Wikipedia:Peer review/Daisy Bacon/archive1

Daisy Bacon

I've listed this article for peer review because I would like to take it to FAC. A concern I have is that it is almost entirely sourced to one book, since there is only one biography of Bacon.

Thanks, Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:07, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Aoba47

I will try to do a complete review sometime this week. Apologies in advance for the delay. I have a few quick points below.

• You specifically mention concerns with sourcing in this peer review. I have found some additional Newspapers.com sources that may be helpful: (Editing is Daisy Bacon's Business, Daisy Bacon, Editor, Writes Handbook Of Advice To Would-Be Pulp Writers, Daisy Bacon Reads More Than Million Words Every Week, - and Makes It Pay, Expert Daisy Bacon Speaks On Romance). Apologies if they are already included as I have just looked at the citation titles currently used in the article. I have not done a thorough read-through of these sources so I am not guaranteeing anything great. That being said, it may be worthwhile to look through Newspapers.com again to just make sure you've seen all the available sources.
• There are spots where a comma is used after a year (In mid-1934, Street & Smith) and other instances where it is not (In 1935 Bacon submitted) so I would be consistent with one way or the other. The comma usage for dependent clauses at the start of a sentence are not consistent either; see (In her first year as editor, Bacon) and (In retirement she published) for what I mean. I fully admit that I am quite garbage with comma rules, but I still wanted to raise this to your attention.
• What is the rationale behind the current placement of File:Daisy Bacon in bed.jpg? Since it was taken in 1942, it would seemingly make more sense in the "1940s and the end of the pulps" section.
• Pocket Love is given a red link in the article, but not in the lead so I would be consistent with it by adding it to the lead as well.
• I am guessing Daisy Bacon does not have a middle name?

I hope these quick comments are helpful. I personally do not have an issue with the biography being used so heavily as long as you can discuss how you've exhausted all other possibilities and have done your research in that regard. I hope you have a great start to your week! Aoba47 (talk) 03:35, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks; these are very helpful. I've fixed a couple of the easy ones and will look at the others later; I appreciate the review. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:11, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

I am glad that I could help. Aoba47 (talk) 19:52, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

• Any particular reason why Bacon's age is not in the infobox?

  None -- I've added it. I don't use infoboxes very often and didn't notice that was missing. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:32, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

  Fair enough. I can understand why people are for and against infoboxes. It is an easy parameter to overlook in general. Aoba47 (talk) 23:12, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

• I would link Union City, Pennsylvania and Port Washington, New York in the infobox for any readers who may want to read more about these areas. These areas are also linked in the article so linking them here would make things consistent.

  Yes, done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:32, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

• I have a question about this sentence: (However, the following April Street & Smith shut down all their pulps, and she was let go). Would "let go" fall under the Wikipedia policy on euphemisms? I know the Wikipedia policy focuses more on language regarding death, but isn't "let go" just a nicer way of saying someone was fired? I was not sure if this was the best wording.

  It doesn't feel like a euphemism to me, but if it does to you it might to others, so I've changed it to "fired". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:32, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

  It is entirely up to you. This was more of a clarification question than anything. It may be best get other editors's opinions on this wording, but in my opinion, "let go" is more so the wording the fired person would use to make the firing seem less bad to other people like a potential employer, but that's just my opinion. Aoba47 (talk) 23:12, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

• I have a comment for this sentence: (In retirement she published a book Love Story Writer, about writing romance stories, in 1954.). The "in 1954" part feels tacked-on to me and it reads a little awkwardly to have a sentence start and end with "In X". I would instead put the year in parenthesis after the book title.

  I dropped "in retirement" instead and put the year there -- we've just said she was fired so I think the reader doesn't need to be told again. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:32, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

  That makes sense to me. Aoba47 (talk) 23:12, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

• Do we know the cause of Bacon's death?

  The biography just says her caregiver found her dead in bed one day.

  Thank you for the clarification. I had the impression that the cause of death was unknown so that makes sense to me and is clear in the article. Aoba47 (talk) 23:12, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

• Is there any further information on the Daisy Bacon Scholarship Fund? I am curious on how this fund is used in particular, like is it applied to students in specific majors, etc.

