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Citing page numbers in PDF documents?

@Daniel Case in Valhalla train crash there's a large number of citations to a NTSB report as a PDF document (ref 13 in Special:Permalink/1202959297) which refer to page numbers (i.e. {{rp|58–61}}) using the PDF page numbers instead of the numbers printed on each page. What do folks think of this? I'm inclined to say it's not a good idea because somebody who has access to the report in printed form won't be able to map the citations to the paper copy. But I'd like to hear what other people feel about this. RoySmith (talk) 22:55, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Maybe if it's a very large PDF with multiple documents with their own pagination it might be a useful, additional convenience to also include the page of the PDF, but I think in most cases it makes more sense to use the pages printed on the page when possible. Past discussion: Wikipedia talk:Citing sources/Archive 44#Which page number to use when citing PDFs? and Wikipedia talk:Citing sources/Archive 32#PDF Page Number. Umimmak (talk) 23:39, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

There was just recently a thread about this at WT:CS1. The gist is that it should cite the printed page numbers, since people may access the document in multiple formats, including paper, but links can go directly to the PDF page number, e.g.: |pages=[https://example.com/foo/bar.pdf#page=65 62–63].

PS: {{rp}} should no longer be used; it's a form of parenthetical referencing (injecting citation details into the article body instead of keeping them in the citation), and all of that was deprecated by the community in 2022. See User:SMcCandlish/How to use the sfnp family of templates for a crash course on one replacement system. It supports the parameter example I just gave, as do CS1/CS2 templates directly; in sfnp, harvp, and related templates, the shorthand |p= or |pp= can also be used, while if something more specific needed like naming a section, the CS1/CS2 |at= can be used to include a page number with an annotation, and sfnp, etc., have the equivalent |loc=.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:07, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Funny that you should say this. On another article I've been working on in draftspace recently one source is a 77-minute video documentary. It's obviously not enough just to cite the video; one has to cite the timestamp of the material that supports it, much as we would cite the page number or range of a 300-page book. And I found myself having to use {{rp}} ... I'd love to use {{sfn}} but there's just no way to make that work with {{cite AV media}}. Someone, in the process of creating that former template, failed to remember that people cite things other than documents, even though that should have been obvious at the time it was created. Perhaps that can be addressed soon in the Community Wishlist Survey.

Likewise, I'd love to see some equivalent version that works with {{bluebook journal}} or {{cite court}} to produce acceptable short versions of cites in Bluebook format (i.e. "AUTHOR, at PAGE" or "CASE SHORT TITLE, at PAGE" for the first time a single page is cited after the original full cite. Daniel Case (talk) 02:26, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Cite AV media supports the |ref= field, so you can use {{sfnref}} to setup the link. Bluebook journal can be used with sfn in the normal way you would use it with {{cite journal}}, it will cause a false-positive error but that can be suppressed with {{sfn whitelist}}.
{{cite court}} doesn't support either method, but that's what {{wikicite}} is for. Wrap the 'cite court' inside the wikicite, and setup the |ref= field with sfnref. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 03:14, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

{{cite court}} now supports |ref=. You can use {{sfnref}} to create the anchor however you need, the same as CS1 templates. The short citation templates all have a |loc= parameter to cite things that are not pages. @Daniel Case: where were you looking for this in the documentation? It should likely be added there. And would |at= be more intuitive than |loc= for the sfn/sfnp/harv templates? Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 05:21, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

SMcCandlish recently raised the loc / at point at Module talk:Footnotes#loc, at, but that page doesn't have much traffic. It does seem more consistent, as |location= is for the general physical location of the publisher. I hate to think how many corrections would have to be made of it was changed though. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:23, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

I'd like it if loc= and at= were aliases, that would make {{sfn}} and {{cite}} more consistent to use with each other. Since loc= would remain valid, existing usages wouldn't need to be changed, as I understand it. Gawaon (talk) 16:00, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

I use loc= for all sorts of free-form usages. I've cited things I've found in old newspapers and put something like "near the bottom of column three on page 47" in the loc field, because otherwise there's no way anybody could find what I was talking about. Services like newspaper.com do provide URL-addressable clippings, but they have the same problem as PDF page numbers; they won't be of any use to somebody accessing the original source material via a different format (paper archive, microfilm, etc). But, yeah, a computer should be smart enough to see "loc=47", figure out that the digit string is a page number, and format it accordingly. RoySmith (talk) 16:25, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I go by what I read in template documentation. It should be no surprise; we seem to be absolutely horrible at updating it. For instance, only thanks to SMcCandlish above did I learn that {{rp}} has been deprecated for over a year. There is still nothing on the documentation to advise editors of that, much less tell us what we should do instead. Daniel Case (talk) 18:49, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

