Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 May 13

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May 13

Toilet Tissue.

It occurred to me today whilst sitting on the throne, and contemplating that the job wasn't done until the paperwork was completed, that, in 60+ years of carrying out this regular and very necessary winding-up procedure, NEVER, and I truly do mean NEVER, have I come across a toilet roll, whether old-fashioned hard and shiny paper, or smooth and soft, and sometimes even dermatogically treated paper, that showed evidence of having broken during manufacture, and been repaired, part way through the roll. Amazing. Wings fall off aeroplanes; propellors fall of ships; computer systems crash dramatically; wheels come adrift from cars; governments collapse. But seemingly, toilet rolls do not separate mid way through the roll during manufacture. Oh yes, I can easily tear across a single sheet without the tear being across the perforations, which proves their vulnerability. But why doesn't this appear to happen in fact, during manufacture. Surely, this can not be down to brilliant and infallible production processes? So that leaves only the possibility that any "broken rolls" are discarded. So come on Wikipedians - what is the answer to this most "pressing" question? 92.30.2.148 (talk) 00:26, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

As manufacturers of tons of tinted toilet tissue we suggest you contact our sole distributors. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 00:36, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

The Toilet paper article does not seem to discuss manufacturing details, but my guess would be that it's produced in long rolls that are then sliced. Kinda like sushi. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:38, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I imagine the simple answer is that any "broken" rolls are discarded, rather then "repaired".. Vespine (talk) 01:02, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

That's a feature in the manufacturing industry called "Quality Control". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:08, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

This page says that, as Bugs guessed, it is produced as a "paper log" and then cut. Buddy431 (talk) 01:24, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

In addition to which, I'm guessing they know precisely how much to produce for a given roll or set of rolls and/or if any set of rolls comes up "short", they would likely recycle it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:42, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Masking tape, by the way, is also produced in I think 48 inch length, and then sliced to desired widths. Bus stop (talk) 01:55, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

That stands to reason. Just don't get them mixed up. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:14, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, you could do worse. --Anonymous, 04:06 UTC, May 13, 2010.

Where in the manufacture of toilet paper do you imagine, 92, that the paper would be subjected to strong shearing forces? Because I just don't see it. Paper is dried, paper is rolled, paper is distributed. No tears because it is rolled in a normal, predictable, sensible manner. If ever there was a problem, the machinery would be re-built until the rolls were all coming out perfectly. Vranak (talk) 04:53, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

The pulp is used to make paper stock. The paper stock is sprayed between moving mesh screens, producing the rudimentary sheet of matted fiber. I am getting that from the link above (provided by Buddy431), on the paper making process. I would guess that the process uses Machine vision to detect gaps in the newly formed paper. Also the processes of turning wood pulp into the raw material for the toilet paper are probably highly controlled by the machinery involved to produce a very consistent and uniform raw material in the form of paper pulp. The article mentions for instance that the "cooking" of the paper stock can take 3 hours. Bus stop (talk) 14:47, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Church roof green

Why are the decorative trimmings and edges and crosses on some churches green in stark contrast to the black/brown/gray roofing? Is it the same green effect that has occurred with the Statue of Liberty? DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 05:40, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Verdigris. Ghmyrtle (talk) 06:46, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not totally sure this is what the OP is asking about, but note the green roof on the Chartres Cathedral:

←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:59, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

The question is very clear. The green colouration of many roofs of cathedrals and other old buildings is caused by the action of the air on the metal used in the construction. The resulting patina is usually (but not exclusively) copper carbonate and is called verdigris, indeed it is exactly what has happened to the Statue of Liberty. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 07:24, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Sometimes they clean that stuff off. The Centre Block of the Canadian Parliament buildings always had green roofs, that was just how they looked, it seemed natural and proper...but they recently cleaned it up and now it's copper again. It just looks wrong! Adam Bishop (talk) 07:28, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps they replaced the roof with new copper plates? There seems to be no point in cleaning it off, as it will reappear within a very short time anyway. --Saddhiyama (talk) 09:38, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

wikipedia on disc

hi i was wondering if there was a way to get wikipedia on disc. for example one day every year all of the information in the site is put onto a series of discs and between these discs is all the information up to that day.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.238.84.204 (talk) 06:41, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