  The bio doesn't say. I had a look online and found things like this, but even if that's reliable it doesn't say anything about the requirements. The amounts are surprisingly small -- not much of a help to students these days, I would think, but I guess every little helps. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:32, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you for the link. You are right that it is smaller number, but you are correct that any amount helps and it would probably be one of those scholarships people apply for alongside many others. Aoba47 (talk) 23:12, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

• I have a question about this part, (Daisy probably attended the Barcelona elementary school). If it is not completely certain which elementary school Daisy attended, is this necessary information to include in the article? It is not like elementary school is a necessary point to include in most biographies so I do not see a clear reason for including this kind of speculation.

  Good point -- removed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:32, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

• Would it be worthwhile to link valedictorian in this part, (She graduated from high school in 1917 as valedictorian)? I imagine a majority of readers are familiar with this concept, but it may be helpful for those unfamiliar with it.

  Yes, linked. Actually it's not a widely known term in the UK, so I definitely agree it should be linked. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:32, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you for the link. I only brought it up as the valedictorian article does mention how it is not widely known or used in certain areas. Aoba47 (talk) 23:12, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

• Do we know why Daisy's family moved to Manhattan after her high school graduation?

  The source says "By this time, Jessie needed to find a job that would meet the needs of her and her daughters. Daisy had dreams of becoming a writer and, like many others, felt that living in a city would provide her with more opportunities. Jessie and her two daughters -- Daisy fresh out of high school and Esther barely ten years old -- packed up and moved to New York City." This seemed a little vague to me; Powers (the biographer) is usually pretty good about citing Daisy's diary or other documentation when she knows something for certain, and since she doesn't do so here I think she might just be projecting a likely reason.

  That makes sense to me. For the reason you have already said above, I think the current wording is the best version as the rationale is rather vague. Aoba47 (talk) 23:12, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

• Arturo Toscanini should be linked.

  Done.

These comments apply to the infobox, lead, and the "Early life and early career" section. Hope you are doing well! Aoba47 (talk) 21:02, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

All done or replied to; very useful, thanks! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:32, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

I am glad that I could help! Best of luck with this peer review. When I am done with my review, would you like to me to collapse my comments or put them on the talk page (or keep them here)? Just wanted to ask since I did not want my wall of text to potentially discourage future reviewers. Aoba47 (talk) 23:12, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

No need to collapse for my sake. It's fine if nobody else picks it up, but I'll probably leave it here for a bit anyway, just in case. I have a couple of books on order that may have a little info about her, and I may have something else at FAC first, so I can wait. Thanks again for the review. I know you're modest about your prose skills, but you shouldn't be -- you spotted some things that really needed fixing! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:21, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the very kind words! I am looking forward to seeing what you nominate for a FAC next, and I hope you are having a good week so far! Aoba47 (talk) 17:52, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

• I have a few comments about linking that I will group together to save space. I'd link bedsheet and digest size as both terms are fairly niche regarding magazines, and I'd link Algonquin Round Table as I could see readers being unfamiliar with it. The following links are more so questions that I will leave up to you: advice column, glass ceiling, Prohibition in the United States, and Long Island. I suggest those as I could see readers being unfamiliar with the concepts or want to read more on them.

  I skipped advice column and Long Island, but added the rest. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  Fair enough. I can understand why you would skip both of those, and I appreciate that you let me know. Aoba47 (talk) 03:01, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

• Since this article is about an American, I would imagine the American spelling of installment should be used over instalment.

  Done. That's one I didn't know; I'm more used to seeing UK spellings double the consonants, e.g. in "travelling". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  I would be in the same boat. I would be awful at recognizing UK/US spelling differences most of the time, but for whatever reason this one caught my attention. Aoba47 (talk) 03:16, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

• The lead mentions Daisy was working on a romance novel in the 1930s, but the article is more vague and refers to it only as a manuscript of a novel.

  Added "romance" in the body. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

• I have a question about this part, (which planned to distribute copies of the magazine to men in the armed services overseas). I am guessing this is referencing World War II? Would it be beneficial to clarify this in the prose?

  I'm not sure about this and would like to see what other reviewers think. Powers doesn't actually mention the war in this context; of course it seems certain that that's what's being referred to, but I am inclined to leave it unsaid. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  That is understandable. To be honest, I got that impression from the article that the source did not fully nail this down as a WWII-related thing so I think the current wording actually works quite well and reflects the source. Aoba47 (talk) 03:16, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

• I have two comments for this part, (These were both "hero pulps"). Hero pulp should be linked to be consistent with the linking in the lead, and I do not think the quotation marks are necessary.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

• Would it be possibly to briefly expand on this part, (somewhat separate lives), and would it be useful at all? I was just curious if there is more context here.

