Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Operation Black Buck
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article promoted by Gog the Mild (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 23:20, 26 March 2020 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list
Operation Black Buck edit
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I upgraded this article while working on British logistics in the Falklands War. Or was it V bombers? One of those. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:41, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
Source review—pass edit
Problem sources:
- noticiasmilitares: This article is a reprint from Forca Aerea (No. 49), published by the Brazilian Air Force. Original source should be credited.
- Vulcan To The Sky: minor nonprofit organization with unclear content policies. Effectively self-published. What makes it reliable?
- Sunday Express: Per WP:RSP, this source is deprecated. The article is from 2015 so editorial standards were probably not much better than present. Not reliable.
- Other sources OK.
Comments by Sturmvogel_66 edit
- Really don't think that the aircraft tail codes are necessary at all. We are supposed to summarize this sort of material, IMO. Same with the departure and arrival times.
- While we don't usually give the numbers of famous planes, two of them are famous enough to have their own articles, and none of them have names, so it is hard to carry the narrative without them. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:55, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- That's just it; it's perfectly easy to carry the narrative without them. Identify the aircraft that have articles, and their pilots, and drop all the rest. I'm an aviation buff and I couldn't care less what the Victors' tail codes were, nor their pilots. All I'm concerned about is that x Victors accompanied the Vulcans and y had to turn back for problems, etc. This level of detail is most appropriate for a specialized account of the aerial portion of the campaign, not a generalist encyclopedia. Just because it's available doesn't mean it's necessary to incorporate it.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:14, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- J. S. B. Price needs a comma after his last name.
- blocked off
with filler - Hyphenate non-return valves
- Delete the link to Air-to-Air refuelling as you've already referred to it as aerial refuelling
- Pilots of the Victors not needed.
- The twenty-one bombs were dropped using the 90-way system. Redundant, you already told the reader how they were going to be dropped.
- Never in my life have I seen gee forces annotated with this symbology: 2 g0. Just call them Gs or gees with a link.
- Apparently, it is the official abbreviation. However, the conversion template has been tweaked. See Template talk:Convert#G-force for details. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:55, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- Never seen it converted into SI, either, as every aviation writer seems content to explain X multiples bodyweight as something every reader will intuitively understand.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:14, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- Rowland White offset his name with commas
- Link Vice admiral--Sturmvogel 66
(talk) 01:14, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Sturmvogel 66: Just a friendly reminder. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 21:06, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
- Not gonna support or oppose.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:12, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
-
- Excessive detail; aircraft serial numbers are entirely unnecessary.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:12, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
- This is understood, and neutral !votes are both acceptable and common. It is understood that there is more than one way to write an article, and that the task of building an encyclopaedia of military history is well beyond the ability of any of us (or, indeed, all of us). There will always be differences of opinion. Bearing in mind that the serial numbers were originally added by another editor and not myself, we have a difference of opinion here involving multiple editors, for which there is no consensus. My personal opinion is that a written compendium of knowledge demands a high degree of detail, and therefore have decided to WP:PRESERVE the serial numbers. This in no way means that I consider Sturmvogel 66's neutral position unreasonable. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:07, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
- Excessive detail; aircraft serial numbers are entirely unnecessary.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:12, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
-
Support by Nick-D edit
This article is in very good shape. I have the following comments:
- "At the time, the British defence planning was focused on the Cold War." - the implication of this could be made clearer: am I right in thinking that little to no preparations had been made to fight around the Falklands?
- It should be noted / made clearer that Black Buck 1 was the first significant offensive action made by British forces against the Argentine forces in the Falklands, and marked the start of a series of air attacks and air battles carried out that day (which I am absurdly slowly writing an article on... I might get a wriggle on now this article is in such good shape)
- Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:20, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
- Aside: Woodward's objective for the operations on 1 May was to begin the process of attriting the Argentinian air and naval forces by luring them to attack the British fleet That sounds like an incredibly reckless thing to do. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:20, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
- Indeed. The British tactics on 1 May were much more aggressive than those they used later in the campaign, and even then they regularly over-estimated their capabilities and under-estimated those of the Argentines (though the British willingness to accept heavy casualties is quite striking to modern attitudes). Nick-D (talk) 10:12, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
- Aside: Woodward's objective for the operations on 1 May was to begin the process of attriting the Argentinian air and naval forces by luring them to attack the British fleet That sounds like an incredibly reckless thing to do. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:20, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
- Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:20, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
- "The attack was delivered around 0700Z" - can a precise time be given here?
- When were the medals for Black Buck 1 awarded? During the war, or as part of the post-war honours?
- Am I correct in remembering that the Vulcans were dispatched back to the UK between each mission? (due to the shortage of ramp space at Wideawake Airport)
- The material on Black Buck Five could more strongly emphasise the importance of the Argentine radar: it was a very good piece of kit which the Argentines were using well. I presume that the Harriers didn't have any anti-radar missiles?
- The context for Black Buck Seven could be explained given its different targeting - presumably this was undertaken in support of the ground forces which were on the outskirts of Port Stanley (though it seems an almost absurdly inefficient way of doing so!)
- Nigel (Sharkey) Ward's views are given strong emphasis, but is he a qualified commentator here? From memory, some of his views have proved controversial, and the statement that the Sea Harriers could have done much more with the same amount of fuel seems a bit odd given that these operations didn't come at the expense of the fuel available to them.
