Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2011 August 25

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August 25

What happens when 2 parties in different countries are utterly unhappy with each other

Let's say Microsoft and Sony sign a contract in which Sony pays Microsoft $ 50 million for creating an operating system for Sony's new gadget. Sony pays the whole 50 million up front, and Microsoft says "Here's MS DOS 6.21 on a nice floppy disk, we're sure that this meets all specifications we agreed upon". Sony goes to a judge in the US having a basically sound case: Microsoft ripped us off, the least we want is our money back. Could a judge say "Well Sony, you're not a US based entity so you're not entitled to our law enforcement, which was meant and paid for by US entities, bad luck for you"? If not, why hasn't some politician come up with the brilliant idea that in cases between US entities/civilians and foreigners, the foreigners should always lose? (that would be similar to trade tariffs). 2) If both parties would have thought about such a problem, would a sentence in the contract "All problems will be settled under US law" have any real meaning? I guess there is no "higher" judge, at least not one countries like the US would submit their companies to? The reason for this question is that I wonder how billion-dollar deals are made between companies in different jurisdictions without the "safety net" of a wise authority both parties have to listen to decide who's right and what should happen next, let alone the enforcement of that decision. Joepnl (talk) 00:50, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

The United States is a party to agreements with other countries meant to ensure that foreign corporations enjoy legal protection. If the United States were to engage in such outright discrimination against foreign corporations, it would certainly be found in noncompliance with trade agreements by the WTO, which would allow foreign countries to reciprocate against the U.S. The U.S. would basically be giving up on free trade. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:16, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Sony has a U.S. division, employes a lot of U.S. residents, and does a LOT of business in the U.S. Why would it benefit the U.S. government to alienate them? The U.S. (and the states) make a lot of money on taxes from Sony; the distinction in the modern world on where the Worldwide Headquarters for a company are is ultimately unimportant, and it seems patently rediculous that any element of the U.S. government who actually understands one iota about how the world economy works would consider the above scenario reasonable. After all, other "flagship" U.S. brands aren't based in the U.S. either. Chrysler is an Italian company; Anheuser-Busch is a Belgian company, and yet no U.S. official wouldn't dream of discriminating against those companies merely because of where their world headquarters are located, given the amount of employment and business the companies do in the U.S. It is no different with Sony. --Jayron32 02:23, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

In addition to what Mwalcoff said above, many countries have bilateral investment treaties (or BITs) in place, and when a company from one country is mistreated by the authorities in another country, they can seek redress under the provisions of such treaties, often by way of international arbitration.

If you keep mistreating foreign companies, no-one will want to invest in your country, which is generally regarded as a bit bad for the economy as you lose jobs and money stops flowing in. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:49, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Most contracts between entities based in different jurisdictions include a clause indicating under which jurisdiction any disputes are to be settled. In the case in the example, the agreement would include a clause stating that disputes are to be settled under the laws of New York State or Luxembourg, or whatever the parties agree to for practical reasons. --Xuxl (talk) 11:14, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

In your hypothetical case, no contract with US corporations would be valid. A US corporation could always deny delivery or payment, and get away with it. In such a scenario, no one would do business with you. Quest09 (talk) 13:51, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks all! Am I right to conclude that while there is no "superior judge" (let's say, the UN), countries will voluntarily will act as if there is one because doing otherwise would hurt their own interests too much; and to provide extra proof they will act nicely they set up treaties (sometimes even appointing a superior judge like WTO) so possible business partners are more assured they will? Joepnl (talk) 00:15, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Correct. You can think of the WTO and other organisations as the "superior judges" which countries have voluntarily signed up to adjudicate or arbitrate their disputes. For BITs, one often-used "superior judge" is the International Centre for Settlement of Investment Disputes or ICSID, which is part of the World Bank. Both countries and individual companies can submit to the ruling of international "superior judges" for commercial disputes. The UN does play a role in this: the United Nations Commission on International Trade Law or UNCITRAL writes the rule book which is used in resolving many disputes.

Like many other aspects of international law, these "superior judges" are only binding because countries (or companies) choose to submit to them. But in many cases, it has become almost compulsory for countries to submit to these "superior judges" to be part of (and benefit from) the global market place. This is especially true with the WTO, as in return for following its rules you get equal or preferential treatment from the other members, and most countries in the world are members. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:41, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Any contract entered into would identify the legal system within which the contract applies. All the other speculation is just noise as the contract itself is the authority for applicability.

