk) 22:10, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Sources refer to the brain death as occurring "Thursday night" explicitly.[5], [6], [7]. If it occurred after midnight, that would be referred to as Friday morning, or "early Friday morning", at least in American English. It may be differently interpreted in your location's variety of English, but this article uses U.S. English.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 22:19, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Again, "Thursday night" can mean the night from Thursday to Friday. Thus it could be Friday. This has been seen several times before. See for instance Talk:Yvette Mimieux#Date of Death, where "Monday night" was Tuesday early in the morning. — Vincent Lefèvre (talk) 22:27, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I happen to disagree that, in American English at least, "Thursday night" could ever be interpreted as any time past midnight on Friday; that would be referred to as "overnight Thursday" at the very least, but probably "early Friday morning", or "after midnight Friday". Nevertheless, I am getting a little carried away and I digress, I actually think we should use August 12 anyway since that was the date her life support was pulled.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 22:39, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I think we should go with the date she was removed from life support. The whole argument to why we should not regard her as dead was that she was on life support so it would be strange if we afterwards goes on the date when she was brain dead when we did not declared her as dead until they turned off the machines.DrKilleMoff (talk) 22:23, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree with using the date she was removed from life support.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 22:40, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Any editor's personal interpretation of the time of death is inappropriate original research. (See WP:NOR). What matters is the consistent reporting of the secondary sources and the consistent underlying primary source that they reference. Nowhere did any RS report the family saying before August 12 that Heche was dead, without also qualifying that she was brain dead. The question of "brain dead" meaning "dead" is not up to editors. It wasn't until August 12 that reliable sources (e.g. LA Times) reported that Heche was dead, without further qualification. They included a quotation released on August 12 from a family member as their primary source. —Danorton (talk) 22:32, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Agree with using the date she was removed from life support, August 12.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 22:40, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I also concur that the date of death should be when she was removed from life support. Unless the death certificate shows the 11th...or her tombstone reads the 11th, her date of death is when removed from life support. Not a "legal definition" of death by a state. DonaldD23 talk to me 22:50, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

@Danorton, @Danorton I would argue the WP:OR is claiming some other definition than what is used by the medicolegal authorities in that state as explained in RS. Determining someone is dead is, strictly speaking, a medicolegal determination (c.f., insanity). We can wait for the death certificate (a legal document) to determine the exact date. But to suggest that the editor-determined thershold of removal from life support is somehow not OR, but using California's definition is, is incorrect. EvergreenFir (talk) 01:58, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

User talk:Donaldd23, I don't understand your reasoning. A person whose head has been cut off is indisputably dead, but they can be kept on a machine forever, blood pumping through their veins etc. They're certainly not alive. Their date of death is NOT when the machine is turned off, but when they meet the legal definition of death in their jurisdiction. Wikipedia editors do not get to decide for themselves when someone dies; in Heche's case, the California authorities said she died on 11 August. How can we possibly concoct some other death date? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:03, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a source showing that the California authorities clearly said she died on 11 August (with no possible interpretation issues on the date)? — Vincent Lefèvre (talk) 09:57, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

• The LA Times source quoted above has now been amended to remove any reference to her being taken off life support, so there is no longer any basis for the August 12 date. Her rep told Variety it could come as early as Saturday (today) or as late as Tuesday. [8] Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:36, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

  NYTimes has also not published an obit yet, and I suspect LATimes is also waiting until she is removed from life support/her heart stops beating to publish it (as noted above they are careful in their wording). AP seems hesistant to publish a death story as well, and only goes as far as describing her as "brain dead" (which is 'legal death' in California) [9] as recently as today. I'm sure the death certificate will eventually get released in the future, which likely list be the date her heart stops beating/removal from life support. Connormah (talk) 20:10, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't understand. She hasn't been taken off life support all of a sudden? DrKilleMoff (talk) 20:20, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Correct. Those reports were inaccurate. Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:28, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

About the "legally dead" point, the LA Times now says: "As of Friday, Heche was legally dead". — Vincent Lefèvre (talk) 23:09, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

The full statement from LA Times is "As of Friday, Heche was legally dead, but her heart was still beating and her body was kept on life support to preserve viable organs for possible donation." The immediately preceding statement is "She was declared brain dead Thursday night." The second statement is simply elaborating to say that as of Friday her heart was still beating despite having been declared legally dead (which was Thursday night since that's when she was declared brain dead). I still don't see any confirmation that she was declared brain dead on Friday.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 03:56, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree that this is still unclear, but IMHO, "As of Friday" probably means that the status was unclear on Thursday, and the journalists don't know when during the night she was declared brain dead. And "legally dead" may be a deduction from the brain dead status, but this doesn't imply that everything has been done to declare her dead officially (in case there are additional checks to confirm the actual death). — Vincent Lefèvre (talk) 09:19, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes the brain death declaration date is still ambiguous, I agree. I don't think any of the sources even clarify whether there was a simple deduction/observation made from the brain dead status, or a separate official "declaration". I am still in support of using the date on which she is removed from life support, which is reportedly going to be today (Aug. 14), but seemingly hasn't taken place yet.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 21:28, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

NPR has published an obituary today: "Emmy Award-winning actor Anne Heche has died. Her family took her off life support in a Los Angeles hospital following a car crash that left her in a coma. She was 53." It seems that this was because life support was taken off that Anne Heche was considered dead. — Vincent Lefèvre (talk) 21:52, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

In Jonee Fonseca v. Karen Smith, part of the lawsuit was to have the date of death on the California death certificate changed from the date declared dead to the date the life support was withheld, and the body ceased to "survive" on its own. That was one of the arguments. P37307 (talk) 15:51, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

official d.o.d. now seems to be the 14th. Snarevox (talk) 17:21, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 August 2022

Every major news source I have seen indicates that Anne Heche was declared brain dead on Friday, August 12, NOT August 11. Her article should be updated to reflect this. MSL1995 (talk) 01:58, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

It looks like someone has already edited the date to the 12th as of this writing, but keep in mind this is a contested edit. See the plethora of discussion already on this page. You are free to join those discussions. The statement news sources are citing explicitly said "Thursday night" as the date of brain death. It was reported on Friday, but occurred Thursday night.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 03:11, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

The earliest reports of Heche being declared brain-dead, and by implication legally dead, are on the evening of Ausgust 11: https://deadline.com/2022/08/anne-heche-brain-dead-injury-taken-off-life-support-1235090375/ But August 12 is fine for a consensus figure until an official date comes to light. Peter G Werner (talk) 20:11, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Death date is incorrect if taken off life support on 15

Death date is incorrect if taken off life support on 15 2600:1700:F9F0:12E0:7918:A8B2:FDB:F5BC (talk) 02:52, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes. Brain dead is not the same as legally dead. News says she was taken off life support on Sunday, August 14 (see https://abc7chicago.com/anne-heche-life-support-brain-dead-car-crash/12126004/). MurrayGreshler (talk) 02:59, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

On the contrary, brain death is legal death in the state of California, where she died. This has been pointed out over and over again in earlier discussions. Peter G Werner (talk) 04:43, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

According to The New York Times her brain dead occured on August 11 (NYT: ″The declaration of brain death had come Thursday night [August 11]″). This is confirmed by a statement from her son, published e. g. by CNN: ″My brother Atlas and I lost our Mom. After six days [August 5 → August 11] of almost unbelievable emotional swings, I am left with a deep, wordless sadness.″ Both The New York Times and The Washington Post placed her (legal) death on August 14, after life support shut-off on the same day (see NYT and WP). --Jamiri (talk) 15:09, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 August 2022 (2)

The date of death is not correct. It currently says she died on August 12th, 2022. She was taken off life support and died August 14th, 2022. 71.202.77.69 (talk) 04:37, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: Please see the above discussions about the date of death EvergreenFir (talk) 15:19, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Foolish to assume any editor here will respond properly to these comments. Whoever has locked the editing mechanism is apparently convinced he or she is right, regardless of the social, medical and historical precedent of determining time/date death by the cessation of heart function. Long live Wiki gatekeepers’ belief that they are the smartest people in the room. Bruce Kluger (talk) 18:20, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Taken off life support.

