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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tiny Thompson

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 05:55, 21 December 2008 [1].

Tiny Thompson edit

Nominator(s): Maxim(talk)

By far not the biggest article ever nominated to be featured, nor the smallest, this article is about an NHL goaltender who played during the Dirty Thirties mostly for the Boston Bruins. He is noted for being the first goaltender to catch the puck in order to stop it, and the first NHLer to intentionally make an assist by firing the puck to a teammate with his stick. Please see my extended notes on the article on the talkpage. Maxim(talk) 02:34, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments (I love reviewing short articles; thanks for nominating this!)
  • In the Early life section, specify when he was born.
    • Done.
  • The first four sentences of the Early life section begin with "[Something], Thompson...".
    • Fixed.
  • As a teenager playing competitive ice hockey, Thompson picked up the nickname "Tiny" as a joke, because he was the tallest player on team, standing 5 ft 10 in (1.8 m); the nickname stuck with him for the rest of his career. - Is there a better term for "picked up"?
    • Fixed with "acquired".
  • After receiving advice from Reid, Thompson issued an ultimatum to his coach: either he (Thompson) played goaltender, or he would quit the team. - No need for "he".
    • Clarified wording.
  • In the 1933–34 season, the Bruins missed the playoffs for the second time with Thompson in nets, posting a 18–25–5 record, with Thompson in nets for all 48 games[8] - Needs a full stop.
    • Fixed.
  • However, in the playoffs, Boston was swept in three games in the first round by the Maple Leafs. - Context needed for "swept".
    • Clarified.
  • Thompson used gloves that were smaller than a regular player's. - "Player's" → "players'".
    • It refers to player's gloves. Clarified the wording.
  • Is it possible to merge the Legacy section?
    • I thought of this too, but the problem IMO is to where to merge it. And I think, albeit its stubbiness, it's better to leave it where it is.

–Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 03:36, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

      • First replies by Maxim(talk) @ 14:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC).[reply]
        • Looks good, I just have one more comment. Is it possible to move the image in the Playing style section to the infobox? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 15:50, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • No, since it would be a fair use problem, as the image is discussed and helps explain a section, and not simply illustrating the subject. Maxim(talk) 15:52, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - It always takes me a while to review long pages, so there's nothing wrong with bringing "tiny" articles here. :-) (Come on, that was too easy)

  • I'd delink professional in the lead, because it's really too general for the topic.
  • Buffalo Bisons links to a minor league baseball team. Buffalo Bisons (AHL) is the correct link.
  • Early life: "however, he agreed to do so, so he could be accepted..." Double so here. I think some rephrasing is in order.
    • For this, "however, he agreed to do so that he would be accepted..." Now it reads like there's a word missing. Still needs a little work. Giants2008 (17-14) 02:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pre-NHL career: Link the Memorial Cup. Also, what is the CCSHL?
  • "with 1.64 goals-against-average". Should it be "with a 1.64 goals-against-average"?

Busy studying right now in real life, but will return after finals in a few days. Giants2008 (17-14) 22:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

