Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/13th Light Tank Brigade

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article promoted by Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 20:20, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

13th Light Tank Brigade

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Kges1901 (talk)

13th Light Tank Brigade (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

After coming back from a long wikibreak, I present this article about a Soviet tank unit during the Winter War. Surprisingly, thanks to two detailed histories of Soviet armor during the war, I was able to write a GA-length article, and I'd like to improve it further. Kges1901 (talk) 00:48, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

CommentSupport by PM

Welcome back, comrade! I'll take a look at this, probably in a few bites. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:22, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Article title

• Given the fairly low ordinal and lack of obvious Soviet nomenclature, I think it would be appropriate to preemptively disambiguate this article as (Soviet Union). There certainly is potential for confusion with the Dutch 13th Light Armoured Brigade, and it is probably not the only one with a very similar name when translated into English.

• Can be moved pre-emptively after ACR.

Lead

• suggest linking brigade

• Done

• a bit more context for the para beginning "An ambitious plan..." is needed. ie "In 1939, the Soviet Union demanded that Finland..., and when the Finns refused, decided to invade..."

• Done

More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:37, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Prewar period

• what rank was Skulachenko?

• None, because before November 1935 the Soviets did not have traditional ranks, with commanders referred to by their position.

• suggest reversing "One of the original two" to "One of the two original"

• Done

• perhaps a sentence explaining the origin of the Uritsky honorific? Also, should the bolded alt title in the lead be "31st Uritsky Mechanized Brigade"?

• Done

• "sent to Spain" is a bit easter-eggy. Could you just expand that to state that he was sent to Spain to assist the Republicans side in the Spanish Civil War (assuming that was what he was doing)?

• Done

• suggest "which also claimed six other brigade officers, including the commissar and chief of engineers."

• Done

• Given the earlier mention of Gorev, suggest "Baranov, the final brigade commander, was another of the Soviet tankers who had been sent to Spain to support the Republicans, among them personnel from the 31st Brigade."

• Done

• link Military doctrine

• Done

• where is Porkhov?

• Done

• link Estonia and Latvia (sadly few will know of them)

• Done

More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:11, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Winter War

• suggest "When the war began"→"When the invasion began", seems a bit euphemistic at present

• Done

• should the 1st Light Tank Brigade and the 15th Motor Rifle and Machine Gun Brigade be redlinked?

• Probably going to need to write up some articles first. This is the only article on a pre-1941 Soviet tank brigade.

• delete "corps'" as you've already explained it was part of the corps

• Done

• what size settlements were Riikoli, Suupork, Rautu, Suokas, Peinola, Lähde? villages/towns?

• Clarified. Some of these may not exist anymore, so it's hard to find out where they actually are.

• "the 13th Tank Battalion, 205th Reconnaissance Battalion, and 158th Sapper Battalion" but was the latter attached from corps or higher troops, or is this actually the 158th Motorized Machine Gun Battalion?

• Good catch, it was the 158th. The acronyms are similar in Russian.

• link anti-tank gun and land mine

• Done

• suggest "The 1st and 13th Light Tank Brigades" for clarity

• Done

• in which part of Karelia was independent massed tank operations impossible? It is a big region.

• The source says the Karelian Isthmus. This was the reason why the Soviets eliminated their tank corps headquarters soon afterwards (along with failures during the Soviet invasion of Poland).

• the Tali station, railway? Same for Kämärä

• Done

• suggest "A detachment from the battalion" to avoid repetition of 205th Reconnaissance Battalion

• Done

More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:49, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

• @Peacemaker67: Addressed first series of comments. Kges1901 (talk) 17:31, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

• so, was the 9th Separate Tank Battalion different from the 9th Tank Battalion? If so, from what formation was it detached? If not, suggest using the same unit title throughout to avoid confusion. In general, I found myself having to look earlier in the article to remind myself what type of unit the 205th or various other battalions were, so just using the ordinal can be confusing to the general reader who isn't familiar with the units concerned.

• Added full unit names where necessary, and consistency

• In a similar vein, "When the T-28 medium tanks of the 20th Tank Brigade"

• Done

• "under direct army control" meaning 7th Army? or higher?

• Clarified

• Boboshino or Bobochino?

• Corrected

• dugouts? Meaning what exactly? Not something with overhead protection, presumably? A depression with banks on three sides?

• The Russian word translates as simply dugout (for example this military dictionary. That's all Kolomiets describes them as, aside from their purpose.

• suggest "on 14 February, three mobile groups were created in the 7th Army, which included infantry riding on the tanks. They were inserted..."

• Done

• do you mean "During this and subsequent operations"?

• Good catch.

• just in a general sense, I wonder about the point of view from which the almost entirely Soviet or Russian sources are coming in the Winter War section. Soviet offensive failures seem to be categorised mostly as due to Soviet infantry refusing to do things, rather than Finnish resistance, and the Soviets only capture objectives quickly after "stubborn Finnish defence". This type of language is similar to the "heroic" themes used in some German accounts of their operations in WWII, and I wonder if Finnish accounts of this fighting, and more of a sense of what the Finns had in terms of fighting power in this sector would be valuable in balancing the narrative?

