Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007 October 18

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October 18

Potency of morphine

Suppose someone if torturing you by slowly manipulating and cutting your legs into pieces, burning you, and inflicting as much pain as possible, all the while you are awake and do not go into shock. If you were to be injected by a sufficient dosage of morphine, would all the pain go away? Thanks. Acceptable 01:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but I do know that some things are resistant to morphine, generally toxins. Platypus venom is one example. It seems like a sufficient amount of pain and discomfort could override the drug, although it would take a lot. --Masamage ♫ 02:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Burning you could take the lot of pain you are looking for. In which case taking a higher dosage would probably do the trick. Actually, take a high enough dosage and you'll never feel pain again. :) I wonder, though, if the painkilling effect of heroin would keep you from fainting - is that more a mental or more a physical reaction? I am now picturing Acceptable going "Haha, look at that that - my hand is in flames! Hilarious!". :) DirkvdM 18:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

In the long term, setting your hand on fire is probably a bad way to torture you. Sure it hurts like hell when you're being burnt but eventually they'll have burnt of your pain receptors (third degree burn) and you won't feel pain anymore in that area meaning no more torture in that area (and of course eventually you may die if it's too severe). Presuming you intend the torture to last a long time, I'm not convinced this sort of burning is a good idea (of course more controlled burning like with hot rods and stuff is a different matter). Also, I expect a sufficiently high dosage of morphine or heroine would probably lead to unconciousness (and of course death if it's too high) so even if it doesn't directly numb the pain, you won't feel it. I could be wrong however, don't try this in Guantanamo Bay Nil Einne 18:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• Epidural might work. I suspect too much morphine would just put you in sedation. I'm not a doctor, I don't know. --M@rēino 22:04, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

howling by dogs

Why do dogs howl at the moon?steve irungu —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.220.112.202 (talk) 10:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Can't say I've ever seen one do that. I suspect they're howling at something else, probably something we can't hear. --Milkbreath 13:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

See Wolf#Howling, which explains why wolves sometimes howl at twilight. I don't think the moon has anything to do with this particularly. Domestic dogs will sometimes howl in sympathy with the people it regards as its fellow pack members when they try to sing.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 14:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

A moonlit night would be good for hunting, so howling could be more common on nights with a big full moon. DuncanHill 14:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Wolves do it, too. On the other hand, There are nights when the wolves are silent and only the moon howls (George Carlin). -- JackofOz 01:58, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Odd arm movements by Russian football fans

Watching Match of the Day last night, they gave a brief, unexplained glimpse of the Russian football fans during the game against England making an odd gesture, en-masse. It vaguely resembled a Nazi salute, but was more of a sideways gesticulation than the famous near-vertical salute. They were all pretty much in time, so I guess it was co-ordinated with a song or chant. I was curious as to what this was. Anyone? --Dweller 10:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

They were waving at you!87.102.3.9 15:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

They were making ripples in a liquid and/or oscillating? Kuronue | Talk 15:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Is that a pun on "fans"? --Dweller 15:42, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Seriously I imagine it's just a variation on the mexican wave - but the russians are too lazy to stand up/sit down -so they just wave their hands?87.102.3.9 16:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe, but probably not. It was a one-armed cross-chest sweeping motion, which wouldn't show up as well as the usual above-head Mexican wave. --Dweller 10:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it was a mass-socio-political comment on the herd mentality that causes people to adopt the behaviour around they see around them - though I think it's more likely that they were saluting you personally Dweller..

..Honestly - no idea - I give up.87.102.7.57 11:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Nautilus Minerals

http://finance.google.com/finance?q=LON%3ANUS

is the same company as

http://finance.google.com/finance?q=TSE%3ANUS&hl=en

except traded in London instead of Toronto.

