Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)/Archive 42

Compete term

In team sports like Football and Field Hockey for example not all the players or the entire roaster (ex 22 Players in a Football team) actually play in the Olympic competition and are on the bench. All 22 players receive medals if there team wins . What does the the term compete mean does it mean participate in the Olympics or actually play on the pitch particularly in team sports where not all the players get to play on the pitch.

WP:NOLYMPICS states for notability "Athletes from any sport are presumed notable if they have competed at the modern Olympic Games, including the Summer Olympics (since 1896) or the Winter Olympics (since 1924)".Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 17:27, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi Pharaoh. I take it to mean start an event, such as the 100m, or take part in an event, such as coming onto the field as a substitute during a game. Travelling reserves and non-starters are excluded. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 18:15, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

+1 to Lugnuts. That various sports and sporting organizations have their own idiosyncratic rules for handing out medals or engraving team trophies doesn't have a bearing on notability. Ravenswing 18:34, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I also agree with Lugnuts. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 18:36, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt response. The issue is articles are created for all the players in the Olympic or World Cup in a team sport there is a template in the article with all the players names and media covers all the players in the squad almost all books on Olympics and Olympic sites covers the entire team in a team sport as participants or competitors not just those who played on the pitch. They are called Olympians.

The issue came up here Anil Nandy is a player was actually on the field (on the bench) but does not play in the pitch as per this "The midfield-forward duo of Anil and Sunil Nandy took the field for the Indian National team against France in the 1948 Olympic Games." It is tough to find resources for 1948 players in a pre internet era and in a foreign language Bengali. It has been nominated for deletion . In a individual event if someone does not start and has no article that is okay. In a team sport they are on the field not on the pitch. Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 02:46, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Lugnuts is correct - in the context of association football notability, it means actually playing in a match. Being a squad member is insufficient to meet NFOOTBALL. GiantSnowman 09:33, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks all ,I agree with you that is the current consensus in Football.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 13:34, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Changing notability guidelines for Basketball players

I want to suggest that we change the notability guidelines of basketball players to align with those of football players. As such, any who has player in a Tier 1 level league as defined by FIBA would become notable. Right now the basketball criteria are US-centered and basically any player that has not played in NBA-related competitions are not notable. For example, Egyptian international player's Omar Hesham is being considered for deletion because he does not meet the guidelines. Basketball is much bigger than America and I think Wikipedia should reflect the sport as the international game it is. --H-Hurry (talk) 18:18, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

@H-Hurry: To quote Ravenswing above: I would be happy to vote to accept a set of notability criteria for any sport where the nominator has proven that 90-95%+ of athletes that meet them can satisfy the GNG. Without such evidence, I'll vote to reject. Does nearly every player at Tier I meet WP:GNG? Does the nominated player even meet WP:GNG? WP:NHOOPS is meant to meet GNG for nearly every athlete that meets the stated criteria (as does WP:NFOOTY mostly, but that is arguably the most popular sport in the world and basketball is definitely not at that level of coverage). Shoehorning in criteria to a guideline to make a player meet a guideline is not the way we operate here. Yosemiter (talk) 18:23, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

We'd also need some precise definition of what "Tier 1 level league" is. What leagues does it cover? When did these league exist? Nigej (talk) 18:30, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• @H-Hurry: WP:NHOOPS does not supersede the general notability guideline. All players have to pass WP:GNG, that is made abundantly clear in the FAQ on the top of WP:NSPORT which all the sports SNG's are part of.

  Q1: How is this guideline related to the general notability guideline?
  A1: The topic-specific notability guidelines described on this page do not replace the general notability guideline. They are intended only to stop an article from being quickly deleted when there is very strong reason to believe that significant, independent, non-routine, non-promotional secondary coverage from multiple reliable sources is available, given sufficient time to locate it. Wikipedia's standard for including an article about a given person is not based on whether or not he/she has attained certain achievements, but on whether or not the person has received appropriate coverage in reliable sources, in accordance with the general notability guideline. Also refer to Wikipedia's basic guidance on the notability of people for additional information on evaluating notability.)