After a break of several days, I'm back to finish reviewing this article. Luckily, there isn't that much of it; however, I am somewhat concerned about that. I'll explain at the end.
  • NHL career: "owing to his good reputation in Minnesota.." No, those aren't ellipses. :-)
  • "becoming the only Hockey Hall of Fame goaltender acomplish this feat." At least there's only one period. :-):-) Seriously, it needs an extra word and a spelling fix.
  • The Stanley Cup Finals each have their own articles, which might be useful links.
  • "the Boston Bruins missed the playoffs for the first time while Thompson was a member of the team, He won only..." Punctuation is off.
  • "In the next season, The Bruins..." Remove capitalization from The.
  • "he won the Vezina Trophy for his second time." → "he won his second Vezina Trophy."
  • "with Thompson in nets for all 48 games." Should "nets" be plural or not?
  • "with 26–16–6 record" → "with a 26–16–6 record".
  • "with Thompson making 10 shutouts." Found a "noun-plus-ing" stucture. I don't think "making" works well here anyway.
    • This is still a noun-plus-ing structure. How about "as Thompson recorded 10 shutouts."? Giants2008 (17-14) 02:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At the conclusion of season..." Should be "of the season".
    • Perhaps "At the end of the season" would be best? Giants2008 (17-14) 02:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Detroit Red Wings: "Change the semi-colon after "10 regular season shutouts" to a period.
  • 'Thompson was traded for Normie Smith and $15,000 to the Detroit Red Wings". Try "Thompson was traded to the Detroit Red Wings for Normie Smith and $15,000".
  • Post-NHL career: "in the 1940–41 season,," What is going on with the double punctuations?
  • Playing style: "risking being hit with the puck when moving to catch a puck..." Two pucks this close together is probably a redundancy. I would just write "moving to catch it".
  • Johnny Bower, a former goaltender who was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fam". Another typo.
  • My overriding concern with the article is most evident when his career is described, but I sense it throughout. The article feels overly statistical to me. I fully understand that quality sources are probably hard to come by, but I feel like the page needs a few more interesting facts about him. For example, are there any quotes from other player on some of Thompson, similar to the one at the end? Did he have any particularly memorable games during his career? I liked the Playing style section, and thought the first paragraph of Early life was interesting. I'd like to see more of this if possible to break up the statistics.
For now, I'm going to oppose due to the large number of typos. I'll re-assess it when they are dealt with. Giants2008 (17-14) 00:32, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed everything. As for the interesting stuff, I would have sworn I put something about his sextuple-overtime game. Turns out I forgot to. I've expanded the article past 2000 words. Maxim(talk) 01:37, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm setting the Wikipedia record for "fastest response to a ping". :-) I'm happy with most of the changes, so I'm dropping the oppose. The article still feels too stat-happy for my tastes, but that is just my opinion; other reviewers can decide how valid it is. The addition is nice, but I wish there was more unique info like that out there. Giants2008 (17-14) 02:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed the other things. I still haven't given up on other things, and I may prune it later. --Maxim(talk) 02:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
From a quick scan, it looks a bit better in terms of how it has been made less stat-intensive, though I did make a couple quick grammar fixes. I need to read it again and see if anything still needs tweaking, but it's heading in the right direction. Preferably, I'd like to wait until any copy-editing has been completed. When that happens, feel free to ping me again. Giants2008 (17-14) 03:44, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments -

