Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 August 10

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August 10

Does GDPR affect US companies that happen to have EU customers or even just visitors to their website?

This article is a bit confusing: http://www.seatrade-cruise.com/news/news-headlines/law-firm-hfw-asks-why-should-international-cruise-lines-comply-with-the-gdpr.html

"or if it monitors the behaviour of individuals within the EEA (for example via cookies)"

When the company is 100% American, why should a cruiseline obey to European law when someone from the EEA happens to visit their site? What if Vietnam decides to tax $1 per cookie placed when a resident from Vietnam visits the site? Joepnl (talk) 00:52, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

In answer to your headline question, yes. It's the reason I can't access the LA Times any more. The theory is that websites offering services to EU citizens have to abide by EU privacy standards, since, in a sense, by serving content to people in the EU they're on EU turf. They can of course choose not to operate there. You might compare it to Google's reported work to produce a service China will accept. Or you might wonder what would happen if the US started restricting 1st Amendment rights to individuals, and EU sites serving US customers were no longer allowed to censor their content. Probably a bigger topic than the reference desk can help with, but there it is › Mortee _talk 01:23, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

To try answer the specific question: "What if Vietnam decides to tax $1 per cookie placed when a resident from Vietnam visits the site?" Most likely, all sites for which this arrangement would make them loose money, would make sure they stop being available to any IP address from Vietnam, or, they would make a Vietnam version that doesn't use cookies. This is speculation, but I suspect it would significantly reduce the Vietnamese people's access to the internet.

Some sites might ignore the law altogether, if they have 0 assets in Vietnam that can be seized, but its senior management could get arrested for tax evasion next time they visit Vietnam. Also Vietnam could issue an international arrest warrant (in cases there are other countries that have an bi-lateral agreements with Vietnam to arrest people who break Vietnamese law) for the senior managers of the company owning the sites that refuse to pay the tax. --Lgriot (talk) 13:52, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

To be sure, I used "Vietnam" as a country of which I know nothing, it could be any country that has laws different from what I'm used to. For instance, I could make a website that makes fun of a dictator of country X. Of course, when I'd visit X they can do something about it, but I'm still not sure why for instance the LA Times thinks it should follow rules made by the EU. Which judge would tell the LA Times to stop giving access? US judges can't be expected to understand each and every law in the world, and IMHO, they are not even supposed to. Joepnl (talk) 15:36, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

We understood that you were just giving a random example, and my answer was going along with it, for the sake of consistency. The principle still applies, it doesn't matter the country: the management of the LA times don't want to break EU law, not because a US judge would tell them off (US judges do not have jurisdiction), but because an EU judge could, and a vacation in Europe is nice thing that one might want to do one day. Giving the finger at EU law is not a great idea, especially if the revenue from Europe is negligible anyway (I can't imagine they are making a ton of money from ads on their site that are visible from Europe, let's face it the LA times readership is mostly American). Better avoid any legal issue now at little cost than having to hire lawyers in a foreign country later. --Lgriot (talk) 14:21, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Dmitry Sklyarov found out to the hard way the tricky issues surrounding jurisdictional issues when visiting foreign countries. (In case you're lazy to read the article, this is an example as is all my examples of someone who was arrested in the US even though they lived in and their work that results in the allegations occurred outside the US.)

And Fat Leonard found out the hard way that the US may even lure you to them. Although the wacky war ship idea was abandoned and it doesn't take a genius to know bribing US officials is not going to be popular with their government [1]. (His case is also interesting because there was a reasonable prospect of extradition, but it was likely to be a mess given his connections and wealth, as the Kim Dotcom saga has somewhat shown.)

But other cases like this one [2] [3] show that the US government doesn't only lure people to some part of the US in bribery cases. While some of the sources make a big deal over 'national security' issues and 'stealing' it isn't impossible that the person involved had little direct contact with US entities and that all the software was copied from outside the US. I strongly suspect that the US doesn't care about whether the person actually had any real direct dealings with US entities, their primary concern is that the rights of the US software companies are allegedly being violated and even if all those violations are outside the US. (Although they'd probably find whatever evidence they can of US connections to bolster their case.) Perhaps most significantly, I think there's a good chance Systems Tool Kit as it's now called is still widely available and used even in places like North Korea and Iran.

Note in the LA Times example, issues for management or the papers own staff aside, major news papers even ones with a local focus often have to cooperate with foreign news agencies and correspondents. Governments can make this difficult if they want to. There is a reason why the US sanctions on Iran (or for that matter Cuba) are so significant despite there being many big non US companies.

