Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 June 8

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June 8

Pronunciation of -ova names

Hi, English speakers typically pronounce Russian -ova names with the stress on the penultimate -o- syllable (e.g. Maria Sharapova). However, a few (e.g. Svetlana Kuznetsova) seem to be pronounced with the stress on the preceding syllable. Is there any basis for such distinction in the original language, or is it just a random choice by English speakers? 86.160.218.94 (talk) 01:46, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

It's a random choice, in Russian the surnames are pronounced Sharápova and Kuznetsóva, that is vice versa of the English practice.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 01:55, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

There's the villainess from the greatest James Bond film ever made, Katínka Ingabogóvinana.

OK, thanks. Is there any known reason for the different stress patterns in the Russian pronunciation? 86.167.19.205 (talk) 11:53, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Russian has free stress, and there's no real way to predict. Stress affects pronunciation very strongly, and it can even vary by case. You just have to learn it. μηδείς (talk) 16:16, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't know of any exception to this rule (which doesn't mean there isn't one): The feminine name is stressed on the same syllable as the masculine name it's derived from. So ShaRAPov, ShaRAPova; KOURnikov, KOURnikova (that one's hard to say for anglophones). --Trovatore (talk) 18:47, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

The exception is for the names that end in stressed -in: Fomín, Fominá; Karamzín, Karamziná; etc. But unstressed -in does follow your rule: Nikítin, Nikítina. Lesgles (talk) 21:11, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Cool; thanks. --Trovatore (talk) 21:18, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

(Digressing — I do find it slightly annoying that plenty of people in the press don't seem to know that surnames in Russian, Greek, etc, are declined for gender. I saw a piece recently on Zubeidat Tsarnaeva and her son, "Tamerlan Tsarnaeva".) --Trovatore (talk) 18:56, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I knew very well that surnames are declined for gender in Russian, Czech, and I assume Polish and most/all Slavic languages. It had never occurred to me that they might be declined in Greek. How many famous Greek women's names do we know for reference? Melina Mercouri, Nana Mouskouri. Is i a feminine ending? Itsmejudith (talk) 21:34, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

The infobox in Mercouri's article says her father's name was Mercouris. I knew a girl with the last name Voutsina; I had always assumed the masculine form was Voutsinos, but in searching I find Voutsinas. So maybe they just leave off the s for the ladies. You know, what with the Greek economy and all, they don't have spare esses just lying around to waste on the girl babies. --Trovatore (talk) 23:24, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

It is correctly termed variable stress. It is lexical, for given word stem it usually occupies the same place in all flections, including M/F variations, yes. About “affects pronunciation very strongly”… IMHO is it a reference to vowel reduction in Russian, a great inconvenience when you hear a word and want to know its spelling (but then you hear where is a stress), and not a serious obstacle when you pronounce a word with given spelling, because reduction can be ignored without making a Russian pronunciation really corrupted. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 19:12, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

В нашем диалекте (по-русински) нет аканья, и ударение как в польском языке — ставится на предпоследнем слоге. μηδείς (talk) 19:41, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Originally these surnames are singular possessive adjectives. But as I personally noticed (I don't know if there's a exact rule and if it always works) -ov surnames bear stress exactly like in the genitive plural form of the corresponding or resembling word: kuznéts "blacksmith" - (of whom?) kuznetsóv "of blacksmiths" => Kuznetsóv(a). So you just need to look for that (genitive plural) form in a dictionary (like this) to predict the right stress.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 21:23, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

There are a few exceptions to that too, like Быков, which apparently is stressed on the first syllable in order to avoid the association with бык. But it probably works in 90% of the cases. Lesgles (talk) 01:02, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't quite see how that avoids the association with бык. It seems to almost guarantee it. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 03:18, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I would say, just to avoid confusion with быко́в, a plural genitive form of wikt:бык. BTW this is a case where the stress jumps to a word ending from the stem: it occurs for some nouns, but for others do not, without a regularity. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 07:44, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I remembered where I read about it—in Boris Unbegaun, Russian Surnames: "Another tendecny governing stress-shift is semantic or, rather, psychological: it reflects the desire to get away from a vulgar or commonplace etymology. This happens mainly in disyllabic surnames, as, for example, Býkov (byk 'ox', gen. byká), Kótov (kot 'tomcat', gen. kotá), Lómtev (lomót' 'hunk', gen. lomtjá), Zërnov (zernó 'grain'), but cf. also Stárikov (starík 'old man', gen. stariká), Žívotov (živót 'belly', gen. životá). In most of such cases a well-established family tradition is involved" (p. 28). Lesgles (talk) 16:57, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

It can get tricky with eponyms. The dessert is correctly pronounced pav-LO-va but, as educated New Zealanders and Australians know, the ballerina after whom it was named was Anna PAV-lova. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:07, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Maths / Math

I teach Mathematics, in Australia. We shorten that word to Maths, always. That appears to be the case in the UK too.

I know that Americans say Math, rather than Maths. Is that all Americans, all the time? How about Canadians?

