Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 July 20

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July 20

Russian

What is the equivalent of surgical technologist in russian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.74.50.52 (talk) 03:22, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Google Translate gives this: хирургическая технолог--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 03:45, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Ugh! That's a feminine adjective juxtaposed with a masculine noun, which is known in academic circles as a "nyet-nyet". The correct adjective is хирургический. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 11:54, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I thought it was common knowledge that "nyet-nyet"s and a chuckle are all you get from Google Translate.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 17:15, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Russian hospitals are organized differently from American ones, so there might not be an exact equivalent. Yandex gives two translations of "surgical technician": фельдшер хирургического отделения (physician assistant of the surgical department) and операционная сестра (operational nurse [literally sister]). Lesgles (talk) 13:43, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

beside or around?

A. As for my new apartment, it's in a great location beside the park. B. As for my new apartment, it's in a great location around the park. According to my answer key, the correct answer is A. Why is B wrong? Thank you. 203.240.243.100 (talk) 06:18, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, "around" could mean two things:

1) Encircling. It's unlikely that the apartment encircles the park.

2) Nearby. This might be correct, but it's rather vague. The potential for confusion with the first meaning is another reason to avoid this word. StuRat (talk) 06:27, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)One might write "there are numerous apartments around the park", but a single apartment must be in a single location, hence "beside the park", not around it. (The park could be around the apartment if the latter happened to be in the middle of the former.) Dbfirs 06:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Further to StuRat's answer above, I think pedants in the UK would consider the use of "around" in the sense of "nearby" or "on the perimeter of" to be incorrect, but the usage might be more common in the USA. Dbfirs 06:47, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

So, in the UK, you wouldn't say "I'll meet you somewhere around the entrance ?". StuRat (talk) 07:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

No it would be "by the entrance", or "near the entrance". On the other hand if you were both going to the park with no particular plans to meet you could say "I might see you around". -- Q Chris (talk) 08:04, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Well we might say "somewhere around the entrance" informally, especially if we meant one of many possible locations on the the perimeter of the entrance, but one wouldn't write it in a formal document. We'd be much more likely to say "somewhere near the entrance". Dbfirs 08:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

As an American I would cock my head like a confused dog if someone ever said "B". Around is not used in this way. "A" on the other hand is comprehensible though it sounds very British to me and would not be common. "Nearby to" or "nearby" or related expressions would be more expected. "I'll meet you somewhere around the entrance" is different than the use of around in the OP and might be heard.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 09:07, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Did you confuse A and B ? Also, what is "ns might be heard" ? StuRat (talk) 09:13, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Ugg, just a typo, fixed. Yes, I reversed them also fixed. I think I forgot to eat my Wheaties this morning (an expression that may not be familiar to non-Americans:-)--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 09:15, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Not familiar, but easily understood. (We might say "Weetabix".) I agree that "around the entrance" is a different usage, but I struggled to explain the difference (so I didn't). A British Estate Agent (Realtor in the USA?) would be more likely to say "overlooking the park" (even if only one small window had the required view). Dbfirs 11:39, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

This is rather beside the point, but, when trying to sell a house, an American realtor would never overlook the park view, in fact they'd get around to it right away. (Why watch TV when you can view muggings from your own window ?) :-) StuRat (talk) 20:33, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

In British English, beside the park and nearby, near or near to the park have different meanings. The former is next to, literally alongside, although not necessarily overlooking; the latter close to, in the vicinity of. We'd never say nearby to. Bazza (talk) 13:46, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The issue arises due to a conflict in the implications of the words "location" and "around". A location is a specific place implicitly conceived of as unitary. The primary sense of around is surrounding, encompassing, enclosing. Using those senses, we cannot see the location of an apartment (basically, a street address) encompassing a park. Nevertheless you could interpret the words differently. The word around can be used to imply lack of specificity. He arrived around noon means close to noon, not before and after noon. As above, if you say you will meet someone around the park entrance, you are implying you will be within eyesight of the entrance, maybe at a nearby shop or bench. As for location, its unity is relative. One could say, in regards to New York City the best location to build a hotel is around Central Park.

Back to the original sentences and paraphrasing them, the first sentence is probably saying, "My new apartment is in a great location; my new apartment is beside the park." The second sentence could not work that way. You can't say "My new apartment is in a great location" (i.e., specific place) and "my new apartment is around the park" implying it either surrounds the park (impossible) or is somewhere near the park (i.e., non-specific place). That is either nonsense or a contradiction. Nevertheless, you can analyze the sentence to mean: "My new apartment is in a great location; the location is around the park." That might make sense if you had just said, "I couldn't stand the neighbourhood I just moved out of; so close to the dump it always stank." The trick with tests like these is always to choose the better answer. The first sentence raises no flags. The second option would only work if you made a whole lot of assumptions which simply weren't provided to you in evidence. μηδείς (talk) 17:03, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Song lyrics in Zulu: syllable division?

