Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 February 19

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February 19

Stop series - aspirated/breathy/modal?

Does any language have such an arrangement? I know some have aspirate/breathy in stops and breathy/modal in sonorants, but I'm specifically looking for /kʰ gʱ g/, for example. It just kind of *feels* like that would be more stable than the /k gʱ g/ of PIE, but I'd like a bit more trustworthy source. Lsfreak (talk) 02:36, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

A number of books by people like Ian Maddieson survey sound inventories of many languages. Anyway, the Glottalic theory has been argued about for almost 40 years without having become accepted as the main default hypothesis by most scholars... AnonMoos (talk) 08:52, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

French

In French written slang (i.e., in IRC and informal online boards), one will often see something like "p'wet". What does this mean? 72.128.95.0 (talk) 03:35, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

In French pwet/pouet/pouêt (the "t" is pronounced) is an onomatopoeia from the sound of a bulb horn (old car klaxon). The meaning heavily depends on the context, but in IRC I guess that the meaning for pouêt-pouêt ! (or pouêt for short) is: "you are obviously wrong, so you'd better keep your mouth shut". — AldoSyrt (talk) 11:27, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Languages in The Eagle

The film The Eagle (2011 film) is specifically set in the year 140 AD, mostly north of Hadrian's Wall. In the film, a Roman and his Brigante slave, Esca, encounter a tribe which the movie calls the Seal People. I'm not sure if they're supposed to be Picts, but their warriors keep themselves covered in dried mud at all times (I'm not sure what woad-dyed skin would look like, so I don't know if they're supposed to be Picts or not. As a Brigante, Esca claims that his people were allied with the Seal People against the Romans, so he is welcomed into their village. Esca serves as a translator between the Seal People and the Roman. At one point, when Esca introduces himself to the Seal People, he calls himself "Esca mac <his father's name>.". Now am I correct in assuming that, as a Brigante, his native language would have been something Brythonic, and therefore in his own language he would have been Esca ap <his father's name>? If I'm correct, then what he's doing is using Scots Gaelic to speak to the Seal People. But Scots Gaelic appears not to have been introduced into Scotland until about the 4th century. Is this an anachronism in the movie? What language/languages would the people living north of Hadrian's Wall have spoken? Something Brythonic? Corvus cornix_talk 07:05, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Ogham inscriptions, even in Wales and Cornwall, use MAQI for "son"... AnonMoos (talk) 09:14, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Are we trying to disprove the notion of P-Celtic and Q-Celtic here? It's pretty fringe to dispute that Brythonic speakers had map rather than mac. This is surely just a blunder on the part of the film makers, who weren't interested in such subtleties, correctly assuming that most of the audience wouldn't know the difference. They probably figured that "Hey, Scottish people are the only 'Celts' around there now, aren't they - so why don't we make them all 'macs'".--91.148.159.4 (talk) 01:29, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not an expert in Celtic linguistics; however, I do happen to know that Ogham inscriptions, even in Wales and Cornwall, use MAQI for "son", so I mentioned the fact... AnonMoos (talk) 02:34, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, I'm not an expert either, but at least the mac vs map thing is pretty basic and undisputed; as for the Ogham inscriptions, our article says the inscriptions are mostly in primitive Irish - even those outside of Ireland. Apparently Ogham was above all an Irish thing, and its use on the other side of the sea was connected with admixtures of Irish origin in the population and/or with Irish cultural influence. --91.148.159.4 (talk) 14:47, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

If they are meant to be Picts, then no one really knows what the Pictish language was like. Some kind of Celtic? Some other Indo-European language? Not IE at all? Adam Bishop (talk) 09:28, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

This probably goes beyond what the film intended (and I don't recall it from the book on which the film is based), but the name "Seal People" carries a suggestion of a reference to Selkies, a Scots folk legend of "were-seals". It has been suggested that this may derive from encounters with Sami kayakers who occasionally visited Scottish shores.

