Talk:Achilles

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Wiki Education assignment: College Composition II

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2024 and 11 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Heatherskittles (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Lindseybean28 (talk) 21:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Description

For several reasons, we shouldn't keep that Dares Phrygius content.

It's very late; we might as well include medieval descriptions.

We've no reason to think it epitomic; it deviates massively from Homer and classical versions of the Troy epic, excising gods and reducing the Trojan Horse to a gate motif.

Frazer's translation dignifies it; the actual Latin text 12–13 is curt, a series of keywords with no sentences or even verbs (the whole passage is like an ancient draft of a table of characteristics of Trojan and Greek characters - the author would have loved infoboxes) which even Cornil's plainer translation gussies up: "Achilles had a large chest, a charming mouth, large, powerful limbs and long manes of curly hair. He was gentle, fierce in battle and generous. He had a cheerful face and chestnut hair."

The happenstance of its survival doesn't require inclusion; as WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE says, "merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia".

By including it, however much we qualify it as later and falsely attributed, we give readers a false impression of its standing; why would Wikipedia include it if it wasn't authoritative?

Pinging @Piccco and @Becarefulbro, hopefully as a courtesy and not a nuisance. NebY (talk) 14:49, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@NebY, greeting. Honestly I don't see a big problem with adding that quote, given that we mention the late antique date of its writing. That description does not contradict Homer's description of Achilles as well. I leave the last word to Picco. Becarefulbro (talk) 19:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Hello NebY, thanks for the tag. As you could tell, I don't have a very strong opinion about this one. When I saw that Becarefulbro restored it, I didn't bother reverting, because personally I didn't mind the text being there, as long as it was properly described for what it is, instead of the previous misleading title "the accounts of Dares Phrygius" (if you hadn't commented about it, I wouldn't have paid attention myself). I also saw this source being used in other articles as well, so I was just neutral about it. If you really feel like it's not suitable to be there, I personally wouldn't insist, especially now that I added a couple more sentences and the section isn't just one sentence long. Piccco (talk) 19:10, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, the fact that it is "decidedly pro-Trojan" (as Theoi.com says) makes sense and indirectly confirms that it is a late Latin work and couldn't have been based on an earlier Greek original, since the Romans saw themselves descendants of the Trojans and liked to paint them in a positive light. So, the text centrainly diverges from the earlier Greek canon where Achilles came from. Piccco (talk) 19:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Language

Please specify in the introduction that Άχιλλεύς is Ancient Greek. In its current state, it implies that Άχιλλεύς is the modern form of Achilleus, which is false. The smooth breathing mark does not exist in Modern Greek and was dropped several decades ago. 2A02:C7C:2DCE:1F00:71F4:A283:16BC:6C70 (talk) 21:28, 1 November 2024 (UTC)