Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 April 20

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April 20

Usage

Is "more dearer" correct grammatically?? Like saying...."I am more dearer to him" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.235.54.67 (talk) 04:31, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

You can say "dearer" or "more dear" but "more dearer" is ungrammatical unless you have an exchange like this:

• I'm dear to him
• I'm dearer to him
• Well I'm more dearer to him. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 04:44, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

With respect, I don't think it would be grammatically correct even in such a context as this: since, as you say, "dearer" and "more dear" are essentially synonymous, they can't be combined. Either "even more dear", or "even dearer" would both be correct. That said, many people would use "more dearer" when speaking in a colloquial register - and perhaps ironically, knowing it to be incorrect - so one's position on the Prescriptivist<->Descriptivist grammatical spectrum* might affect one's stance on the question.

(* This can crudely be summarised as "Grammar has rules (but which ones?) that must be observed" versus "Grammar should only describe what people actually say, so anything goes.") 87.81.230.195 (talk) 10:03, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

IMHO more dearer would never be correct. Kittybrewster ☎ 14:38, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

You would only say "more dearer" if you're being funny. "More dearer" or "more better" or whatever are redundancies. "Even more dear" is how I would say it for the third line. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:16, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

While I would concur and comply with you, Bugs, "more better" or more accurately "mo' be'er" is, I believe, a colloqialism used un-ironically (un-funnily) in colloquial British black southern urban dialect. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 00:18, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't question that it's colloquial. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:21, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

On the other hand, the rules have changed since Shakespeare's time; his plays do regularly use double comparatives like this. In Hamlet, for instance, Polonius says "come you more nearer than your particular demands will touch it" (Act 2, Scene 1) and Hamlet says "your wisdom should show itself more richer" (Act 3, Scene 2). --Anonymous, 20:17 UTC, April 20/10.

And I think he had Marc Antony saying that Brutus' stab of Julius Caesar was "the most unkindest cut of all." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:23, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Just wanted to pipe in and say that I'm another person who thinks Aeusoes1's description of "more dearer" sounds natural, even though it might look redundant. --Kjoonlee 02:00, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I can imagine young children or even adolescents using this form of expression, but not most adults. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 08:24, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Names in Foreign Languages

I have heard there are certain foreign names that have a vulgar translation when pronounced in English but I'm curious of examples where it works the other way. Are there cases where someone with a common English language name (David, Fred,...) will be surprised to discover their name is offensive in Hindi, Malay, etc? TheFutureAwaits (talk) 14:27, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Brad Pitt's last name is a vulgar term for penis in Swedish. Gabbe (talk) 14:33, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Not English, but Akbar Zeb has a funny translation in Arabic. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:42, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

All I can think of is English first names that are offensive words in English itself, like Dick and Fanny. But I'm sure there are examples of the case you're looking for, too. Hmm... +Angr 15:02, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I suppose if you look at enough names and enough languages you can find plenty. My dad's name, "Ben", makes my Chinese friends giggle because it sounds like 笨, "stupid". rʨanaɢ (talk) 15:15, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

According to Mary Haas, Screaming Lord Sutch's last name would be offensive in the Nootka language[1]... -- AnonMoos (talk) 15:27, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I've found one example outside of the help desk so far. Apparently Sean Connery's last name sounds like connerie in French which translates to "bullshit." That must be slightly awkward when he attends a primiere in Cannes. TheFutureAwaits (talk) 15:49, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

But you asked for first names, not last names. If I had known last names were fair game too, I would have mentioned Johnny Depp, whose last name means "fool" or "idiot" in German (a fact he apparently knows and finds amusing). +Angr 16:07, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Charlton Heston supposedly was billed under a slightly altered last name in Greece due to vulgar connotations if transliterated as-is. W.C. Fields was billed as "Wm.C. Fields" in England, apparently because "W.C." was common shorthand for "water closet" (as Jack Paar discovered). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:14, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Could Dick Trickle's name possibly be worse in any other language ? StuRat (talk) 16:17, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

What about WADA head Dick Pound? -- Flyguy649 ^talk 18:32, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I've seen jokes based around Peter and péter. Although, the pronunciation is a bit of a stretch. Martlet1215 (talk) 18:24, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Marcia (rotten), Mona (vagina), Becca (penis) and Pippa (hand job) are quite vulgar words in Italian. Also, Troy is dangerously similar to troia (whore), as Ruth to rutto (burp). Puttanna Kanagal has a very funny name. And never swap the vowels in Glenda... --151.51.15.200 (talk) 18:22, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Ouch, that had to hurt if he ever went to Italy... TomorrowTime (talk) 12:31, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Pippa also means 'fuck' in Swedish. --Soman (talk) 03:17, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

"Alphonse" is a synonym of pimp in Norwegian. For that reason, the fictional character Alfons Åberg (Alfie Atkins) by Swedish author Gunilla Bergström had to be renamed "Albert Åberg" when published in Norwegian. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 18:39, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I suspect there are no people named Ross in Jamaica -- it sounds close to "Rass", ass, arse (but not in a good way). -- Flyguy649 ^talk 18:42, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Particularly in Jamaican English--达伟 (talk) 09:37, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

In languages using the Cyrillic alphabet, foreign names are usually transliterated based on their pronunciation in the source language, not on their spelling. So the English given name Gus (from Augustine or Gustav), pronounced /gʌs/ in English, would normally be transliterated into Bulgarian as Гъс (<Gâs>) /gɤs/. However, this is pronounced in the same way as the vulgar word гъз (<gâz>), meaning "arse(hole)". Therefore, the name is usually transliterated based on the English orthography as Гус (<Gus>) /gus/ (i.e. with the vowel of Enlgish "goose").