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:44, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Replies by Maxim(talk) at 16:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC).[reply]
To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. While these sites give their sources, they are essentially WP:SPS and need to satisfy that also. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:23, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If I may butt in, www.hockeydb.com/ has had its accuracy vouched for by Sports Illustrated here. For Hockey Goalies, I wish we had proof that Doug Norris, the author, is a recognized hockey writer. Has he written any books, or been a newspaper or magazine columnist? Without that, I don't know if even the bibliography is enough. Giants2008 (17-14) 16:40, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Replied again at 16:43, 7 December 2008 (UTC). Maxim(talk)
The hockeydb ref is good, thanks to Giants, so you can put that back in. I'd love for the hockeygoalies site to be proven, but it's been replaced for now so it's good, and I'm unwatching this FAC. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:49, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: Please include a date and author (photographer) for Image:Tiny Thompson.jpg. I'm guessing the image was taken after 1923. If that is the case, the licensing for the image is incorrect. Please find who holds the copyright to this image. If the photographer who took it is dead, he may have left his work to an agency. You can start with the Hockey Hall of Fame. As it stands, this image will have to be removed to be promoted to FA until you can learn more about its licensing. Please let me know if you have questions. --Moni3 (talk) 15:02, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Um, it is obviously made after 1923, see, if you had actually read the article than believe your opinion is automatically the deciding factor in promoting this, you would have known that Thompson played for Boston starting in 1928. The concept of fair use does not exist in Canada, so the HHOF has the rights to that image, and having it here and claimed as fair use will not impede their commercial opportunities since they're not trying to sell the image. Maxim(talk) 20:06, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is why the information for the image should be complete. Thompson is wearing a Boston jersey in the image. Where was it taken? In the US or Canada? Who was the photographer? When was it published for the first time? In the US or Canada? If the Hockey Hall of Fame owns the image, or has rights to the image, a link to that statement should be included in the information summary. The link goes to the jpg, but no information on their website appears readily available to state that the Hockey Hall of Fame owns the image, or has released it to be used. I've had to hunt down this information in the articles I've nominated for FA as well. I know it's stressful during the FAC, but it must be done. I can help you, and I am willing to do so. I notice Jacques Plante was passed with a similar non-free image (Image:Plante firstmask.jpg), yet no image review had been completed during that FAC. User:SandyGeorgia can clarify her procedure for promoting articles with image problems, and I'm willing to ask for more guidance on this image, but asking for the date and photographer is not an outrageous request. Clarifying its licensing to improve a blanket Fair Use Rationale isn't either. --Moni3 (talk) 20:43, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This image is from the HHOF. Looks like a staged shot in the Boston Gardens. If this so damn vital to you, you could at least make a tiny effort to look at the site: it's (c) All Rights Reserved, but this is a fair-use exception. If I had to guess at the date, it would be after 1935 judging by Thompson's appearance. As for the Plante stuff, I fail to see how that's relevant at an FAC for Tiny Thompson. Maxim(talk) 22:00, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good gracious, Maxim. Do you understand I'm not trying to impede this article's promotion, but ensure it is the absolute best it can be? I don't understand the hostility. But the fact remains: there is no date for the image, and no explicit statement in the image summary to state who owns it. I have, actually, checked out legendsofhockey.net, and noted that this image is one of several images featuring Thompson (his bio gallery), and none of those have explicit statements to say who took them, where, etc. They were rather careful to state that all portraits were copyrighted and certainly not free to be used. So the question remains to be answered. I bet I could find it (or get a giant push in the right direction) if I called the Hockey Hall of Fame. But this is your area of expertise. --Moni3 (talk) 23:01, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If I e-mail the HHOF, it will take most likely more than a few days. If I had take a shot at the date, I'd say between 1935 and 1938. As for the HHOF's futile attempts to block me with JS, do you believe that because of their attempt the image may not meet NFCC#2. I confess that I'm really struggling to address your concern. I'm sorry for my previous hostility, it's just I've had more than enough troubles finding an image for the article... but I'll bear with you. Maxim(talk) 02:12, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Maxim. Sorry for not replying. I completely understand your frustration. Recently, I had a non-free image with a purpose so impressive it was used as an example in a non-free image dispatch, then put up for deletion by another admin. I encourage you to call the HHOF. Seriously, I call all over the place to get what's needed for my articles. Most people reply quite nicely. If you call them and ask for a media representative as if you were asking question on behalf of a publication, the right person may be able to answer the questions about who owns it. If they own it, ask them if Wikipedia can use it, with the magic release: I own the copyright to the images found attached in this email. I grant permission to copy, distribute and/or modify these documents under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. Then send that agreement to permissions@wikipedia.org and change the licensing of the image to GFDL. Even if the response takes longer than the FAC, I have removed images to have the article pass the process, then re-added them when I got the proper permissions. Let me know if I can help. --Moni3 (talk) 20:36, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So to put it in a nutshell, you suggest I remove and delete the image pending communication with the HHOF? Maxim(talk) 21:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image in article is fine. --Moni3 (talk) 23:03, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - The article as a whole is repetitively using sentences that start with "Thompson" (Thompson is [...]. Thompson appears [...]. In 19xx, Thompson joins [...]. Thompson uses [...]. etc). This is most noticeable in "Playing style", where the first three consecutive sentences start with "Thompson". Jappalang (talk) 01:52, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gave it a polish. Maxim(talk) 02:12, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose by karanacs for now. Short articles, unfortunately, make it easier to pick out prose issues. I've listed some examples below. I'm also not that familiar with hockey, and some pieces of the article lost me.

