Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 April 21

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April 21

english grammar

is 'go' a sentence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.205.147.22 (talk) 14:14, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I would say so (with a period or exclamation point on the end). It's used as an example in our imperative mood article. -- Coneslayer (talk) 14:18, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, It is. rʨanaɢ (talk) 14:39, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, 'Go.' is.—msh210℠ 17:48, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

To update

When and where did this horrible verb first come into use? Kittybrewster ☎ 15:43, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

The OED has attestations of the past participle "updated" as an adjective as early as 1910. (And "to update" from the 40s and 50s.) What's wrong with it? Adam Bishop (talk) 15:52, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)What's so horrible about it? I find it very helpful, and much more concise than having to say "bring up to date" all the time. According to Merriam-Webster, the verb was first used in print in 1941, and the noun in 1965. +Angr 15:56, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I know I am antedeluvian but I far prefer to bring things up to date. Kittybrewster ☎ 16:01, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

That phrase doesn't have the same meaning as "update", so it's a poor replacement for it. I can update my IE installation from version 6 to version 7, but I won't have brought it up to date. Algebraist 20:33, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

You will have brought it more up to date than it was. But if it's still not the most up to date version, then your update would still leave your version dated. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:38, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

If you're antedeluvian, then clearly you don't! :-) +Angr 16:07, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

[Puzzled readers, please see http://www.onelook.com/?w=antediluvian&ls=a. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:08, 21 April 2010 (UTC)]

If it's possible "to date", then it's possible "to update". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?}

carrots→ 17:53, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Not a valid comparison, the two meanings are only vaguely related. To date is to place in a time continuum or to accompany someone on a social excursion for the purposes of establishing a relationship. To update is to provide information, facilities or features not previously known or used by the receiver. Not really related except by the word date. Is it possible to 'down date'?

As in, "I was seeing Kathy Griffin, but then I updated Taylor Swift." Clarityfiend (talk) 18:56, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

But there's also "To become old, especially in such a way as to fall out of fashion, become less appealing or attractive, etc." as in "Bugs' jokes are really dated" (I kid!). AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:57, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Again, not so. That is a compound verb, 'to be dated'. 'It dated' does not mean to go out of fashion etc. But 'It dated me' means it placed me in a certain time period or continuum,(as above) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.186.107 (talk) 22:00, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

"'It dated' does not mean to go out of fashion etc." - You should take that up with the Wiktionarians then, because the linked entry says otherwise. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 07:02, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "route"

I've noticed an increase in the (grating to me) pronunciation of "route" as "rout". I've always rhymed "route" with "root", while the other pronunciation rhymes it with "pout" (i.e. in IPA: ru:t vs. raʊt, I think). I gather the "rout" pronunciation may be more prevalent in the US. How long have people been pronouncing route like rout? Could this have started because the past participle of both is "routed"? I'm in Toronto, Canada, btw. Thanks in advance. -- Flyguy649 ^talk 18:08, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

And yes, I know the "r" is really a ɹ in IPA for English. -- Flyguy649 ^talk 18:23, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

My Websters', from both 1961 and 1994, give "root" as the first and "rout" as the second. I've known many who use it either way, apparently depending on how it "sounds" in the sentence. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:13, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

That's what I do in Detroit, "root" or "rowt", as needed. StuRat (talk) 18:17, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

My Webster's Unabridged, from 1948, gives more detail. It says "root" is the "generally accepted" pronunciation, but gives exception as "rout" by certain usages: military, railroad, and delivery. Which, if you think about it, covers a lot of ground. The point being, the "rout" version has been around for a long time. Further confusing matters is that the actual word "rout" as well as the carpenter's tool called a "router", both rhyming with "out" or "about", all come from the same Latin root which is also the source of "rupture" or "disrupt". They all refer to "breaking" something, be it enemy ranks or the ground to form a road or a to scoop out something. And to further complicate matters, I've often heard Canadians pronounce "out" and "about" more like "boot" (or "root") than the American way to saw "out" and "about", which is usually given as an "au" sound. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Canadian rising... the vowel is very clipped, and sounds nothing like "oot and aboot" to my ears! -- Flyguy649 ^talk 18:36, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

That's because you're used to it. I've heard some in the upper midwest take it even farther, to where "out" nearly rhymes with "oat", for example. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:38, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Nah, "about" and "boot" do not rhyme in general Canadian English. "Boot" and "root" do. --Kvasir (talk) 04:09, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Merriam-Websters says the word was borrowed from French in the 13th century, before the Great Vowel Shift, suggesting that it really "ought" to be /raʊt/. +Angr 18:47, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