It's not really deprecated though… what was decided in 2022 was to get rid of in-line MLA/Harvard style parenthetical referencing; {{rp}} barely came up in that discussion. Having multiple back to back instances like this can get cluttered, but there isn’t a blanket proscription on this template (yet). Umimmak (talk) 18:57, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree. SMcCandlish created that template and has been steadily encouraging people to develop and use better options, but it's not actually banned, and Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2021 December 17#Template:Rp (more than a year after the RFC about parenthetical citations) had a WP:SNOW-level keep response. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:37, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I would not use the PDF's own page numbers if there are printed page numbers visible in the doc. We have had questions about this for academic journal articles, and the advice has always been to use the printed/official ones (which could be something like pp. 124–131) rather than the PDF's (always and automatically starting a 1). WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:41, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from, but more often than not the PDF's numbering is more visible than that on the pages in it. Sometimes, with more recent PDFs, it seems that it is possible for the equivalent page numbers to be used by the software, but a lot of older ones don't do that, and IME too many readers take the reader's numeration as canonical. Daniel Case (talk) 02:29, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Agreed -- where there are page numbers visible use those; where they are not, use the PDF-associate numbers. Note that some publishers have eschewed the addition of page numbers even to their printed works (looking at you Chasma Press), which presents some special issues. I believe the retirement of {{rp}} in favor of {{sfnp}} is a mistake, but I won't go into that more here as it's an aside. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:57, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

On Google Books, a lot of times when it gives you Google's e-book version there are no page numbers visible. You sort of have to guess from what the URL numbered the page you landed on from "Preview". Daniel Case (talk) 18:46, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:EBOOK If there are no page numbers, whether in ebooks or print materials, then you can use other means of identifying the relevant section of a lengthy work, such as the chapter number or the section title. -- Ebooks do not have fixed page numbers; the content per "page" dynamically adjusts based on window/screen size, font size, etc. You should not arbitrarily assign one based on how Google Books happened to format a particular title since that page number is meaningless for anyone who accesses that (e)book in any format other than the Google Books Preview. Umimmak (talk) 19:04, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Page numbers in older books can sometimes be interesting. I guess due to the requirements of the printing technology of the day, sometimes you would find a bunch of color plates bound into a book but outside of the normal page numbers. So, page 144, 145, no-number, no-number, no-number, no-number, 146, 147. I tend to cite those as "unnumbered page after page 145". I could see somebody naively looking at such a book and saying, "I don't know why they didn't number it, but it's after page 145 so it must be 146" and cite it as page 146, which would be wrong. RoySmith (talk) 19:21, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

I would firmly believe that the page numbers as printed should be those cited. Journals are regularly consecutively paginated; a PDF of a single chapter has the same issue. Moreover, some people might try to access it through other formats (eg Westlaw or Lexis' long web pages with [*123] to mark page divisions; see also Federal Register's version of the same with side notes). These are not compatible with this very naive approach to page number assignment. Ifly6 (talk) 19:40, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

• Why not put BOTH in the citation? We had the flexibility to do that when we formatted citations by hand (just add a parenthetical to explain). I would think it would be easy to add an extra parameter to our templates… One for printed pagination, another for PDF pagination. While we would not use both pagination fields often, having two would be very helpful on the rare occasions when there are two distinct paginations. Blueboar (talk) 20:06, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

  Why not put BOTH in the citation? — The citation originally being asked about is "Highway-Railroad Grade Crossing Collision, Commerce Street, Valhalla, New York; February 3, 2015" (PDF). National Transportation Safety Board. July 25, 2017. pp. 18–19. Retrieved March 25, 2018. Hereafter cited as NTSB Report; page numbers will be those given by the PDF software, rather than those indicated in the document's pages. — to me, this is not one of those rare occasions which would benefit from including both. This article makes use of {{rp}} so has citations like ; to me it seems much more intuitive to ignore the line about page numbers will be those given by the PDF software, rather than those indicated in the document's pages. and just have . There's no easy way to include both sets of page numbers with {{rp}} but even if these were converted to more standard short referencing I don't think any reader would benefit more from NTSB 2015, pp. 26–27 [37–38 PDF] over just NTSB 2015, pp. 26–27 in this particular case. Umimmak (talk) 20:32, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