Which is all the same as:

http://www.nautilusminerals.com/s/Investors-StockInfo.asp

why do all of them show a different trend for stock prices over a year? At the very least they should be "relatively" the same if not absolutely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.217.195.89 (talk) 15:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• WOW, the Canadian one took a massive swan dive on Aug 17-20 ... which is not present on MSN's version of the chart. It looks like you stumbled across an error in Google's numbers. --M@rēino 22:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Ref Desk

My friend pointed the following out to me when he got angry. lol, and I have noticed the trend. If some one asks question X and it is answered by bob by saying Y, Dough disagrees with this and says ABC, Jill then comes on and says that dough's ABC answer is closer related to DEF, Jill dough and bob then discuss the finer points of Y, ABC, and DEF. Meanwhile the original question X never gets answered atall since Bob's Y answer was meant to be humourous or was misleading, or just plain erronious. Are there or should there be guidelines to answering questions and if so, should this be monitored? thanks, oh, I hope that makes scence. Sorry if it doesnt. 193.115.175.247 16:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

People who answer questions are ordinary human beings. They respond to things that interest them. There are some guidelines, such as trying to be polite and to assume goodwill. Sometimes we mess up. Sometimes we think the questioner should have read the guidelines at the top. Sometimes the question is unanswerable.

However, like contributors to any other part of the Wikipedia, we are rewarded only by the pleasure we get in answering or reading other people's answers.SaundersW 16:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Reference desk folks are also all volunteer, so if you think that we're not providing appropriate service to a given questioner, you can always be bold and jump in to help!

Atlant 16:29, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Yep - exactly. Ref desks are staffed by people who do this for no pay because we enjoy doing it. There is no other reason. If we aren't happy doing it - we won't be here and no questions will get answered. If it makes us happy to go off on a slight tangent some of the time (we're actually mostly answering each others questions that came about in the course of answering the original one) - that's actually better for the ref desk in the long term. Generally, if a question isn't answered well in the first handful of responses, it was a dumb or clearly unanswerable question in the first place. We get a lot of REALLY bad questions! SteveBaker 19:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes that happens a lot - and can be annoying - the answerers aren't suppose to go off on a tangent - but sometime do. If that happens to a question you ask it's annoying but complaining rarely gets anywhere here... If a question doesn't get answered or gets 'hijacked' I would recommend just re-asking the same quetion again and hope for the best.87.102.3.9 16:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Some users seem to get pleasure from not answering the question an inserting their own jokes etc which often don't seem helpful. Are there any guidlines for answerers?87.102.3.9 16:29, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Here are the basic guidelines governing the refdesks: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/guidelines, although of course other site-wide Wikipedia policies apply also. Considering, as was mentioned, that this is a volunteer-staffed free service, I think the occasional tangent is inevitable and they are, imo, often more interesting than the original question anyways. Also, if the original question isn't answered satisfactorily it may be because no one knows the answer, and of course the questioner is free to post follow-ups and requests for clarification. Finally, feel free to "monitor" answers yourself and bring up specific concerns on the discussion page as this might be more helpful than merely complaining about a general trend you claim to be seeing with no specific diffs supplied. 38.112.225.84 16:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes thing go off tangent because the question was silly anyway. Like the case where someone wanted to find out how to seduce his wife sexually so she would be in his control once again. This may have been trolling anyway but if not, I don't see how it's harmful when it goes off on a tangent Nil Einne 18:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

It is annoying when a reasonably legitimate, sensible question gets hit by a dumb joke answer - or someone deliberately misinterprets a typo or grammar error. We DO have policies telling people not to do that and if it annoys you, I recommend you go to their personal Talk: page and tell them that. SteveBaker 19:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about this. While I agree we need to be a lot more careful with legitimate, sensible questions; if someone in jest makes fun of something without being offensive then that seems fine to me provided the joking doesn't get carried away. Even more so if it's part of a legitimate answer. Whatever the case, if it's your question or the question asker seems pertubed by it then sure, take it to the talk page if you do have a problem with it. But if not, leave it be as community building. Nil Einne 19:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

There are, and it is. --Milkbreath 19:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

It is also particularly disruptive when editors make use of an unrelated reference desk question to criticize other editors. Such posts really belong on a talk page, not here. (The rest of this message will be devoted to a discussion about diabetic sheep.) --S.dedalus 21:11, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Are those sheep who graze on sugar cane? Corvus cornix 18:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I think Johann Sebastian Bach is the best person to ask about that. -- JackofOz 01:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Windows