And how about English speakers elsewhere?

And how and when did the difference arise? HiLo48 (talk) 07:51, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Funny, I did a postdoc in math in Canada, but I can't really remember. I do remember them saying zed-eff-see, which I never really did get used to, though I adjusted to Celsius and the pronunciation of ou pretty well (actually, the Canadian pronunciation of ou is just how it's spelled).

I would assume that means they say math, but I'm not really sure.

Anyway, maths appears to treat mathematics as a plural word, which to me is sort of odd, because it takes a singular verb, as far as I know, in all varieties of English (anyone care to dispute that)? It's clearly plural in origin, but it seems to be singular now, and the word *mathematic really does not exist in contemporary language. --Trovatore (talk) 08:00, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

There's actually a discussion of the seeming plural nature of Mathematics in our article on it (3rd paragraph), suggesting that it goes back to Latin and Greek words meaning roughly "all things mathematical". HiLo48 (talk) 08:07, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Sure, I agree, in origin it's plural, as I said. But that was then. You can't really say *mathematics are difficult in any English variety I'm aware of. There seems to be a general tendency for some plurals to singularize. Mathematics and agenda are already gone; I am still willing to fight over criteria, phenomena, and dice. --Trovatore (talk) 08:11, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Nobody thinks of such considerations when using these words in speech. It's down to whatever one is acculturated to. 'Maths' seems to fit very nicely with 'stats', but I know from earlier discussions on this topic that some people abbreviate the study as 'stat', reserving 'stats' for actual numbers. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 08:15, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

As a teacher of teenagers I try to present material from wide range of sources, but often have to explain to my students what a die is. (As well as what Math is!) HiLo48 (talk) 08:21, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I've pretty much given up on people treating opera as a plural, too. Angr (talk) 08:46, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

(* wink *) -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 08:48, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

"Mathematics are difficult" sounds perfectly fine to me. — Lfdder (talk) 09:04, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Seriously? Where are you from? Are you a native speaker? --Trovatore (talk) 18:41, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Maybe, but at least one out of "Math are difficult" or "Maths are difficult" may not. HiLo48 (talk) 09:16, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

What about "Physics are difficult"? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 09:19, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd always say maths/physics is difficult, but I might say mathematics are difficult. It doesn't feel wrong for 'mathematics'. — Lfdder (talk) 09:22, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Sometimes it's a moveable feast for me. "What are his politics?", but "Politics is a fascinating subject". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 09:40, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I am from the UK and "mathematics/maths are difficult" sounds impossible to me. 86.167.19.205 (talk) 11:55, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

In Canada we say "math". I have never heard anyone say "maths", not even old people who are more prone to Britishisms. I suspect the vast majority of Canadians do not even know that other English speakers say "maths". Adam Bishop (talk) 09:49, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

And that's got me thinking about the fact that Australian kids aren't aware that Americans (or Canadians) say Math rather than the Maths they're familiar with. You see, Aussie kids know an awful lot about American culture from TV, movies and music, but not that bit. Obviously Americans never mention Mathematics in TV programs, films or songs. HiLo48 (talk) 10:36, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Which is weird, since I've been hearing "Math" on American TV programs and movies for longer than I can remember. I'm sure your kids have heard it plenty of times too, but the ability to notice detail seems to be a thing of the past. There's probably an app for that now. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 10:43, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

LOL. Yeah, the expression "Do the math" seems common enough, but it doesn't seem to sink in. HiLo48 (talk) 10:50, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Congratulations, you've maxed out cynicism. ;P — Lfdder (talk) 10:56, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm sure it's a skill which grows with age. Anyway, we seem to have confirmed that math is the norm in the US and Canada, while it's maths in the UK and Australia. What about other English speakers? HiLo48 (talk) 11:01, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

It's maths in Singapore (former British colony). — SMUconlaw (talk) 11:37, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Yeah, I thought about the British colony thing. The US and Canada are former British colonies too, but separated much further back. Still interested in where and when the abbreviation evolved HiLo48 (talk) 17:35, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

The Online Etymology Dictionary has "math" from 1890 and "maths" from 1911. I bet both of them go back much further. It's not at all surprising that the word should be abbreviated, as school slang among pupils, or by staff issuing timetables. And not surprising that American high schools didn't bother to liaise with English public schools before settling on an abbreviation. Les maths in French BTW. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:27, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Wow, that's interesting. So we don't get to find out if Mathematics is masculine or feminine. HiLo48 (talk) 22:27, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

We do, feminine, cf Wiktionary. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:02, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

(ec) In Italian, it's feminine singular: la matematica. I assume it's feminine in all neo-Latin languages, but they aren't always consistent ("flower" is masculine in Italian but feminine in French), so I wouldn't guarantee it 100%. --Trovatore (talk) 23:04, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I still use maths (after 39 years in Canada) but my son uses math. I'm not sure though that the length of time has too much influence on pronunciation as Canadians say /lɛfˈtɛnənt/ as opposed to /ljuːˈtɛnənt/. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 05:57, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Who says /ljuːˈtɛnənt/? Genuinely curious. My yod-dropping is pretty minimal by American standards; for example, I keep the yod in news. But I certainly drop it in Lieutenant. So the ones who say /ljuːˈtɛnənt/ — are they Americans who have even less yod-dropping than I do, or are they speakers of some other variety that doesn't say "Leftenant"? --Trovatore (talk) 07:38, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

