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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Thunderbirds (TV series)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 13:03, 6 September 2015 [1].

Thunderbirds (TV series) edit

Nominator(s): SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 02:01, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My second Featured Article nomination after five years, for a programme that is 50 years old this year. Promoted to Good Article status in December, it has since been copy-edited several times and provides – in my opinion, at least – a comprehensive treatment of the subject's main elements (particularly its production) and appropriate summary treatment of its sub-elements. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 02:01, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Cambalachero edit

Image review
File:Thunderbirds logo.jpg is a non-free image, and seems to have a correct rationale. File:Hood and Scott Tracy puppets from Thunderbirds.jpg seems to be fine; the photo failed to include the full right puppet, but it's a minor detail and can not be fixed. File:Lorne Greene - 1969.jpg seems to be fine. File:Sean Connery 1964.png uses the "no copyright notice" license for a TV screenshot, which seems a bit innapropiate. File:Robert Reed 1971.JPG seems to be fine. File:Adam Faith headshot.jpg seems to be fine. File:Charlton Heston - 1953.jpg seems to be fine. File:AnthonyPerkins.jpg uses a license that goes from 1923 to 1963, so we need the exact date to know if the image is covered by it or not ("the 1960s" is not good enough, because it may a moment between 1964 and 1969). File:Stourhead House (8349738431).jpg seems to be fine (it lacked a FOP license, but I added one). File:RP1357 p8 Soyuz Rocket.svg needs more information: as detailed in the license, the NASA host images of the Soviet program, which may not be in the public domain. File:ThunderbirdsFAB (Cropped).jpg seems to be fine. Cambalachero (talk) 16:48, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that better-licensed alternatives for Connery and Perkins are available, although I note your comment below regarding the use of this gallery in general. The source of the Soyuz image is a large PDF filled with schematics of both US and Soviet space vehicles, all drawn in the same style. Based on this, as well as the fact that the image is an outline rather than a photograph, I'm doubtful that it originated outside NASA. As the figures in the PDF aren't individually credited, however, I'm not sure how this could be proven beyond all doubt. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 00:12, 12 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Soyuz image has been replaced with File:Hawker Siddeley Gnat T1, UK - Air Force AN2239232.jpg, which illustrates a different aspect of the production. It is OTRS-confirmed and does not, as far as I can see, present any licensing concerns. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 22:31, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
All the images used seem to be fine now. Cambalachero (talk) 16:04, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Great to know! SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 23:46, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Storyline
Are the characters named after the astronauts in-story? If someone does not know about them, is the TV series explicit in that point? Some words and expressions are a bit puffery, such as "Unknown to the rest of the world" or "the force behind"; use simpler terms. Do we really need so many trivial details about the cars? Name and pilots should be enough. Same goes for the overly detailed info about the defenses of the island or the motivations of the heroes and villains: you have to use a summary of the important and defining info. The last two paragraphs (analysis of the continuity snarls on the date and the hidden meaning of the call) are not needed and should be removed. Cambalachero (talk) 18:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the characters' names – no, there is no in-universe explanation to that effect. It was merely the producers' intention. I have therefore moved this information to the production section. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 00:12, 12 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The text seems to be better now, but the use of a list in this location does not seem correct. It may be better to simply turn it into a paragraph. Cambalachero (talk) 16:09, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The paragraph ended by this sentence discusses writing and character development. Character naming falls under character development. I'm not sure what purpose would be served by splitting this paragraph. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 23:46, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Production
In the first paragraph, try to avoid the use of parentheses for sentence-long comments. It's better to just reformulate them as new sentences. In the second, "The local authorities..." is a 4-lines long sentence, try to reformulate it. In the third, do not include wikilinks inside of quotations. The sentence that mentions Bonanza should end there, and the rest be another sentence. World War II is far more common than "second world war". I'm not sure if the word "illusion" is appropiate. Cambalachero (talk) 14:30, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The section seems to be fine now. Cambalachero (talk) 16:11, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Filming
Again, try to avoid the use of parentheses. "(which were designated "A" and "B")" can easily be a text written after a comma. As for units, please choose one and use it from the them on, there's no need to keep giving numbers in both systems all the time. Watch out for overly long sentences. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons should be clearly described as such when linked, not linked under the name "new concept" (the reader must have it clear what is the link that he would follow). Cambalachero (talk) 13:35, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"separate "A" and "B" crews" may be replaced simply by "separate crews". You do not say anything specific about A or B, and the name used to set them apart is trivial. Cambalachero (talk) 16:16, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The A and B distinction becomes relevant further on, at the end of the third-from-last paragraph: most of the filming for Series Two was handled by B crew, since A crew was busy shooting the film sequel Thunderbirds Are Go. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 23:46, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Casting and characters
The "Other occupation(s)" field is an unneeded second field for in-universe information, and makes the column too wide. "Role" should be enough. Cambalachero (talk) 13:43, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Section seems to be fine now. Cambalachero (talk) 16:18, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Design and effects
Seems fine Cambalachero (talk) 14:17, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Puppets
The actors whose likeness has been used for inspiration seems a bit trivial to include in photos, specially if it is such a wide set of photos. Again, watch out for the use of parentheses. Cambalachero (talk) 14:46, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Special effects
"Special effects" is a common word and does not need to be linked. "evolved from his wish" does not sound like good writing. In "This decision was not informed by any expert mechanical knowledge on Meddings' part: "The model just looked better that way.", the quote doesn't really add much; just skip the intro and say directly that it was a personal preference. Cambalachero (talk) 19:54, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The section seems to be fine now. Cambalachero (talk) 16:22, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Title sequence
Seems fine. Cambalachero (talk) 12:39, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Music
As pointed before, don't use wikilinks inside of quotations. Cambalachero (talk) 12:45, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Section seems to be fine now. Cambalachero (talk) 16:19, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Broadcast
Seems fine Cambalachero (talk) 18:36, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Cambalachero: I believe that all the textual issues raised above have been seen to. What do you think of the article in its current state? SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 22:31, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Cas Liber edit

