Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 November 25

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November 25

EU Parliament resolution on Blasphemy in Pakistan

Greetings,

Here is one news report in Pakistan daily which takes note of 'point no 8' in April 27, 2021 resolution of European Parliament expressing displeasure over '..Pakistan’s Minister of State for Parliamentary Affairs, Ali Khan, calling for people who commit blasphemy to be beheaded;..'

When I tried to cross check for original passed/adopted resolution, I came across this PDF link which tallies with the above mentioned news paper report. But then there is, this one more link (texts tabled) which differs in text and seem to miss earlier discussed text about the minister. Either of the link does not seem to have clear mention of being 'passed' or 'adopted' resolution.

So how do we understand which one of above is finally adopted resolution of European Parliament? Or is there any third link for passed and adopted resolutions?

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 09:22, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Okay I searched and looked into thoroughly again myself. The second link which I had got confused with, came out to be of texts tabled which did not have statement criticizing Pakistan' minister Ali Khan, but it seems had been added subsequently in final "adopted text" as per this link which clearly marks Texts adopted.

Second point was to have one more source confirming the said Pakistani Minister indeed tweeted so, Got this Reuters news report which confirms the tweet issue:

Quote: "State Minister for Parliamentary Affairs Ali Muhammad Khan...Khan defended a now-deleted Twitter post in which he said: “There is only one punishment for insulting the Prophet - chopping off the head”....He stressed he believed in “legal procedures and court proceedings” for anyone accused of blasphemy and said Twitter had asked him to delete the post.." as appeared in Pakistan excludes religious sect from minority commission ~ Reuters dated May 7, 2020.

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 03:34, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

How to confirm the tweet

There is one more news report by 'nayadaur.tv (Pakistan)' giving link to the alleged tweet by State Minister Ali Muhamamd Khan, but the link does not open now; Idk it it has been deleted. Can some one help in confirming the tweet from any alternate media?

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 11:34, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

The wording seems to have been recast. The various allegations seem to have been given their own paragraph numbers and new ones inserted. The blasphemy law is dealt with at paragraph D. There is a general request for repeal at paragraph 10. Paragraph 3 urges the abolition of the death penalty: Khan's outburst is not mentioned. The GSP issue is at paragraph 11. The website you can't access says this:

A section of Pakistani Twitter was once again actively spreading hate against the Ahmaddiya community, on Wednesday, following the news of their community's representation in the Minorities Rights Commission. However, the news was subsequently denied by Religious Affairs Minister Noor ul Haq Qadri who said that Ahmadis do not consider themselves non-Muslims which is why they cannot be included in a body comprising minority representatives.

State minister Ali Muhammad Khan also said that the community has not accepted themselves to be a minority, but if they do, the government will be inclusive of their opinions. He then proceeded to post a tweet with the extremist slogan that a severed head is the only punishment for blasphemy.

- Ali Muhammad Khan, April 29, 2020

Social media influencer and actor, Hamza Ali Abbasi, also shed some light on the matter by saying that the anti-Ahmaddiya narrative is hateful and does not stand by the teachings of Islam even, 'We were just here to spread the message of Allah and his messenger, what are we doing here?' he tweeted. Referring to the thread, Abbasi also said that Pakistanis have already spread so much hatred against the Ahmaddiya community in the past, and now they're also calling them 'traitors', which will endanger their everyday lives even more.

Hamza Al Abbasi

Soon my nation will have to decide if they want if they want 2 listen 2 Quran/RasoolAllahSW & be witness to his Deen 2 the world in peace or stick with past colonial reactionary misinterpretations of Islam, the toxic US vs YOU mindset tht lead to the end of Bani Israels promise with Allah.

Hamza Ali Abbasi

This is trending on #1 in Pakistan. We r not content with declaring a group of ppl as Non Muslims, we now want to declare them TRAITORS? Hum ne tau Allah aur Allah ke aakhri Rasool SAW ka paigham dena tha duniya ko bass, lekin hum yeh kya ker rahay hain.