  Absolutely. If a doc has page numbers, there's no good reason not to use them. If not, the question of "both" won't arise. Gawaon (talk) 20:57, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

  I would only use the printed page numbers for that NTSB report. I would expect others to do the same (e.g., if a news report needs to say something like "the photo on page 12 of the report"). WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:40, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

  What would we do, however, if what we wanted to cite was on a page that is unnumbered in the document? Daniel Case (talk) 06:52, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

  Is that the case here? On the odd occasion you would have to do that, you’d treat it like you would when you cite an unnumbered page of a print report/book: |at=Front cover, |at=Title page, |at=Copyright page, etc. I guess in a pinch you could say something like |at=Frontmatter, n.p., but just because one might conceivably cite a non-numbered page from a report doesn’t mean one should completely ignore the actual page numbers printed on each page. Umimmak (talk) 07:21, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Why is all this not in the documentation?

It has been such a pleasure to get dragged into this discussion and learn about all these things, rather than in, oh, the appropriate template documentation, you know, that big wall o' text on green background that most users consult when they want to know how to cite things? Template:Cite web/doc#In-source locations, for instance, says nothing about using a PDF's internal page; nor does its book counterpart explain anything about what WP:EBOOKS tells us (In fact, I can't find where EBOOKS takes me other to the main WP:CITE page ... there is no boxed shortcut I can end up at. I realize that template documentation is mainly technical, but there is absolutely nowhere on them that I can remember ever being directed to one of these links to know what I've been doing wrong all these years of not participating in discussions here because I was too busy creating content and blocking vandals.

There's WP:PAGENUM, but it says nothing that would lead an editor to conclude that the printed page number is preferred over the one given by the reader.

Also, there is WP:PAGELINKS ... what number do we put in the URL? The printed one or the one the reading software uses (which may not always be the same)? Daniel Case (talk) 07:14, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

I suppose no one just ever expected an editor to not just use the page numbers printed on the page for the page numbers. This is the appropriate venue because one can cite pages with the CS1 family of citations, {{citation}}, or without any template at all — this is a question about citing sources in general, not about a specific template, although the documentation in various templates could be changed if this is deemed necessary. WP:PAGENUM reads If there are no page numbers, whether in ebooks or print materials, then you can use other means of identifying the relevant section of a lengthy work, such as the chapter number or the section title. — to me that suggests if there are page numbers then no additional instructions are needed because one would just use those. Umimmak (talk) 07:32, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

I decided to stop being snotty about this and ponder why we started doing it that way. I think it goes back to the late 2000s, when we only had the now-long-deprecated {{PDFlink}} (which had no page number support IIRC) for PDFs and we didn't have all the {{cite}} ones yet. At the time, also, I remember, a lot of PDFs were often created specifically for the web, usually from Word. They were rarely more than one-page documents, and those that were often weren't numbered within the documents because no one expected them to be used anywhere but online. And further, clicking on one usually triggered Adobe Acrobat Reader or whatever other software you had installed to read them, externally entirely from your browser.

I remember over at WP:NRHP we often had to deal with scanned copies of old nominations to the National Register which had never been numbered because no one expected them to be so easily readable when they were created and reviewed. That may have been where we used software-assigned pagination.

Nowadays, with a lot of online PDFs being versions of hard-copy documents even though they may be read much more online than off, that's less of an issue than it was, but I must admit that even in 2017 I was still holding to the old way.

For things that clearly have a real-world existence, like journal articles or court decisions (anything using consecutive pagination, really), I have always used that pagination.

Of course there's another issue ... PDFs comprising a collection of documents from disparate sources whose on-page pagination isn't sequential, so you might have several possible page 7s. Yes, you could give the title of the collection of documents within the PDF, but a reader might not know that and wonder where your source is and, when they don't find it, plant a {{failed verification}} tag that really wasn't justified inline and give you a small headache. In that case it would make more sense to use the software's pagination; the issue that prompted Roy to start this thread would not be a problem because the document represented by the PDF wouldn't/doesn't exist in real life.