Sorry to inundate yopu with questions but...If I loose my windows cd and licence ect, is it legal for me to use my friends disk to reinstall windows. I have bought a copy legally, but it has now gone walkabout. do I NEED to buy a new copy or can I download XP from some where, or just use a friends. thankx 193.115.175.247 16:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

If you were to do that, I believe you would stand a chance of being caught by the 'Windows Genuine Advantage' software, leading me to believe that Microsoft doesn't consider it legal. If you ask at the computing desk, there's a good chance they know another way of reinstalling. Skittle 16:53, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

It's perfectly fine to install from someone else's disc, but only if you use your license key, not your friend's. If you lost your license key but can prove you had one (e.g. you still have an installed system using that key), then Microsoft product support can probably help you. Otherwise you'll probably have to buy a new copy. I doubt it's legal to install Windows from a CD you downloaded via BitTorrent, even if you use a legitimate key. -- BenRG 17:01, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't be so sure about that. If you have a legitimate license and are not using anything you're not entitled to use then I don't see how the source would matter. Of course, it may be difficult to prove you have a legitimate license if you don't have the original CD but that doesn't mean it would be illegal. Also, depending on where you live, copyright violation for your own personal use may not be illegal but simply a civil matter between you and the copyright owner (it is potentially illegal in the US, UK and NZ) Nil Einne 18:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I started to post something like this and decided it hung on how Ben's statement is interpreted. "Downloading Windows via Bittorrent and installing it with your legitimate license key is illegal" is probably true, but only because "downloading Windows via Bittorrent is illegal" is probably true. As for proving you have a legitimate license, that hangs on the certificate or sticker (whatever MS is packaging now) that has the license key printed on it, not the disc. — Lomn 18:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

That presumes downloading Windows via bittorent is illegal... This may not be the case, presuming you have the legal right to use Windows I'm not convinced it will be in many countries. Presemuaing you have the right to make archival copies for example, the law is usually silent on how you can make these copies. Note that even license agreements don't appear to usually specify how the archival copies are made. For example the XP EULA [1] mentions "You may also store or install a copy of the Software on a storage device, such as a network server, used only to install or run the Software on your other Workstation Computers over an internal network" so it explicitly gives you the right to store a copy. I don't see how getting the copy from bittorent instead of copying it from the CD will make a difference. (The fact that the person sharing it may be breaking the law is not your business provided you aren't paying them or something like that. Even more so if they aren't in the same country I expect.) Of course, with bittorent you generally have to upload what you're downloading and uploading it to other people may be illegal. But that doesn't change the fact that the actually downloading itself may not be illegal, you could always hack the bittorent client to give nothing or nonsense back (in most cases this will result in you getting a very slow download or banned but the point is it's possible). In the end, I doubt we will ever know since I doubt this will ever be tested in court. Presuming you can show you have a license, no government is likely to prosecute you simply for downloading something you are legally entitled to use (without uploading it to others). I don't think even a company is likely to sue you (which of course probably won't test the legality anyway)... Of course, none of this constitutes legal advice. Nil Einne 19:10, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Hacker

used to use a program called hacker, it was used to cheat at games. I used it primarily on Warcraft I and II and Daggerfall, but it could be used on most games that save...Lets say you are playing Warcraft and you have 200 gold. you save your game as ZYX and exit, open up hacker and ask it to find 200 in save game file XYZ then ask it to change this to 99999999999999. you then enter Warcraft again and open you save game and VOILA! you gold is now 9999999999999. It was really helpful, and since I am playing alot of old games again recently, I would like to find it again. does any one know of this file, and where to find it now days.

On a seperate note, could a program like this be used for Illegal purposes, eg edit my bank account. Obviously I would not do this but am curious, as it was SOOO easy to hack games.