As I have no audio access to speakers of Zulu and haven't succeeded in puzzling out its pronunciation, I'd appreciate some guidance here on where the syllables break in the lyrics to Siyahamba:

Siyahamba ekukhanyeni kwenkos'

Thank you, Deborahjay (talk) 17:43, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I'll give it a go even though I don't know Zulu as such, as a South African familiar with our national anthem and hearing spoken Zulu quite often, this should be pretty accurate -

Siya|hamba eku|khan|yeni kwen|kos'

Roger (talk) 18:03, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I have studied Zulu. Zulu syllables end in vowels, nasals can be syllabic, penultimate syllables are long: si-ya-ha:-mba e-ku-kha-nye:-ni kwe-n-ko:s. The final s in the last word is due to the dropping of the final vowel. The phrase means "we-walk into-the-light of-the-lord". Clement M. Doke's hard to find Text-book of Zulu Grammar is the definitive reference of the Zulu language. The site http://isizulu.net/ is incredibly good, with one of the best interactive translating dictionaries of any language I have come across on line. μηδείς (talk) 18:50, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Sang this song in Sunday school in Norway in the 1980s. We used the syllable division Roger gives above (the -mba blending into the next e). Of course, that is not any proof as I doubt anyone who had taught it to anyone who taught it to me knew any Zulu... Jørgen (talk) 20:45, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The only real problem with Roger's suggestion is that it is e-ku-kha-nye:-ni, not e-ku-khan-ye:-ni; it's a paltalized initial nye, not a final n followed by a y in the next syllable. For some reason he has only attempted some of the syllable breaks, not all. μηδείς (talk) 20:59, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Medeis, are you sure it's kwe-n-kos? I'm not sure about Zulu, but in Xhosa, the "n" in Class 5 nouns is never syllabic, so: kwe-nko-s(i). 67.158.4.158 (talk) 21:39, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you are right, it's not syllabic, but it's not inherent to the root either, which is why I separated it, since the plural is amakhosi. Perhaps historically it's a contraction? I'll post a question on the forum at isiZulu.net μηδείς (talk) 22:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

No it's not inherent to the root; (not sure what you mean by "contraction"). The Class 5 prefix is iN-, where the "N" assimilates to the place of articulation of a following occlusive, and aspirated stops lose their aspiration when they're prenasalized. So //iN-khosi// -> inkosi. 67.158.4.158 (talk) 06:14, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Not that anyone cares, but I just remembered that I made a mistake: the iN- class is class number 7, not class number 5. Oops.67.158.4.158 (talk) 11:05, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

OP adds: I neglected to state in phrasing my query, that while the morphology aspects are relevant for understanding the text, my primary interest is phonologic - to learn and teach the song in my community. At least one local immigrant from South Africa speaks Afrikaans and others picked up a smattering of Zulu or Xhosa as children, but I'd rather take this opportunity to get the pronunciation right. Once I get past the syllable breaks, I can consult the IPA table on the Zulu language page. I'd also appreciate if anyone has a preferred rendition to recommend on YouTube. -- Thanks to you all, Deborahjay (talk) 08:22, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

The syllable breaks are: si-ya-ha:-mba e-ku-kha-nye:-ni kwe-nko:s, where the colons indicate a vowel lengthening rather more pronounced than you would expect in English. You can ignore the intervening discussion. I wouldn't worry too much about the syllable initial nasals from the viewpoint of an English speaker either; just say hamba and kwenkos as you would in English, with the n in kwenkos an ng sound, not a pure n. (The isiZulu.net website gives the IPA pronunciations if you want them, no need to figure it out from the article.) The only tricky consonants are the k's. The kh is an aspirated k identical to the standard initial English k as in kitchen, not like the ch sound of loch or Bach. The first intervocalic k in ekukhanyeni is the voiced implosive ɠ—an english g will be a reasonable substitution if you can't pronounce the [ɠ]. All the other k's are unaspirated as in Russian or the hard c in French or Spanish. μηδείς (talk) 18:32, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

PS, lengthened penultimate /e/ and /o/ followed by a high vowel ('i' or 'u') in the final syllable is raised from the usual [ɛ] and [ɔ] to [e] and [o]. This applies to the seond 'e' in ekukhanyeni and the 'o' in kwenkos. μηδείς (talk) 02:17, 23 July 2012 (UTC)