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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Operation Rösselsprung (1944)

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Hawkeye7 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 08:12, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Operation Rösselsprung (1944) edit

Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (send... over)


The airborne attack on Drvar and the attempt to kill Tito and decapitate the Yugoslav Partisan movement is one of the most enduring stories of Yugoslavia in WWII. Led by the only Waffen-SS airborne unit using parachute and glider insertion, it failed for a range of reasons, including fierce Partisan resistance and failures in planning and intelligence sharing. It has recently been enhanced using material from a number of publications in written in Serbo-Croatian. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:39, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comment/query -- Hi PM, I don't know if I'll get around to posting a full review, at least not for a while, but scanning it quickly I'm just curious: do sources address speculation of how post-war Europe might've been different if the mission had succeeded? If none of them really go into it, no prob, it's not for us to invent what-if scenarios that aren't given weight in the literature, and even if they do one could well argue that it opens up a can of worms re. articles on many wartime operations, but thought I'd ask... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:34, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not that I've seen, Ian. It's a bit like SS-GB, IMO, Geoffrey Robertson would have a field day with it. I tend to think that Yugoslavia would have been firmly in the Warsaw Pact post-1948, and the Soviets would have made sure of it. But it was actually a close-run thing, lots of lucky breaks as well as fanatical fighting by Tito's bodyguard battalion and others. Lucky the German intel guys didn't talk to each other, lucky the SS-paras landed on the cemetery rather than on the northside of town, lucky they didn't have any sensible contingency plans for the second drop, lucky the Brit sigs officer had the presence of mind to bring the radio etc etc. It must have given Tito a real scare. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:45, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Okay mate, tks for prompt response -- that's it for now but I'll keep the page on my watchlist... :-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:54, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Some units needed a convert template.
  • got them all I think.
  • consistency: northeast, south east. British and Australian English use a hyphen more often than not.
  • all consistent now.
  • "Importantly, the 4th Krajina Division of the 5th Corps was deployed between Bihać and Bosanski Petrovac": important why?
  • Because of their positions in terms of the German thrusts, I've added a bit
  • Words like Abwehr need to be translated.
  • done
Thanks Dan, I'll get onto those points. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 03:44, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

  • The article notes that the British were aware that a German operation codenamed Rösselsprung is planned, not knowing where and when it would take place, so I'm wondering if the same passage would be better off noting that the Molotov thought that the British had more info on the attack than that and indicated this explicitly in his telegram to Korneev on 28 May. Apparently the Molotov's suspicion was based on Maclean's and Churchill's absence from Drvar at the time. (Source: Norman Naimark; Leonid Gibianskii: The Establishment of Communist Regimes in Eastern Europe, 1944-1949 [1], p. 57) Cheers--Tomobe03 (talk) 11:23, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by nominator

  • I am just squaring away some edits made by an enthusiastic and helpful editor who can read the Yugoslav sources far better than me. If you are planning to review, just relax for a tick, I'll have it sorted shortly, and will note it here when I'm done. Thanks everyone, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 13:41, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have now got the additions into shape. I will now address the outstanding comments already here. Sorry about the delay. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 04:52, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comment: The article should use Mrkonjić Grad, not "Mrkonjić-Grad". 23 editor (talk) 14:11, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Thanks. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:03, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