No e-mail addresses, please. There was a similar question awhile back on one of these ref desks, about downloading wikipedia. It's huge, to put it mildly. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:56, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

You might be interested to read Wikipedia:Database download.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:26, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

There have also been portions of Wikipedia released on CD: see Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team. It appears that the current release version is Wikipedia:Version 0.7. which contains about 30,000 articles. That page is shockingly unclear on how to actually obtain your version 0.7 CD, though... Buddy431 (talk) 15:33, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Version 0.7 is 2.38GB and is available here. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:57, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

No intention on being nosy (okay, not true), but I am very curious. Why would anyone want a fixed copy of wikipedia? Aside from being an insanely large file (I just found that it might be well over 5 TB), the whole point is the constant updating. Aaronite (talk) 16:51, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

You could probably cut that down to 1TB if you don't mind cutting the Japanese train stations, the Pokemon characters, and the large selection of articles about individual elementary schools. Googlemeister (talk) 20:15, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Offline access, read Wikipedia when you're in the middle of the Canadian arctic wilderness, or, of course, if you're a backward-moving time traveler. Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:56, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Or if you're blind--an edition of Wikipedia in Braille has been discussed. Keepscases (talk) 18:41, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Offline access is a big deal. Not everyone has always-on internet connections. A surprising number of people are still using dial-up on a line also used for voice. APL (talk) 20:50, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

If you strip out all of the images, sounds and video, all of the talk pages, user pages, guidelines, jokes, keep only the English language pages - and dispose of all of the editing history...then (with some agressive text-compression) the result would just about fit onto a single DVD-ROM...although that probably won't be true in a year or two, but a Blu-Ray disk could probably still handle it. There is actually a hardware gadget you can buy for about $100 that has a little screen and the whole of English Wikipedia (minus pictures, etc, etc) can be called up from it's internal flash memory. You can even have it upgraded once a year with a new SD-card for some small amount of money. However, putting the WHOLE of Wikipedia onto optical disks would require something in the region of 1,000 DVD-ROMs...which pretty much makes the whole thing impractical. You could probably just about fit it all onto one of the larger hard drives. Downloading it would take a VERY long time on most network connections - and it would keep changing while you were downloading it, so you might well end up with something broken at the end of all that work! SteveBaker (talk) 21:23, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm reminded of that woman I referred to recently. The one who said "Oh yes, the internet, I've heard of that. I must download it and print it out one weekend". Duh! -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 00:54, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

You know, that's the third time I've seen that joke on the Ref Desk. Vimescarrot (talk) 06:00, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

OK, I've updated the Version 0.7 site. The Version 0.7 collection can be downloaded (free) as a Kiwix version, with a "howto" available. It is also available as a Okawix version.

Regarding the remarks about offline releases - take a look at things like this picture (Zambia) and this blog post (South Africa) (both using 0.7). Wikipedia is about helping knowledge with the whole world, and that's what these offline releases are for. Walkerma (talk) 03:03, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Fire engine red leather

I'm curious if anyone knows the story or history of fire engine red leather. You don't really see it around much anymore, but I remember seeing it all over the place on the west coast of the U.S. in the 1970s. Was it an even older style hankering back to an even earlier fashion? (Victorian era fashion was popular in the 1960s.) For an example of what I'm talking about, there's a famous scene from the film The Matrix that can be viewed here. Please note the two red chairs. Does this style have a name or come from a certain period? Bonus points for anyone who can also identify the television in this scene, which appears to come from the 1950s. Viriditas (talk) 08:53, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about "fire engine red leather", but I would call those Chesterfield chairs - typified by a style of upholstery using buttoned leather (see List of chairs#C, the last red link in "C", and these images). The TV is a Radiola Deep Image (which can clearly be seen in the older version of the image). Astronaut (talk) 10:07, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! Viriditas (talk) 11:49, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Reglazing glasses