Thanks193.115.175.247 16:20, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Many game system emulators have built-in cheat systems with functionality like this. For popular games you'll almost certainly be able to find a game-specific saved-game editor by doing a web search. Failing that, a general-purpose hex editor will have the functionality you're looking for. For Windows, HxD is a decent one; it can edit not only files but the address space of processes, so you can do the search-and-replace trick even without saving (but be careful). No, you can't use these programs to hack your bank account. Banks are very good at protecting their assets against far more sophisticated attacks than this. -- BenRG 17:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

In principle, however, the bank analogy works. Somewhere electronic data representing your bank balance is stored, and said data can be changed. As Ben notes, in practice, the bank and the game cannot be meaningfully compared. — Lomn 17:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

You might get more answers on the computing desk. If you just want to cheat in Warcraft, what's wrong with the ingame cheat codes? 'glittering prizes' gave lots of gold and lumber in WCII, IIRC. Algebraist 17:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

One reason why the game is relatively easy to hack is that the only person that you are cheating by hacking the game is yourself. Not so a bank. SaundersW 18:29, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

The difference is that your bank balance isn't stored on your computer - it's stored on the bank's computer. So this trick might work if you could run the program on the bank's mainframe at headquarters - but it's definitely not going to work at home! For games where this stuff doesn't matter all that much, you'll get away with simple cheats. But it's trivially easy for the game programmers to stop you from doing that if they want to. The simplest thing would be to encrypt the score/gold/lives/whatever totals so your hacker program can't find '200' anywhere in the game save info. More likely, you'd add something like a checksum to the data - so any change anywhere in the game save data would break it and render the whole thing unusable. So to the extent you can actually do this - it's because someone at the software company decided they didn't mind you doing it. In a world where there are 'achievement points' and online multiplayer games, this kind of thing is less and less acceptable - so expect programs like that to fail more and more often. SteveBaker 18:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Even if you had appropriate access, the trick of replacing one balance figure with another definitely wouldn't work on a bank's computer or any other decent financial system. Financial systems are designed with a lot of built-in redundancy. Double entry accounting and audit trails are intended to detect figures which might have been changed either accidentally or deliberately. A change to a single balance figure would be immediately spotted next time the system ran a trial balance check, which should be done daily. Gandalf61 10:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

What are your professions?

This is random so I stuck it in miscellaneous, but I was just curious what sorts of people are answering these questions? I thought I read somewhere that lots of the people who edit or participate on wikipedia are generally professional class (ie: dentist, IT specialists, etc), but the things they edit or answer are just hobbies they happen to have a lot of knowledge on. Such as a dentist who happens to love history and has quite a broad and accurate knowledge of it though he has no formal history education or credentials. Anyway, to make a long question slightly longer: 1. What is your profession and/or education level? 2. Do you normally answer questions or create/edit articles in that area or some other area? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.28.144.36 (talk) 21:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

It's a sweet, polite and reasonable question, but I think you will find most information by looking at editors' user pages. There are many reasons why people will only reveal a little personal information, some of them even good reasons. (This is not meant as any kind of rebuke or rebuff!) SaundersW 21:55, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

'll pop my response in before some stickler for the rules slaps a 'wikipedia is not an x' on your question...I work as an 'analyst' in the area of 'risk'. Educated to college level but currently studying with the Open University for a degree in International Studies (essentially politics). I pretty much just answer questions on the ref-desk, but ocassionally alter articles if i've seen a show/read something that I think might be of use to someone else. I guess your best bet if you want to find this sort of info is to go to the individual's user-page. A lot of them have details like this on them. Certianly I notice the same names on the ref-desk helping out a lot. ny156uk 21:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is most certainly not an x...it's more of a W. SteveBaker 23:29, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Hey, maybe that could become our 'sign'. Churchill and the hippies had the two fingers in the air, maybe we could recognise each other in the street with a 'three-finger salute'. :) DirkvdM 05:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe there is any statistical data on Reference Desk contributors (though it is an interesting idea, if only to be aware of our systemic biases). However, you can learn more about what sort of people in general frequent Wikipedia in general, by reading the data in Wikipedia:User survey. Otherwise, your best bet is to click on the link to individuals pages and see what they say about themselves. If you wish to start a centralized section where individual editors can "tell us about themselves", its probably better to do so in the talk page. Rockpocket 22:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Taking the reliable source of 'people who get angry at people on the internet', I thought none of us had jobs or lives of any sort, as we all sit in our parents' homes the entire day, every day, being fed tea and biscuits (or milk and cookies), reading a couple of articles over and over, refreshing, so that we can spot changes and revert them... Skittle 23:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

