Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Battle of Sourton Down

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Hawkeye7 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 00:20, 28 December 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Battle of Sourton Down

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Harrias (talk)

The Battle of Sourton Down was a well-executed ambush by a small Parliamentarian force on a much larger Royalist one. It was another loss for Ralph Hopton, but one of his finest victories was to follow not too long after. The location of this battle is now a service station just off the A30, the main road in south-west England; one that I have stopped at many, many times, which was part of what caught my fancy about the battle. All comments gratefully received. Harrias ^talk 13:54, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Don't use fixed px size. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:27, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers, fixed using |upright=0.7. Harrias ^talk 07:53, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source review—pass

I'm a bit confused by the infobox citation to Hopton. In the text the same force information is cited to Barratt. Is the same information in both sources? If so, I would suggest citing Barratt.
Thanks Buidhe; I've finally addressed this. The information is mixed between both sources, and I've updated the referencing in the main body to reflect that. As the information is provided and cited in the body, I have removed the references from the infobox completely. Harrias ^talk 09:38, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Other than that, primary sources are used appropriately.
Other sources look OK.
No source checks done because nominator has a history of successful A-class nominations. b uidhe 16:58, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

I have made a couple of copy edits, which you will want to check.

I am not sure that "running" is encyclopedic. Although I struggle to suggest a better word.
- Changed to "ongoing". Harrias ^talk 14:06, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Optional: "as a Member of Parliament in the Long Parliament" Parliament twice in five w=words jars a little. Perhaps 'as a Member of the Long Parliament'?
- Merged. Harrias ^talk 14:06, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"From there Hopton and Hertford split up" Does this need the "From"?
- Removed. Harrias ^talk 14:06, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"Hertford took the infantry to Wales, while Hopton sailed with the dragoons" ... the infantry ... the dragoons ... This is the first mention of either. Could we have an introduction? (Had they come from York? Been recruited locally?)
- Most had been recruited locally from around Somerset, I'm just unsure how relevant to the article it is. Harrias ^talk 14:06, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Me neither. But the unexplained introduction of " ... the infantry ... the dragoons …" jars. (Quite a bit for me.)

Hmmm, how about something like "Hertford took the army's infantry to Wales, while Hopton sailed with their dragoons"? Harrias ^talk 09:55, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, good; that works.

" Although Hopton typically fancied himself" "typically"?
- I don't know. Removed. Harrias ^talk 14:06, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"the King shared the command;" → 'the King divided the command'. I honestly read that as the King being the co-commander.(!!) I also think that the semi colon should be a colon, with the subsequent commands separated by semi colons.
- Yup, done. Harrias ^talk 14:06, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Optional: "Hopton had removed the last Parliamentarian foothold in Cornwall" → 'Hopton had taken the last Parliamentarian outpost in Cornwall'.
"but the city was too strong, and Hopton's Cornish forces refused to cross the River Tamar" I submit that we don't know if "the city was too strong". The sentence also seems a little contradictory. Did the Cornishmen refuse to cross the river because (they believed) the city to be too strong? Or for some other reason? If the latter, then why mention the strength of the city? And if it is mentioned, it should, IMO, be its perceived strength.
- I need to come back to this one. Harrias ^talk 14:06, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - I have clarified this. Harrias ^talk 09:55, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good. Thanks.

"A truce was put in place in March" I don't know what your source says, but that suggests that it was imposed by an external authority. 'A truce was agreed in March'?
- Yup, changed. Harrias ^talk 14:06, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"no real initial attempt to chase Chudleigh's force" "chase" → 'pursue'?
- Changed. Harrias ^talk 14:06, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"News of the disarray reached the Royalists" You haven't previously mentioned any disarray, simply said that the army split up.
- Removed "the". Harrias ^talk 14:06, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How about 'Reports of Parliamentarian disarray reached ... '?

Weeell. OK.

Link infantry at first mention.
- Done. Harrias ^talk 15:42, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"where he found a valley backed by hills sufficient to avoid his army being silhouetted against the horizon" I had to think about what you meant by this. Perhaps "sufficient" → 'high enough'. Or just 'where he found a valley situated such that his army would not be silhouetted against the horizon' or similar?
- Yes, changed to "high enough". Harrias ^talk 09:55, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"the Lord Mohun" "the"?
- Per Forms of address in the United Kingdom#Peers, peeresses and non-peerage. Harrias ^talk 14:20, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure that "spooked" is encyclopedic. Although it does seem appropriate.
- Hmm. Neither Cambridge nor Collins list the verb as informal, although Collins does note that it is mainly used in AmEng. "spooked" seems the most appropriate word; the closest alternative I'm happy with would be "unnerved"? Harrias ^talk 14:20, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Probably just me.