Can any frame be reglazed? Even an acetate frame?--Quest09 (talk) 12:53, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Metal ones certainly can. This very afternoon we took my partner's specs to the optician where the technician fitted the pre-ordered lenses while we waited, took about 20 minutes. I guess the problem (if there is a problem) with acetate frames is loosening and tightening them. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 14:52, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Acetate frames have to be heated, usually with a warm air blower, to expand and loosen them so that old lenses can be removed and new ones fitted. With age the acetate apparently becomes less plastic (in the physical sense), so opticians are reluctant to try with old frames in case they break, or so they've said when I've asked for new lenses to be fitted to my existing frames. I've just has a lens refitted in an older backup pair of glasses (having broken a hinge on my latest pair) after it popped out while being washed (in warm water and with liquid soap), and it's still sufficiently loose in the frame that I'm thinking of applying some superglue.

Another problem is that fashions change so fast that it may become difficult to source new lenses of the right size and shape for older frames - I can no longer get new frames and lenses as large as I would prefer, (the 'Harry Potter factor' seems to have shifted the whole size range downwards) and presumably the lens manufacturers have constraints on what they're prepared to supply other than when money is no object at all. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 15:18, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Someone somewhere makes flat spectacle lenses with no optical function for this fictional character. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:35, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

If you can find a source for the frames, any optician should be able to provide flat ('nonprescription', or 'plano') lenses. People purchase glasses with nonprescription lenses all the time — sometimes for fashion, sometimes as protective eyewear, sometimes just because they only need correction in one eye. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:31, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Indeed a number of people who get LASIK or other forms of refractive surgery choose to wear glasses for at least part of their everyday life afterwards perhaps because people don't recognise them without them or they feel like they don't look themselves without them. Probably particularly common among TV/movie stars and stage performers who get the surgery after they've established recognition. E.g. [1]. I believe Raybon Kan is another example although couldn't find a ref. Nil Einne (talk) 16:53, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

According to our article, "evidence is weaker for its effectiveness in severe short-sightedness and long-sightedness." And from what I've heard (don't know, I have perfect vision much to the annoyance of my spectacled wife), LASIK does not correct both near and far sightedness in the same patient. Something about the patient having to choose which they'd like to correct. Dismas|^(talk) 19:26, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes there are undoutedly still people who require correction of some sort after surgery*, however there are also a number of people who do choose non presciption glasses. *although personally having far sightness I don't know if I'd bother if there wasn't a resonable chance I wouldn't need glasses again when I didn't want them or at least I would expect my vision improved enough to make a difference in how I live, e.g. if my vision is good enough that I can do without in some circumstances or like in the case you mentioned if I were to have both near and far sightness Nil Einne (talk) 11:09, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

In the early years of The Adventures of Superman TV series, "Clark Kent" (George Reeves) wore horn-rimmed glasses with no lenses at all, and hence no problem of studio lights reflecting off them. By the latter part of the series, the glasses had lenses (and occasional studio lights glare) and George could sometimes be seen squinting while in his Superman costume, and not just when he was using X-ray vision. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:57, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Dr. Gordon Brown MP PC - remuneration

It seems from local news reports that Dr./Mr. Brown, the recently resigned UK Prime Minister intends holding on to his Parliamentary Seat at Westminster and continue to represent his constituency of Kirkaldy et al in Scotland where he has an incredibly large majority, and good for him I say. But what will be his remuneration package - in total? He will obviously be paid the going rate for a constituency MP, plus any legitimate expenses he is entitled to claim that allow him to perform his duties effectively. But will he also receive a pension or other compensation package following his resignation as Prime Minister? Or does that latter element have to wait until his ultimate departure from Westminster, either as a result of resignation as an MP, defeat in a future election, or deselection by his local Labour Party Committee? 92.30.86.60 (talk) 19:44, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

This article seems to cover the pension issue. He is apparently entitled to half his £194,250 salary, index-linked against inflation for the rest of his life. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:08, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

And good for him I say! Caesar's Daddy (talk) 05:53, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I feel sorry for Gordon - perhaps the only Chancellor who had a PhD in economics so actually knew what he was doing, and he did appear to actively manage to avoid the banking crisis melt-down. He was sober in character and not a salesman, market trader, crowd-pleaser, or spiv like other more recent PM. It a pity Labour favoured ID cards as it stopped me and others voting for them. 78.149.199.79 (talk) 09:44, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Brown's PhD is in history, not economics. You may be thinking of Vince Cable. Hut 8.5 18:36, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Ooh, I was conned! 78.147.140.229 (talk) 12:45, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