Daniel Case (talk) 07:01, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Just to state the obvious, usage of {{rp}} (and {{r}} as well?) and whether or not it is desirable/deprecated or whatever should be in documentation. Generally, I think a lot of the grief over referencing is due to a lack of clear, up-to-date and well thought out documentation that is accessible to the ordinary editor. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 08:39, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree that much of the documentation around citations is just plain terrible. I suspect much of it makes sense to the insiders, but to people coming at this new, it's impenetrable. I also think (and I know I'm not going to convince anybody of this) we need to standardize on one common reference style that's used everywhere. Even if we went with a style that I don't like, at least it would be a common target that everybody could aim for, ranging from end users, to the people who document templates, to the people who write tools like Visual Editor or Citoid. RoySmith (talk) 15:44, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

You will get no argument from me when you say that documentation around citations is just plain terrible. If you think it needs improving, improve it. None of the cs1|2 documentation is protected; anyone who has the skill to improve the documentation may do so. If you know how to improve the citation documentation, don't complain about it, improve it.

If the past is any predictor of the future, what happens now will be absolutely nothing ... until the next time it is convenient to complain about citation documentation. Whereupon, I shall reissue this challenge, get the same result; wash rinse repeat.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:02, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

With all due respect, that's blaming the victim. How can somebody who doesn't understand how something works improve the documentation which explains how it works? RoySmith (talk) 16:27, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't think so. My experience suggests that newbies who don't understand ask for help rather than complain about documentation quality. It's the experienced editors who do understand that complain about documentation quality. I suspect that you are a member of that latter group. Because I am so close to the cs1|2 templates from a technical point of view, I tend to write from that point of view which is not really accessible to non-technical editors. In the real world, there are people (there were when I was living in the real world) who translate writing written by technical people into something that a user can understand. That is what we need here. Wikipedia has lots of people who are skilled at writing for those who don't 'know'. They are the people who can make citation documentation accessible. Will they? Will you?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:59, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

It keeps going back to the fact that we are all volunteers here. I have experience at creating and presenting training materials for bureaucratic procedures and for computer use, but I edit WP because I enjoy finding good sources and adding content. That, and trying to follow the selection of project pages that are on my watchlist, already eats up more time than I am comfortable with spending on WP. I've also seen editors put in a lot of time revamping policy or guidance pages, only to see the community flatly reject the changes (although, what I'm thinking of happened many years ago). So, while I might consider helping on a rewrite of the citation procedures, I would want to be sure first that the community wants it to happen, and there was some clear consensus on what would constitute an improvement. That means there would have to be a lot more discussion than we have seen here. Donald Albury 17:57, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

If there were to be a revamp of referencing advice/methods/etc. it would make sense to start with analysing whether what we have actually meets the hopes and aspirations on the subject. A particular problem is the way the long form reference displays the page numbers in the text of an article. Fine if it is just one page number, but if you have two page ranges that support the article text, or a non-numerical location identifier, it takes a lot of article space. I am no fan of {{sfn}} (pain in the neck to edit) but it gives a much better result for the reader. Surely something like that could be replicated with long form references? ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 08:38, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Should our aspirations on referencing include a target of reducing the number of ways of doing this? We already have parenthetical referencing deprecated. Is this a clue that we should perhaps target just two main referencing styles (long and short form) and achieve those with a limited number of templates that would give style consistency? The advantage would be for the reader, as they would consistently see better technical displays of referencing info (getting mouse-over displays, etc.). I suspect that it would also weed out some "problem" references – for example ambiguous identification of the work cited in a short referencing arrangement. I am not suggesting a massive conversion of all of Wikipedia to a new system, just preferring a more limited range of methods for new content. Clearly, a slimmed down methodology would be much easier to document for new and existing users. I appreciate this might upset the "Betamax man" editors who are wedded to an older system, but I think that is just a feature of a changing world. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 08:53, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Established citation style

If I completely rewrite an article (not keeping any of the original text or references), I usually use whatever citation style makes sense to me. If someone else comes along and says they want the citation style changed to what it was before the rewrite, are they correct? (t · c) buidhe 00:01, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Assuming that what was there had an established citation style, yes. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:12, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

If there was a clear style beforehand, and you heavily modified the article then the style shouldn't change. But if the article is completely replaced with a new version then choosing a new style would seem appropriate. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:16, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with ActivelyDisinterested; a rewriter has discretion to choose a new citation style. Ifly6 (talk) 22:34, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

In particular, as articles grow in size and complexity, a change to the citation style can often be a good idea.