She passed away August 14 2022 after being taken of life support. 2601:440:C580:2600:BD50:D40C:202E:C828 (talk) 04:40, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

actual date of death

like probably everybody else, i heard she had died on the evening of friday august 12th...but now allofasudden, there are countless news outlets printing updates claiming she was removed from life support and passed away on sunday august 14th.

is every online newspaper wrong? or does a correction to her wiki need to be made.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/14/arts/anne-heche-dead.amp.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/obituaries/2022/08/14/actress-anne-heche-dead-crash/

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-actor-anne-heche-is-taken-off-life-support-dies-9-days-after-car-crash-2022-08-14/ Snarevox (talk) 17:20, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

@Snarevox: An ongoing discussion abut this is currently underway in the "death date" section of this talk page. In short, my understanding of the situation is this: she was declared brain dead, which meets the legal definition of death in California, on August 11 (or possibly 12, according to some sources), then was removed from life support on August 14, after arrangements were made for organ donation. It seems that earlier reports that she was taken off life support on August 12 were confusing them with reports that she had been declared brain dead, which very likely happened late on the evening of August 11.

More confusingly, the NYT pointedly did not run an obituary until they had full confirmation she was taken off life support, which was on August 14 (Sunday), and gave that as her date of death, but other sources still use the date of legal death (which was probably August 11 but some source still say August 12). So there's a real mess of contradicting dates, definitions, and information. Sunshineisles2 (talk) 17:25, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

I added a temporary note next to the date of death in the info box with this edit. Due to California's definition of death, conflicting media reports of Heche's declaration of death being made on August 11th or 12th, 2022, and date Heche was taken off life support on August 14, 2022, there is some confusion as to what her date of death really is until her official death certificate is made public. I think that should remain until the controversy is determined by official documentation. Thoughts? P37307 (talk) 17:53, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for adding a note, I'd definitely been considering adding something to that effect. Honestly, I wonder if it might be best to also change the death date to "August 2022" until further clarification can be reached, and having the note append that as an explainer. Sunshineisles2 (talk) 18:56, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I think it will be resolved soon as the death certificate will come out within 24 hours. I hate notes and adding them. I felt this was a unique situation. P37307 (talk) 19:09, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

The note is a really good idea. Thanks for adding that. Peter G Werner (talk) 19:59, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

thanks everyone...i wasnt really aware there was such intense discussion already taking place...im eager to learn the final decision as ive now become more aware of the "process" involved. Snarevox (talk) 20:52, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Change date of death to 8/14/22

See above 74.72.132.129 (talk) 18:10, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Foolish to assume any editor here will respond properly to these comments. Whoever has locked the editing mechanism is apparently convinced he or she is right, regardless of the social, medical and historical precedent of determining time/date death by the cessation of heart function. Long live Wiki gatekeepers’ belief that they are the smartest people in the room. Bruce Kluger (talk) 18:23, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

@Bruce Kluger, the controversy will be resolved soon when Heche's death certificate is released and then we will have a definitive answer going forward. P37307 (talk) 18:35, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

With all due respect, this is nonsense. Did you require George Washington's death certificate in order to publish here that he died on 12/14/1799? Do you require death certificates for all dead people on Wikipedia? My own mother was declared brain dead on July 22, 2019, but it wasn't until she was removed from life support and her heart stopped beating that she was officially declared dead on 7/25/19. Major newspapers around the country have reported that Anne Heche died on 8/14/22, and those papers have higher standards of fact-check than Wikipedia. By leaving Heche's death as 8/12/22, rather than erring on the side of accuracy, you appear to just be digging in your heels -- like so many Wiki editors before you -- out of an insistence of being right. It's not professional. Bruce Kluger (talk) 19:12, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Actually, I didn't oppose it being changed. If the 'change the date' crowd would respond to the actual section regarding the dates, instead of starting new sections over and over again maybe a consensus could be made. The discussions about the 14th just started. There isn't an err made yet as no one, as far as I can see, changed it to the 14th. Change it to the 14th if you want. You won't see me revert. But the death certificate date will be the final authority, imo. The reporting on this from day one when she was reported dead by family and reps to the media then it was just declared dead, has been all over the place, plus California law complicating it. Also, you don't have to be obtuse with me and sorry about your mother. P37307 (talk) 19:29, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

" If the 'change the date' crowd would respond to the actual section regarding the dates, instead of starting new sections over and over again maybe a consensus could be made." This point exactly - if you want to change the consensus engage in existing discussion rather than clearly ignoring it and making demands anew. Peter G Werner (talk) 20:15, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

It's clear that there's not even going to be a complete conversation on how to move forward with the death date until a death certificate is completed which gives the date brain death was declared. In light of this, I've taken the step to remove the date altogether until we can have some kind of consensus here. Until then, even the arguments over which date to use are frankly premature, because even if one wanted to use the date of legal death instead of life support being pulled, the date that happened isn't even clear. Upon further inspection, it does seem like two specific sets of arguments here exist, legal death and biological death, so I think debate on that can begin at least in the abstract even without a death certificate. Sunshineisles2 (talk) 20:47, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Looks like Wikipedia editors aren't the only ones divided on this topic: https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2022-08-15/anne-heche-death-media-coverage-obituary Peter G Werner (talk) 01:19, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Heche

The lede gives "/heɪtʃ/", however, I've always heard "/heɪʃ/", and here's a recent interview where Anne Heche herself pronounces it that way (at 6 seconds): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez7LbIAwoco. This probably should be corrected. Peter G Werner (talk) 03:31, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

OK, I see the editor who made this change gave this source for pronunciation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5J9Dx3-Sdo&t=29s. Since Anne Heche is on record as pronouncing it both ways, it would be best if both pronunciations are given. I'm going to edit this accordingly. Peter G Werner (talk) 04:19, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

I see (hear) the example of /heɪtʃ/ in the video, but I don’t see an authoritative example of /heɪʃ/. Did I miss something? —Danorton (talk) 23:09, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I think it’s erroneous to take the pronunciation in the first video as /heɪʃ/. IMHO, she’s rushing, slurring, and generally not enunciating clearly. In the only example where she clearly enunciates, it’s clearly and unambiguously /heɪtʃ/.

