Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 June 26

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June 26

Mandela vs Rhodes

In regard to the thesis that Nelson Mandela was the most important statesman of Sub-Saharan Africa since Cecil Rhodes, what other candidates should be considered (i.e., what articles be read), and what published material (well-regarded books and papers good enough to be collected in books) would be relevant reading to address? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 01:27, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

F. W. de Klerk certainly should be on that list. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:19, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Seretse Khama did very well for Botswana. Julius Nyerere and Jomo Kenyatta are also worth looking into.--Wikimedes (talk) 04:57, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Medeis didn't indicate positive or negative, and many of these leaders could go either way. Mobutu Sese Seko certainly had a big influence as well. --Jayron32 05:08, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Robert Mugabe? Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 05:27, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Jan Christiaan Smuts. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 06:11, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Another !vote for Smuts. He was deeply involved in the establishment both the League of Nations and the United Nations as well as the Commonwealth, an important Allied leader in both World Wars (there was even a secret plan during WW2 to appoint him Prime Minister of the UK if Churchill became incapacitated) so a statesman in the true sense of the word, with influence and involvement outside of his own country - unlike some of the other merely nationalist leaders mentioned above. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 06:39, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Oooh. Good one. I didn't know much about him, his article was very interesting. Thanks for that! Being the only person to sign the treaties ending both WWI and WWII is a pretty good indicator of his significance. --Jayron32 07:00, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

He also signed the charters of both the League of Nations and the United Nations, in fact he authored parts of both documents. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:12, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Throwing out another, perhaps controversial, one, what about Gandhi? While he was born in India, and did his more well-known work there, he was also heavily involved in the civil rights movement in South Africa, working there for more than 2 decades. --Jayron32 07:02, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Ghandi was really concerned only about Indian South Africans, his negative attitude towards black Africans is well known, so I'd have to say no, his statesmanship only developed later in India. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:12, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

If you're going for internationalists, Kofi Annan and Boutros Boutros-Ghali spring to mind too. Haile Selassie is a special case. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:33, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Isn't Peter Petersmith a super-Saharan African? - Cucumber Mike (talk) 11:57, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

You did say statesMAN, but Ellen Johnson Sirleaf is currently rather notable. From the same country and similarly notable, but for less noble reasons: Charles Taylor. Hendrik Verwoerd should probably be on that list as well. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 11:57, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

A statesman by definition is someone with influence beyond their own country - Verwoerd only stuffed up South Africa. If we're extending this list to villains then Idi Amin probably deserves a mention too. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:12, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

You're probably right that Idi Amin was more influential than Verwoerd, and I'm disappointed I didn't think of him, but I'd argue that the rise and later fall of Apartheid had an effect on countries far outside South Africa - Cucumber Mike (talk) 12:40, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

• A lot of answers here, and I am quite ignorant on the subject, so I will have some reading cut out for me. As for what I meant exactly by great statesman, I am interested in those who most benefited Sub-Sahara from a small-ell liberal standpoint. That obviously rules out monsters like Mugabe, and excludes Gandhi for his main work was outside the area, but he's obviously important. Prior to his release, Mandela was feared by the right as a possible harbinger of a Cambodian-like dictatorship with violent nationalization of property, and racial cleansing. (I remember unpleasant encounters with unbathed Marxist student protestors at Cornell in the 80's who wanted just that to happen.) Given the benignity of his rule and his personal grace and generosity in the face of his treatment and in comparison to others lie Mugabe he could have imitated, he is my greatest living hero. But I really don't have any good historical context, so the answers so far look like they'll be quite helpful. μηδείς (talk) 18:53, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Albert Schweitzer and Desmond Tutu both did enough good work to get Nobel Peace Prizes.--Wikimedes (talk) 19:17, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Importance shouldn't be measured in terms of contemporary fame. For example, whilst the the presidency of Sirleif Johnson fascinated Western media, she has had very little influence on developments on the continent. Moreover, the listing of names here are heavily Anglocentric, key figures for the shaping of modern Africa were people like Léopold Sédar Senghor, Sekou Toure and Félix Houphouët-Boigny. --Soman (talk) 23:55, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Princess Christina, Mrs. Magnuson

Why was Princess Christina of Sweden's marriage in 1974 declared unequal and two years later her brother Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden allowed himself to contract an unequal marriage with Silvia Sommerlath? It made sense for his other sisters who married non-royals to be stripped of their royal status since they married during the reign of their grandfather Gustaf VI Adolf of Sweden, who was a stickler for equal marriages, but wouldn't his grandson had been more lenient given the fact he was going to marry unequally too.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 01:32, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Because it was performed before the Swedish Act of Succession was amended in 1979. Before 1979 its fifth paragraph stipulated that a prince would automatically be excluded from the royal family if he married a (Swedish) commoner, even if you had the monarch's permission to do so. Why didn't this apply to Carl XVI Gustaf himself? Because by 1976 he was the reigning king, not a prince, and the fifth paragraph of the act of succession doesn't apply to monarchs. Why didn't the pre-1979 act of succession automatically exclude Prince Bertil when he married a commoner in 1976? Because while he married a commoner, she was not enskild svensk mans dot­ter (that is, a "Swedish" commoner). Since 1980 a prince or princess only needs the permission from the government and the monarch in order to marry, regardless of the peerage status of their spouse-to-be. Gabbe (talk) 17:32, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

"Apekdunomi"

I am looking for the proper spelling and defination of "apekdunomi". It was a term that was used to describe the "public stripping away/shameing of a defeated military commander's medals". Roman era perhaps?

I have had a couple of instructors in the past that referenced this term in the Surrender of Japan on the Battleship Missouri in Tokyo Bay. I have not found any historical information to back this claim.