Nil Einne (talk) 05:56, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

BTW based on these sources, the owner of LA Times hasn't commented whether they intend to comply or block indefinitely. Or major publishers only Lee Enterprises have said they have no plans [4] [5]. Nil Einne (talk) 05:41, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Re the comment above on cruise lines, the cruise lines may be American, most of the cruise ships were built elsewhere and are flagged elsewhere. That leads to some restrictions on their itineraries, see Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886. There are a couple of American built, American flagged, American staffed that generally operate in Hawaii.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:15, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Identity of photographer

Can anyone with a good eye with cursive handwriting tell me who the photographer of this photo? The photographer would have been working in New York in the 1870s.KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:06, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Indications are that the photographer was either Jeremiah Gurney or maybe his son Benjamin Gurney. The Findagrave record for Benjamin has his picture, with that same signature.[6] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:23, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:58, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

There is this version with an address. Would that help in pinpointing if it is the father or son? KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:00, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

That would require some effort to figure out, and even then it could be somewhat of a guess. For what it's worth, the 1880 New York City directory shows Jeremiah as an "artist" and Benjamin as a "photographer". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:21, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Looking in newspapers.com in 1874, for Christmas day it mentions Kalakaua and his entourage planning to be "photographed by Gurney", though it doesn't say which one. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:32, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

The 1874 NYC city directory I think has the answer. There's an ad for Benj. Gurney, Artist Photographer, est. 1840, 827 Broadway corner 18th Street, Successor to J. Gurney & Son (late of Fifth Ave.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:42, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

And the Herald for Mar 22, 1874, has an announcement that J. Gurney & Son has been dissolved and that the firm is being revived under the sole ownership of Benjamin Gurney. Based on what I've found, I conclude that Benjamin Gurney (or potentially someone else in his shop, unnamed) is the author of the photo. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:55, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Awesome, thank you for the detailed research. KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:03, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

"High King of Scotland"

Hello, I hope I wasn't too bold with this good faith edit. However, to tell the truth, I actually found the title "High King of Scotland" neither in Macbeth, King of Scotland (except for the title of the book High King of Scotland 1040–57 given under "Further reading") nor in the relevant article on styles of the monarchs of Scotland, but only in some pertinent Google Books references. But has the designation "High King of Scotland" officially been used by Scottish monarchs? If so, wouldn't it make sense to add a corresponding paragraph in Style of the monarchs of Scotland? Unfortunately, I don't have approprate references at hand to properly check that issue myself. Hoping for your support--Neufund (talk) 22:31, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

The only mention I can find of a 'High King of Scotland' is a single use of the phrase in the Dindsenchas, which was penned by one or more Irishmen. It was in reference to a King Ubthaire of Iona, who is actually not listed by Scottish sources as even a myth. The English translation of Chronicle of the Kings of Alba does not use the phrase "High King" anywhere. Like you, I also found lots of links and citations to books that use this phrase, but I can find nothing to suggest that it was ever a contemporary style. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:24, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

You link to Style of the monarchs of Scotland, but that article itself lists three Scottish kings, including Macbeth, who were given the title aird-ri Alban (and variant spellings), i.e. "High King of Scotland", by Irish sources, which it specifies in each case. It also says Malcolm III called himself Malcolmus Dei gratia Scottorum basileus in a charter, and translates basileus as "high king", which is perhaps a little more tendentious. --Antiquary (talk) 08:41, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Stokes translated "aird-ri Alban" as "overking of Scotland". I know his translation is considered outdated, though I also can't find an online version of any more recent translation. And of course I am definitely not an expert in any form of Gaelic, and have no idea if "over" and "high" even have a meaningful difference in this context. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:52, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Nor am I an expert in Gaelic, but ard ri seems to be commonly translated as "high king". "Over king" is a less common translation. --Antiquary (talk) 10:21, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I translate basileus as king.
Sleigh (talk) 10:17, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

"Basileus (Greek: βασιλεύς) is a Greek term and title that has signified various types of monarchs in history. In the English-speaking world it is perhaps most widely understood to mean "king" or "emperor". The title was used by the Byzantine emperors". Alansplodge (talk) 17:42, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Thank you everybody so far for commenting! So, I guess I can assume my edit was reasonable, in fact? If not, please feel free to make improvements. Otherwise, what about Style of the monarchs of Scotland? Shouldn't this title be mentioned there? @Antiquary: It says "High King of the Scots", not "High King of Scotland" for Malcolm III there...--Neufund (talk) 19:13, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Ideally we should use the title that is found in a published expert translation, with a citation to that translation. Someguy1221 (talk) 19:37, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

@Someguy1221: Thank you for your post! Now, just to make sure I didn't mix things up, what about my edit with regard to this discussion? Is there anything I should improve about it?--Neufund (talk) 22:41, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

rephrasing my institution question

I'd like to rephrase my question regarding the Smithsonian Institution and the National Geographic Society. Did they work together on projects about the RMS Titanic and the LZ 129 Hindenburg? Anyone know?2604:2000:7113:9D00:E489:B375:36EB:1AC5 (talk) 22:45, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

• • They did work on a panama dig. That's all the collaboration I can find. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 22:24, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
  • They both celebrated the Titanic's centennial here. but I don't think that is a project Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 22:26, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Ok: Brittanica says that "Other expeditions, often cosponsored with the Smithsonian Institution and other organizations, [... include] the exploration of the wreck of the ocean liner Titanic." Not a guarantee, but promising. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 22:31, 12 August 2018 (UTC)