Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 June 15

Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

June 15

Captain Ford, Hawaiian Cavalry

Trying to find who the Captain Ford mentioned in this is. My guess is Seth Porter Ford but can't find any direct references. KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:31, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

→It's very feasible - I too had trouble finding a direct reference to any cavalryman of Captain Ford as well. There is a book who cites the same newspaper article but also points to Ford as "Dr. Ford" Here (page 59, with 86 being a snippet of the Polynesian article) Definitely shows the authors of the newspaper writing to an audience of someone who knew the islands and people. Andyhill7 (talk) 20:18, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Captain de Marigney of the Alcibiade,

Trying to find the full name of a Captain de Marigney of the French brig of war Alcibiade. KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:31, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

A. Enguerrand de Marigny (different spelling) [1]
Sleigh (talk) 00:57, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:24, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Japanese prince studying in London in 1894

Were there any Japanese princes studying in London in 1894? Also who was the Japanese prince abroad the Japanese cruiser Naniwa in 1893? Most likely different people. It would have been one of the princes of the Shinnōke and Ōke branches. KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:53, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

For the Diamond Jubilee of Queen Victoria in 1897, "it was decided to send a delegation headed by Prince Arisugawa (Takehito Shinno no Maya) who had completed his education as a naval officer in England, being the first prince of the blood to study abroad". [2] Not sure if that's your man. Alansplodge (talk) 10:26, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, its not him, he studied at Greenwich in 1881 [3] (see footnote 11). Alansplodge (talk) 10:53, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

• ...it was said that on board the Naniwa came Prince Komatsu as a cadet, (afterward Prince Higashifushimi Yorihito, Fleet-Admiral) who was said to have been the one for whom King Kalakaua once planned a matrimonial alliance with Princess Kaiulani. Wakukawa, E. K. (1938). A history of the Japanese people in Hawaii. p. 60.

• H.I.H. Prince Komatsu (Junior) and Count Kawamura left Ujina yesterday for Korea on board the transport Nagato Maru. His Imperial Highness is a Lieutenant in the Navy, and has just been re-called from Europe where he was traveling incognito. He is going to resume his post on board the Naniwa Kan. "Letters From Hiroshima". The Japan Weekly Mail. 13 October 1894.

• Can't find that "Count Mishima" as he was traveling passed thru London (don't know if it's relevant), but Saint Petersburg, Istanbul, New York, possibly Vancouver and/or San Francisco

Was Prince Arisugawa Tanehito or his father Prince Arisugawa Takehito ever on the Naniwa? KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:31, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Per The North - China Herald and Supreme Court & Consular Gazette (1870-1941); Shanghai [Shanghai]30 Apr 1897: 759. (viewed through ProQuest; I am sorry I cannot give you a link. It was my only ProQuest hit for both Arisugawa and Naniwa.): We have received Japan papers with dates from Yokohama to the 21st, Kobe the 22nd, and Nagasaki the 26th inst.— … Rear-Admiral H.I.H. Prince Arisugawa Takehito is ordered to England to attend the Diamond Jubilee.—The Naniwa Kan left Yokohama for Honolulu on the 20th, with five newspaper correspondents on board.—

I am unclear from the formatting if this means the Prince was on the Naniwa or not (nor whether Naniwa Kan is the same ship as Naniwa). The column consists of a whole lot of sentences with dashes between each one. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 22:57, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Earliest Chinese script found outside of China

Were there any early Chinese scripts (such as imprinted on trade goods) discovered outside of China dating before Han Dynasty? If not what was the earliest artifact containing Chinese script found outside of China. 47.39.38.154 (talk) 07:23, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Hanja is a Korean script adapted from Chinese writing systems and predates the Han dynasty by several centuries. --Jayron32 00:51, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

The earliest artifact with Hanmun in Korea dates to a sword in Pyongyang in 222BC, around the time of the dynasty’s founding not several centuries before the Han. Korea would have been influenced by the kingdom of Yan during the Warring States.47.39.38.154 (talk) 19:37, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