  Powers says "Henry and Alice had developed a habit of living separately", and goes on to describe how they would take trips by themselves. She quotes Henry: "Throughout our married life we were separated for considerable lengths of time ... We found by experience that such partings were salutary. We came to believe that marriage did not preclude, or better still a holiday. Yes, I mean a holiday from each other." However, it's not clear that it was an open marriage, and there's not much concrete in the quote. Do you see anything worth adding? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you for the explanation. That does help me a lot. Would it be possible to somehow incorporate the "developed a habit of living separately" part into the prose? I do not necessarily mean as a quote as this can paraphrased, but I think the "somewhat separate lives" bit could be read in various ways that further clarification would be helpful. Aoba47 (talk) 03:16, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  I've added a bit. Powers does say "perhaps it was an open marriage" so I've added that too. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:23, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  I think that is helpful and I appreciate the link with "open marriage". It looks good to me. Aoba47 (talk) 15:22, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

• I am uncertain about the placement of this sentence: (Daisy also began to suffer from depression during the mid-1920s.). Having it come right after the information on her affair with Henry Miller makes it seem like the two are related. I have a similar concern with (perhaps because the place reminded her of Alice's existence). This may be true, but I think it may be safer to attribute who made this connection. I just think special care should be taken with discussing a person's mental health, and while Bacon's depression could be related to her affair, I would more clearly attribute this in the prose.

  This is a good point, and I'm not sure how to handle it. Daisy's depression is mentioned in her journals, years later, but Powers doesn't give any reason Daisy might have given in her journal entry. Powers does mention that Jessie was suffering from depression too, and mentions Daisy's depression as a segue from that. I could say that Powers doesn't connect the depression to Henry, but she doesn't say it's not related to Henry either. I could change the section title to "Personal life", or "Personal life while at Street & Smith" (to separate it from the "Retirement" section), which would remove some of the implied connection to Henry, if that would help? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  I think renaming the section title would go a long way to avoiding this kind of reading. Just to be clear, the information about Daisy's depression is obviously important and should be included in the article, but I just did not want to have readers make connections or get any false impression that things were related if they are not 100% that way if that makes any sense. Aoba47 (talk) 03:25, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  Changed the section title to "Personal life", and added a few words attributed the second instance to Powers. How does that look? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:23, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  I think it looks a lot better so thank you for making these adjustments. Aoba47 (talk) 15:22, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

• Should this part, (Daisy was probably seeing other men by 1942), be attributed in some way? I know that a lot of this information cannot be said with 100% certainty, but something about this part read a little off. However, that could just be me, and I could just be way over-thinking it.

  I've added Powers' reasoning -- see what you think. In one of the pictures Daisy is holding hands with him; adding that seemed like too much detail but I could put the explanation in a footnote. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you for addressing this point. I think the current wording is better. I do not think the holding hands part is necessary as it is more trivial since the mention of the photographs alone are solid enough in my opinion. Aoba47 (talk) 03:25, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

• Would it be possible to add a short descriptive phrase for Audrey Frazier, such as her occupation? It would be nice to get that additional context.

  Done -- she was a college professor. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

• The lead says Bacon "twice attempted suicide", but in the article, only one is established with certainty and the second is more speculation (and while likely true is not confirmed with the same certainty as the first).

  Made it "at least once" in the lead. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

• Do you think Pocket Love Magazine could have a red link or does it not have enough coverage and information to support a separate article?

  I did have it redlinked and took it out because I can't find out much about it. I think it will end up being a section in an article about Street & Smith. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  That makes sense to me. Thank you for the clarification. Aoba47 (talk) 03:25, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

• Citation 72 looks live to me even though it is marked as dead.

  Fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

I ended up reading through the article much earlier expected so apologies for that. I believe that this should be all of my comments for the article. Wonderful work as always. I really reading about this individual. Best of luck with the peer review! Aoba47 (talk) 00:15, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks -- very helpful, as always. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

• Thank you for addressing everything. I have left some comments above, mostly agreeing with what you have done. The only note that I have is that I would further clarify "somewhat separate lives" as meaning that they frequently lived apart. This was an interesting (and sad) read, and I appreciate that you have done all this work for the article. It is always nice in my opinion to see female biographies and more obscure biographies get this kind of attention. Great work as always! Aoba47 (talk) 03:25, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

  A couple more replies above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:23, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

SusunW

It's weird what draws one to an article. For me, sitting in the waiting room during my husband's ear surgery, I read "Bacone College" and was hooked. I note your concern about heavy reliance on one book and have found quite a few articles that clearly have sig cov. (I've left the Old Fulton links with highlights for you to easily see, but you might want to shorten them, if you decide to use them. This gives quite a bit more information about her family and her love of animals/animal rights; Family history is confirmed in part also here and here, which also shows Gemini Books lasted until 1975; this cats and fashion; More fashion but a whole lot more info. Says she came to NYC after selling an article to the Saturday Evening Post. More below:

• Love Story Magazine is linked twice in the lede.

  Oops. Fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Scholarship fund established by whom?

  Powers doesn't say. She quotes a few lines from the speech by the attorney who announced the fund at the Port Washington high school, and says 250 students had benefited from the fund at the time she was writing, but gives no other details. I had a look online but all I can find is websites that list grant-giving organizations -- nothing from the fund itself, and no more information. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Found it! She and Ford apparently set it up "Bacon and younger sister Esther Ford Robinson set up a scholarship fund in Bacon's name, which continues to benefit local Port Washington High School students who wish to pursue a career in journalism." SusunW (talk) 20:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Excellent; thank you! Added a bit. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Perhaps insert "her sister" in She hired Esther

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Circulation was strong at the time Ford became editor, I thought Ford was the assistant to Bacon?

  Aargh. Typo (or what a friend of mine used to call a braino); fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• I don't get a sense from the article that she increased the production, but lots of sources say that. Love Story best-selling magazine of the genre nationwide; Bacon built circulation to over 1 million; Bacon turned Love Story into "a phenomenal success".

  I've added a bit here; I'm being a bit cautious as Powers is somewhat sceptical of the numbers. I've added a footnote giving Powers' comments. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• As high as…a very high figure, possibly reword to avoid redundant use of high.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• ditto of volume in the next sentence.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:37, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• was friends with, I read this and my first reaction was Grieg was successful at what? Perhaps "befriended writers Maysie Grieg…and Gertrude Schalk, an African-American who sold…"

  I made it "a successful writer"; does that work? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:37, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• blissfully unaware that everyone in the office was lying in wait for me to do what?

  Presumably to criticize her for having written the piece. Powers' source for this is a letter Bacon wrote in 1948. Per Powers: "Daisy didn't record how the confrontation fared. But chances are that she would have defended her essay in the usual Daisy fashion: defiant, blunt, and unapologetic." Since that's just speculation I didn't feel I could use it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:37, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• As part of editing Detective Stories reads awkwardly to me. Perhaps "As the editor of Detective stories, Bacon…to men who were serving overseas in the military."

  Rephrased; how does that look? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Seems to me her relationships with writers during this part of the story was a bit contentious. She clearly had issues with Lester Dent.

  I think it was only Dent she had trouble with. You're right that should have been included; I've added a few sentences. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Again her role in building the magazines seems unstated. her attempts to revive The Shadow, Doc Savage, and Detective Story Magazine.

  I've added a mention of her changing the format, but she was only in charge for about a year, and didn't revive their fortunes. She did claim that the change of format increased circulation of The Shadow', so I've added that, worded as a claim, since per one of the footnotes it's quite likely she didn't really know the numbers for sure. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Power comments that, do you mean Powers?

  Yes; fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:19, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• I'm a bit confused about the drinking bit. Were both Bacon and Ford alcoholics?

  No, my error! Fixed now. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:19, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Throughout the article though and although are used. I am often dinged for using though (but I think it is probably more common in AE.)

  Tweaked a couple. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Review of sorts for her 1954 book.

  I don't see anything that jumps out at me there as useful. It's mostly quotes; Lowry doesn't actually express an opinion on the book's quality. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Esther Ford moved in with Bacon after Ford's husband, redundant, possibly, Her sister moved in?