ALR (talk) 10:40, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Totem Poles

As a boy Scout,I spent several summers at Camp Shagbark in SE Wisconsin. Situated on either side of the mess hall were 6 totem poles. We would be assigned to repaint them every summer, a practice I thought was disrespectful to whoever carved them. Anyway, I recently went on a nostalgic trip to my old summer place and was surprised to find the totem poles were gone. Does anybody have any information on what happened to them? I was there in the late 60's. <email redacted> — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.202.124.211 (talk) 03:02, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I can't find anything about this by searching the internet, apart from a photo showing what they used to look like. It seems as though Camp Shagbark has changed its name to (or been absorbed into) Camp Wonderland, so I'd contact the people at Camp Wonderland by email. They'd probably know best. I removed your email from this page because you don't want to attract spammers! Calliopejen1 (talk) 04:07, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

It seems as though beliefs about what constitutes appropriate maintenance (if any) of a totem pole vary. Here's one article that says many First Nations people think it's okay to repaint them. (I also somewhat doubt that the totem poles had any particular cultural significance, considering that groups that traditionally carve totem poles are in the Pacific Northwest, not Michigan. And the cartoon bird on the leftmost pole in the photo doesn't look like anything traditional at all - see here for how birds, most often ravens in traditional poles, are typically depicted.) Calliopejen1 (talk) 04:10, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

That's Wisconsin, not Michigan. Also, the bird on the camp totem pole doesn't look cartoonish to me, it looks rather realistic, at least compared with the highly symbolic look of birds on real totem poles. StuRat (talk) 07:19, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Oops, I meant Wisconsin (where there aren't groups that traditionally carve totem poles either). Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:12, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

In 2007 a totem pole fell at a Scout camp, killing a Cub Scout.[1] I expect a lot of camps took a good look at totem poles and may have removed any that were questionable. The totem poles in the photo look a lot larger in diameter than a utility pole; not being treated, they would not last as long. Here in Virginia, we had a Scouter who was a wood carver and worked for the power company so he had access to treated utility poles, so we have a number of totem poles at camp and the service center. They get inspected every year before summer camp opens. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 12:22, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

has anyone memorized the entire Bible?

I guess since I speak English, I would most want to know if there has ever been an individual who has memorized the entire Bible in English(the translation doesn't matter); if there has not been anyone who has accomplished this in English, has there been anyone to do so in any language? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.175.132.12 (talk) 07:41, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

We had a similar question a couple of weeks ago, although it derailed pretty quickly so I'm not sure if that helps. Anyway, certainly people have done this, although I can't think of any names specifically. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:44, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

This person says they know of two. This does not surprise me considering there are plenty of people who memorise similarly complex works (digits of Pi, for example) and to a Christian, memorising the Bible would seem like a decent use of your memory ability to enough people. It's got more use than the digits of Pi, anyway. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 09:58, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

It used to be an important part of Sunday school to read through the bible piece-meal and learn to recite every passage from memory. On completion the pupil got an awarded. These feats got passing mentions in some old Victorian novels but I think it continued up until quite resently.--Aspro (talk) 10:34, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

There's nothing particularly unusual about memorizing the entire bible. Many people probably have that much text memorized right now (think, for example, of how many song lyrics a singer may know; or an actor who knows lines from various parts they have starred in). What makes the bible seem "impossible" is that all the lines are in the same work; but I don't think, with proper dedication, it would be all that difficult or shocking for people to do it. Large chunks of the old testament were passed down through oral tradition, which requires many people to memorize it. Likewise, similarly long religious works are known to have been memorized throughout history, the Vedas were, and still are, memorized, and I think there's more text there than in the bible. --Jayron32 13:31, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

The bible is about 800.000 words long. Seems pretty doable to me. A similar case, although the Qur'an is 1/10 of the lenght of the bible, is that of the Hafiz (Qur'an). Quest09 (talk) 13:49, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• " the entire Bible in English(the translation doesn't matter)" You seem to imply that the Bible was written in English, and the others are just translations from it. 88.9.108.128 (talk) 21:25, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
  • No he's implying that it doesn't have to be the King James translation. Joepnl (talk) 00:20, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Reverend Lovejoy: Homer, I'd like you to remember Matthew 7:26: "The foolish man who built his house upon the sand."
Homer: And you remember ... Matthew ... 21:17.
Reverend Lovejoy (unflinching): "And he left them and went out of the city, into Bethany, and he lodged there?"
Homer: Yeah. Think about it. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