SupportComment: G'day, I've done a bit of copy editing, but I fear I may have gone too hard. As such, can you please review my changes and let me know what you think? If you are happy, I will continue at a later stage. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 22:31, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • No prob, Rupert. The prose got a little screwy as an unintended consequence of an enthusiastic ESL editor who began contributing after the nomination. Help would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 22:34, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Cheers, I've finished now and I've added my support. Very interesting article. Please check my edits and adjust as you see fit. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:56, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • CommentsSupport
    • No dab links [2] (no action req'd).
    • External links check out [3] (no action req'd).
    • Most of the images have Alt Text so you might consider adding it for consistency [4] (not an ACR req - suggestion only).
    • Images all seem to be PD / free and seem to have the req'd information (no action req'd)
    • Captions mostly look fine, one issue:
      • A couple use terms like "View of Drvar today" and "Tito's cave headquarters today" which are both obviously inaccurate as they weren't taken "today". Wonder if the actual date of the photographs should be used instead.
    • No duplicate links (no action req'd)
    • The Citation Check Tool reveals no issues with reference consolidation (no action req'd)
    • The Earwig Tool reveal no issues with copyright violation or close paraphrasing (only a couple of wiki mirrors) [5] (no action req'd)
    • "Supreme Partisan Headquarters was located in the town of Drvar..." this seems to duplicate text in the last para "He established his headquarters nearby at Drvar..."
    • "...glider assault by 500th SS Parachute Battalion who..." → "...glider assault by 500th SS Parachute Battalion which..."
    • "...would be insufficient for the whole of 500th SS Parachute Battalion..." → "...would be insufficient for the whole of the 500th SS Parachute Battalion..."
    • Missing definite article here: "...500th SS Parachute Battalion began to parachute and glide onto..." → "The 500th SS Parachute Battalion began to parachute and glide onto..."
    • "Panther Group supported by Red Group overcame minimal resistance at the cemetery and Captain Rybka..." should just be "Rybka" removing rank after formal introduction per WP:SURNAME
    • "Initially, Tito had been in favour of continuation of the attack on the SS paratroopers..." → "Initially, Tito had been in favour of continuing the attack on the SS paratroopers..."
    • Otherwise looks very good to me. Quite an interesting episode. Anotherclown (talk) 05:21, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Rupert has fixed most of the grammar issues, I've done the rest. Thanks for the review. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 14:03, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments

  • Given that the vast majority of soldiers in the airborne attack were from the 500th, I'd change assault force based on the 500th SS Parachute Battalion to "assault/attack by the 500th" in the lede.
  • Do you have an ID for the additional panzer grenadier battalion attached to the 7th SS Div? I'm thinking that this might be a mischaracterization of the unit by the source as actual panzergrenadier units were scarce as hen's teeth in the Balkans until later in the war. In fact the only viable candidates that I can think of are the 902nd Panzergrenadier-Lehr Regt or just possibly a unit from the still-forming 16th SS-Panzergrenadier Div RFSS. It is most probably a motorized infantry or even a line infantry (grenadier) unit, but I can't be sure with most of my library in storage.
    • No, it was from 2nd Panzer Army direct-command troops, and according to Greentree, it was an ad hoc kampfgruppe formed using officer cadets. All sources refer to it as "panzer-grenadier".
      • Then I'd suggest clarifying that it was an ad-hoc formation, so as not to confuse people like me, who probably know more about the German order of battle than is good for them (admittedly a rarity).--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:56, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've added it from Greentree, he's the only one that mentions it. Let me know what you think? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:52, 29 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • I think that there's some confusion here. I'm talking about the panzer grenadier unit mentioned in the 4th bullet in the ground forces section. That's the one that's confused me.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:36, 29 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
            • I'm looking across all the sources to check, I think it's actually a duplication. Should have it sorted today, Kumm should be pretty definitive as he has translations of the corps and divisional operation orders. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 22:40, 30 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
              • It was a duplication, there was only one, the one of officer cadets. I've checked the sources and the narrative of the battle, and there is only one mentioned. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 02:35, 4 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Munoz's book Forgotten Legions: Obscure Combat Formations Of The Waffen-SS, has the best account in English of the operation that I've read. Why wasn't it consulted?
    • I don't have access to a copy, but there are plenty of good accounts in English, in scholarly papers, as well as the Yugoslav books.
  • Should clarify that the Partisans are in red and the Axis in blue on the maps.
    • Done in the first map.
  • Put all of the English-language the titles in your references in title case.
    • Done.
  • Images appropriately licensed.
  • Nicely done.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:01, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


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