  I'm being a bit careful in the phrasing because Powers doesn't directly say Ford moved in in 1962, just that it was after Clark's death, and I'm also trying to avoid the consecutive possessives of "Bacon's sister's husband". I've had a go at this; see what you think. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• As in the lede, scholarship is given by whom?

  Per my comment above, I don't have any more information. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Not sure if any of this is helpful, but there you have it. Overall it was quite interesting and I enjoyed learning about her. The biggest gap I see is that there is little discussion of her impact on the publications she worked on or how unusual it was for a woman to hold the position of editor of a magazine at that time. Hopefully the sources I've given to above will help fill that gap. Thank you for working on her. Please ping me if I need to review something. My real life is kinda crazy right now. SusunW (talk) 18:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I'll come back to the extra sources you've found once I've responded to Caecilius below. I have been sceptical about using the newspaper interviews; Powers emphasizes that many of the articles about Bacon contained errors -- from very basic things such as her hair colour to more substantive problems. That's why I've drawn the material mostly from Powers, since she's reverified a good deal of what the interviews report. But I'll take a look and see; thanks for the links. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

And I forgot to add my thanks for your comments -- very helpful indeed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:46, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Glad to try to help Mike. Changes look fine, most of it was nitpicky, but the 2 instances of mixing up Ford and Bacon were kind of crucial. On other sources, yes, at the time, newspapers were often flowery, spent inordinate amounts of text writing drivel about how women looked, and were extremely promotional. Still and all, one can generally eliminate the excesses and find the kernel of truth there. (One of the reasons as you know that I often do background searches in primary records to confirm whether the stuff is real or not.) That said, their inclusion proves sig cov and your cautious use of them is explainable. (I'm still curious about the ancestry, not to Francis Bacon – that seems impossibly mythical, but to Holbrook and Bradford. Perhaps DAR lineage books if I have time to search will satisfy my curiosity.) Again, thank you for your work on her. SusunW (talk) 15:52, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Re the sources you linked above:

• [1] I can't get this to load -- is there an alternative way for me to find the page? I tried constructing the shortened URL per the page you linked to but that didn't work either.
• [2] This has several inaccuracies that I can recognize -- she never edited Real Love, for example, and came to NY long before the late 1920s. It looks to me as if Peterson got his info from one of the inaccurate newspaper stories.
• [3] This mentions that Gemini Books lasted till 1975, but I think it's likely that the imprint was never used for anything but her own book, so it's not notable as publisher. She probably wound it up in 1975 to avoid paying whatever the annual fee is for a business. I had a look for other books published under the imprint but couldn't find anything.
• [4] Can't get this to load either.
• [5] There are some clear errors in this -- her first job wasn't with Street & Smith, for example. Per Powers she was indeed keen on cats and came to believe in astrology; do you think either of those should be mentioned in the article? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:58, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Again, you know the subject far better than I could glean from simply reading the article. Trust your gut. That is precisely why confirmation of information in more than one source is optimal, IMO. Old Fulton Postcards often seems to go off-line on Sunday. Hopefully it will come back up soon. It is an amazing reference for New York papers. SusunW (talk) 18:35, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Mike Christie I don't know if you are even still working on this, but I just went to Old Fulton to search on another article and it is working. I can pull the links today, so if you are interested in the content, you might try it. Usually I do the shorten and wayback. SusunW (talk) 15:42, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi -- thanks for the nudge. I'm planning to take this to FAC, but will leave the PR open till my current FAC is done. I took a look at the two linked articles, and I don't think there's anything to be added. The claim that she's "the only woman in the world who is active editor-in-chief of such a trio" is a bit vague but would have to be better sourced anyway; there were certainly other women editors at the time, such as Mary Gnaedinger. I'd have to check but I think it's possible Gnaedinger was editing more than three magazines at around this time -- though to be fair none of them would have had anything like the circulation of Love Story. I might add something about her love of cats, but I'd source it to Powers if so. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:13, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Caeciliusinhorto

Only a few initial comments from me:

• The obvious thing that will be questioned at FA, as you are aware, is the reliance on a single source; I will see if I can find anything else of use...

  Thanks. See my comment to Susun, above; perhaps some more colour, such as her love of cats, could be added, but apparently the newspaper articles often had errors so I've preferred to rely on Powers where I can. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah, I don't think more minor details are needed – at about 3500 words, the article feels plenty long enough! I was more wondering if there were other biographical survey articles or something, but a bit of searching isn't turning anything up. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:05, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• "another interview the same year was titled "Cobbler's Child"" - the context suggests this title has something to do with Bacon's spinsterhood, but I do not understand what - can you explain?