"First pea/pee I have taken" joke

I was reading a linguistics paper by James McCawley which mentioned a joke whose punchline is "This is the first [piy] I have taken in seven years." ([piy] is IPA for both "pee" and "pea"; the joke needs to be spoken to work properly.) He gives only the punchline; how does the rest of the joke go? 69.224.115.82 (talk) 14:40, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

It might help if you can tell us exactly which paper you found this in. 130.88.99.231 (talk) 15:42, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Not that it helps, but the IPA wouldn't be [piy], which looks a bit unpronouncable, but in any case wouldn't sound like "pea" (you probably mean [pij] or just [pi]). Adam Bishop (talk) 17:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

It isn't IPA, but it's common enough in American linguistics (see Americanist phonetic notation). I expect McCawley himself wrote "[piy]". Pais (talk) 19:03, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

"[piy]" is exactly what McCawley wrote, and the paper was called "The applicability of transformations to idioms." Which doesn't seem to be available online. 69.224.115.82 (talk) 23:38, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

In the version of the joke I heard, decades ago, that wasn't the punchline, it was the setup. The punchline was that the other guy yells to everyone else in the room, "Look out! There's going to be a flood!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:40, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Cue for the anecdote about the English Music Hall artiste Marie Lloyd, involving the very same ambiguity. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.127 (talk) 05:36, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

It's rather a contrived pun, so I imagine the joke being something equally contrived:

The American ambassador to the Court of St. James's, after seven years living in a country where peas are served only as a premasticated and indivisible slurry, was delighted to discover a bowl of individually countable peas at a banquet in Washington, D.C. Sportively he plucked a single emerald orb from the bowl and declared to the assembled dignitaries, "Would you believe I haven't had a real pea in seven years?" To which an elder statesman growled, "I haven't had a real shit since the Gulf War."

LANTZY^TALK 00:29, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

The fake fortune cookie fortune "Woman who cook carrots and peas in same pot very unsanitary" is similar. - Nunh-huh 23:42, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Soviet veto?

• United Nations Security Council Resolution 462

The resolution was adopted by 12 votes to two against (East Germany, Soviet Union) with one abstention from Zambia.

What happened to the Soviet "niet" vote? Why couldn't the Soviet Union veto this UNSC resolution? -- Toytoy (talk) 16:06, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

See United Nations General Assembly Resolution 377 (which is mentioned in the article, but its relevance should probably be made more clear). Looie496 (talk) 16:16, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

But how could a General Assembly meeting be used to pass a Security Council resolution? I thought that a UNGA resolution 337 "uniting for peace" meeting can only pass its own GA non-binding recommendations which has no enforcement power. -- Toytoy (talk) 16:32, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Because it was non-binding. The only action of that resolution was to call an emergency special session of the General Assembly on the subject, and it is up to each member whether to attend such a session. Therefore Resolution 462 didn't compel anything, so it was not veto-able. 76.254.20.205 (talk) 19:38, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Arabs and Somalis and Africans in Libya

Which cities of Italy have the significant population of Arabs (from Libya) and Somalis and Ethiopians and Eritreans? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.29.34.16 (talk) 16:06, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

While it is not restricted to Arabic muslims, Islam_in_Italy#Present_situation has some basic stats; most Muslims in Italy live in the Northern third of the country (Lombardy, Friuli, the Veneto, etc) so I would expect that most North African Arabs and Somalis live in cities in the North (Milan, Genoa, Turin, Venice). Rome#Ethnic_groups does not list such groups as a significant ethnic minority, though Milan#Demographics does mention significant immigration from North Africa among other places. --Jayron32 16:14, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Africans in Belgium

Which cities in Belgium have significant population Africans from Democratic Republic of Congo, Rwanda and Burundi? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.29.34.16 (talk) 16:11, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

All of the above listed countries were once Belgian territories and got their independence fairly late - in the early 1960'ies. Like in India in colonial times, the exchange with the respective European imperialist country was not only political, but also one of trade and culture, and must have served as grounds for migration for the peoples of the above countries. Besdomny (talk) 13:38, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Immigrants in Netherlands