According to Lieutenant#Pronunciation, /ljuːˈtɛnənt/ is a US pronunciation and the guy I was talking to a few years ago from the 109th Airlift Squadron used that form. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 15:35, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

You specifically remember the detail that he said lyoo-TEN-ant instead of loo-TEN-ant? I mean, could be, but I'm curious where he might have been from. It's a surprising pronunciation for an American. --Trovatore (talk) 20:52, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps the IPA at Lieutenant isn't correct then. It says ".../ljuːˈtɛnənt/ ^ⓘ lew-TEN-ənt...generally associated with anyone from the United States." (Referenced from http://www.bartleby.com/61/73/L0157300.html). Of course I can't find the entry in the reference given but http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/lieutenant gives the IPA as luːˈtenənt.

Exactly. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 03:33, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I always have to correct myself and remember to say "leftenant". All those years of watching Star Trek and other American TV shows have made "lootenant" (and not "lyootenant") my almost-default pronunciation. Fortunately we have lots of official army and government leftenants so I don't think my mistake is the norm. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:05, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Unsurprisingly it's 'Maths' in Ireland Stanstaple (talk) 20:49, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Russian verb conjugation

In wiktionary's section of Russian verbs the conjugation class of each verb is told. There seem to be sixteen different conjugation classes, but I haven't found any explanation of how the conjugations are formed in each class. Can these rules be found somewhere? 85.76.153.6 (talk) 08:09, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

That's the classification system of Andrey Zaliznyak from his Грамматический словарь, so you could look for that. Another way is to look at the actual templates that Wiktionary uses (English and Russian). There are many different methods, though. See e.g. the single-stem verb system. Lesgles (talk) 17:45, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Google for Andrei Zalizniak Petit dictionnaire pratique russe-français : suivi d'un « Précis de déclinaison et de conjugaison russes », et d'« Éléments de phonétique russe », page 584 and following. You should understand a little French though.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 19:31, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

If you understand Russian it's much better to read «Русская грамматика» by the Russian Academy of Science.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 19:41, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

the meaning of pikasheen

Would you please teach me the meaning of 'pikasheen' in "It was a girl like Eve Malone, a little pikasheen who wouldn't have had a drink on her at all, that would end up in hospital."123.227.223.236 (talk) 13:24, 8 June 2013 (UTC)dengen

It obviously means a tiny little thing from the context, but I'm not sure where it comes from, as I don't know Irish. I see the only other reference google turns up is one asking the exact same question on a word reference forum. --Xuxl (talk) 13:56, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

For context, the word appears in the novel Circle of Friends by Maeve Binchy, published in 2007: "Dessie Burns said that there was a lot of truth in the theory that if you fell down drunk, you never hurt yourself, a theory he had tested only too often. It was a girl like Eve Malone, a little pikasheen who wouldn't have had a drink on her at all, that would end up in hospital." Google Books finds no other occurrences. This question has been asked on an internet forum, but didn't get any answer that seemed very convincing. My guess is that it derives somehow from Gaelic. Looie496 (talk) 14:02, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

It sounds very likely to be from Irish Gaelic, but an Anglicised version, since the Irish alphabet has no letter K. The rather similar sounding "Colleen" is from the Irish cailín. Alansplodge (talk) 21:51, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

It sounds like it's probably some sort of diminutive of Irish pioc (pronounced "pick"), which means "a bit, jot, whit", although that's usually a negative polarity item usually used only after negatives (i.e. "not a bit, not a whit"). The suffix -ín is an extremely common diminutive (as in cailín "girl", from which the name Colleen is derived), but I'm not sure what the -ash- is doing. I can't find any word in any of my Irish dictionaries that looks likely to be anglicized "pickasheen". Incidentally, Circle of Friends was published in 1990; I assume your copy was simply printed in 2007. Angr (talk) 22:03, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) A stab in the dark, but picasin (which perhaps sounds a bit like "pikasheen") seems to mean "pickle".[1] Hopefully, a Gaelic speaker will happen by with a better answer. Alansplodge (talk) 22:08, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

No; it says it can't find the word picasin (which isn't orthographically possible in Irish anyway) and is offering you the word picil ("pickle") as a possibility for what it thinks you might have meant. Angr (talk) 22:24, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Do'h! It was the name of a racehorse and I thought I might be on to something. Alansplodge (talk) 23:44, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

This forum discussion suggests "pixie", "piscín", and "pigsney". Piscín, "kitten" sounds the most likely to me (pishkeen > picksheen > pickasheen). Binchy also uses the spellings "pickasheen" and "pickaheen", unless some of those are misprints. Lesgles (talk) 00:51, 9 June 2013 (UTC)