  It's a reference to this saying. I could add a note to that effect, and find an RS for it? Or perhaps cut the title and rephrase so the question doesn't come up? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  here: A Dictionary of American Proverbs - Page 117 SusunW (talk) 15:33, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  Ah, I see. The phrase does vaguely ring a bell, but it might be worth just adding a note explaining. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:05, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  Done -- I couldn't use the one Susun found as it has no page numbers, but I found something that works. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:06, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

• "Bacon's mother died in 1936, and Bacon's journals from that time start to record that she was aware she was drinking too much. The habit probably started during Prohibition, and in early 1937 Ford's journals began to include a symbol on some days that almost certainly meant Ford had been drunk that day." Do you mean Ford here? The beginning of the paragraph is about Bacon's alcoholism - is it in fact Bacon who is drinking too much?

  Yes, dumb mistake on my part; fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• "The copyright reverted to Bacon in 1963" why did Bacon not own the copyright from publication in 1954?

  Good question. Presumably Powers is using something from Bacon's papers as the source for that, but since I have a copy of the first edition of Love Story Writer in front of me, and it says "Copyright, 1954, by Daisy Bacon" on the verso, I think she might be mistaken. The important point is Gemini Books and the reprint, so I've cut the mention of the copyright issue. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah, weird rights issues with genre fiction are not exactly unheard of so it's quite possible that Powers is correct that there was some issue, but unless we can explain what it is I think it's too confusing to say that the copyright reverted to Bacon if we can't say who had it previously or why. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:05, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Overall a well-written and interesting article! Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:16, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments -- replied above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

mujinga

Hi Mike Christie!

On the issue of one source:

• I agree with comments above about how if that's all there is then that's how it has to be. On the flipside, if newspaper reports are talking about things more substantial than hair colour which Powers disagrees with, it might be worth mentioning the disagreement in a footnote.

  I don't think there's anything worth mentioning, but will have another look. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

  fair enough! Mujinga (talk) 19:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

• Perhaps there are some reviews of Powers' book out there? I found one which is just a paragraph - doi 10.1215/00029831-8267972

  Can you check the doi? This brings me to The Scars We Carve about the Civil War -- surely not what you were seeing? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

  This is the entire bit:

Queen of the Pulps: The Reign of Daisy Bacon and “Love Story Magazine”. By Laurie Powers. Jefferson, NC: McFarland. 2019. xi, 205 pp. Paper, $39.95. As the editor of Love Story Magazine—the “biggest selling, most popular pulp fiction magazine of the period”—from 1928 until 1947, Daisy was a paradox whose personal life failed to match the “clean-cut” image of her pulp publication. Drawing on newspaper articles, anecdotes, and even Bacon’s personal diaries, Powers’s book intervenes in pulp fiction scholarship by delving into Bacon’s love affair with a married man, her calculated construction of a public image, her episodes of depression, and her fight to run a magazine that, at its zenith, had a circulation of nearly 600,000 copies per week.

If you do want to find it, I got it via Duke - Brief Mention Journal: American Literature American Literature (2020) 92 (2): 416–422. DOI: https://doi-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/10.1215/00029831-8267972

• I'm going through various academic archives (apologies if I flag up something already discussed) as it seems SusunW and Aoba47 did a good sweep of newspapers:
  • This appears to have at least a small mention of Bacon - HEFNER, BROOKS E. “ROMANCING THE RACE: THE POLITICS OF BLACK LOVE STORIES.” Black Pulp: Genre Fiction in the Shadow of Jim Crow, University of Minnesota Press, 2021, pp. 51–84. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.5749/j.ctv249sgjh.5.

    I logged in through the Wikipedia Library and it's not letting me see this; could you email the contents to me? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

    sure I'll drop you an email and when you reply i'll send it over - there's not much more than a discussion of her relationship with Gertrude Schalk but it might be useful Mujinga (talk) 19:31, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

    Received; thanks. I've added a couple of sentences based on it. I think it would also be useful for the article on Schalk, so I've left the quote from Bacon on Talk:Gertrude Schalk, and a pointer to Hefner. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:46, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  • not seeing much else
• Looking at Love Story Magazine, Michelle Nolan discusses Bacon at pulpmags - I leave it to you to decide if that's a high quality source. She in turn gives as sources:
  • Ellis, Doug, John Locke and John Gunnison. The Adventure House Guide to the Pulps, Silver Spring, MD: Adventure House, 2000.
  • Reynolds, Quentin. The Fiction Factory; Or, From Pulp Row to Quality Street: The Story of 100 Years of Publishing at Street & Smith, New York: Random House, 1955. - these might be worth checking?