I believe your edit is erroneous. —Danorton (talk) 23:21, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right. In the Brief Take interview she speeds through her name so fast that it could actually be heard either way. But I've found two more sources, a 2016 Larry King interview as well as the first episode of her recent podcast, where she clearly says that it's pronounced /heɪtʃ/:

• http://www.ora.tv/larrykingnow/2017/3/8/anne-heche-on-motherhood-johnny-depp-and-catfights (at 1:40)
• https://www.strawhutmedia.com/bettertogether/anne-heches-better-together-coming-soon

I'll change the lede and give additional cites. Peter G Werner (talk) 19:03, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

As a mnemonic, if you’re familiar with the Irish-English dialect, it’s how the Irish pronounce the letter “H”. —Danorton (talk) 20:37, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I definitely picked up on the double-meaning of that pronunciation. Peter G Werner (talk) 00:02, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

I didn't see any new news report from US TV where it's pronounced with a "t" - I always hear "heɪʃ". You'll find multiple sources on YT - including CNN. NSX-Racer (talk) 09:38, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the Washington Post obituary is saying it's pronounced "HAYSH": https://www.washingtonpost.com/obituaries/2022/08/14/actress-anne-heche-dead-crash/ (And from my digging, the origin of the name is from the Swiss-French "Hêche", pronounced /ɛːʃ/.) But I think the final word on how it's pronounced would be how she pronounces it, and she's quite clear in several sources that she pronounces it "/heɪtʃ/". Peter G Werner (talk) 04:36, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Correction

He car was a mini clubman not a Mini Cooper as evidenced by the double rear doors 108.55.13.126 (talk) 13:30, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

car model has been updated to reflect that it is the double rear doored Clubman model. --Funandtrvl (talk) 21:16, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Why isn't the tenant named

Still trying to learn all of the Wikipedia rules governing potential edits I make. I am curious why the tenant isn't named. Is there a Wikipedia rule that victims aren't supposed to be named even if their name is public knowledge? Article just says, "The tenant of the house". Stainless Steel Rat (talk) 08:40, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Not a public figure and her identity isn't important to the subject of the article. The damages she suffered are important as part of the description of the damage caused by Heche's car crash, though. Peter G Werner (talk) 10:18, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

@Peter G Werner of course, once your name is published as part of a major news story, you _are_ a public figure. Happens every day. 😀 Blainster (talk) 14:10, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

@Peter G Werner It appears Wikipedia has a more specific definition of "public figure" than the literal one that I used Wp:PublicFigure. BLP also has guidance on privacy of peripheral figures such as the tenant Wp:BLPName. Blainster (talk) 14:44, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

StainlessSteelRat, please read through WP:BLPNAME. Caution should be applied when identifying individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. ... Consider whether the inclusion of names of living private individuals who are not directly involved in an article's topic adds significant value. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:42, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

As the editor who originally removed the tenant's name here I feel I should comment that my edit summary still stands ("not important to the article to name the tenant, unless they're notable in some other way unrelated to Heche") and that there has been no serious suggestion as to notability since. Apart from Famous for being famous there is still no valid reason to name the tenant any more than there is to name any of the firefighters who attended the accident. Chaheel Riens (talk) 15:45, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Los Angeles, California not linked per OVERLINK?

I have literally never heard of this policy before on any page. I'm pretty sure we link places of birth and death no matter what, you can see such a thing on other pages like Betty White... wizzito | say hello! 00:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

FYI I am referring to the fact that Los Angeles, California as the place of death in the infobox is unlinked w/ a note saying it's not linked per MOS:OVERLINK. wizzito | say hello! 00:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

As the person who inserted that note, I'm not aware of any policy that we always link places of birth and death. But running an overlink script usually deletes links to both Los Angeles and California, which strikes me as reasonable, and being more reticent in recent years of the fact that too many links can itself be a problem, I'd rather reduce redundant or unnecessary links wherever possible. Sunshineisles2 (talk) 05:07, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

I am with you @Wizzito, first time I had heard of OVERLINK but nice to keep learning about the project. I don't really think the rule was meant to apply to the infobox but only the main body of the article. However, I read the reference that @Sunshineisles2 provided and it definitely states that names of major cities should not be linked. I also read Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes and it makes no reference to links (although the example shows a link to a major city) but does clearly state we should be consistent in the format of infobox information. My opinion is that consistency is paramount here. If enough other bios have a place of death in Los Angeles and have a link to that in their infobox then we should link in this article as well. Stainless Steel Rat (talk) 08:33, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

@StainlessSteelRat: For the record, I tend to run the overlink script if I come across a page that I feel has an overlinking problem. Granted, my personal standard here might be more stringent than other editors, but I would disagree that a page needs a link to a particular article simply because it's linked on other articles.

Generally speaking, I don't think links to major cities in articles need to be linked in the infobox, at least, because the average reader is very likely to be conceptually familiar with the city and it's very rare for the exact configuration of the city to be significantly important to the reader's understanding of the article. The heart of an infobox's usage is to provide easily readable, concise information about the article's subject. Sunshineisles2 (talk) 14:06, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Sunshineisles2 I can understand not linking California, but I'm pretty sure we normally link the city/area of death no matter what. For example, Olivia Newton-John's article links the Santa Ynez Valley in the infobox, but does not link to California. wizzito | say hello! 23:17, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

StainlessSteelRat I'm aware of OVERLINK, this supposed rule to not link the place of death I am not. wizzito | say hello! 23:17, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Los Angeles is well known to English speakers worldwide. The Santa Ynez Valley, not so much. So, these are very different cases. Cullen328 (talk) 23:22, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough. wizzito | say hello! 23:35, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Archives

I notice people keep moving archived discussions from the last few days to Archive 2. Could you please use Archive 3 for recent discussions? I've organized it so Archive 1 runs from 2006-2010, Archive 2 is from 2011-2020, and Archive 3 is everything from 2021 onward, which actually begins with the recent events of the car crash. Organizing it that way makes both chronological sense and coincides with periods where there's been active discusion and where there's been periods of no discussion. At some point, it will make sense to archive everthing around recent events in Archive 3 and keep the current page for ongoing discussion. Peter G Werner (talk) 03:33, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Car crash and Death

Shouldn't the header for this section just be called "Death" at this point? CorbyBoog (talk) 02:02, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

No, the events around the car crash incident are worth including in their own right (and I think there is still some material that should be added) and would certainly be an important part of her biography had she lived. Peter G Werner (talk) 02:15, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

But she didn't live, and the events around the incident are, of course, described in the summary. When other notable people die, the header of the section describing their death just says "Death", unless you can provide meaningful examples to the contrary. CorbyBoog (talk) 21:04, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

It's inappropriate. River Pheonix's wikipedia page doesn't include a section that says "Overdose and Death" The events of her death should be described in the summary not the title of the section. CorbyBoog (talk) 03:19, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Jayne Mansfield, James Dean, Sam Kinison, Stevie Ray Vaughan, and Kobe Bryant all just say "Death" There may be a sub-header describing the accident, but it never says "Vehicular crash followed by Death" or in other words. CorbyBoog (talk) 18:53, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

OK, let's follow the precedent of James Dean#Death and just call the section "Death", and have subsections beneath that. I believe there's enough detail in the car accident itself and the events surrounding her demise and death in the hospital that subsections are justified. Peter G Werner (talk) 03:48, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Inclusion of items from TMZ?

This got lost in the seemingly endless discussion on the death date, but I wanted to get some idea on opinions on including material directly or indirectly sourced to TMZ, per WP:TMZ. There's already several statements that are sourced to either TMZ directly or to stories from other sites that themselves cite TMZ.

In addition, TMZ has been the main source for material around the series of car crashes precdeing the final crash. Specifically:

1) A video of Heche's just after the first collision, a minor collision with an apartment garage. The video shows someone demanding she get out of the vehicle, and she instead reverses the vehicle and leaves the scene of the accident. An accompanying photo shows this to in fact be Heche: https://www.tmz.com/2022/08/08/anne-heche-case-possible-dui-investigators-get-warrant-blood-sample/

2) A video of what appears to be Heche's car speeding through an allyway and narrowly missing a pedestrian. The story also reports a second hit and run with a Jaguar, though the driver of that vehicle was not injured: https://www.tmz.com/2022/08/08/anne-heche-new-video-fly-down-alley-before-hit-run/

It's worth noting that several other media sources are treating the above as authentic, albeit, specifically reporting the source as TMZ.