  • The lead makes it sound like Thompson personally won the Stanley Cup - this is misleading for readers not very familiar with hockey.
  • Fixed.
  • Lead prose needs a bit of massaging. In a two-sentence span, "playing" and "played" are used 3 times.
  • Fixed.
  • This particular issue is fixed, but there is more in the lead that could be tightened. It needs a bit of help to flow better; removing redundancy is one way to do that. Karanacs (talk) 18:50, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead doesn't need to repeat his date of death, as that is already in the first sentence.
  • removed.
  • Prose could use some massaging. Examples from the early life section:
    • "stuck to" not really encyclopedic
    • "often watched Reid perform in goal from the front row seat directly behind the nets" - what does "perform in goal" mean? and this could be read that Reid was performing from the front row seat...make sure punctuation and transition words are correct; "behind the nets" is jargon that may not make sense to people who haven't watched hockey before
      • Better, but could still be read that Reid was performing from the front row. Karanacs (talk) 18:50, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've tried to simplify or explain these as needed.
  • I think early life and Pre-NHL career should probably be combined. those sections are both very short.
  • Agreed, personally, and I have done so. We'll let Maxim decide for good when he's back.  ;)
  • I feel like we are lacking a little context in the article.
    • How did Thompson convince Reid to become his mentor?
    • Did Reid provide only verbal advice or also help coach Thompson on how to physically play?
    • is surrendering 11 goals in two games good/bad/average?
      • Fixed. (Not shabby at all in that time) Maxim
    • What is the Memorial Cup and why is it important?
    • Was it unusual to begin playing at age 14?
      • Depends on what kind of team the Monarchs were, so I can't make any assumptions. Maxim
    • What is "goals-against average"? Were his numbers significant at all?
  • Why did Art Ross buy Thompson's contract is he had never seen Thompson play? Was his reputation that good?
    • Clarified Maxim
      • Information is good, presentation not so much. Karanacs (talk) 18:50, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Watch for repetitive phrasing - for example, "in his first NHL game, he posted a shutout, becoming the only Hockey Hall of Fame goaltender to post a shutout in his first game " - "post(ed) a shutout" repeated and "in his first..." repeated.
  • Fixed.
  • Any information on the names of his parents? Did he have any other siblings besides Paul? Was Paul older or younger? Where did Tiny fall in the birth order?
    • The only thing I have is that Paul was younger. Maxim
  • What is a vezina Trophy? (We shouldn't have to click all the links to find out)
  • Clarified.
  • This sentence jams together two thoughts in a very awkward way: "In the 1931–32 season, the Boston Bruins missed the playoffs for the first time while Thompson was a member of the team, appearing in 43 out of Boston's 48 games, and winning only 13"
  • Broke into two sentences.
  • Better. Second sentence still awkward. Karanacs (talk) 18:50, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why did he appear in only 5 games in the 1938-39 season, when he did so well the season before?
    • He would be traded. Clarified. Maxim
  • Why did he choose to leave Detroit? (or was it his choice?)
  • Why did he serve as goaltender just once while he was coach?
  • Thompson had retired upon leaving Detroit (to answer your question above), and served as a goaltender only on an emergency basis with the RCAF Mustangs when the team's usual goaltenders were injured. This is stated in the article, but I will try to clarify it. Resolute
  • Why did he stop coaching?
  • During the war, the Alberta Senior Hockey League was a military league. Once the war ended, it returned to being civilian, with a new set of teams. I'll try to find a cite and explanation for this. Resolute
  • Any information on famous players that he originally recruited when he was a scout?
    • Not really. Res may have some, since he has access to the Calgary newspaper archives. Maxim
  • Any information about how long he served as a scout?
  • "using gloves that were smaller than a regular player's ones" -> "using smaller gloves than most players" or "using gloves that were smaller than those of other players"... current wording not proper grammar
  • This makes no sense to me "Although he caught the puck with his glove, he did so without gloves resembling the modern blocker and trapper combination"
    • I would explain this as that the blocker/trapper were developed specifically to block the puck with the blocker or catch with the trapper, but I'm not sure on how to this in the article. Maxim
      • I don't know what blocker or trapper is, and it was a bit annoying to have to read the links to figure out that they were pieces of equipment rather than roles that players play.Karanacs (talk) 18:50, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • This sounds like an opinion being stated as fact. May need to attribute the opinion in the article text "He was a good puckhandler, and one of the best of his time at forward passing"
  • Did the rules change to allow catching the puck with bare hand? I'm wondering why no one else had done it before
    • I think it's one of these quirks about goalies--they were barefaced in nets 'till the 60s. Maxim
  • the info about Georges Vezina seems a bit misplaced here. That might make a good footnote
  • I think the first two sections of Legacy should be merged with the Playing style, as it really fits better
    • I've merged the Legacy section. Maxim
  • Are there any quotations from his induction into the Hall of Fame that could be included?
  • I had searched both Calgary newspapers from the time of his induction, however at that point in time, Hall of Fame inductions evidently were not big news, as the only thing I found was a two sentence blurb in the Calgary Herald stating that he had been inducted. It is unlikely that there are any such quotations. Resolute
  • It's not really important that he left behind two grandchildren....just that he had one daughter and had been married.
  • Any information on when he married?
  • I could probably find this information in a back issue of a Calgary newspaper if I had any clue what date it might be. His obituary did not say. Resolute
    • I suggest to look around the mid 1920s to early 1930s, as marrying between late teens and mid 20s seems logical in that time. Maxim
  • Current ref 27 does not have New York times italicized; it should be, since it is a newspaper

