Talk:Achilles/Archives/2019/January

Ligyron, the original name of Achilles

According to Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 3.13.6) the original name of the Greek hero was Ligyron and Chiron called him Achilles.

ICE77 (talk) 07:44, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Was not Achilles a historical personality ? Any date or documents ? (Blake Peter (talk) 12:56, 14 June 2018 (UTC))

@Blake Peter: Achilles is almost certainly nothing more than a legendary figure. The Iliad, the earliest surviving source that mentions him, was probably written in around the eighth century BC; whereas the events it describes purportedly took place in the early twelfth century BC, around four or five hundred years earlier. We do have Mycenaean documents written in Linear B script that mention people named "Achilleus" (the original Greek name for Achilles), but these people are just ordinary scribes or civilians. There is no historical evidence to suggest that there was ever a real, historical warrior named Achilles who really did any of the things that the legendary Achilles is said to have done. Even if there was at some point a real, historical figure whose life later became the basis for the legend, the Achilles we know today is almost pure legend. The story of Achilles's heel, probably the best-known story involving Achilles today, is never mentioned in the Iliad or the Odyssey and is not even attested at all until the first century, over 1,000 years after Achilles is alleged to have lived. --Katolophyromai (talk) 14:44, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for that answer. very informative (Blake Peter (talk) 06:08, 15 June 2018 (UTC)) @Katolophyromai :@Katolophyromai:

Many modern scholars believe it is most likely he was was historic, almost certainly a warlord of the period who participated in the wars and raids around which the Iliad is written. Some attributes and events maybe exaggerations, amalgams with other figures or outright fiction as occurs with historic figures that have many dubious legends attached. If George Washington never chopped down a cherry tree it does not mean he did not exist. As far as the name it is not really an issue that goes to the historicity of the person, the names can be sobriquets a second name that is attached and becomes dominant.

Yes one can claim king David was "nothing more than a legendary figure as well" but it is very likely he was a real person who simply had a fair amount of fiction attached hundred of years later (the sling etc). We can in fact trace lots of major legendary accomplishments attached to one figure to early figures, showing these to be added fictions, but it does not mean the former did not exist.N34B2 (talk) 19:13, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Death and Iliad

Does anyone know if the Iliad mentions his death or if not, why not? I was reading https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Iliad_(Murray)/Book_XXIV and the last mention sounds like he's still alive, which is weird because I thought it covered everything.

Iliad mentions:

the epic narrative takes up events prophesied for the future, such as Achilles' imminent death and the fall of Troy, although the narrative ends before these events take place. However, as these events are prefigured and alluded to more and more vividly, when it reaches an end the poem has told a more or less complete tale of the Trojan War

So at some point in the Iliad it talks about the prophecy of his death but doesn't actually verify it?

Which work does actually talk about the prophecy coming true? The Odyssey maybe? ScratchMarshall (talk) 22:34, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

@ScratchMarshall: Achilles's actual death is not described in the Iliad because the Iliad does not actually cover the entire Trojan War; in fact, it primarily only covers a brief period lasting four days and two nights during the final year of the war. For one thing, the poem says almost nothing about the beginning of the war or anything that happened during the first ten years of it. Furthermore, the poem also ends long before the war does, and there many very famous episodes from the final part of the war, including the deaths of Penthesilea, Achilles, and Paris, the theft of the Palladium, the suicide of Ajax, the Trojan Horse, the burning of Troy, and the departure of the Greek ships, that are simply never mentioned at all. That is because the particular conflict between Achilles and Agamemnon that is the focus of the epic is naturally resolved with the return of Hector's body in the last book of the Iliad; everything that happened after that is simply outside the scope of the poem.

The story of the Trojan Horse is retold in flashback by the blind bard Demodocus in Book VIII of the Odyssey while Odysseus is in the court of King Alcinous. Odysseus also meets the ghost of Achilles in the Underworld during the famous nekyia scene in Book XI, in which Achilles tells him that he would rather be the lowest slave on earth than the prince of the dead he is in Hades. Even here, however, the famous story about Achilles being shot in the heel by Paris is never mentioned; that is a much later elaboration, first mentioned, I believe, by the geographer Strabo in the early first century AD and later expanded on by other writers. If you are looking for information about the last few months of the Trojan War, the death of Achilles, and the fall of Troy, I would recommend reading the Posthomerica, also known as the Fall of Troy, which was written in the late fourth century AD by Quintus Smyrnaeus to span the gap between the Iliad and the Odyssey. There were originally other, much older poems that filled this period as part of the Epic Cycle, but all those have been lost, except for a few brief fragments. --Katolophyromai (talk) 01:23, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

a better structuring of the article can be done (Blake Peter (talk) 15:49, 25 June 2018 (UTC))

There are several written epic length poems covering the Trojan war and Achilles. The Iliad is just a small part. they are attested in works that reference them, but are now lostN34B2 (talk) 19:16, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Etymology

Lots of us enjoy/engage in amateur etymological speculation, but in wikipedia I think we need to be very careful and especially when it comes to original research assertions. I think there is a problem with the following graph currently included in the article:

"Another etymology relates the name to a Proto-Indo-European compound *h₂eḱ-pṓds "sharp foot" which first gave an Illyrian *āk̂pediós, evolving through time into *ākhpdeós and then *akhiddeús. The shift from -dd- to -ll- is then ascribed to the passing of the name into Greek via a Pre-Greek source. The first root part *h₂eḱ- "sharp, pointed" also gave Greek ἀκή (akḗ "point, silence, healing"), ἀκμή (akmḗ "point, edge, zenith") and ὀξύς (oxús "sharp, pointed, keen, quick, clever"), whereas ἄχος stems from the root *h₂egʰ- "to be upset, afraid". The whole expression would be comparable to the Latin acupedius "swift of foot". Compare also the Latin word family of aciēs "sharp edge or point, battle line, battle, engagement", acus "needle, pin, bodkin", and acuō "to make pointed, sharpen, whet; to exercise; to arouse" (whence acute).[7] Some topical epitheta of Achilles in the Iliad point to this "swift-footedness", namely ποδάρκης δῖος Ἀχιλλεὺς (podárkēs dĩos Achilleús "swift-footed divine Achilles")[8] or, even more frequently, πόδας ὠκὺς Ἀχιλλεύς (pódas ōkús Achilleús "quick-footed Achilles").[9]"

There seems to be no group of expert secondary source support for these claims cited. the citations refer, to sections in the Iliad meaning, albeit I am sure good faith, apparently original research or improper citations. N34B2 (talk) 19:22, 14 January 2019 (UTC)