I'm inclined to include this material, albeit, in a properly condensed couple of sentences so as not to take up undue weight, and with "according to TMZ" prefacing it. Peter G Werner (talk) 05:26, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

@Peter G Werner: These all strike me as suitable for inclusion if given the relevant inline attribution to TMZ. Recommend using the language you used in your comment if you insert them yourself; it allows the reader to understand Wikipedia's policy of only tepidly including TMZ material. ~ Pbritti (talk) 06:30, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Official date of death confirmed

Anne Heche's official date of death has been confirmed by the LA County Medical Examiner-Coroner's Office and can be found here: https://mec.lacounty.gov/case-detail/?caseNumber=2022-08397. It's August 11, 2022. This should end the debate about when she officially died. Johndavies837 (talk) 22:00, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Case closed in my opinion. Since the coroner would also be doing up the death certificate, I don't see the need to wait for that specifically when the report is now available. Rusted AutoParts 22:34, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

You would think, except that there are sources such as the Washington Post who have a policy of only publishing obituaries once the heart has stopped beating, regardless of what California law says. There are still going to be a lot of August 14s out there. Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:39, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

But it's ultimately what the coroner or family announce as the date. This is pretty official, so as long as we retain the note beside the DOD the confusion should be cleared up. Rusted AutoParts 22:48, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

On the one hand, there are millions of cases where a person's heart has stopped beating but they later revived, so they were never dead to begin with. On the other hand, there are millions of cases where someone's brain has ceased to function but their heart is kept beating artificially. Heart stoppage per se is really a very outdated notion of determining whether life has ceased or not. The Washington Post et al should know that by now. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:56, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

As the official DOD is now confirmed, I have archived the earlier DOD discussion threads which were inconclusive and confusing. WWGB (talk) 04:43, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

@WWGB: The broad-stroke archiving of that material strikes me as fairly improper (though very obviously in good faith). Those discussions were still active, recent, and included an active survey with several respondents—including myself and others who leveled reasonable disagreements with using the 11 August date regardless of the coroner. I will retrieve the relevant discussions and reinsert them above this thread. Thanks. ~ Pbritti (talk) 06:20, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

I basically agree, albeit, I really, really didn't like the fact that discussion of the date of death was scattered over a half-dozen or more sections. I know people started new sections in good faith, not being aware that they should participate in the existing discussion, but the outcome was still kind of obnoxious. If discussion of the date of death is going to continue, let's at least try to get it one place this time. Peter G Werner (talk) 08:35, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Fully agree with Peter here. Unfortunately, this is fairly common on news item talk pages. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:32, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, how can people honestly disagree with the coroner? They are fundamentally one of very few who can directly announce a date of death, barring family. If people individually disagree with brain death being death, that is just not usable as a means of dispute. Her death has been declared as August 11 by the laws of the state she passed away in. There's no other means of casting doubt on that. Rusted AutoParts 17:15, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Death date

Okay, can we decide on what date the death is going to be put as? The amount of changes is giving me whiplash. We also need to ensure that she is listed on the correct date at Deaths in 2022 so this tug of warring between 11 and 12 is frustrating. Rusted AutoParts 03:54, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Throughout the day on the 12th I supported using August 12 because news sources made it seem like her life support had been disconnected on the 12th. But now that claim has apparently been retracted by the sources that had used it, and yet we still have most sources claiming Heche "is dead". So we know she's dead according to reliable sources, but we can no longer use the 12th as being the day of removal from life support, or entertain the claim that her date of death is being based on a removal from life support. She is still on life support as far as we know. So now our death date has to be based on the date of brain death, and by all accounts the sources say she was declared as such on "Thursday night". Yes it was reported on Friday, but it occurred Thursday in LA's local time. Some users are claiming that "Thursday night" is ambiguous and could mean "overnight", i.e. after midnight, but I disagree. In American English at least, if something is claimed to have happened after midnight, usually other phrases like "overnight Thursday", "after midnight Friday", or "early Friday morning" would be used.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 04:03, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

As I highlighted above, I don't think it's a coincidence that the usual ironclad reliable sources around here like AP, NYT, LATimes etc. have not yet published obituaries or stated she has died yet. Connormah (talk) 04:17, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps "Thursday night" means before midnight in correct American English, but the fact is that American journalists sometimes say that for something that has actually happened after midnight (thus actually meaning during the night, either before or after midnight), as this could be shown in past discussions on dates of death. IMHO, the date is still indeterminate, probably either the 11th or the 12th (concerning the legal death, a later date isn't even completely impossible, as I haven't seen a statement that there has been a death certificate or that the "brain dead" status has been acknowledged by the authorities). — Vincent Lefèvre (talk) 09:08, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Another point: Article 2 "Confirmation of Death" of California law says: "When an individual is pronounced dead by determining that the individual has sustained an irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem, there shall be independent confirmation by another physician." Has this confirmation by another physician been done? I cannot see any answer in the sources (which do not seem to go further than saying "brain dead"). — Vincent Lefèvre (talk) 13:07, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

We should decide and then block all the ghouls who pushed the false narrative that she was alive after such date. This is one of the all time Wikipedia cockups. 88.12.40.17 (talk) 13:44, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

For the record, the NYT published an obituary late on the evening of Sunday the 14th. In it, they give Heche's date of death as Sunday, and also state that "On Friday [the 12th], a representative said Ms. Heche had been declared brain-dead on Thursday night [the 11th]." I know the article currently says August 12 but it's clear that it's far from a consensus view among news outlets. For the record, I'd err on the side of just saying "August 2022" and adding a footnote explaining the confusion, and revisiting the matter if the death certificate is made available. --Sunshineisles2 (talk) 05:02, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, I think New York Times has nailed it. They waited until she was pulled from life support, they list her date of death as August 14, and they correctly identify that—as per known statements from her reps—she was declared brain dead on Thursday night, not Friday. It's true that other sources are claiming that she was declared brain dead Friday, but where are they getting that from? We know based on her rep's statement shared amongst outlets that it was said to occur Thursday night, it's just that it was reported on Friday. Methinks too many outlets aren't paying close enough attention in their write-ups.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 05:58, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Again, again, by saying "Thursday night", journalists may mean any time during the night (so it could be Friday), as it happened for Yvette Mimieux (it was said "Monday night", and it was later clarified that she died on Tuesday). — Vincent Lefèvre (talk) 09:10, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

@Vincent Lefèvre: I've seen you bring the Mimieux example up, but I really don't think that was anything more than a miscommunication/misunderstanding on the part of her spokesperson on when she actually died. I can't imagine a case where a news outlet would have full confirmation that someone died after midnight on a certain day and give the date as the evening of the day before. Sunshineisles2 (talk) 13:43, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

@Sunshineisles2: Yes, information came from the spokesperson, who had actually said "overnight Monday evening" (simplified to "Monday night" by some newspapers), but this is the general case, where information initially comes from the family or a spokesperson, and there are always inaccuracies that need to be taken into account. And in particular, the New York Times often says "XXXday night" with the meaning "during the night" (fr:Discussion:Décès en janvier 2022#Date exacte de la mort d'Yvette Mimieux). — Vincent Lefèvre (talk) 16:17, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

It's probably true that the details, whether at the statement or reporting level, may be obscured in some cases where the hour is unknown or is judged not to matter in terms of first announcing the news. (Regardless, I'm certain that if there was an article about, say, a burglary that happened at 3:00 a.m. on a given day, it would be referred to as "early [that] morning" instead of "late [the previous] night".)