I have seen suggestions that the Picts were not monoethnic, but a confederation which included both Gaelic-speaking tribes and non-Gaelophones. Having lived in the formerly Pictish Kingdom of Fife (where some think or thought that the Ninth Legion was wiped out), I dearly wish there was more evidence available about the Picts. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 12:49, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Some information about Pictish here. Alansplodge (talk) 13:11, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Is it possible that the Picts were Iberians? Corvus cornix_talk 05:36, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

In Sims-Williams, Patrick (2004). The Celtic Inscriptions of Britain: Phonology and Chronology, c. 400-1200. The Philological Society. ISBN 1-4051-0903-3., Sims-Williams discusses in order the "ninety-eight Brittonic sound changes between the first century BC and the twelfth century AD" listed by Kenneth Jackson in Language and History in Early Britain (1953). These do not include the change Q -> P, unsurprisingly, since that is one of the defining characteristics of Brythonic (or Brittonic). The index to Sims-Williams' book certainly includes plenty of instances of "MAQ(I)" and "MAC(C)V and compounds thereof: every one of them is doubly underlined, meaning "probable Irish names".

In other words, "MAQ" and "MACCV" are well-known in Inscriptions from mainland Britain, but are confidently interpreted as being Irish names. --ColinFine (talk) 22:36, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Agreed - there was substantial Irish settlement in both Wales and Cornwall in the "Dark Ages". Some more information about Ogham and Irish incursion here. Alansplodge (talk) 17:42, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

piano ripple

Hello everybody, I hope this is the right place for my question (sorry if it's not!). I'm trying to get my head arround a review of a mainstream rock album that I'm supposed to summarize. However, the style of the text is a bit too flowery for me. Anyway, here is the phrase that I'm failing to understand: "The song is a three-minute rock opera, complete with humming, liquid-toned guitars, tympani-style drums and ripples of piano."

Does anybody know what "ripples of piano" is supposed to mean here? How can a piano sound like it's dabbling? ;) Could it mean that the piano is phasing in and out of the mix, i. e. that quiet and loud passages are alternating.

I'd be glad if someone could help me out on that. Thanks in advance! --84.148.25.251 (talk) 11:38, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

When I've encountered the term before, I've always understood it to refer to the repeated and gentle playing of fast arpeggios. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 12:29, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Also perhaps liberal use of glissando is implied. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:19, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your helpful replies! I've just found the song on Youtube (don't be surprised by the opening falsetto scream ;). It's very classical influenced and there are indeed many arpeggios in the intro. But I think the author was referring to the verses and chorus part where the piano mostly plays chords... Here's the sheet music by the way. --84.148.25.195 (talk) 16:23, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Help writing Urdu script

How do I write the Urdu at http://npiskuwait.com/dsPortal/dsFls/templates/fronted/default/images/npis_text.jpg in computer text? I want to add the Urdu to the New Pakistan International School article WhisperToMe (talk) 13:46, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

It's quite small and blurry, but as far as I can tell it's in Arabic, not Urdu: المدرسة البكستانية الدولية (can't make out the last word). AnonMoos (talk) 14:19, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Logically, the last word would be expected to be الجديدة but I really can't tell with any degree of confidence whether the blur is that or not... AnonMoos (talk) 14:24, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

The fourth word is الحدیثه, meaning new. --Omidinist (talk) 16:16, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Not too sure what the difference in meaning between jadīd and ħadith is... AnonMoos (talk) 17:39, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

"al-jadida" would mean "new school" as in replacing an old one, whereas "al-haditha" means contemporary or modern, which can also be translated as new. --Xuxl (talk) 18:47, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Word 'crisis' in Chinese

Does it mean 'risk' + 'opportunity'?Quest09 (talk) 20:49, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Crisis is: 危機. The first "letter", 危, means: risk (or rather; danger), whereas the second "letter", 機, means: machine.

On the other hand, opportunity (or rather: chance), is: 機會. The first "letter", 機, means: machine, whereas the second "letter", 會, means: meeting.

Hope this helps. Comment: I'm not a Chinese speaker, so take it into account.