Even if none of that applies, it's important to remember that the other editor can't single-handedly require that the old style be used. They can only require that a discussion happen on the talk page, and that both of you adhere to the result of any consensus reached there. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:48, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

You should ask on talk first. If the article is in such a state that it needs completely rewriting, probably no one will object. Johnbod (talk) 04:28, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree that there should be a discussion on the talk page. However, just to be clear, there was a previously established citation style that was 100% consistent and follows a widely used citation style. The article was completely rewritten, but extensive edits (from more than one editor) using the previously established citation style were made afterwards. Boghog (talk) 22:37, 8 February 2024 (UTC) So it is OK to change the citation style once, but not twice? Boghog (talk) 22:59, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion the edits afterwards the rewrite should have confirmed to the article style as it was after it had been rewritten. If the article is basically a different article, the previous style has no bearing on the the article after the rewrite. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:41, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

The subsequent edits are substantial approaching another rewrite. What really matters is consensus on the article's talk page. Boghog (talk) 00:35, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

And, I recommend, on the article's actual talk page, not the GA review page. The Wikipedia:Good article criteria explicitly say that consistent citation format is not required for GA status. Therefore, that's a problem that you can solve at your leisure, after the GA review (hopefully) gets resolved one way or the other soon. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

@Boghog: I agree that the discussion is unrelated to the GA review. As WhatamIdoing says, a consistent format is not part of the standard. The GA criteria only require citations sufficient to locate the cited source. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 03:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

An article rewrite requires a significant amount of input from the editor(s) tackling it. A rewrite also implies that there is something fundamentally wrong with the article in its previous state. One of those may well be an old-fashioned citation style that is not appropriate to the needs of the article. It seems rather onerous on editor(s) who are prepared to put in the work on a rewrite to have their hands tied on one aspect of how it is done.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 09:36, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Their hands are only tied if there is a consensus on the talk page not to change the citation style. If there's something fundamentally wrong with the article, it's usually going to be the case that there's no editor who is actively looking after it and there would be no objections on the talk page. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:03, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes. We have probably millions of articles with "something fundamentally wrong with" them, but, contrary to what many editors seem to think, this is never or almost never "an old-fashioned citation style that is not appropriate to the needs of the article". That's a very minor aspect. Johnbod (talk) 15:39, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

MOS:RETAIN pertains to the first non-stub version of an article. If it was previously a stub, you are free to change the citation style. Otherwise, as noted above, you require consensus on the talk page for a change. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 17:27, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Am I reading MOS:RETAIN wrong? It's just about the English version, isn't it? ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 18:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

What about if subsequent citations added have not conformed to the style of the first citation? What if the original citations did not conform to current standards? Consider Vaquita, which looked like this (definitely not a stub) after the first edit on 25 November 2003? The citations had become a mess by this version on 18 April 2023. Are you saying that I was wrong to revise the citations to a current standard (not the original style) here, as of 5 May 2023, without finding a consensus to do so on the talk page? Donald Albury 17:53, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

This would seem to go against the third pint of "Generally considered helpful" under CITEVAR, "imposing one style on an article with inconsistent citation styles". If the article is now a mess of citation styles now, I don't believe it's helpful to insist editors search back through the article history before tidying the referencing. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:35, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

• This is simple… go to the article talk page and reach a consensus on which citation style should be used in the article going forward. Do that, and any previous citation styles that may have been used/not used no longer matter. Blueboar (talk) 19:17, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

The expectation of a consensus on citation style may well come up against an article-watching editor who, almost by definition, thinks the existing set-up is OK. I suggest that is why there are articles out there with referencing that is difficult to handle (largely from a reader point of view). To pick an example: in Vasa (ship), where you will also find explanatory footnotes treated as references, and lots of meaningless ref names (e.g. ref name=":0") – and an editor who seems to resist change. OK, there will be another point of view on that example, but it looks like a barrier to improvement to me. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 19:21, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

There certainly is; I personally find splitting explanatory footnotes and references tiresome and unhelpful, both as an editor and a reader. Academic books almost never do it, and I simply don't understand why so many of our editors do. I agree re the "ref name=":0""though, but these are produced by the templates that new editors are instructed to use these days. Johnbod (talk) 04:35, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