What exactly do you mean by "outside of China"? Outside of pre-Han China? Or outside of modern China? 199.66.69.67 (talk) 08:15, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

I mean outside the Sino-sphere of influence. In the same way Indus seals were found in Mesopotamia. 47.39.38.154 (talk) 19:37, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Short stories in the voice of a psychiatrist/ counsellor

I remember reading a (fiction) book that consisted of short stories or anecdotes recounted in the first person by a psyhciatrist or a counsellor. I remember two plotlines in particular:

• a woman who was a fabulist who made up stories, claiming to have been on a date with a man called M who had only one arm
• a young man who had been babied by his nanny until the age of 18 and who couldn't build a romantic relationship with anyone, who was eventually advised just to date himself and found that that worked; it later turned out he had a missing twin so was really just searching for himself.

Can anyone remind me what this book is? Amisom (talk) 08:16, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Basic philosophy of politics

Is it correct to say that politics reduced to its bare core, is a debate on what natural human nature is and how to organise society from knowing that?

I know how to organise society will likely always be up for debate but are there still debates on what natural human nature is or is that generally agreed upon with the scientific knowledge we have today? Clover345 (talk) 09:36, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello, Clover345. There is certainly still a debate on what human nature is. I'm just reading Humankind, by Rutger Bregman, in which he explores several of the events that have strongly favoured a Hobbesian view of human nature (that it is 'nasty, brutish and short' until Leviathan - government - comes along to control us), and shows that each of them has been significantly misreported and altered: he is championing a view closer to that of Rousseau, that the earth was a paradise for humans until we got agriculture and cities. --ColinFine (talk) 11:32, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, that is interesting. I assume modern day science has contributed to this discussion? But I suppose it is quite difficult to prove what human nature is? Clover345 (talk) 11:51, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Politics is about appealing to society. Government is about organizing society, if you're elected/appointed. Politics still matters as far as passing bills and winning reelection goes, but that's about it. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:58, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Per InedibleHulk, politics is primarily the skill in convincing people to accept your leadership; if you have an idea about how an organization of any kind should do things, politics is the skills and methods by which you convince people that the organization should be run your way. Politics shows up in state government, but it exists in any and all organizations. The Oxford definition has this nuance, The activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power. While we often use politics to refer to the governance of a country, more broadly speaking it has to do with the governance of any human endeavour, and the second part of that definition is the functional part of politics that makes it different from governance itself, the part about the "especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power" Governments pass and enforce laws, the political part comes in two different ways there 1) Convincing people your laws are better than alternatives and 2) Passing laws that will convince people to continue to support you. --Jayron32 00:41, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

We should make a distinction between politics (1) as she is practised; (2) as these practices are analyzed by politicologists; and (3) political theories developed by political philosophers, from Plato to Aristotle to Hobbes to Locke to Hume to Rousseau to Proudhon to Kropotkin to Bregman. As to the latter, assumptions about human nature do indeed play a large role, assumptions that should be challenged. Even the assumption that there is such a thing as "human nature" should, in my opinion, be challenged. If that assumption is unwarranted, any statement of the form "By nature, humans are ..." (fill in the blanks) is meaningless and not worth arguing about. Certainly, humans have displayed a formidable malleability and plasticity in their ability to adopt to very different societal and cultural conditions. This is particularly true if the moulding starts at an early age. Alien visiting ethologists studying humans born into a nasty dog-eat-dog world may think humans are selfish and brutish by nature. If the environment into which these humans are born is cooperative and caring, these alien visitors may come to the conclusion that the human species is naturally peaceful and altruistic.  --Lambiam 14:51, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Every single scientific article or book that I can think of that uses the term "human nature" deals with a specialized and different aspect of human nature. When it comes to general claims regarding human nature, all I come up with are various philosophers, not scientists. Star Lord - 星爵 (talk) 20:03, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Madame Palmyre

What was Madame Palmyre's first name, and when did she die? Her article does not say, and Google mention her many times without those facts. It seems she and Madame Vignon (who also lack full name and year of death) was the top sfashion designers of Paris at the time, so it would be interesting to know. Thanks!--92.35.226.62 (talk) 19:30, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

This is NOT the Madame Palmyre you are looking for

.