Karanacs (talk) 20:45, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'll field some of these, as they touch to the parts I researched. Specifically, his time as a coach in Calgary and his HOF induction. Resolute 21:29, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Karanacs, thanks for your lengthy review. I'm experienced a period of unexpected business, so it may take some time (not an excessive amount, just longer than usual) for the to fix all these problems you've pointed out. Thanks a lot, Maxim(talk) 23:57, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've attempted some of the MOS fixes, and I could explain many of the other concerns with logical assumptions - i.e.: that he would only have played goal while serving as his teams' coach on an emergency basis, as it was nearly impossible for a goaltender to also coach his team, given he would have to be focused on the play for the entire game, neglecting his coaching duties. That is not really something I could put into the article, however, for obvious reasons. Resolute 01:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Karanacs, thank you very much for you very lengthly review. It is very useful to have someone who isn't that familiar with hockey do such a thorough review. Maxim(talk) 23:26, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry it took me so long to come back. I think the prose still needs work; the examples I gave of prose issues were only examples. Since the last time I read this, the grammar and spelling have further deteriorated. Here's a very specific one that I found this read - "to do be in net ". I highly recommend a good independent copyeditor - once you've looked at an article long enough it's hard to identify where the issues actually are. Also, the first section mentions that he was on a junior team in Canmore, then goes on later to say that " began his junior career playing for the Calgary Monarchs ". Seems a bit of a disconnect there. Karanacs (talk) 18:50, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in the process of recruiting copyeditor(s). Maxim(talk) 00:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Still working on it, hope to have a definite answer soon. Maxim(talk) 02:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I did some minor cleanup of punctuation and linking, but following the comments of the above editors, I think this article now meets the criteria. Resolute 01:36, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support All issues cleaned up now, meeting all criteria. Kaiser matias (talk) 06:51, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Personally, I would prefer the image remained in the infobox. I understand it is a fair use image, but it seems to make the most sense. Anyway, I have a couple things I found, and will support upon fixation:
    • "He was not being a goaltender, but he agreed to play the position to get into games." - The phrase 'he was not being' sounds odd, rewording would help.
    • You have 3 paragraphs in a row that start with "In the ___ season"; mix it up a bit. Wizardman 23:32, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed the prose. As for the image, I will admit I am not the biggest fan of fair-use, and I am only using it because it is very difficult to explain the section where it's used, for which the rationale is specifically written. Using it in the corner is merely illustrative and contradicts the rationale for use. Maxim(talk) 02:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fair enough. I'll Support now. Wizardman 18:01, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per cleanup. And comments from other supporters--Judo112 (talk) 15:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment There's some discussion here. Maxim(talk) 21:25, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – Looks good. The cleanup done by Maxim (talk · contribs) seems to have cleared all the issues enough for me to support. I've been basically watching the development of this article ever since it first appeared on WP:DYK. No problems here. – RyanCross (talk) 02:21, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I didn't make it past the second sentence; agree with Karanacs' assessment that an independent copyedit is needed.
  • He played 12 seasons National Hockey League (NHL), playing for the Boston Bruins and Detroit Red Wings.
  • No need to rush, Julian; I'll check next time (lots to get through still). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:26, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Copyedit done, albeit a fairly quick one. It should have taken care of any major prose issues, though. –Juliancolton Happy Holidays 02:13, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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