The issue of separate notes is about an online encyclopaedia that is trying to use summary style. An explanatory footnote allows the editor to handle something that breaks the flow of an article (perhaps an explanation that will be well-known to some readers). This is similar to the links to other articles – sure there are links in printed encyclopaedias, but not so speedy as we have here. What an {{efn}} allows is the ability to reference the content of a footnote without risking breaking the constraints of the referencing system being used. Whether or not our system follows the format of most academic works has little relevance as the majority of Wikipedia readers do not spend a lot of time (any?) reading such academic material. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 08:28, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

This makes little sense frankly. A long (or short) footnote also "allows the editor to handle something that breaks the flow of an article", whether or not it is lumped in with mere citations. If it is true that "the majority of Wikipedia readers do not spend a lot of time (any?) reading such academic material", which probably depends a lot on the article subject, then we are probably all wasting our time adding referencing and notes at all. In general departures from the style of the best WP:RS should be regarded with suspicion. Johnbod (talk) 12:32, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

When I am reading a WP article just for pleasure, I don't bother checking the references, but I always click through to the extended footnotes. Similarly, when I am reading a book with end-of-chapter or end-of-book footnotes, I like to look at any footnotes that provide information beyond a cited work and page number, and find it a little annoying when I have to look at many footnotes to find the few that do provide information beyond just a citation. I think it is useful to distinguish between footnotes that are only providing a citation and footnotes that are providing additional/peripheral information. Donald Albury 19:06, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

The named reference thing is covered by replacing opaque named-reference names with conventional ones, such as "Einstein-1905" instead of ":27", and changing them to something more descriptive shouldn't be seen as controversial. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:30, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

My general impression of that article is that the citation style is in pretty good shape and certainly not in need of a major overhaul. Gawaon (talk) 20:39, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I think it's easier than that - if you at the point of making mass changes because you don't like the citation style, go do something else. This applies if someone has rewritten an article and changed the style while doing so, or you find an article and don't like it's current style. If the there is no consistent style then making it consistent is fine and helpful, as per policy, but otherwise there is much more important work to be done. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I perhaps should have explained that the consensus in the example I gave is, arguably, not that in the head of the resisting editor. On not mixing explanatory footnotes with references, they actively removed efn templates from three different editors in different parts of the article (surely a consensus – actions speak louder than words) and then claim they have a consensus against that template. Going into detail on that article (a WP:FA!!) would be out of place here, but the referencing is chaotic, with ref names for the same work having multiple unrelated versions. Oh, and I have just altered some of the opaque refnames to something identifiable. To be clear, I am leaving what I see as antiquated referencing alone where possible, but since the style is already mixed and the talk page did give an OK to using templates, I use them on new content. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 20:26, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Just to say my comment was in reply to Blueboar and about the situation in general. It shouldn't be read as criticism of you or any other editor. I would agree the specific details are better discussed at the articles talk page rather than here. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:30, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

References

What to do if original website was replaced by predatory dangerous website

What is the easiest way to modify the "cite web"? See example of what I did [1]. Do not click on link I replaced! But obviously it is not a good way. And there are several dozens of links to this website - Altenmann >talk 06:20, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

@Altenmann, I believe that you are looking for |url-status=usurped. See the options in Template:Cite web#URL if you want to read more about it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:50, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

|url-status=unfit.  — Archer1234 (t·c) 06:51, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

url-status=usurped worked great in George de Godzinsky, thanks! It made the original link invisible. - Altenmann >talk 06:57, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, here is a link to the section of the {{cite web}} documentation where all of the supported values for |url-status= are explained: Template:Cite_web#csdoc_urlstatus  — Archer1234 (t·c) 07:05, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Separate section for explanatory notes

A few comments above show resistance to having explanatory notes separate from the references that support the article text. Two points here: (1) a (very brief) survey of featured articles and (2) thoughts on technical reasons whey separate notes are desirable (is the technical argument right?)

(1) Surveyed 10 featured articles and found 2 that did not use explanatory notes in any way. The remaining 8 all had the explanatory notes separate from references.