  Q2: If a sports figure meets the criteria specified in a sports-specific notability guideline, does this mean he/she does not have to meet the general notability guideline?
  A2: No, the article must still eventually provide sources indicating that the subject meets the general notability guideline. Although the criteria for a given sport should be chosen to be a very reliable predictor of the availability of appropriate secondary coverage from reliable sources, there can be exceptions. For contemporary persons, given a reasonable amount of time to locate appropriate sources, the general notability guideline should be met in order for an article to meet Wikipedia's standards for inclusion. (For subjects in the past where it is more difficult to locate sources, it may be necessary to evaluate the subject's likely notability based on other persons of the same time period with similar characteristics.)

  Q3: If a sports figure does not meet the criteria specified in a sports-specific notability guideline, does this mean he/she does not meet Wikipedia's notability standards?
  A3: No, it does not mean this—if the subject meets the general notability guideline, then he/she meets Wikipedia's standards for having an article in Wikipedia, even if he/she does not meet the criteria for the appropriate sports-specific notability guideline. The sports-specific notability guidelines are not intended to set a higher bar for inclusion in Wikipedia: they are meant to provide some buffer time to locate appropriate reliable sources when, based on rules of thumb, it is highly likely that these sources exist.)

  Regarding Omar Hesham, then no evidence has been shown that he has the significant coverage to pass WP:GNG. I did a search my self, in english and in arabic, including in the Egyptian media but could not come with any sources good enough. On a related note, the WP:NFOOTY criteria, that all football players somehow magically turn notable after playing one match where everybody got paid without anyone having written so much of a sentance about them, is laughable at best. Alvaldi (talk) 18:51, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

The question is not necessarily about this article, it is about the current criteria for basketball players. Now there are only 10 leagues that make a player notable, do you know what criteria this selection is based on? --H-Hurry (talk) 18:57, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

@H-Hurry: To quote myself: WP:NHOOPS is meant to meet GNG for nearly every athlete that meets the stated criteria. These leagues have been demonstrated for players to meet WP:GNG. Yosemiter (talk) 19:07, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

@Yosemiter: Out of curiosity, is there any record on that there was ever a research done that demonstrated that the vast majority of the players of these leagues passed WP:GNG? Alvaldi (talk) 19:12, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

@Alvaldi: Most of the discussions predates my time here and WP:NSPORTS itself dating back to its transformation from WP:ATHLETE (where it started out as a general suggestions of notability and then discussed). But if you search the archives here and WT:WikiProject Basketball, there are dozens of discussions for adding and removing leagues, as well as the hundreds of AfDs for players that have tested the guideline against GNG. So, unfortunately, I can't really link one or two places to demonstrate the existing guideline, but someone who took part in the discussions over the past two decades might be able to. Yosemiter (talk) 19:49, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

@Yosemiter: No problem, predates my time as well. I did browse through the archives here and on WikiProject Basketball and, despite some editors being in favor of that, there doesn't seem to have been any demonstration on that the vast majority of players in any of these leagues passed WP:GNG, rather it was mostly just stick a finger up in the air and claim that this and that leagues must be on the list because reasons. Alvaldi (talk) 20:57, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Basketball has some of the higher standards in the sports SNGs. There are only a handful of domestic leagues where players are presumed notable and many others that aren’t listed at all and are left up to GNG solely. Rikster2 (talk) 21:04, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

@H-Hurry: Playing in any of these 10 leagues doesn't make a player automatically notable, it just means that he is supposedly likely to have the significant coverage to pass WP:GNG. He still has to pass it per WP:NSPORT. I'm honestly not sure that the case can be made for any more leagues, or even the majority of those 10 leagues, that 95% or more of its players have the significant coverage to pass WP:GNG. The NBA is a different breed, where even the lowliest one-game wonder usually has ample coverage. But can the same be said about the bottom four players of every team in any other league? But all of that doesn't matter, because in the end every player article has to show that he has the coverage to pass WP:GNG. For example, if Hesham was a NBA player and still did not have any more coverage than he has today, his article should be deleted. Alvaldi (talk) 19:08, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Aside from the NBA and the 3 historical leagues whose history is considered part of the NBAs there are actually only 5 domestic leagues (Italy, Spain, Australia, Israel, Greece), the EuroLeague (which constitutes the top clubs in Europe) and one women’s league (WNBA). Rikster2 (talk) 21:09, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• For my part, although I'm far from a basketball expert, I wager that FIBA establishing "Tier 1" leagues has very little to do with whether players in those leagues can meet the GNG. Do understand what such a rules change means: that a guy playing five minutes in a single game in the weakest league presumptively qualifies for an article. As far as the Heshams of the world go, my take isn't that failure to meet the guidelines means the guidelines need to be changed. It's that failure to meet the guidelines means they're not notable enough to warrant Wikipedia articles. Ravenswing 21:54, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
• It's not completely clear what a "Tier 1" league is; if the proposal is that any player in the top-level league of any country (even for a minute) should be inherently notable, I am strongly opposed. The (higher) threshold of being on a national team is more interesting; in a discussion a while back I suggested that participating at a top-level international tournament like the 2019 FIBA Basketball World Cup should be sufficient and could be listed in the SNG; the problem with simply saying "national team" is that national teams often use less-notable players (who do not meet GNG) for minor competitions. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 22:04, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