But that's a bit of a digression. To the matter of figuring out how to precede with this current predicament, I'm confident erring on the side of "Thursday night" meaning August 11, particularly because of this NYT article, which makes clear differentiation between events of that Thursday, the 11th, and that Friday, the 12th. If it's decided that Heche's date of death on the article should be the date of her legal (brain) death, that's the date I would use going with the information currently available, in the absence of a final death certificate. However, I'm not certain that this is the determination that editors on the page agree to use, but that's a whole other can of worms. Sunshineisles2 (talk) 16:24, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

@Crumpled Fire: I'm inclined to agree. On matters when there's a dispute regarding death date or other detail, I tend to weigh the NYT slightly more heavily, because it seems like they do await official confirmation from direct sources authorized to speak on behalf of the deceased, and thus tend to not as frequently get caught up in the telephone game of media outlets using each other's stories to "confirm" facts that may turn out to be wrong.--Sunshineisles2 (talk) 13:47, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

I suggest the common definition of dead, not the legal - when her heart stops. Apple4ever (talk) 18:50, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

FYI, apparently she's still on life support, and is only being taken off of it sometime today (Sunday August 14). See here. Magitroopa (talk) 19:09, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Apple4ever, the heart stopping isn't the common definition of death, as the heart can be revived using a defibrillator or CPR. The common definition of dead is lack of all vital signs. Golden Matrix (talk) 12:17, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Not to be glib, insincere or shallow, I believe her heart still beats in another person, so, I'm not sure that is a common definition any longer. P37307 (talk) 16:28, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

She wasn't taken off life support (ie: Heart stopped) until Sunday August 14 That should be her DOD. DonaldD23 talk to me 19:54, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

CNN reports (about 2 PM PDT, Sunday, August 14)

"Heche has matched with an organ recipient and will be taken off life support on Sunday, a representative for her family told CNN."

Damn confusing, isn't it? I agree that when she is taken off the life support and her heart stops beating should be the DOD. If "Brain Death" is what is being used, it should be made absolutely clear either way so as to avoid EXACTLY this kind of confusion. Wikipedia is not a legal document, and it doesn't matter for this purpose whether or not California (or whatever venue for future occasions) legally defines BD as LEGALLY dead, as long as that information is given in the article. CFLeon (talk) 20:54, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

I believe there was originally a note added next to her date of death in the intro sentence about the legal death details, but it got lost/removed after all the sources began to report her dead on the 12th and were erroneously reporting that she had been removed from life support at that time. We could always re-add it. Once she finally is removed from life support, we'll need to decide whether to change the date again or not. Some reliable sources are still holding off on declaring her dead, presumably until her life support is removed.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 21:24, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Huh? The date of death should be what will be on the official death certificate, and that's determined by the law of the state of California, not some editor's subjective opinion that death is only when the heart stops. We don't have information yet as to whether the declared date of death will be August 11th or 12th, but based on California law, it won't be August 14th. Peter G Werner (talk) 22:03, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it should be the one on the official death certificate, but it is not absolutely clear that it will be the 11th or the 12th (any examples from similar past deaths?). BTW, NPR published an obituary today: "Emmy Award-winning actor Anne Heche has died. Her family took her off life support in a Los Angeles hospital following a car crash that left her in a coma. She was 53." It seems that this was because life support was taken off that Anne Heche was considered dead. Anyway, no death date is given. — Vincent Lefèvre (talk) 22:09, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

So, have we decided if we shall use the date she was declared brain dead or the date she was taken off life support? I mean, consensus before was that we should use the date she was taken off life support, which now is Sunday the 14th. Anyway, there are now different dates in the article and on Deaths in 2022 and we can't have it like that.DrKilleMoff (talk) 09:28, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

At present both here and Deaths in 2022 list the 12th. Really to me the only thing that would really cement in stone the DOD is her death certificate. At present, if California law is brain death is death entire than it should be the 12th. California law wouldn’t apply if she had died elsewhere but that’s where it stands. The 12th. Rusted AutoParts 09:43, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

That law is Uniform Determination of Death Act. From personal knowledge, I know the actual death certificate will have the date of the declaration of death and not the day she was removed but my personal knowledge is useless per wiki rules. I think there was a legal case, Jonee Fonseca v. Karen Smith, that addresses the date of the certificate issue. P37307 (talk) 09:55, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

now the "official" d.o.d. appears to be the 14th Snarevox (talk) 17:23, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

No, the official DOD is 11 August.[10] WWGB (talk) 06:05, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Survey request

Since there has been a rather extended debate about the date used in this article, I propose a survey that determines whether we use the current brain death date or the 14 August end of life support and vital functions. Please vote as you would on an AfD discussion or elsewhere. I'll lead off below and we could have this matter resolved in a week, at which point I ask any passing uninvolved admin or experienced editor to close the debate. I also ask the locking editor (Muboshgu) and patrolling extended confirmed editor (EvergreenFir) to chime in at their leisure and extend appreciation for their approach to this issue. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:44, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

• August 14 as the The Wall Street Journal, CNN, and The New York Times all concur on a Sunday death date, as has her family through statements after the fact. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:44, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

• No Preference but this has been a unique situation with California law since most people declared dead aren't famous, organs harvested in a timely manner, etc and now there is confusion about legal verse physical time of death, even amongst the media, her family and rep past statements, etc. At least this will be resolved in less than a week when the coroner releases the preliminary death certificate which could be hours from now, not days or a week, that will list her time and date of death. I added a temp note at the death date in the info box that explains the controversy earlier, hoping to stop the constant edits and reverts and explain this unique situation. Going forward, once her death certificate comes out, we will have an authority to refer back to if this unique situation occurs again. P37307 (talk) 19:05, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

• August 11 or 12, the best guess as to what will be reported on the legal death certificate. And Califronia law is clear that legal death occurs with brain death, not the date that extended life support is ended. Peter G Werner (talk) 20:06, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

@Peter G Werner: I appreciate your explanations elsewhere on this talk page. I was wondering if there was any chance you might have encountered your preference applied elsewhere on the Wiki? If so, we can link to that discussion. If not, your points still stand even if I disagree. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:52, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

According to LÁ Times and now Washington Post, newspapers are divided on this issue, so it’s hard to find clear guidelines. Also, apparently there were similar issues that came up when Tom Petty was on life support between his heart attack and being taken off life support. It’s worth looking at how WP editors dealt with that: Talk:Tom_Petty/Archive_2 Peter G Werner (talk) 01:48, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

• August 14. I was previously undecided on this but have moved in this direction as time has gone by. This was a fairly atypical situation in how it was reported in the media, and its involving of the the legal intricacies of one specific U.S. state. However, per Pbritti's observations, most major sources I've seen are moving toward giving August 14, the date life support was removed, as the date of death. We're not here to litigate our exact opinions on when life ends. But with reliable sources moving towards August 14 by the evidence I've seen, and strong evidence that this is the date that Heche's life support and remaining vital functions ceased, I think the strongest case, based on studying the available sources, supports it. Sunshineisles2 (talk) 21:00, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
• Leave as simply "August" for now. I think the current note existing in the article which has been placed after the death date of "August 2022" explains the lack of consensus in reliable sources between August 11, 12, or 14 perfectly for the time being, and the situation is not likely to change in that regard for at least some time. I would say that once (if ever) the death certificate becomes public, we may use that as a determining factor on which single date to use instead of making an arbitrary decision to prioritize one set of sources above another, or identify one type of death as being the so-called "real" death (plus—there is still uncertainty with the Aug. 11 vs. 12 for date of brain death).— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 06:39, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