Either way, that's it for me. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:00, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

• It is true that Soviet unit commanders often blamed their failures on adjacent units not advancing fast enough because commanders needed an excuse to justify not accomplishing objectives - typically Soviet unit reports and war diaries use either blame neighboring units or enemy fire for their failures. But in this case, I don't think it glorifies the Soviets to mention their failure to establish effective tank-infantry cooperation, which was a widespread problem judging by Irincheev's account, and Soviet offensive efforts often seem bungled and embarrassingly ineffective. Irincheev incorporates Finnish accounts, and includes negative information on Soviet forces, so his account is objective, but doesn't cover all the actions of the 13th Light Tank Brigade. Kolomiets, who covers the actions of the brigade more thoroughly, also includes negative information, but he didn't use Finnish sources in the same detail as Irincheev did. Having read Soviet propaganda accounts of the Winter War the tone used by Kolomiets and Irincheev is pretty objective. As for the stubborn (also can be translated as sustained) resistance phrasing, this tends to be used in Soviet accounts but upon further reflection sounds like a truism (although "overcoming stiff resistance" is also a phrase one encounters in English-language military history). I've looked through Raunio and Kilin but there isn't much coverage of the battles northeast of Vyborg in the last days of the war. I've added what I could on the Finnish units opposing them. Kges1901 (talk) 12:41, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

• OK, accept that at this at ACR. Supporting. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:14, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Image review - pass

• File:T-26 in Kirovsk.JPG - Wikipedian created PD - I think this is okay.
• File:Winterwar-december1939-karelianisthmus.png, File:Karelian Isthmus 13 March 1940.png - Wikipedian created PD - okay.
• File:Lahde battle.png - Wikipedian created CC 3.0 - okay.
• File:BT-5 at Lemetti, 1940 SA-kuva 4767.jpg, File:Kämärä and Leipäsuo area before 1939 topo map.png- PD in Finland - needs a URAA tag

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:35, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Source review

• http://mechcorps.ru is by Yevgeny Drig, the expert, so okay.

• Sources are of high quality and nicely formatted.

• fn 28 seems to overlap fn 29

• Done. --Kges1901 (talk) 16:16, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

• Spot checks not done.

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:35, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Comments Support by Zawed

Lead

• Reads OK to me

Prewar period

• ...from the 32nd Volodarsky Rifle Regiment of the 11th Rifle Division.: the placement of this phrase doesn't seem right. To me it feels like the info should be imparted earlier. E.g. "The 31st Mechanized Brigade was formed out of the 11th Rifle Division's 32nd Volodarsky Rifle Regiment between May and September 1932..."

• Done

• Rank for Alexey Skulachenko? They are given for the subsequent commanders in the next paragraph

• The Red Army didn't have traditional ranks at the time.

• Suggest English translation for Kombrig in brackets?

• Done

• support the Spanish Republican Army during their civil war, among them personnel from the 31st Brigade.: dupe links here; I also suggest deleting "during their civil war" as that exact phrase is used earlier in this paragraph and it establishes that there was a civil war going on

• Done

• were assigned to the 8th Army of the district: is this the Leningrad Military District or another district?

• Done

• in late September and by 27 September concentrated on the Estonian border: suggest deleting "late" as to me 27 September is late September. Also should a "was" be added ahead of "concentrated"?

• Done

Winter War

• ...faced with the demands to cede territory...: don't think the "the" should be there

• Done

December battles and interlude

• ...after an artillery preparation on the next day and approached Suurporkku,...: this sentence needs looking at; something isn't right with the "on the next day and"? Maybe the "and" should be moved to precede "on"?

• Reordered

• western part of the Isthmus: don't think Isthmus should be capitalised unless the full name of Karelian Isthmus is used, should just be isthmus otherwise. Note that this applies to the instance of its usage in the first paragraph of the Winter War section

• Done

• Suggest English translation for Komdiv in brackets?

Interlude

• Reads OK

Breakthrough of the Mannerheim Line

• Reads OK

Advance on Vyborg

• 353 of its personnel were decorated...: shouldn't start a sentence with a number

• Done

Invasion of Estonia and reorganization

• Dupe link on Prokofy Romanenko

• Done

• 1st Mechanized Corps commander: as above, shouldn't start a sentence with a number

• Done

• The deadline for the formation of the corps was extended to 31 July on 23 June.: suggest rewriting this sentence so the two dates are not recited in close succession

• Done

That's my comments done. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 09:08, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

@Zawed: Prepared to support the nomination? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:57, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I have added my support. Zawed (talk) 08:00, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Support from Gog the Mild

I'll have a look at this. Nudge me if I don't get to it. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:55, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

• I would run the single-sentence opening paragraph into the following one.

• Done

• An image is captioned "The Summa breakthrough", but the text suggests there wasn't one and the lead explicitly states that there wasn't.

• Done

• "was formed from of the 11th Rifle". A typo?

• Done

• Link commissar.

• Done

• "Brigade commander". Either lower case b or upper case C. Similarly later with "Division commander".

• Done

• "Pyotr Kotov commanded the brigade until early 1938". Is it known when he took command?

• Clarified. August 1937.

• "having to overcome the strong Finnish anti-tank defenses". Did the 13th have to overcome them, or the infantry they were advancing behind?

• The tank units

• "by advancing on the railway stations of Lähde and Kämärä and capturing the Tali railway station." What is the difference between advancing on and capturing?

• direction of the unit's advance vs objectives

Suggest "on" → 'towards' then.

• "the 9th Tank Battalion with three flamethrower tanks". With three flamethrower tanks attached; including three flamethrower tanks; or was that the full strength of the battalion?

• Attached

• While "tankist" is a word, consider using the (much) more common 'tanker'.

• Done

• "and 153 the Medals "For Courage" and "For Battle Merit"." All 153 received both medals? Or should "and" be 'or'?

• Changed to or

That's all I have. What a great unit history. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

A further suggestion above, but this is well over the ACR threshold. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:33, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.