He also gets £90k per year, unconditionally, for life, as a former Prime Minister (the "Public Duty Costs Allowance") ╟─TreasuryTag►directorate─╢ 10:44, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

What does the "PC" stand for? 78.147.140.229 (talk) 12:45, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Privy Councillor. He would have been appointed to Her Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council on becoming the leader of his Party and/or Prime Minister, and will retain the appointment for life. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 20:21, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Billie Anthony was my mother my fathers id is unknown

Is it possible that I may find the identity of my father. My mother was Billie Anthony/ singer she is listed in Wikipedia. I was never told the identity of my father, only a name that doesnt match any searches- Barry Dealthweight, unsure of spelling. Is there anyway anyone could help. I have no family known to me. Jessica68lvy (talk) 21:48, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article about Billie Anthony mentions her daughter Jessica born in 1968. This seems to be after Billie's divorce and career in theater but she may have kept contact with friends from that business. Her biographer Gordon Turner hints vaguely about "attempts to lure her up the aisle" around that time so have you asked him? On a hunch I looked in Google for names that sound like Barry Dealthweight such as "Barry Braithwaite" of whom there are a lot. You need to add more information to focus your search, such as likely age, location(s), your mother's habits and features you have inherited. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:27, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

The name 'Delthwaite' seems to exist - could that be it? --ColinFine (talk) 23:30, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Your birth certificate might have your father's name, but it might not. It is definitely worth checking though. Astronaut (talk) 13:40, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

A 'Google Earth' Globe

How feasible would it be to create a traditional Globe that is based on touch-screen LCDs and uses google-earth? That is - you get to do 'gestures' like the pinching/expanding that you get on say iPhone. My expectation is that there are a number of things to overcome...1) Getting a touch-screen LCD that is relatively 'round', particularly trying to minimize/remove seams that you'd get from joining multiple small flat screens to make a curve. 2) Producing some sort of software that could handle 'zooming' in in a way that worked well - i'd want the globe to be 'like a globe' (that is zoomed out to see the whole countries) everywhere but where I was zooming, and then some sort of 'fading' or something clever so that it kind 'worked' for being zoomed in. Anyhoo the nub of my question is...is it even do-able? (And if it's already been done a link to where one could get one would be heroic!). ny156uk (talk) 21:51, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

No idea but it would be on my amazon wish list instantly!Gazhiley (talk) 22:08, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

For the display, it seems organic LEDs can me made flexible, so that's a possibility for your display; failing that several projectors inside the globe projecting onto the screen (with appropriate software to deform the picture accordingly) might work. The super-fisheye effect you talk about sounds like hyperbolic geometry, something like this. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 22:17, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

The Museum of Flight has a globe with interior projectors, and a console surrounding it; you can press the Jupiter button and Jupiter appears, rotating; press Neptune and Neptune appears; etc. You don't get to touch the globe itself. Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:24, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

• If you had a globe then you would want its size to vary as you zoom in and out. You could obviously chnage what the data shown was - add / remove features, show map/satellite etc. But it would be very low resolution unless you had an enormous globe. -- SGBailey (talk) 22:28, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

A 3D display of the present Google Earth views is probably the next step. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:57, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

It would look really weird if the globe was zoomed in very close. The curvature would distort the image and make it next to useless. Aaronite (talk) 23:39, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Right, there would have to be a way to scale the curvature of your globe as you changed zoom levels, or a small town might appear to circle the globe. Googlemeister (talk) 18:26, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

