Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 April 10

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April 10

Freemasonry

I remember back in high school at ethics studies class, one girl gave a presentation about Freemasonry. She started the presentation with "So what do Freemasons do then? Well, for one thing, they don't actually mason."

I understand however that Freemasonry started as an actual masonry guild. At what time, and how, did it then transform into the religious fraternal organisation it is today? JIP | Talk 16:29, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

The article History of Freemasonry goes some way towards addressing this issue. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.200.65.249 (talk) 17:18, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Seems to have happened somewhere between the Regius Poem (1390), which sets out workplace ethics, and the Matthew Cooke Manuscript (1450) which was distinctly mystical. Mind you, they would have been doing actual masonry at the same time. The Copiale cipher (1730s) is an example of elaborate concealment which might have been for the protection of a banned freemason society, or might merely have been to protect the trade secrets of a guild of ophthalmologists. I think the two purposes, trade secrets and secrecy as an end in itself, were thoroughly mixed up over several centuries.  Card Zero  (talk) 17:32, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

There is no single date on which Freemasonry shifted from being a guild of stone masons to a purely fraternal organization… rather, it was an evolutionary process that spanned several centuries (roughly from 1400 to 1700). It went in spurts, and the evolution took slightly different paths in different countries (example: in England vs in Scotland). And it is still evolving (the Freemasonry of today isn’t quite the same as it was in 1700… and today’s US Freemasonry is significantly different than today’s French Freemasonry). Blueboar (talk) 18:33, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

As I Understand It there is a difference between "operative" masons and "speculative" masons, Operative masons would be skilled enough for example laying the ceremonial corner stone of a building. Someone may have further details to the distinction between operative and speculative masons. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. (talk) 22:28, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

In modern terminology, ”Operative” refers to actual stone masonry while “Speculative” refers to the modern fraternity. Note that a speculative Mason might also be an operative Mason . Blueboar (talk) 22:58, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Knowing the Pope's name

Would a priest know the Pope's real name? For instance, John Paul II, whose name before he was Pope was Karol Józef Wojtyła. 86.143.101.46 (talk) 19:07, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Why wouldn't he? At the time of Wojtyla's selection as Pope he was "Cardinal Wojtyla". --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:19, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

There are many many different kinds of priest. I'm sure some of them couldn't care less about the Pope, but the Roman Catholic ones educated at a Seminary should certainly know the Pope's name. Shantavira|^{feed me} 19:40, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

It's not a secret; he's the pope, not Batman. Or is he? Maybe Papal name will tell us. Matt Deres (talk) 19:50, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Presumably, Catholic priests would want to know who the Cardinals are, while other denomination priests would know only if they're interested or happened to hear it on the news. These titular names are a bit like the British kings Edward VIII and George VI, who were known to the family as David and Bertie respectively. Or for that matter, Cary Grant, who was known to his family as Archie Leach. --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:01, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

See regnal name. Popes are a little different from British monarchs in that they always select an entirely different regnal name from their own, Pope Paul VI for example, had the given names Giovanni Battista Enrico Antonio Maria (no Pope Maria yet!). Our article says that the custom started in AD 533 when a pope called Mercurius, named after the Roman god Mercury, thought that John would be a more appropriate name.

King George VI was unusual in not using his own first name and that was because he was advised that Albert sounded too Germanic only 20 years after the Great War, George being his fourth given name. Edward VIII used his own first name, David being one of his other given names which was only used by family and friends; he had been officially Prince Edward since birth. Alansplodge (talk) 21:37, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Or maybe because he didn't want to be confused with "Prince Albert in a can". --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:52, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

If you have Prince Albert in a can, please let him out. <small 2603:6081:1C00:1187:915E:B93B:EF32:7D3E (talk) 02:40, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Good joke, Bugs, but to avoid anyone being factually misled, Prince Albert became Edward VII in 1901, while the brand was introduced only in 1907, so that couldn't have been his motive. </pedantry> {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.200.65.249 (talk) 16:01, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

When a new pope is elected, it is a huge news story, everywhere. Priests do not have to wait to be told by their bishop who the new pope is. They hear it on radio, see/hear it on TV, read it on social media. The world isn't just told what the new papal name is, but who he was before being elected, where he is from, what sort of reputation he has, etc. Their parishioners ask them their opinion of the new guy, and it's their job to give a bland non-answer, but at least know who it is they're talking about. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:52, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

The name is announced on the new Pope's election as part of the Habemus papam formula: Dominum Georgium Marium Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiæ Cardinalem Bergoglio.^[1]  --Lambiam 22:28, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

A Roman Catholic priest would likely know the Pope's birth name, but there's certainly no requirement for him to. How could there be, when priests are ordained for life? They wouldn’t defrock a 90-year-old priest in a nursing home just because he can't remember who the Pope is, let alone recognize his birth name. 24.76.103.169 (talk) 23:52, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

• Again, the OP is asking questions about a priest, and not "priests in general" (they also never specify Roman Catholic and not other priests, but whatever). In a large enough population (and 400000+ is the number of Roman Catholic priests), there is likely to be a priest who doesn't know the birth name of the pope. We went over this on BOTH of the last two questions the OP asked. I'm not entire convinced they are reading these responses. --Jayron32 11:11, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

  When I read, "What are the duties of a priest?",^[2] I interpret this as a question about "priests in general", although in this context – the text is a non-denominational Christian catechism – Christian priests in general.  --Lambiam 11:38, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

  It's hard to say what the OP means, because they have never responded to say whether our answers are useful, or if we have mis-interpreted his questions. "Would a priest know the Pope's real name?". At least one does, yes. On the other side, I would bet that at least one also does not. --Jayron32 11:59, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

• Depends on which Pope you are talking about. Most will know the birth name of Pope Francis, but I doubt many will know the birth name of Pope Tawadros II. Blueboar (talk) 13:04, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
• Why are we assuming that the priest in question is a Christian priest?--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:29, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
  • The IP's other questions are kind of a tipoff. --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:28, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
  • They don't, but when we have asked, many times, for the OP to clarify which priests they are referring to, they have refused to do so. --Jayron32 11:53, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

In the Father Ted episode Night of the Nearly Dead, Eoin Mclove asked Father Ted Crilly on a quiz a general knowledge question before Ted can get his cash prize. And the question was 'John Paul II, what was his name before he became Pope?' Ted didn't know the Pope's name and simply guessed 'Jim?' 86.143.101.46 (talk) 19:08, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Is that series a documentary? --←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:16, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No its one of the funniest British comedies ever made, particularly the episode about Bishop Brennan. scope_creep^Talk 11:31, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Clearly. I just wondered if the OP understood that. :) --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:40, 13 April 2022 (UTC)