Cohneli (talk) 21:18, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

It does not, and we have an article on this: Chinese word for "crisis". rʨanaɢ (talk) 21:49, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

A wealth of information here. 86.161.110.118 (talk) 21:51, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I knew that! That was just idle talk of the multicultural consultants! (or motivational speaker). Quest09 (talk) 21:56, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Dear god! What's next? Is somebody going to say the Eskimoes dont have n-1 words for snow? TomorrowTime (talk) 17:31, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Hehe.... I assume you're being sarcastic, but just for others reading along: The Great Eskimo Vocabulary Hoax (short pdf version), and our article on Eskimo words for snow. rʨanaɢ (talk) 22:00, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

The second character 機 began as meaning "mechanism", and in particular the triggering mechanism on a crossbow. From this meaning of "triggering mechanism", it came to mean, metaphorically, a crucial triggering or turning point in an event. It is in this sense that it is used in the translation of "crisis", perhaps most literally translated as "dangerous trigger point". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 20:02, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

In what language does one say: to complain "from" somebody, instead of: to complain "about" somebody ?

Cohneli (talk) 20:56, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Bulgarian, for example. We say: оплаквам се от някого. --Theurgist (talk) 22:37, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I need more languages. How about Romanian? Cohneli (talk) 22:43, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

In Romanian you can say: "a se plânge de cineva"; de is a widely applicable Romanian preposition, but often means "from" or "of", and usually not "about". --Theurgist (talk) 23:34, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Spanish - "quejarse de algo"·Maunus·ƛ· 23:43, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Although the Romanian and Spanish examples are probably better seen as examples of languages that say "complain of somebody" - the de in these contexts isn't a directional but a genitive.·Maunus·ƛ· 23:44, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, you cannot translate 'from' as 'de'. Prepositions don't have a direct translation, they are they use. 81.47.150.216 (talk) 14:02, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

What does "they are they use" mean? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 19:04, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

He means they are their use. And he is absolutely right - no preposition corresponds completely to a preposition in another language.·Maunus·ƛ· 19:09, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

OP's comment and clarification:

*Bulgarian is a bad example, because от means "of", rather than "from", i.e. you don't use от in the directional meaning, right?

• Let me explain again my question: I'm looking for a language, having a word, say "X", so that:

1. The English sentence: "I flew from Chicago to NY" is translated into the second langauge as: "I flew X Chicago to NY" (the words: "I", "flew", "to", being properly translated into the second language).

2. The English sentence "I complained about him" is translated into the second language as "I complained X him" (the words: "I", "complained", "him", being properly translated into the second language).

Is this clear enough now?

Cohneli (talk) 19:36, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, the examples already given still apply. French also works; you would use "de" in both of your sentences. At least in French, "de" means "of", "about", "from", and other things. This comes from Latin, where "de" also had multiple meanings. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:59, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I second that. Bulgarian does use the same preposition in the directional meaning, as do Romanian and Spanish. Maunus' comment about these being cases of "of" and not "from" was misleading, since the Romance languages in question actually use the same preposition in both senses (both "genitive" and "ablative"), so it's hard to say with certainty which sense applies in the case of "complain". Bulgarian is an even purer example, because the preposition от is only "ablative" ("I flew от Chicago to NY"), never "genitive".--91.148.159.4 (talk) 14:57, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Oh, thank you, I didn't know that.

How about other Slavic languages? Are they like Bulgarian? Cohneli (talk) 16:49, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

That's an interesting question. Curiously enough, Russian is not like this ("жаловаться на" = "to complain on somebody"), and neither are, apparently, Serbian and Czech ("žaliti se na", "stěžovat si na" = again, "to complain on"), and Polish. I'm actually surprised by this agreement of Slavic languages that are otherwise pretty divergent. Bulgarian might turn out to be pretty much alone on this one. --91.148.159.4 (talk) 20:48, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. Thank you. Cohneli (talk) 11:17, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I believe the Spanish example can be thought of a figurative ablative ("from"). That's the general approach for a prepositional complement linked to a pronominal verbal form. For reference, the New Spanish Grammar cites this figurative ablative, and gives the examples arrepentirse de algo and curarse de algo, among others. Pallida  Mors 00:04, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Ablative? Can you use the "de" in sentences like "I flew from Chicago to NY"? The examples arrepentirse de algo and curarse de algo, don't involve the directional meaning I'm looking for. Cohneli (talk) 17:34, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, as I believe others have already said. An online Spanish dictionary gives the example "viajar de Edimburgo a Madrid", "to travel from Edinburgh to Madrid".--91.148.159.4 (talk) 18:24, 23 February 2011 (UTC)