  @Crumpled Fire clearly there is a range of Wikipedia editor opinions on when the death occurred, following the range of opinions in other media, that is, there is no consensus, which Wp needs to function. I agree with the decision to wait for release of the death certificate. My speculation is that we will see the county medical examiner-coroner report a date consistent with state law (date of brain death) which won't resolve the public debate, and possibly not the debate here either. It is interesting to see that the Uniform Laws Commission has recognized the ongoing confusion over the definition of death, which has not been resolved by the Uniform Determination of Death Act model legislation in effect since 1981. I have updated the article to indicate that the model act is under revision as of 2022, expected to take at least until 2023. Blainster (talk) 17:25, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

• August 11. It is the official date of death [11]. No other date has any legal status. WWGB (talk) 06:32, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
• August 11. It's ridiculous this is even still in dispute. Newspapers using other dates does not invalidate the official declaration of the literal medical examiner investigating her death, they no longer have any weight in the discussion. When this kind of confusion occurs, it's why we specifically wait for either a family/close representative statement or coroner report because none of the newspapers or news sites can be given 100% leeway. This has occurred in the wake of the deaths of the likes of Olivia de Havilland, Cloris Leachman, Jean-Marc Vallée and Yvette Mimieux. Once the family/rep/coroner weighs in, it's decided. So as per the coroner report, it has been declared as August 11. Rusted AutoParts 17:11, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

No need to be hostile, these responses (including mine) were made prior to the public release of the coroner's report.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 23:09, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Apologies if my tone comes across as such. Definitely not my intent. Rusted AutoParts 23:30, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

@Rusted AutoParts: Your multiple comments (including the one in the below conversation) suggest a lack of assuming good faith. If you wish to understand why editors would prefer to use a multiplicity of reliable sources rather than an individual state's definition, you may wish to refer to the above discussion or WP:Reliable sources. It's a wholly reasonable point of disagreement that was open to discussion. ~ Pbritti (talk) 05:39, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

I was absolutely not assuming any bad faith, again, if my tone was taken as such, apologies, but don't mistake confusion as being hostile or assuming bad faith. The point does stand however, this is the county coroner. They will be the one handling the death certificate. It would be a totally different situation if all we had to work off is the comments from her rep, or the interpretations of the newspapers reporting on her death. That's why I highlighted the four examples above, we can retain the note being placed beside her DOD to explain things given the splintered reporting. But when we have access to the coroner report, or the death certificate, I just can't see a means of not using the date stated in said documents. Rusted AutoParts 05:59, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Government sources aren't the end-all, be-all on Wikipedia and are certainly not "absolutes". As such, I am contented with the coroner date in the article with explanatory note. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:26, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 August 2022

Eldest son is Homer Laffoon.

Source: https://www.npr.org/2022/08/18/1118129347/anne-heche-coroner-report-accident?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews

Second son is Atlas Tupper.

Source: https://people.com/parents/anne-heche-kids-everything-to-know/ 174.101.230.16 (talk) 17:32, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

•  Not done Please see WP:BLPNAME. Heche's children are not public figures, and shouldn't be named for privacy reasons.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:42, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Homer Laffoon and Atlas Tupper have been named by multiple media sources well before Heche's accident, in Atlas's case, since birth: https://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/actors-anne-heche-james-tupper-new-baby-boy-atlas-article-1.371470. I see no reason not to mention their somewhere in the discussion of her family. In the article on Angelina Jolie, which has FA status, all of her children's names and even ages are given. I don't think it violates either their privacy or Wikipedia policy to name them in this article. Peter G Werner (talk) 19:15, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

How does the publication of their names benefit the reader? WWGB (talk) 03:10, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm just noting that it's the the norm to include the name of immediate family members in Wikipedia biographies, unless for some reason, those people's names have been kept out of the press. Not sure why this article should be any different. Peter G Werner (talk) 00:47, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

I disagree that it is the "norm". WP:BLPNAME guides us that "the presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons" and that the inclusion of such names is "subject to editorial discretion that such information is relevant to a reader's complete understanding of the subject". WWGB (talk) 04:33, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I 100% agree, given the precedent with other articles. However, I consider adding the names of her children to be of low importance, so I'll go with this edit protection, barring change in notability or importance of the individuals to the article. Peter G Werner (talk) 16:28, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Worth noting: Atlas Tupper makes his acting debut soon in one of Anne Heche's posthumous films: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm11303167/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t11. His status as a non-public figure might change at that point. I'll treat him as not a public figure for the time being, however. Peter G Werner (talk) 16:23, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

The lede needs work

Right now, other than dates of birth and death, the lede is simply a condensed filmography for Heche. My understanding is that the lede of an article is supposed to be basically a summary of the contents of the larger article, and there are aspects of her life worth summarizing other than her filmography. Her various obituraries in reliable sources like LA Times, New York Times, Washington Post, etc, would provide a good guide on which events and films to emphasize in a revised lede section. Peter G Werner (talk) 04:49, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Note: Do not archive this section until it's either been discussed or issue is resolved through editing. Peter G Werner (talk) 16:22, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Another note: I actually do plan on doing this at some point in the near future if nobody else takes up the task first, but wanted to square away the body of the article before rewriting the lede as a summary. Peter G Werner (talk) 06:54, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

OK, done! Unless there are further issues to add, we can archive this discussion soon.

Notes: I used a number of obituary sources (listed below) to get a rough consensus on which films and biographical details should be included in the summary. I did include an entire paragraph on several life events, including the Ellen DeGeneres relationsip, the Fresno incident, and the allegations in her book, because these are all prominently mentioned in her obits. Also included a one-sentence paragraph at the end about her accident and death.

I used the following sources:

• Liebenson, Donald (2022-08-12). "Anne Heche Dies at 53". Vanity Fair. Retrieved 2022-08-27.

• Shoard, Catherine (2022-08-12). "Actor Anne Heche dies a week after car crash". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 2022-08-27.

• Carras, Christi; Del Rosario, Alexandra (2022-08-12). "Anne Heche, TV, film and stage actor, dies at 53 from injuries in L.A. car crash". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 2022-08-27. archived

• Chang, Justin (2022-08-13). "Appreciation: Anne Heche was an extraordinary actor. The movies never really figured her out". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 2022-08-27. archived

• Murphy, Brian (2022-08-14). "Anne Heche, wide-ranging actress, dies at 53 after car crash". Washington Post. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2022-08-27. archived

• Associated Press (2022-08-15). "Anne Heche dies of crash injuries after life support removed". Associated Press. Retrieved 2022-08-27.

• Sandomir, Richard (2022-08-15). "Anne Heche, Actress Known for '90s Film Roles, Dies at 53". New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2022-08-27. archived

I used the sources collectively to get some idea on what a 'consensus' short bio would be and which facts to emphasize. If I'm not mistaken, the convention is to not give cites in the lede, unless something is disputed. Everything in the lede should be present and cited in the article. Peter G Werner (talk) 03:23, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

The Heche family

This is a bit of a complicated topic, because there's already quite a bit in this article about other members of her family of origin, two of whom are still living and are subject to the rules of WP:BLP. I don't want to give WP:UNDUEWEIGHT to her family members, though "Call Me Crazy" is about her family background, and so the topic is unavoidable.