  I'd be in favor of adding a few more leagues to the presumed notable category, namely France, Germany, and maybe Russia. These leagues are on par with the Greek, French, or Australian leagues. Although I think this has been discussed many times before, if I recall. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 01:11, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

  So you're satisfied that if I started thumbing through rosters for, say, the French league, and picking out players who've played a single game, 90+% could meet the GNG? Ravenswing 02:16, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Anything for women? BlackAmerican (talk) 08:29, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

What do you mean by "anything"?—Bagumba (talk) 08:36, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Do you think the women's criteria should be changed? It seems fine as it stands for me. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 12:25, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Here's some trivia you guys don't know about: The basketball league with the most extensive coverage in the English language aside from the leagues found in the United States is the Philippine Basketball Association (arguably more than the National Basketball League (Australia)). I don't think the third player on a team's depth chart would satisfy WP:GNG, though. Howard the Duck (talk) 16:07, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Floorball

We should have a notability guideline for floorball players. My idea is that a player is notable if he has 5 games in Svenska Superligan, F-Liiga, National League A, Superliga florbalu or has played for any national team. KRANKENWAGEN (talk) 22:18, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Why 5? Why not 2? 23? Firm no. Unless you can show that these leagues and the player that play in them get consistent coverage, enough for us to be able to safely presume that somebody who participates there will indeed have gotten significant coverage, we're better just sticking with plain old WP:GNG, without yet another dubious SNG. Given that this is a sport which (according to the page here) had just over 300,000 players worldwide a few years ago (for comparison Cricket in the United States - a country where that sport is basically unknown - had just about 200,000); I would find it extremely dubious that any such player is likely to have gotten significant coverage. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:38, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Those are just leagues of the leading floorball countries. -KRANKENWAGEN (talk) 22:54, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

• As I said, it doesn't matter what they are, if there are no reliable sources which routinely provide significant coverage of the league, teams and their players, then it's no use making an SNG. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:10, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
• There IS a notability guideline that covers "floorball" players. It's called the GNG. Demonstrate with reliable sources that one of these players can meet it, then the player merits an article. Easy peasy. Ravenswing 23:25, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Sporting arenas

Is there any rule on sporting arenas/centers etc. Just wondering. KRANKENWAGEN (talk) 22:09, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

@KRANKENWAGEN: See WP:NBUILDING Yosemiter (talk) 14:41, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2019 Ohio State Buckeyes men's soccer team

I would appreciate additional input from folks following this page on this AFD. The question is regarding the notability of five college soccer seasons from 2014 to 2019. I feel the discussion may have reached an impasse, and I would like to hear additional voices from the project concerning these articles. Thanks! Jay eyem (talk) 15:50, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Accusations of deliberate misogyny in writing NSPORTS / NFOOTY at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red

Hi. At Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red#Mass deletion nomination of 14 women Footballers Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barbara Lorsheijd, some editors are claiming that NFOOTY was written deliberately to keep in as many men as possible, and to keep out as many women as possible (e.g. " The policy was deliberately constructed by individuals who, presumably, considered the matter intently, and who designed a system that excludes women and includes thousands of, in all other respect, non-notable men. You seem to be suggesting that the outcome was not designed, was not deliberate. That's completely not credible. " and "The whole system is very obviously made and propped up for sexist reasons and for keeping in obviously non-notable male players."). I have challenged these personal attacks, only to get editors doubling down on them. Perhaps some people who have been involved with the writing of NSPORTS / NFOOTY can chime in and give their view on this? Fram (talk) 15:12, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Can we keep any discussion in one place please? I'll post there. GiantSnowman 20:54, 8 October 2021 (UTC)