That. Would. Be. AWESOME! Unfortunately I'm stuck in a cramped, crowded, filthy dorm room with crappy food and a ton of homework. Such is the college life.. OP, that's my education --ffroth 03:26, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

By just looking at their account names u can tell that most of them r teenagers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.230.110.162 (talk) 00:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

You can't really tell peoples ages or professions by what their account names are. You may assume by my name (Onceonthisisland) that I work on an Island, or do something with musical theatre. I do neither. Just a thought. --θnce θn this island ^Speak! 00:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, why the thetas? Skittle 00:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Because he is a teenager who works in musical theatre in the Greek Isles, of course. Rockpocket 01:33, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the thetas are just there because they look nice. Greece is a nice place though... --θnce θn this island ^Speak! 00:34, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I've noticed a lot of university students (like me) and semi-retired professionals here. Of course, no one should take what is said on here as gospel. Please don't, but most people will answer in good faith (i.e. they believe it to be true). 130.56.65.24 02:37, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

A fair number of Wikipedians put user boxes on their pages. These are not quite all serious, but a fair few are. See Wikipedia:Userboxes#Gallery, click one, say Wikipedia:Userboxes/Profession, and then click 'what links here' next to ,say, 'acountant'. And there you have the Wikipedians who used a userbox to state they are accountants. Of course, not quite all accountants have placed this user box on their user page, so it won't give you absolute numbers, but you can compare the numbers to get an idea of how the professions balance out. Then again, it doesn't quite look cool to state you're an accountant, so you only get the brave ones here. :) It surprises me that there are so many more biologists (around 80) than astronomers (10). Oh, btw, with the biologists, you need to click '500' because there are more than 50. And if there are more than 500 (such as academics) then you need to click 'next' until you 'run out of nexts'. And you have to count - there's no 'total number of hits' indication. Of course, this is an extremely rough indication, but what you asked (some people here telling what they are and do) would give a rougher indication still. DirkvdM 06:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget that level of education does not necessarily equate to level of intelligence. I abhor responsibility, am terribly lazy and lack motivation and patience but am considered relatively intelligent (and modest to boot) and as a result of this have a crap job (I am basically a glorified secretary) even though I am capable of far more. I mainly just hang around the reference desk as I enjoy reading other peoples responses and answering questions. I know a little about a lot, but not a lot about anything specific. Lanfear's Bane | t 11:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds a lot like me (apart from the modesty bit and the profession). DirkvdM 17:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I imagine a few are unemployed (..insert profession..) as well as the retired and vast numbers of 11 year olds [[2]]87.102.7.57 12:57, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure that a lot more than a few are unemployed. The survey linked to above indicates that just over half have a job. DirkvdM 17:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

By bizarre coincidence, with regard to ny156uk's reply above ... my job title is also "Risk Analyst". I work in a specialised financial field (Receivables Finance) and have a degree in Economics and Politics, but never edit articles on any of these topics. I contribute occasionally to the ref desks, and more frequently contribute to actual articles (especially in the areas of transport and UK towns/cities) and record spoken versions of articles. These are the topics I feel I am most knowledgeable about and can write most effectively about. Hassocks5489 18:17, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I’m a college student with an addiction to writing (although that’s not my subject). I think that’s probably one of the more common stereotypes around here. --S.dedalus 23:08, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Is there a userbox for "This user needs a job"? DuncanHill 01:07, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

JOBThis user needs a job.

There is now. Adapt it to suit your needs - see halfway down Wikipedia:Userboxes. Next step would be to make a 'shortcut template' like {{unemployed}} or such. Can't find how to do that (didn't look too hard). DirkvdM 06:08, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm a laboratory technician (no article on us?) working for a branch of the Environmental Services Group (or on them?). I'm sure it'll look good on a CV some day, but I'd earn more working in the pub down the road, and the job mostly involves sitting alone in a room for seven hours a day testing identical-looking samples (well, aside from the odd one smelling of shit or motor oil, or filled with asbestos). Still, I do enjoy the peace and quiet. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 20:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)