Interestingly, there looks to be at least two famous Madame Palmyres, apparently, and the one you want is the less well known, and Google searches are showing a LOT of interference from the other one. This article describes the more famous one, a restaurateur and LGBTQ advocate from the late 19th century known for be the subject of drawings by Henri Toulouse-Lautrec. That Madame Palmyre was born "Palmire Louise Dumont", and does not appear to have been a fashion designer in any meaningful way. I'm still looking for your Madame Palmyre. --Jayron32 00:25, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Further confusion is caused by the fact that Palmyre is the French name for the city of Palmyra in Syria. It seems an unlikely French surname; perhaps a nom de plume (or is it nom d'aiguille)? Alansplodge (talk) 14:03, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

I’m finding a ton of references that mention her as a couturière in Paris, but so far not one that includes a first name or dates of birth/death. In case they are useful to you for adding to the article:

• Chronique de 1831 à 1862 [4] this obliquely written court gossip piece from May 22, 1837, in Paris, refers to “the great Mademoiselle Palmyre, the famous couturière” being invited to Fontainebleau (that is, the royal residence), to work on a dress (or 80 dresses?) after a German pattern that the writer feels is not a success.
• Revue des lectures [5] describes her as a couturière in 1840 with “posh clients”.
• Napoléon III et la reine Victoria [6] describes her as the couturière of the Queen of Belgium (a daughter of French Emperor Louis Philippe I) and of the queen’s niece (can’t read name in snippet view) between 1838 and 1857. This one also mentions her fashion house being under the name Palmyre et Legrand at one point.
• The Age of Worth: Couturier to the Empress Eugénie [7] describes her as employed by the royal family to make evening dresses for the younger princesses, as making some of the 54-dress trousseau of Empress Eugenie (who was married in January 1853), and that famous designer Charles Frederick Worth assessed her work as “over-decorated masterpieces”. (Yeah, he was her competitor.)
• L'intermédiaire des chercheurs et curieux [8] (says that in 1857, her house was at 15 rue Laffitte and Empress Eugenie, the Duchess of Alba and Queen Isabelle of Spain were her clients.
• Other passing references, some in English: [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15]. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 23:07, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Abrahamish stories in ancient Semitic countries,nations,cities/tribes or even other ethnic groups beside Semite

Did ancient nations like Carthage, Tyre, or even Sumer have an Abraham or Abram legend? If so, did any of them have a name change akin to Abram---->Abraham? What about child sacrifice in the corresponding legend? Was it forbidden "at the very last moment?"144.35.45.54 (talk) 23:00, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Can we have more information about what you're asking? I'm not sure what you're going for. 1. I'm not aware of Abraham having parallels in other peoples' legends like eg Samson 2. There was child sacrifice in Carthage but we don't have hardly any info on their legendary characters, and I don't know about Tyre or Sumer 3. Are you most concerned about the binding of Isaac? It appears that in the original story, Isaac was sacrificed, but later they changed the story so that he was spared. That is, the bits from the source that appears to be the oldest don't mention his name after the binding. Then a few narratives were woven together. My take is that the story of Abraham is from when child sacrifice was cool in God's eyes, and it was written down later when child sacrifice was not cool in God's eyes. Temerarius (talk) 04:39, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

For a connection between Hinduism and Judaism, see our aricle Hinduism and Judaism. Note in particular this statement: 'David Flusser says that the tale of Abraham has many similarities with a certain story from the Upanishads, stating that "One can easily discover parallels in the Upanishads to the Abraham legend".'  --Lambiam 14:13, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

See ABRAHAM AND THE UPANISHADS and Parallel Teachings in Hinduism and Christianity. Alansplodge (talk) 17:38, 16 June 2020 (UTC)