Which cities have significant population of Indonesians? Which cities have significant population of Surinamese? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.29.34.16 (talk) 16:18, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Probably a majority of the "Indonesians" are Moluccans who are not necessarily excessively fond of being called Indonesian... AnonMoos (talk) 23:40, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

The Hague is known for Indonesians (I wouldn't know how that happened), there is even a nostalgic song "The Hague, The Hague, the widow of Indonesia is you". Rotterdam has more Surinamese. But both groups are spread quite evenly around the country (apart from rural areas). (Which is not the case for other minorities b.t.w). Joepnl (talk) 00:02, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

From my time in Saudi Arabia, I think a number of workers were from Indonesia and the Philippines. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 03:00, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

We're not really fond of being called Indonesian either. LOL. And Surinam is in a whole other continent. -- Obsidi♠n Soul 11:51, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Academia and change of name

If you are a published author and you change your name, it will happen that your articles, books and other works will have a different nominal author. Would that pose a problem for those authors? And how common is this phenomenon? Quest09 (talk) 21:51, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Many professional women choose to retain their maiden name when marrying to avoid this problem. 76.254.20.205 (talk) 22:15, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Not all - see Talk:Carol Grace#Her names. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 22:53, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I know publishing academics who have taken all three different approaches - changed their name, kept their maiden name (at least for publishing purposes), or used a hyphenated name. All approaches are workable. If you change or hyphenate your name, there's certainly an issue with people having difficulty associating your work pre- and post-marriage (e.g. is Jane Q. Doe who published on stem cells in 2008 the same as Jane Q. Roberts who is publishing on stem cells in 2011?) From a practical perspective, though, anyone for whom it truly matters (e.g. tenure and grant committees) will have your CV, where it should be clear that you've changed your name, and which papers/books are yours. Doing a name-based search is somewhat unreliable anyway, because even without name changes it's entirely possible that there are two Robert M. Smiths doing similar work. As a final point, typically people marry relatively early in their careers, so not being able to find the 2-4 papers published (probably on a different subject) as a grad student typically isn't a show-stopper. -- 140.142.20.229 (talk) 23:09, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Your last point is not very relevant. Even if people marry before they begin publishing, woman tend also to change their names back to their maiden name after a divorce, which can happen at any time during your academic career. Anyway, normally each scientist submits a list with his works, so there is no risk of your work not being found, unless someone is searching for you at Amazon.88.9.108.128 (talk) 23:30, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Its not just women who marry. For example Cat Stevens and Wendy Carlos, just off the top of my head. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 02:49, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

And Cat Stevens changed his name twice. Also see Chad Ochocinco. --Jayron32 12:53, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

The linguist Joan Bybee published under the name Joan Bybee Hooper (or Joan B. Hooper) through the 1970s and as Joan Bybee (or Joan L. Bybee) since the 1980s. I don't what the circumstances were (I assume Bybee was her maiden name, Hooper her married name, and she either got divorced or just decided she preferred her maiden name), though. In her own books, works published under Hooper are listed as Hooper in the References, and works published under Bybee are listed as Bybee in the References. Other people just have to learn that Bybee and Hooper are the same person. Pais (talk) 15:58, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

And I have books by Nicholas Yermakov and Simon Hawke who are the same person. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 16:50, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately women who change their names don't seem to get any courtesy from scientific publishing - even NCBI PubMed doesn't have any feature to track changed names, nor for that matter names that can't be tracked by a first initial and a last name, like "H. Singh". Despite my suggestion... Wnt (talk) 17:34, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

See Talk:Kathleen Lindsay and the associated Ref Desk discussion from 2008. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:19, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Some immigrants from Russia to the United States have also famously changed their names, as well as many members of the Jewish disaspora who wish to avoid having Jewish-sounding names to reduce potential antisemitism. Alisa Rosenbaum becoming Ayn Rand, obviously, but she didn't have a record of publications before arriving in the United States. Mark Perakh is a good example: a mathematician who was known as Mark Popereka but changed his name after coming to the United States, and having been challenged by some of his intellectual opponents to produce his earlier work from when he was in the Soviet Union. —Tom Morris (talk) 11:17, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Before moving to the United States in the 1940s, Vladimir Nabokov had all his works published in Russian under the alias "Sirin". --Ghirla^-трёп- 10:11, 29 August 2011 (UTC)