- "In 1986, Operation Black Buck was referred to in an episode of the BBC sitcom Yes, Prime Minister" - this para needs a reference (from memory, the Yes Minister scripts were published)
Nick-D (talk) 04:42, 23 February 2020 (UTC) Support I think that my comments are met for A-class status. I'd suggest that a bit more work in 'deepening' the article is necessary ahead of a FAC though. Nick-D (talk) 10:12, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
- Do you have some suggestions here in addition to the points above? (About aircraft returning to the UK between each mission, the exact timing of Black Buck One and reasons for the switch in targeting) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:37, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
Support from AustralianRupert edit
Fascinating article, Hawkeye -- strangely enough, I remember the Yes, Minister episode from my childhood and a few years back, at an RSL meeting in Brisbane, met a retired RAF mechanic who serviced one of the aircraft that took part in the operation. I have a few minor comments/suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 06:08, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
- there are no dab links and the ext links all work (no action required)
- the opening sentence of the lead seems a bit complex, potentially it could be split
- The objectives of all missions were to attack Port Stanley Airport and its associated defences --> "The objective of all missions was to attack Port Stanley Airport and its associated defences"?
- None of the Vulcans at Waddington was fitted with --> "None of the Vulcans at Waddington were fitted with"?
- the following terms appear to be overlinked: British Army, Vickers VC10, Avro Vulcan, 801 Naval Air Squadron
- could have carried out 785 sorties that delivered --> "could have carried out 785 sorties that would have delivered..."?
- alleged that 'orchestrated attempts' were made by 'the RAF propaganda machine' after the --> double quote marks here?
- Yes, per MOS:QUOTEMARKS. Changed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:55, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
- the BBC sitcom Yes, Prime Minister. A British Army general --> italics for the show's name?
- Yes, per MOS:ITALICTITLE. Otalicised. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:55, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
- the table in the Summary section appears to be uncited
- would cause the Argentinians to --> "Argentineans"? (there are a few other examples of this throughout the article)
- and what was required for this mission was bombs that would penetrate into the ground --> "as the mission required bombs that would penetrate into the ground
- All points addressed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:55, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
- Excellent work, as always; added my support above now. Thanks for your efforts. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 06:20, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
CommentsSupport by PM
edit
Great article on an interesting operation, which seems like a huge waste of resources to ensure RAF got a guernsey in the war. I have a few comments:
- I've never seen the numero sign without a following period, especially when dealing with wing/squadron numbers. You use a period after the singular numero signs later, so should use a period with Nos. for consistency. There is also an example of No being used without a period
- In British English the full stop is omitted because it is not an abbreviation. So "No" and "Nos" are correct. Americans use the full stop on both because they don't understand the language. But on Wikipedia MOS:NUMERO says to include the full stop. Added a couple of missing full stops. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:29, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- move RAF in full to first mention in the body, and use the initialisation thereafter
- suggest saying that Ascension is near the Equator in the South Atlantic when first mentioned in the body
- "In March plans were set in motion" March 1982? So before the Argentines invaded? Was there a geo-political reason for this? Argentine threats or something? Seems incongruous as stated.
- Hmmm Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:29, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- This para needs reorganising, starting with the fact that the planners were doing regular reviews of the threats, and the RAF looked at missions to the Falklands, then mention the invasion etc. The way it is currently ordered doesn't work. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- Hmmm Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:29, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Sturm that the aircraft numbers in the prose are unnecessary detail, per criteria A2, affect readability and obscure the important facts. Nothing is lost if they are removed.
- It becomes treacherous in places without them. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:29, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- I think there are clear ways of explaining which aircraft is involved in a particular mission (where that is really necessary, in many places it isn't needed at all in order to tell the story) without the mass use of aircraft numbers. They clag up the article and interrupt the prose. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- It's not that I haven't considered this. In some places they can be omitted, in some the aircraft can be referred to generically, in some the name of the pilot can be substituted; that leaves us with things like the Black Buck Three section. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:55, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- While I think you could get away without them in Black Buck 3, I think all the unnecessary use should be omitted. There is certainly no need to list the numbers of all the aircraft involved. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:38, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- It's not that I haven't considered this. In some places they can be omitted, in some the aircraft can be referred to generically, in some the name of the pilot can be substituted; that leaves us with things like the Black Buck Three section. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:55, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- I think there are clear ways of explaining which aircraft is involved in a particular mission (where that is really necessary, in many places it isn't needed at all in order to tell the story) without the mass use of aircraft numbers. They clag up the article and interrupt the prose. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- It becomes treacherous in places without them. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:29, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- NATO in full at first mention
- AFAIK, it is Argentinians or Argentines, not Argentineans, and Argentinian or Argentine not Argentinean
- when the planning was being done, did they assess what the effect of a single crater in the airfield would be?
- why were the Yanks consulted about using Ascension for offensive purposes?
- "take out the airfield radars " is a bit colloquial
- "were forced to remain airborne" and presumably it could not dump the bombs into the sea due to their scarcity, and they had to burn through enough fuel so that it was light enough to land?
- "One bomb exploded on the runway and caused a large crater which proved difficult to repair" but it was back in action overnight?
- the Shrike image seems misplaced in the Black Buck One section given it was a bombing mission
- the Black Buck One awards para seems out of place, especially given Withers flew another mission which presumably contributed to his DFC. Suggest moving it to the Effect section.
- "to explode in mid-air" to "to air burst" and link
- deitalicise "The military effectiveness of Black Buck"
- "early flights were suspended" early flights? early morning flights? I assume because the Black Buck missions were presumably all timed to hit Stanley in the early morning?
- suggest "Ward dismissed as RAF propaganda the claim that the raids led to fear of attacks on the mainland:"
- "the Royal Navy
continuedattackinged Port Stanley" - perhaps add that Belgrano was a light cruiser and de Mayo an aircraft carrier
That's all I've got. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:47, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- OK, I fixed a couple of typos etc. Supporting, great job on this Hawkeye! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:30, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
Image review edit
All the images are PD except the aerial reconnaissance one which has an appropriate NFR. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:57, 26 March 2020 (UTC)