    Nolan is probably a reliable source; she's the author of Love on the Racks, about romance comics, which I have on order at the library, though I don't think it'll have anything about Bacon. (I was thinking about working on Love Story Magazine next.) Pulpmags.org accepts bios from anyone, according to their about page, so I think I'd rather avoid citing it if I can. I have Ellis et al, which is little more than a checklist; and I have Reynolds, who barely mentions Bacon at all. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

• How about finding any reviews of: Bacon, Daisy. Love Story Writer, New York: Hermitage House, 1954.

  Susun found one, linked above -- it doesn't really review the book, just quotes from it and describes it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Sone suggestions based on going through the article, which is an enjoyable read:

• "was Victorian in tone" - link victorian to Victorian literature?

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

• "but the mail failed to bring the rest of the manuscript in time" sounds a bit journalistic - the rest of the manuscript was not delivered on time?

  I was trying to vary the wording from the similar statement at the start of the sentence, but I see what you mean. Rephrased; how does that look? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

  an elegant solution! Mujinga (talk) 19:31, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

• "and given to Bacon to edit from its first issue" - and Bacon became editor?

  I'd like to use a form of words that doesn't make the reader think Bacon gave up editing Love Story to edit Ainslee's. A reader might easily think that "editor of magazine X" is a job, and "editor of magazine Y" is a different job; in fact editors often had multiple magazines in their portfolio. Would "and Bacon added it to her editorial responsibilities" be better? That seems a bit long-winded to me. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

  oh i see, makes sense Mujinga (talk) 19:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

• "she seems not to have submitted it elsewhere" - her biographer Powers notes she did not submit it elsewhere?

  Powers says "... nor is there any indication that the manuscript was submitted to any other publisher". So Powers isn't sure either. I could mention Powers inline if you think that's necessary? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

  I think what's tripping me up is "seems", it doesn't feel encyclopedic but see if someone else flags it up Mujinga (talk) 19:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

• "led a year later to the arrival of Allen L. Grammer to manage the company" - meant Allen L. Grammer became manager?

  He was brought in from the outside; that's what I meant by "arrival". That's mentioned in the next sentence, but perhaps it should be in this sentence for clarity. How about "The death of George Campbell Smith, Jr., in April 1937 led a year later to the arrival of Allen L. Grammer, from Curtis Publishing, to manage the company. Grammer brought several of his staff with him, and ..."? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

  that sounds great! Mujinga (talk) 19:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

  OK, done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:18, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

• "Bacon was frequently interviewed while working at Street & Smith" - interviwed by newspapers? tv? women? - further I'd say who she was profiled by and commented to

  Newspapers mostly, but some radio -- I don't think TV interviews were really a thing before she retired. Added a few words. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

• 25% increase - percent per MOS:%

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

• "She only had a short time" suggest "Bacon only had a short time" otherwise it could be Dent's wife

  Yes, good catch. Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

• "Bacon also began to suffer from depression" - Use "she" and/or merge with previous sentence?

  I made it "She" and didn't merge it. Aoba47 commented (above) that we should be careful about implying that the cause of her depression was Miller -- the section was originally titled "Relationship with Henry Miller", and changed to eliminate the implication that Bacon's depression and alcoholism were because of Miller. I think it's worth keeping the sentences separate for the same reason. Ideally I'd like to cover the depression and alcoholism in another section from the one on Miller but that would be too confusing for the reader, I think. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

  ok makes sense Mujinga (talk) 19:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

• Overall there are quite a lot of "but"s

  Wow, there were indeed. Searched for them and killed a few. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

• Hope these comments are useful and would be great to see this at FAC! Mujinga (talk) 19:08, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks! Very helpful. Some replies above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

  Nice one I replied on a few things and I'll send that book over, cheers! Mujinga (talk) 19:31, 30 June 2023 (UTC)