4:31 AM. Apr 30, 2020

Okay I searched and looked into thoroughly again myself. The second link which I had got confused with, came out to be of texts tabled which did not have statement criticizing Pakistan' minister Ali Khan, but it seems had been added subsequently in final "adopted text" as per this link which clearly marks Texts adopted.

Second point was to have one more source confirming the said Pakistani Minister indeed tweeted so, Got this Reuters news report which confirms the tweet issue:

Quote: "State Minister for Parliamentary Affairs Ali Muhammad Khan...Khan defended a now-deleted Twitter post in which he said: “There is only one punishment for insulting the Prophet - chopping off the head”....He stressed he believed in “legal procedures and court proceedings” for anyone accused of blasphemy and said Twitter had asked him to delete the post.." as appeared in Pakistan excludes religious sect from minority commission ~ Reuters dated May 7, 2020.

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 03:34, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Idiomatic translation from German to English

Wegen ihres Kontaktes mit den Sowjets wurden die Brüsseler und Berliner Gruppen von der Spionageabwehr und der Gestapo unter dem irreführenden Namen Rote Kapelle zusammengefasst. Ein Funker, der mit seinen Fingern Morsecodezeichen klopfte, war in der Geheimdienstsprache ein Pianist. Eine Gruppe von ,Pianisten‘ bildete eine ,Kapelle‘, und da die Morsezeichen aus Moskau gekommen waren, war die ,Kapelle‘ kommunistisch und damit rot. Durch dieses Missverständnis wurde die Basis gelegt, auf der die Widerstandsgruppe später als den Sowjets dienende Spionageorganisation in der Geschichtsschreibung behandelt wurde, bis das zu Beginn der 1990er Jahre korrigiert werden konnte. Das von der Gestapo geschaffene Organisationskonstrukt Rote Kapelle hat in dieser Form nie existiert.

„Ein von Leopold Trepper geleitetes Netz der ‚Roten Kapelle‘ in Westeuropa existierte also nicht. Die verschiedenen Gruppen in Belgien, Holland und Frankreich arbeiteten weitgehend unabhängig voneinander.“

Die Gestapo ermittelt unter dem Sammelnamen „Rote Kapelle“ und will es vor allem als eine Spionageorganisation der Sowjetunion beurteilt wissen. Diese Bezeichnung, die die Gruppen um Harnack und Schulze-Boysen auf Kontakte zum sowjetischen Nachrichtendienst reduziert, prägt auch noch nach 1945 das Beweggründe und Ziele verfälschende Bild in der deutschen Öffentlichkeit. Ende 1942 fällt das Reichskriegsgericht die ersten Todesurteile; insgesamt werden mehr als fünfzig Mitglieder dieser Gruppe ermordet.

Hi Folks!! I know this one is quite a big block of text, but if your up for it, can you please translate it to English. Thanks. scope_creep^Talk 18:02, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Here's the Google Translate version for starters. It looks as if it needs a little polishing, which I will do now.

Because of their contact with the Soviets, the Brussels and Berlin counter-espionage and Gestapo groups were grouped together under the misleading name of the Rote Kapelle. A radio operator who tapped Morse code characters with his fingers was a pianist in the secret service language. A group of "pianists" formed a "band", and since the Morse code had come from Moscow, the "band" was communist and therefore red. This misunderstanding laid the foundation on which the resistance group would later be treated as a Soviet espionage organization until this could be corrected in the early 1990s. The Red Chapel organizational structure created by the Gestapo never existed in this form.

“A network of the 'Red Chapel' in Western Europe led by Leopold Trepper did not exist. The various groups in Belgium, Holland and France worked largely independently of one another. "

The Gestapo is investigating under the collective name "Red Orchestra" and wants it to be judged above all as an espionage organization of the Soviet Union. This designation, which the groups around Harnack and Schulze-Boysen reduced to contacts with the Soviet intelligence service, continued to shape the image of the German public, which distorted the motives and goals, even after 1945. At the end of 1942, the Reich Court Martial passed the first death sentences; in total, more than fifty members of this group are murdered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a00:23a8:0:3d00:6967:d0fd:946f:cf6d (talk • contribs) 18:30, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Rote Kapelle is almost always translated as Red Orchestra. And I think Scope Creep wanted a human translation that would catch subtleties that Google Translate might have missed. 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:69F6 (talk) 00:03, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Some more improvements:

• the Brussels and Berlin counter-espionage and Gestapo groups were grouped together
  → the Brussels and Berlin groups were grouped together by the Counterintelligence and Gestapo
  [A less literal but more readable translastion is given by the active voice:
  → the Counterintelligence and Gestapo grouped the Brussels and Berlin groups together ]
• Rote Kapelle → Rote Kapelle (Red Orchestra)
• formed a "band" → formed a "Kapelle" (orchestra)
• the "band" was communist → the "orchestra" was communist
• organization until → organization, until
• Red Chapel organizational structure → construct of a Red Orchestra organization
• in this form → as such
• “A network of the 'Red Chapel' → "So a 'Red Orchestra' network
• is investigating → identifies it
• judged → viewed
• which the groups around Harnack and Schulze-Boysen reduced→ which reduces the groups around Harnack and Schulze-Boysen
• continued to shape the image of the German public, which distorted the motives and goals, even after 1945
  → continues to shape the public image in Germany also after 1945, distorting their motives and goals
• passed → passes

 --Lambiam 13:04, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:69F6 Thanks for that, but it isn't software translated text i'm looking for. @Lambiam: So it is just using the text above and swapping in the translated text immediately above in its place? scope_creep^Talk 14:28, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Lambiam: That fine. They fit perfect. Thanks. scope_creep^Talk 16:14, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes; applying these and a few more minor tweaks gives us:

Because of their contact with the Soviets, the Counterintelligence and Gestapo bundled the Brussels and Berlin groups together under the misleading name of Rote Kapelle (Red Orchestra). A radio operator who tapped Morse code characters with his fingers was a pianist in the language of the Secret Service. A group of "pianists" formed a "Kapelle" (orchestra), and since the Morse code had come from Moscow, the "orchestra" was communist and therefore red. This misinterpretation laid the foundation on which the resistance group would later be treated as a Soviet espionage organization, until this could be corrected in the early 1990s. The construct of a Red Orchestra organization created by the Gestapo never existed as such.

"So a 'Red Orchestra' network in Western Europe led by Leopold Trepper did not exist. The various groups in Belgium, Holland and France worked largely independently of one another."

The Gestapo identifies it under the collective name "Red Orchestra" and wants it to be viewed primarily as an espionage organization of the Soviet Union. This designation, which reduces the groups around Harnack and Schulze-Boysen to contacts with the Soviet intelligence service, continues to shape the public image in Germany also after 1945, distorting their motives and goals. At the end of 1942, the Reich Court Martial passes the first death sentences; in total, more than fifty members of this group are murdered.

It seems then to me an acceptable translation – although more eyes wouldn't hurt. (I'm not a native speaker of either language.)  --Lambiam 16:22, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

", Counterintelligence and the Gestapo" Clarityfiend (talk) 22:32, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

The final paragraph would probably be more idiomatic in the past tense.--Wikimedes (talk) 06:28, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

That paragraph is a quotation from a different source, which employs the historic present. The tense change, if these paragraphs are read as a single narrative, is equally jarring in German. I see, BTW, that the original source has a subtly but significantly different text:

Im Sommer 1942 wird die Widerstandsorganisation um Harnack und Schulze-Boysen aufgedeckt. Die Gestapo ermittelt gegen sie unter dem Sammelnamen „Rote Kapelle“ und will sie vor allem als eine Spionageorganisation der Sowjetunion beurteilt wissen.

The first, omitted sentence establishes the context, and the feminine object sie refers to Widerstandsorganisation, which is feminine in German. The preposition gegen changes the meaning: ermitteln + gegen means "to investigate". In translation:

In the summer of 1942 the resistance organization around Harnack and Schulze-Boysen is uncovered. The Gestapo investigates it under the collective name "Red Orchestra" and wants it to be viewed primarily as an espionage organization of the Soviet Union.

 --Lambiam 12:54, 29 November 2021 (UTC)