Fist off, there's the question of notability - Nancy Heche is a notable figure for her high-profile Christian right activism, albeit, most of the material on her belongs in her own article, and her relationship with Anne Heche is the only topic of interest here. One thing that seems to be off in many of the unsourced claims about Nancy Heche is the idea that she was an almost lifelong anti-gay activist. According to Nancy's book and to external sources I can find, that only goes back to 2005, though her deeply religious anti-gay beliefs, of course, are long-standing. (A 2021 YouTube interview with Nancy Heche shows those views to still be current.)

Her now-deceased sister Susan Bergman would be the other notable figure, and seems to have achieved a moderate degree of notability as a novelist and poet during the 1990s. In fact, I think the only reason she isn't the subject of a short article herself is due to Wikipedia's tendency toward WP:RECENTISM. Susan was the first to write a memoir about the family in 1994, and it even got some attention in media like This American Life before Anne was particularly well-known. The other surviving family member is Abigail Heche, who's both living and non-notable, though she's on record of being critical of Anne Heche's allegations of sexual abuse.

The history family estrangement is a touchy topic. According to the sources I've read, that really only starts with the publication of her book in 2001, and alienated her mother and two surviving sisters, including Susan Bergman, who's memoir was also critical of their father, but without allegations of sexual abuse. This was all *after* the relationship with Ellen DeGeneres ended. There are photos of Anne Heche with her mother and surviving sister as late as 2013, albeit from Nancy's Instagram (though republished by several celebrity-oriented news sources). Obviously, that's not high on the WP:RELIABLE category. However, I'm still a bit uncomfortable with the statement "In 2011, Anne Heche told The Daily Telegraph that she doubted she would be able to repair her relationship with her mother" as not reflective of the relationship with her mother at the time of her death, and I'd just as soon not keep that particular sentence unless a case can be made for its importance, or if there's more current information from a reliable source.

It's also worth noting that there are no less than *three* memoirs about the Heche family drama, all of which, at least in part, concern treatment by their father, Donald Heche. I'd prioritize Anne's book ("Call Me Crazy") and her various interviews in discussing Anne Heche herself, while noting that she does contradict herself or change details on some topics over time. However, I consider all three (including Susan's Anonymity and Nancy's The Truth Comes Out) equally valid points of view on their father and other deceased family members, and, without denegrating non-autobiographical sources, would tend to prioritize Susan and Nancy's memoirs for facts about their own lives. Also, on the topic of non-autobiographical sources, Ellen DeGeneres has her own memoir and has a bit to say about Anne Heche - that's another possible source, though be weighted with due caution. Peter G Werner (talk) 21:49, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

ADDENDUM: I forgot to mention, I unlinked conversion therapy from the statement on "overcoming homosexuality". Reasons: yes, she's an advocate for the ex-gay movement and yes, she's a kind of therapist (more specifically, a pastoral counselor), but I think when you're talking about a contentions term like "conversion therapist" in a WP:BLP, then you damned well better have reliable-source evidence that her practice actually includes conversion therapy. I have no problem with this being pointed out if it's properly sourced. Albeit, all of this is probably material for the Nancy Heche article rather than this one. Peter G Werner (talk) 22:40, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Final resting place

Is E! Online a good source? If so, this should be added: https://www.eonline.com/news/1343025/details-on-anne-heches-final-resting-place-revealed Peter G Werner (talk) 02:01, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Since I've gotten no feedback on this, I'm going to go with this assessment that E! is generally reliable, and I'm going to add it to the article: https://adfontesmedia.com/e-news-bias-and-reliability/

Feel free to revert if I'm wrong. Peter G Werner (talk) 03:48, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Since it's now been reported independently by AP, who have also reported that her remains are now interred, I've rewritten the sentence to treat it as a past event, and removed "according to E!". Since her remains were placed in a mausoleum, I used the word "interred" rather than "buried", since the latter implies being placed in the ground. I'm not trying to needlessly use a ten-dollar word here. Peter G Werner (talk) 17:41, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Dropped story by LA Magazine

In a very odd development, Los Angeles magazine posted and then immediately pulled an interview with Derek Warburton that essentially blamed her accident on a manic condition. The story has been archived: https://archive.ph/z6yEE

If the story has been withdrawn, it's probably not a reliable source, but I thought it was worth mentioning on the talk page. Peter G Werner (talk) 02:44, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

An article withdrawn by an RS should not be RS. And, BLP still applies for the recently deceased, especially regarding her mental health and cause of death. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:49, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, you're correct. Only if that story comes out again through reliable sources, preferably several, is it worth adding to the article. Peter G Werner (talk) 04:01, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Removed language about "Amish community" and "cult"

I removed the following statements, as they were based on secondary sources, and seem to be based on inaccurate readings of Nancy and Anne Heche's memoirs:

Heche's family moved eleven times during her childhood; at certain points, they lived in an Amish community and was even raised in a cult.

First, Call Me Crazy says nothing about being "raised in a cult", even though it alleges a great deal of abuse, some of which can be described as religious abuse. The memoirs of both Nancy Heche and Susan Bergman clarify that they were living in the Amish country of Ohio, not with the Amish per se, and that they belonged to their own fundamentalist Baptist church that had nothing to do with the Amish or any other Menonite group:

After Cynthia died, we moved out to the country where the Amish people lived, and three years later, in April of 1965, Nathan was born. The pastor of the small breakaway church and my father had agreed to purchase forty acres together, on which they would build their families’ houses away from the lure of the world. They had located a site on top of a hill on which there was a clearing in the middle of a woodland parcel. First came Nathan, then Abigail, then Anne. (Susan Bergman Anonymity, p. 66)

Don and I bought 40 wooded acres of land outside the city and, along with five other families, built homes in a compound-like setting to keep us out of the world and to keep the world out of us. I didn’t read a newspaper or watch television or listen to the radio for nearly 10 years. Don’t ask me about Top 40 songs or news events in the late 1960s or early 1970s. I never heard them. (Nancy Heche The Truth Comes Out, p. 85)

It was the summer of 1971. Don sold our unpainted, uncarpeted, unheated home that we had never finished building and maneuvered our family out of the Amish community of Burton, Ohio, into the sophisticated neighborhood of Cleveland Heights. (Nancy Heche The Truth Comes Out, p. 88)

OK, one could kind of describe that as being among the "Amish community" and could definitely describe it as a "cult". The problem as that applies to Anne's bio - they moved out of that situation when Anne was about 2 years old. Peter G Werner (talk) 07:48, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Further note on the two sources listed in the edit that I reverted, since there seems to be a dispute here:

The CBN article gives a very brief and somewhat misleading summary of a fact from Nancy Heche's memoir:

The Heche family became involved in a fundamentalist Christian church and decided to move to an Amish community, where they lived during the late 1960’s and early ’70s.

I consider the memoir itself, supplimented by a similar statement Susan Bergman's memoir, to be more accurate. However, this fact applies to Nancy Heche's biography (and maybe Susan Bergman's), not Anne's. Somewhere where you lived until 2 years of age does not really count as a situation in which you were "raised".