As the OP i'd expect that the software would find a 'good' way of making the 'zooming' work - my expectation would be that as you zoom a 'section' of the globe zooms, but that say 90% of the space is left at 'standard' zoom. There'd need to be a 'fade' type thing (as per the 'super fish eye' mentioned above) but not sure why it wouldn't be do-able perspective-wise (it'd just be a case of figuring out what 'worked' as an experience), sounds like maybe longer-term there'll be the relavent materials to make one (i'm not discounting the huge software obstacles just think they're less of an issue). ny156uk (talk) 23:22, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

theocracy

i notice under countries listed as theocracies which is define as: a form of government in which god or diety is recognized as the states supreme or civil ruler

why is isreal not included as a theocracy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.2.222.76 (talk) 23:37, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Because it's not. It's a democracy. The government is elected. Check out State religion. Aaronite (talk) 23:42, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Technically, you can have a democratic theocracy. The Vatican City elects their pope. Googlemeister (talk) 16:14, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

The College of Cardinals elects the Pope. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:08, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

... which makes the Vatican City an undemocratic theocracy. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:32, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Precisely. Although one could argue that it's the Pope, not God, who rules Vatican City. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:40, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Even more importantly, see Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty, which is the "bill of rights" for the nation of Israel. It guarantees freedom of worship and of conscience for all Israeli citizens and residents. --Jayron32 01:38, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Which is all very well, just so long as you're not a Muslim wanting to use the mosque in Beersheba. DuncanHill (talk) 10:39, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

What's the deal with Baroness Warsi?

I have been reading the Baroness Warsi article, but I can't figure out how she has managed to become a powerful Tory figure – co-chair of the Conservative Party and Minister without Portfolio.

A brief summary of the background, from our article: Born to non-connected parents who dragged themselves up by bootstraps, law degree from second tier university, work as political flunky for parliamentarian and with NGOs/foreign govts, failed candidate for the House of Commons.

Then it gets interesting – she is made special advisor to Howard, then appointed by Cameron as Vice-Chair of the party, a shadow minister and a life peer, before this week's appointments.

I can't account for her high standing, but here are some possibilities:
1)She is a very capable political operator (or has good insight into policy), and so despite electoral failure/stature gets appointed to high-profile positions, à la Peter Mandelson.
2)As a British Muslim woman and self-described "northern, working-class-roots mum" who can hold her own in debates, she is an appealing figure for a party with an image problem as dominated by southern establishment white males.
3)She has some connections/achievements our article does not get into.
4)These positions don't actually mean very much, and are sinecures/status symbols.
5)????
Can anyone point me to a good explanation of the rise of Warsi or account for it themselves? Thanks, 86.41.61.203 (talk) 23:53, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Mainly 2 with a little bit of 1 from what I've seen of her over the years. Her unfortunate attitude to gay people makes her appeal to the nasty wing of the party, but being Asian appeals to the not-rabid wing & being the daughter of a multi-millionaire appeals to the greedy wing. DuncanHill (talk) 00:02, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Lawyer. Leeds uni is Russell Group so 1st rather than 2nd tier by one definition. Muslim woman. Keen Tory since leaving uni. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:36, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

But as a Cabinet Member, she can also expect to be appointed as a Privy Counsellor (PC), which would require her to "Kiss Hands" (acknowledge the supremacy of the Queen as Monarch - who is also the Supreme Governor of The Church of England), and swear the Privy Council Oath of Allegiance. As a Muslim, can she, and will she be prepared, to do that? 92.30.74.161 (talk) 10:29, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Have you any reason, other than racism, xenophobia and fear of the other to think that Muslims refuse to swear oaths of loyalty to the Queen? (Apart from anything, all members of either house of Parliament have to confirm their loyalty to Her, which means that Sayeeda Warsi has already done so, as did Shahid Malik, Sadiq Khan and countless others.) ╟─TreasuryTag►quaestor─╢ 16:20, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Note to above comment - I see that she has already appended the letters PC after her name on her Wiki article so I must presume that she has kissed hands and also taken the oath. Good for her. 92.30.74.161 (talk) 12:03, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

An off-topic diversion redacted. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:25, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Duncan and Judith. Duncan, how long has she been on your radar (I'm assuming you're a civilian not a politico)? Judith, aren't there a lot of people who would fit that description but have not approached Warsi's success? 86.41.61.203 (talk) 17:36, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Been aware of her since the 2005 election. She does appear to have "risen without trace". DuncanHill (talk) 17:40, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Much like Catherine Ashton. Kittybrewster ☎ 18:36, 15 May 2010 (UTC)