(2) I believe that the only way to put explanatory notes in the same section as the references is with ref../ref. However, for technical reasons, you could not put any links or other markup elements in the explanatory note. The only way to reference the note (and if it is an explanatory note, it almost certainly needs a reference) is to just type it in with the rest of the note content. This is, essentially, parenthetical referencing, which is deprecated. The only way that I know to show explanatory notes without using ref.../ref is with a template such as {{efn}}, which seems to compel a separate explanatory notes section. Therefore, if explanatory notes are to be referenced, surely anything other than a separate explanatory notes section is deprecated. Does this idea hold water? ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 12:10, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this does hold water. See Wulfhere of Mercia for a featured article with explanatory notes in amongst the footnotes, and with embedded links. (I'm not sure why you think markup is not possible in a reference.) You've posted many times over the last few weeks, arguing for or against certain citation formats. I don't think the results of those discussions have been productive, and it's worth repeating that the point of CITEVAR is almost entirely to avoid having such discussions in the first place, because people have such strong opinions about citation formats (as you've seen) that it's almost never productive to do so. What's your ultimate goal here? To get rid of CITEVAR? To deprecate one or more currently acceptable formats? If so I think you are most unlikely to be successful, and I doubt it's worth the time investment you're making in it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:32, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

In reverse order: My goals are (1) to try and understand exactly how the mechanics of referencing works so that we can all concentrate on article content – I regard myself as a "content" editor not a "technical" editor (2) have a referencing system that uses the technology in a way that is helpful to the reader.

Technical limitations come from (a) Template:Refn, which I now see is incorrect on not being able to link to another article within the ref../ref text.
(b) because: article text<ref>this is an explanatory note and here is its reference <ref> cited work</ref></ref>
gives: article text</ref>
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 13:04, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I think Cefnllys Castle#Notes demonstrates a different sort of explanatory note (especially note 2) than we see in Wulfhere of Mercia. The former example gives information forks which the reader can choose or not choose to follow, whereas the latter is really just exploring the matter of sources in more detail. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 13:15, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Mike Christie. None of these lengthy musings are likely to lead anywhere. Johnbod (talk) 16:10, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Item (2) is plain wrong. It is bad ides to put notes in the same section as references, for several reasons. And I often use {{efn}} syntax, which allows references within, see eg. Town of fools or Wise Men of Chelm. - Altenmann >talk 17:20, 15 February 2024‎ (UTC)

I think the situation in which mixing the two types is most common is when there is only one or two explanatory notes and not very many sources, either. If editors don't want to bother with separate sections in that circumstance, I don't really blame them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:58, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree, but I saw cases when the notes are, like, 50% of the text and nearly no references. But at the first glance the article looks thoroughly referenced because there are so many footnotes. In such cases I split notes and refs, just to see what is going on. - Altenmann >talk 21:22, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Note that ThoughtIdRetired is very aggressively campaigning to force a change of the note standard in talk:Vasa (ship). They've been at it at galley too. Peter ^Isotalo 20:15, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Editor changing citation style from short to long formatting.

Recently at Heidi Game, Khoa41860 changed most citations from short to long format, see these diffs. As one of those who improved the article to FA standard, my inclination is to consider this a violation of WP:CITEVAR and no real improvement to the article, but it's essentially a matter of formatting, so I'd appreciate opinions on whether it is something to keep or revert per the MOS. I don't think leaving a note on the talk page of the article would get me the informed opinions I seek on a matter of MOS, and I already have left a note on the editor's talk page to no real result. Thoughts?--Wehwalt (talk) 16:13, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Those edits are indeed harmful, full bibliographic details for every source should be given just once. Otherwise readers are confused and editors' lives are made much harder. Frankly, I'd certainly revert them. Gawaon (talk) 16:18, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Not everyone agrees that "readers are confused" by seeing the normal/full citation when they hover over a ref tag, and some of us actively disagree that "editors' lives are made much harder" by using a less familiar system (in about 1% of articles here, and almost unheard of at most other Wikipedias) that is not supported by any of the buttons in the toolbars (except maybe in WikEd, which I haven't used for years because it was so slow). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:19, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Should be. Khoa41860 (talk) 19:24, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:19, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Remove all redundant bibliographic details and only keep one please. Khoa41860 (talk) 16:51, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

update them and remove any redundants. Khoa41860 (talk) 16:51, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I have reverted to the prior version, per CITEVAR. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks. Wehwalt (talk) 17:10, 21 February 2024 (UTC)