"Chudleigh avoided engaging the encamped position" I am not sure that I would describe the position as "encamped".

You're right. Tweaked to "fortified position", although this still seems to oversell it. Harrias ^talk 09:55, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Optional: Maybe just 'this position'?.

"he awaited reinforcements from his infantry in Okehampton" Just checking that this is correct and that you don't mean 'he awaited the reinforcement of his infantry from Okehampton'?
- Can you clarify the difference? Harrias ^talk 14:20, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The first means some of the infantry; the second all of them.

Thanks, changed to the latter. Harrias ^talk 09:55, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"much intelligence about the scale of the enemy they had faced" To my eye doesn't quite work. You may disagree. Perhaps 'much intelligence about the size of the enemy force they had faced'?
- That's an improvement, changed. Harrias ^talk 15:42, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"and the cover of darkness" Is "cover of" necessary?
- No, removed. Harrias ^talk 15:42, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"With that in mind, along with their losses, they opted to hold their position until daybreak, when they retreated first to Bridestowe, a village about two miles (3.2 km) south-west of Sourton Down, and then later that day back to Launceston" An over ambitious sentence. Break it up perhaps?
- I've split it, though with little other change; do you reckon it needs more? Harrias ^talk 15:42, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Looks fine to me.

"The routed Royalists had left behind" Suggest deleting "had".
- Yes, removed. Harrias ^talk 15:42, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"and managed to round up some of the deserters during his return" "the deserters"?
- I've never liked this sentence. How about "..and managed to round up some of the routed men during his return." Harrias ^talk 15:42, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Better.

"securing Royalist control of Cornwall" doesn't really work in the context of the sentence and is chronologically odd, coming before the earlier "decimating the Parliamentarians' army"> Suggest rewriting, possibly as two sentences.
- Reworked this. Harrias ^talk 09:55, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"subsequently able to push up into Somerset" Delete "up".
- Deleted. Harrias ^talk 15:42, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"The Parliamentarians had emphasised their victory" Suggest deleting "had".
- Deleted. Harrias ^talk 15:42, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Footnote: "were outnumbered by more than two-to-one" Delete "by".
- Deleted. Harrias ^talk 15:42, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Part of the lead reads "The defeat was humiliating for Hopton." I don't doubt it, but this doesn't seem to be mentioned in the main article.
- Added this into the Aftermath section. Harrias ^talk 09:55, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's all from me. Mostly minor niggles or optional suggestions. A fine article: a reader can feel the confusion and panic. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:13, 25 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:15, 25 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild: I've finally mopped up the outstanding points, and am looking forward to the "more" which follows. Harrias ^talk 09:55, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Some responses to your responses above. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:00, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work, as always. One entirely optional and very minor suggestion above. A cracking article. Happy to support. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:50, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA-5

Battle of Sourton Down was a successful Parliamentarian ambush --> "The Battle of Sourton Down was a successful Parliamentarian ambush"
- Yes, done. Harrias ^talk 12:43, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Parliamentarian commander, Major General James Chudleigh No hyphen here in the rank? Because some sources include the rank with a hyphen.
- I think it is largely a matter of preference, but you are right that the hyphenated form is more tradition for the period being covered, so it is no bother to change it. Done. Harrias ^talk 12:43, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Link Oxford.
- Linked. Harrias ^talk 12:43, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Link Cornish.
- Linked. Harrias ^talk 12:43, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Link oxen.
- Linked. Harrias ^talk 12:43, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
and he appointed Chudleigh as his deputy soon after.[9][8] Re-order the refs here.
- Done. Harrias ^talk 12:43, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
the ruin of the whole Kingdom".[12][11] Same as above.
- Done. Harrias ^talk 12:43, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
musketeers, and used their cannons to attack them --> "musketeers, and used their cannon to attack them" Dictionaries say the plural word of cannon is manly without s.
- That's an archaic formation, cannons with an 's' is the preferred plural. Harrias ^talk 12:43, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe change the "c" in the infobox with a circa template?
- Done. Harrias ^talk 12:43, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 12:11, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@CPA-5: Thanks for the review. Harrias ^talk 12:43, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good to go to me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 15:57, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.