Thank You Philip — Preceding unsigned comments added by 96.2.182.89 (talk) 02:26, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

The ancient Greek verb apekduomai or ἀπεκδύομαι with the meaning of strip off. ἀπέκδυσις or apekdusis is the noun. I'm not sure if these words occur anywhere but in the Epistle to the Colossians. See also the derivative of the cognate (basically the same meaning): Ecdysis. There's nothing martial about the word itself. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 06:31, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

"Degradation" is sometimes used for the modern equivalent of the ceremony - see, for example, the illustration on Dreyfus affair. Andrew Gray (talk) 18:35, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I've always secretly longed to be in a position of ripping some disgraced officer's epaulettes off his shoulders and his medals off his chest and dashing them to the ground with great force, then pulling his cap rudely off his head and dashing it to the ground with great force and then trampling all over it, then breaking his ceremonial sword over my knee and dashing it to the ground with great force. I think most people, if they were honest with themselves, would admit the same yearnings. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:23, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Being caught with an underage prostitute

I wonder whether Berlusconi's sex with Ruby was proven on the basis of video evidence or not since it seems the only reliable way? Generally, since Italy and some other countries have provisions on underage prostitution, how they think they can reliably prove the fact of sex with an underage prostitute without video surveillance on citizens? Looks like witness testimony doesn't come into play here. 93.174.25.12 (talk) 08:23, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

See Silvio Berlusconi underage prostitution charges. According to that article, prosecutors claimed to have evidence from intercepted mobile phone calls, although it's unclear from the article and its sources whether that refers to the sex itself or the allegation that he intervened to have her released from police detention. There is no suggestion, thankfully, that the couple were caught on video. --Viennese Waltz 08:46, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how sex is any different than other acts. We don't require video evidence for murder, theft, or, more closely related, rape. There are witnesses, documents, material evidence, and probably plenty of other forms of evidence that can be used to prove (to the level of certainty expected by law, which is much lower than the absolute certainty required in mathematics). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:51, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

True, which raises the possibly more interesting question of exactly what evidence led the judges (no jury here) to hand down their guilty verdict. Both Berlusconi and the girl denied having sex. This article is quite thorough but does not seem to answer my question. --Viennese Waltz 13:45, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't know the details of the case (and really can't be bothered to check them ;-), but I suspect the judges applied the straight face test. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:26, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Way back in the era of the Bill Clinton -Monica Lewinski scandal, a man with some computer graphics savvy said to me "Give me $100,000 and I can furnish video of you or anyone else having sex with a goat." Edison (talk) 23:59, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Budget deficit and cuts

Hello,

I was wondering about the UK budget deficit. According to this video (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23044189) the budget deficit is £120bn and the cuts at the next spending review will be £11.5bn. Am I right in thinking that this will still leave a deficit of ~£108.5bn, meaning that the national debt will increase from £1.13tn to ~£1.24tn? And if this is right, isn't a 10% cut in the deficit effectively useless? Thanks, 94.171.162.105 (talk) 09:32, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Pretty much explained here: Budget_deficit. The short version is the cut is for a Fiscal_year. It will be adjusted in the next period - up or down depending on the economy. Slashing the budget by the a large percentage would cause total economic chaos. The government would effectively have very little to spend.196.214.78.114 (talk) 12:12, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I didn't watch the video. Your numbers are correct but cutting the deficit by any amount is not useless. Reducing the budget is a lengthy process and, as explained by 196.214..., cutting it too quickly could lead to massive instability - for example, imagine what would happen to the public health system if the government suddenly reduced its healthcare budget by 50%.

So a reduction of 10% in the deficit would be a very useful step in the right direction if they do it sustainably. StewieCartman (talk) 15:26, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Presidential changes of heart

Is there precedent for a situation such as Bill Clinton's recent criticism of the Defense of Marriage Act (see, e.g., this op-ed)? In other words, have there been other instances where a former US president has advocated that a bill he signed into law be overturned? Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 09:47, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

The so-called Gold Act, of 1864, which shut down the gold markets, was quickly realized to be a mistake (under a lot of pressure from the business community) and Congress and the administration cooperated in getting it repealed in just 12 days from the original enactment. I am not sure if Lincoln said anything specific himself.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:18, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Clinton's isn't so much a change of heart as a change over time in what position was thought politically advantageous. - Nunh-huh 02:03, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Image of a musician

Hey. I've got Brad Hagen trying to donate an image to use but was wondering how i go about this in a way where there is evidence it was donated. So far he has provided this but it has a watermark. Is it better to get him to upload to the Commons or for me to do it? And what about proof that it is from him and not from somewhere else on the web? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 19:35, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

To answer your second question, you may want to upload the image to Google Image Search. I used it to recognise one of Mary Cassatt's Impressionist paintings. Sneazy (talk) 20:14, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Go to commons:Commons:OTRS... -- AnonMoos (talk) 21:14, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Article focus changed. Thanks for the links guys but the article failed notability anyway ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 12:01, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Henry Bond Restarick

Who succeeded Henry Bond Restarick as bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Hawaii and what are the names of the subsequent bishops to this day?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:12, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

This can be found in List of bishops of the Episcopal Church in the United States of America if you search for "Hawaii". Briefly, after Restarick there have been John D. LaMothe (from 1921), S. Harrington Littell (1930), Harry S. Kennedy (1944), E. Lani Hanchett (1967), Edmond L. Browning (1968), Donald P. Hart (1986), Richard S.O. Chang (1997), and Robert L. Fitzpatrick (2007). Deor (talk) 00:09, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:11, 27 June 2013 (UTC)