EO indicates it came from words with just "u" in them.[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:52, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I work in publishing, where pages and other items for publication need to "route" from one person to another for approval. For some reason, this verb is always pronounced to rhyme with pout. This has been true in various companies where I have worked in Chicago and Boston. That said, for most people in my environment, the noun route is homophonous with root. Marco polo (talk) 20:16, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Related question: does router always rhyme with "pouter," or can it rhyme with "booter?" --Kjoonlee 23:58, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I say "route", as in "root" when it's a noun, but "rout" if it's a verb. I say "router" as in "pouter" and i've never heard anyone say "rooter". I'm in Calgary, Canada, btw. I can forgive the Americans, but when I hear "rout" (as a noun) on the local radio here it just makes me cringe. --Kvasir (talk) 04:39, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Here in the UK, the pronunciations are (generally - there's always someone...) as follows:

1. Rhymes with toot: journey taken

2. Rhymes with out: to decisively defeat. (generally spelt "rout")

3. Rhymes with out: to cut a groove in a piece of wood. (also generally spelt "rout") We do try and follow some rules - the "magic e" rule applies here, where an e at the end of the word lengthens the preceding vowel/vowel cluster.

In network computing, the word "router" is pronounced "rooter": in woodworking, the word "router" is pronounced to rhyme with "outer". (sorry I don't do IPA!) If you're a Londoner, the word "router" has no medial t! --TammyMoet (talk) 06:05, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Here in my neck of the woods, we "root" packages using either a "rooter" or a "r'out'er", depending on the time of day. The thing the package takes is more often than not a "r'out'", but sometimes a "root". I'd certainly never drive a "r'out'", but I may use "r'out'ing" software to determine my "root". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:34, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

My Aussie friends pronounce route (journey) to rhyme with "toot", but both the computer network device and woodworking tool to rhyme with "outer". This is quite unusual as Aussie & British pronunciation and spelling, are generally the same. I'm an ex-pat Aussie living in England and I've always pronounced the networking and woodworking items differently, as per TammyMoet above. When I left Australia, computer networks were in their infancy and routers in the office rare, which is probably why. --87.113.170.45 (talk) 14:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

German words that rhyme with "Strand"

Could someone please suggest to me some German words (along with their English translations) that rhyme with "Strand" (shore)? I'm trying to translate "Lover's Farewell" by A.P. Carter into German, and I'm currently stuck on a couple of lines near the end. Thanks in advance! 24.23.197.43 (talk) 21:26, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Here, try this German rhyming dictionary. There are many words in German that have the "and" sound at the end, hopefully one will be of use. Good luck with your translation. ThemFromSpace 21:49, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Some suggestions: Band, band, bekannt - unbekannt, benannt, bespannt, Brand (abgebrannt, ausgebrannt, verbrannt, etc.), Elephant, fand, gekannt, genannt, gesandt, gespannt, Hand, Kant, Kant', Krokant, Land, Ministrant, Passant, Pfand, Quant, Rand, rannt' (angerannt, gerannt, verrannt etc.), rasant, Sand, Schand', Schmand, spannt, spannt', Stand (Aufstand, Bestand, Verstand etc.), stand, Tand, vakant, Verband, verband, verkannt, Versandt, versandt, verspannt, verwandt, (Junker) Voland, Wand, wand. --84.140.18.3 (talk) 23:17, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Danke schoen! 24.23.197.43 (talk) 04:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Kant? :P Rimush (talk) 08:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Though written as a voiced consonant, word-final "d" in German is pronounced unvoiced, so "strand" (the German word, not the archaic English word of the same meaning) and Kant do rhyme.--Shird Fifty Eighd (Dork) 10:36, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I am aware of this. It just seemed funny that one should bring Kant into a poem entitled "Lover's Farewell" :D Rimush (talk) 11:05, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

<font: face=incredibly tiny and coloured the same as a huge blush of embarrassment>Realised that this what not why you were asking as I cycled to work today. My face was far more fluorescent than all of my "Day-Glo" safety outfit.</font>--Mr Stupidt Hedt (please add justified vituperation here) 11:48, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

In the Moritat von Mackie Messer (the original German version, not the English translation), there's the line liegt ein toter Mann am Strand, which is made to rhyme with den man Mackie Messer nennt. The rhyme proves that the dead man isn't lying just on some beach (German pronunciation: [ʃtʁant]) but rather on the Strand, of which the German approximated pronunciation is [stʁɛnt]. +Angr 11:36, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

!! I have always wondered about that! Thanks! --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 06:04, 25 April 2010 (UTC)