The second cite is by Onur Tukel, director of Catfight (2017):

I could recount the tragedies and dramas that have plagued her life but you can learn that on your own. She wrote a memoir about it. And certainly, you’ve heard the stories: how her father sexually abused her and later succumbed to AIDS, how she was raised in a cult, how her brother died by suicide, her exile from Hollywood, her strange ecstasy trip that landed her in a stranger’s home.

His statement about her early life he says that he gets from her memoir, Call Me Crazy. Only there is nothing about the Amish or a cult in Call Me Crazy, unless I've missed something. In fact, she specifically talks about the family moving from church to church as they moved around and about the unstable living situation Don Heche constantly placed them in. If two sources contradict, we should go with the more primary one, especially if the secondary source claims to get their facts from the primary one. Peter G Werner (talk) 17:42, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Update: I actually did find a source where Anne Heche herself uses the term "raised in a cult". It's from a podcast from November 2021: https://tradingsecrets.libsyn.com/draft (at 3:14). This statement requires some contextualization, though, because in her book (which she mentions at 2:58), she describes the family as changing churches and entire denominations several times through her childhood. So that's not belonging to a cult as it's commonly understood, since a "cult" would be a single group. What she means is that her family's fundamentalist beliefs were cultlike, even if her family couldn't be said to belong to a cult in the sense of a larger group. I'll try and incorporate this into the rest of the article. It's difficult where you have a situation of WP:CONFLICTINGSOURCES and you want to present the information without original WP:SYNTHESIS. Peter G Werner (talk) 17:26, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Finishing high school

In the "Early life" section, it says "Heche flew to New York City, auditioned, and was offered a job, but her mother insisted she finish high school first.", with a reference to the movie-yahoo-page. I read that article, but it says "The 16-year-old was flown to New York and offered a job, but she did not want to uproot her barely stabilized family again, so she opted to stay and finish high school." with no mention of the mother. In the next phrase though, there is a quote "Again I was told I couldn't go", with emphasis on the "Again". Is there a wrong reference maybe? In the second reference with the direct quote from Anne, there is almost word for word the phrase used before with the movie-yahoo-reference: "She was just 16 when she was offered a part in a daytime soap opera, but her mother insisted she complete high school." So maybe the yahoo-reference should be left out here since both times the DailyTelegraph-refernece is used. Quamboq (talk) 16:50, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm also not sure that the unsourced, archived Yahoo page is the best source, especially since there are more direct statements about this series of events in her memoir. The part about her leaving for New York immediately after high school graduation is recounted in her memoir, and it's backed by several journalistic sources as well. She's also quite specific that she never attended college, as her acting career precluded it. I can work in this section, using more sources and making sure anything stated in the article reflects existing citations. Peter G Werner (talk) 19:19, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

OK, changed the source to the appropriate passage in Call Me Crazy and changed the text to reflect it.

I'm also now noticing that the "Early life" section is way too reliant on direct quotes rather than paraphrasing. That's something that should be rewritten at some point. I'll do it if no one else gets around to it first. Peter G Werner (talk) 20:59, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

"Early life" section has now been rewritten with a greatly reduced use of direct quotes, and with greater consistency, both internally and with the source materials. Peter G Werner (talk) 14:56, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Psychotic break

Why is the incident at Campiz' house called a nervous breakdown in this article? That's not what a nervous breakdown is. It was a psychotic break and was clinically diagnosed as such. Twister87654 (talk) 06:30, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the source! I had not read the 2001 Advocate article closely, but I should have, because it's very informative. The other sources I had been reading didn't speficically use the term "psychotic break" and I wasn't going to use that term without a clinical diagnosis. Hence, I used the more vague "nervous breakdown".

Also, I use the quotes around "insane" for a reason and would like to continue doing so. It's her exact words, and I think with something so contentious as calling someone insane, I think that's important to specify. Peter G Werner (talk) 06:51, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Heche's ex-husband Laffoon said in legal docs that she refused to seek professional help for bizarre and delusional behavior he claimed she exhibited ... almost 7 years after her supposed recovery. Very upsetting in hindsight. Twister87654 (talk) 07:36, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

If you're going to add potentially contentious information to the article, it really does need to be cited, and only the information that's clearly given in the reference should be stated in the article. If there are places in the article where statements are vague (say "several years"), it's because the sources themselves only give partial information. We as Wikipedia editors cannot go beyond the information given by sources. Peter G Werner (talk) 15:11, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Family of origin

"Family of origin" is actually a very widespread term. It's specifically refers to one's childhood family, as opposed to the one that creates later in life through relationships and one's own children. Since that the first article secition really is about her family of origin and not later marriages or children, I think it's worth keeping to make that distinction. I'm open to other terminology, but I think the section title should refer to that context. Peter G Werner (talk) 03:59, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I have never heard that term before, but your explanation and a little Googling has educated me. WWGB (talk) 06:42, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

The more I look at this and similar sections in other biographies, the more I wonder why the article is structured the way that it is. Usually family of origin details are in the "Early Life" section, and there's some overlap in this article where there are several passages that could go in either place. Usually, later family events go in a "Personal life" or "Relationships" section. And what it seems to come down to is that her family was very vocal in their response to the allegations made in "Call Me Crazy" and in Nancy Heche's case, in opposition to Anne Heche's sexuality.

I think the first step would be to properly sort what content belongs in "Early Life" and what in "Family of origin". And "Family of origin" might become "Claims of sexual abuse", "Relationship with family of origin" (or "Relationship with parents and siblings") or something to that effect. Peter G Werner (talk) 11:18, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Also, further note on "Early life" vs "Family or origin" section. In my edits, I've moved the disputed claims about sexual abuse by her father and claims that her brother committed suicide to the "Family of origin" section. The latter section definitely needs cleanup. I do think some small amount of detail about Susan Bergman and Nancy Heche really are necessary, as these have direct bearing on Heche's claims about her childhood and later relationship with her family of origin. Peter G Werner (talk) 14:44, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Putting this back on the main talk page, since the argument I make in the top paragraph in this section seems to be in dispute. Peter G Werner (talk) 14:45, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

"actually a very widespread term" - it is, as of right now, used as a section heading in a total of six Wikipedia biography articles. Btm0942 (talk) 16:26, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

I really don't think that the presense of a term on Wikipedia is the only measure of the frequency of a term: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22family+of+origin%22. Peter G Werner (talk) 17:25, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

A google search without any context or comparison is meaningless. Btm0942 (talk) 09:29, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

dupe reference removal

@Mikeblas this diff both duplicate references are removed on autobiographies sub-section because they have no value. i quite dont understand reason for removing both of them. can you please elaborate reason for removing both of them. i come across atleast a duplicate reference on any given day. i will be alert in future. thank you. <_> jindam, vani (talk) 01:54, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Hello! I don't think there were any duplicate references here. In this edit I removed the invocation of two reference tags from the "Autobiographies" section at the end of the article. These references were defined earlier in the article. The "References" section, which also appears earlier in the article, contains a {{reflist}} template which emits all the references defined and their footnote links. But it also clears the list of references defined, so invoking these references after that template caused the page to render with errors for those two footnotes and automatically add itself to the Category:Pages with broken reference names category.

The reference invocations at this point in the article serve no purpose, and just generate an error so I removed them. Hope that helps! -- Mikeblas (talk) 12:35, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

hello Mikeblas thank you for detailed reason. i will keep in mind about invocation and placement of references. <_> jindam, vani (talk) 13:37, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

 learnt about reference error introduced by me <_> jindam, vani (talk) 13:38, 1 November 2022 (UTC)