Another case is the current Russian PM's surname Путин (Putin), which sounds in Bulgarian as a derivation from путка (putka), diminutive путе (pute), a taboo word for "vagina". This is occasionally the subject of dumb jokes, as is the surname of tennis player Kurnikova, which sounds as a derivation from кур (kur), a taboo word for "penis". In Russian, "Putin" appears to be derived from путь (put'), "road", and "Kurnikova" from куры "chickens (as a species)". As mentioned in another thread recently, the modern Bulgarian meaning of the root 'kur' is actually derived from the meaning preserved in Russian (the same development as in English 'cock').--91.148.159.4 (talk) 20:27, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if this counts, but fans of the British soccer team Aston Villa were quite amused when they learned the new owner of their team is named Randy Lerner. In American English, "Randy" is just a (unisex) name, but in British English it means "sexually aroused." -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:18, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

It means that in American English too, but that hasn't reduced its popularity as a given name for both men (short for Randolph or Randall) and women (short for Miranda). +Angr 10:08, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Randy Savage!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Astronaut (talk • contribs) 14:07, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

A bit off-topic: there are the places Anus, Fucking, Petting, Kissing, and Dildo, though the former two of these are pronounced differently in the source languages than their homographous words are in English. The Jerker IKEA desk and the Fartfull IKEA workbench are interesting, too (and again, they are originally not pronounced as in English). --Магьосник (talk) 10:21, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

These places (and Mianus) definitely need to become each other's sister cities. +Angr 10:41, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

From the OP's question, and a little anecdote of mine, the name 'Dave' - short for 'David' - can get some smiles in Japan. A rather plumpishly porcine guy I worked with in a language school was called Dave, which, when pronounced by Japanese or written in katakana, becomes デーブ (deibu), and this can be (or was in his case) often shortened to デブ (debu), which means 'fatso', so all the kids called him 'debu-sensei', or 'fat teacher'. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:51, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Similarly, ladies in the JET Programme who usually go by the name of Deb, especially those of a fuller figure, are advised early to use a longer version of their name.--Shirt58 (talk) 10:28, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Let's see, there's Albert Pujols, for whom opposing team's fans have drawn the obvious comparison. Within English itself, there's Peter LaCock and Dick Pole, although those are more like double-phallic names, as Dick Cavett once remarked about Peter O'Toole. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:43, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Along the same lines, Dick van Dyke. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 23:36, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I was once told the English name "Nick" has amusing connotations in French. Exactly why it was amusing, I was never able to establish. Astronaut (talk) 14:04, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Italian equivalent of "Sieg Heil" and similar

If Germans greeted each other and/or their leader with phrases such as "Heil Hitler" and "Sieg Heil" during the Nazi era, what did Italians greet each other with during the Fascist era (if anything in particular)? I was attempting to compare and contrast the two eras, just knowing this factoid would help; Google has proved of little help, as has WP article space. Thanks, - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 19:51, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

There is Eja Eja Alalà, a fascist greeting/war exclamation created by D'annunzio.
The Eja part (sometimes written eia or ehia, pronunciated eh-ee-ah) is a tipical Italian exhortation nowadays strongly associated with Sardinian people. D'annunzio visited Sardinia in 1882 and probably took this tipical expression. Eja was originally a war cry of Spartan hoplites and other ancient greek warriors (it was present in Aeschylus and Plato) and was also used during the Middle Ages by crusaders.
Alalà was also a war/hunting cry of greek origin (from greek alalazo), it was present in Pindar and Euripides and later was used by Giosuè Carducci and Giovanni Pascoli.
This slogan was at first created by D'annunzio to replace hip hip hurrà (D'annunzio, like fascists, deeply despised the English language and intended to substitute foreign loanwords with truly Italian words, some examples are bar>mescita, sandwich>tramezzino, cognac>arzente, Whisky>acquavite, some of them still used) and its usage predates fascism: it was used by Arditi and during the occupation of Fiume. It was proposed for the first time by D'annunzio during a dinner at an aviation camp during the night of August 7 1918.
From the Italian fascism article:
Some Italian Fascism mottoes and slogans that taught the fascist citizen to abide responsibility to the State:

• Me ne frego (“I don’t give a damn!”): the Italian Fascist motto.
• Libro e moschetto — fascista perfetto (“Book and Musket — Perfect Fascist”)
• Viva la Morte (“Long live Death!”): sacrifice.
• Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato (“Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State”[54].
• Credere, Obbedire, Combattere (“Believe, Obey, Fight”)
• Se avanzo, seguitemi. Se indietreggio, uccidetemi. Se muoio, vendicatemi (“If I advance, follow me. If I retreat, kill me. If I die, avenge me”) Borrowed from French Royalist Gen. Henri de la Rochejaquelein.
• Viva Il Duce (“Long live the Leader”)
• 'War is to Man as Motherhood is to Woman."[55]
• Boia chi molla (“Death to those who abandon the struggle”)
• Molti nemici. Molto onore (“Many enemies equal much Honor”)

Maybe these pages are of your interest: [2], [3] --151.51.15.200 (talk) 20:35, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

There is also ave, not sure how widely used though. meltBanana 22:35, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

The one stereotypically assigned to fascists in ex-Yugoslavia cultural space is "Viva Il Duce", or just plain "Duce!" TomorrowTime (talk) 12:32, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Note also that the shorthand for "Viva Il Duce" is "VV", and this can sadly still be seen in modern day graffitti. TomorrowTime (talk) 12:35, 21 April 2010 (UTC)