Two series and thirty-two 50-minute episodes were filmed - sounds like the two are additive. I'd change to something like, "Two series comprising a total of thirty-two 50-minute episodes were filmed" or something similar.
Corrected.
technological superiority - I'd say "advanced technology" or just "technology"
Changed to "technology".
The Tracy brothers took their names from... - I'd not make the characters the subjects, as it was the creators who determined the names, so make passive or make creators somehow subjects
Changed to "The Tracy brothers were named after ..."
– due to the series' technical complexity, a longer period than for any of APF's earlier series. - this looks wierd as ndash then comma as it makes the "longer period" relate to the clause immediately before it rather than the "five months" - I'd make it two ndashes.
Split into two sentences.
..in an effort to go against viewer expectations - wish there was another way to phrase this...although an alternative isn't springing to mind...
What do you think of "to defy the viewer's expectations"?
Better...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:53, 13 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'd link petrol jelly
The sources give "petrol gel". I'm not sure how this became "jelly".

Looking on target for FA status otherwise I think...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:18, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ummm...@SuperMarioMan:? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:52, 12 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Casliber: Sorry for my delay in replying here. I think that the points above have been addressed. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 00:20, 13 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, am happy with comprehensiveness and prose. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:53, 13 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for your support! SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 13:37, 13 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support
  • I think the whole article is superb. Loved it. Couldn't find anything wrong, except that there is a footnote required at the end of the last sentence of "Filming". Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:59, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you very much for your support! I've added a page reference for Captain Scarlet. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 00:20, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note -- Welcome back to FAC, SuperMarioMan. Since it's been a long time between drinks, I'd like to see a reviewer conduct a spotcheck of sources for accuracy and avoidance of close paraphrasing, as well as the usual source review for formatting and reliability. Requests for those can be posted at the top of WT:FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:22, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Source review/spot check by Cas Liber edit

In progress....

I've removed TV.com as being largely similar to IMDb. While the latter is something of a must for film and TV articles, the former isn't. I've also removed the Anderson Entertainment and Screenonline links as they are both single pages (remembering point #1 of WP:ELNO); I think that the latter works better as a reference.

The official website by Carlton, though no longer active, is still included (relevant guideline: WP:ELOFFICIAL). After some thought, I've also retained the BBC Online link – it is authoritative on the subject of Thunderbirds (being part of the official website of a broadcaster) and does, I believe, "provide a unique resource" beyond what the article would contain if it became Featured.

This reduces the number of external links from six to three. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 00:16, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Be consistent in how you write the publisher location (i.e. locale, state/country, or just locale alone)
  • Pageranges - you have "17-18" (i.e. 2 or all digits) in one bit and "121–2" (1 digit) - align one way or the other...
  • Also - align all the titles of references so they are in all title case or sentence case.
Formatting is now consistent throughout. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 00:16, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Formatting of refs otherwise looks ok.

Spot checking...

  • Earwigs comes up with a false positive from a mirror site, otherwise looks ok.
  • Online refs 104, 199 and 218 (using this version of the page) check out.
  • Online ref 9 used three times - twice fine, but source does not mention "April 2015" as date screened, just "2015". so to be faithful, we must either lose the "April" or add a source that says it screened in April
This has been re-sourced. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 00:16, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise looking ok. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:20, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Wikipedian Penguin edit

Overall, this is very well written and only requires a few tweaks. Some queries...

  • "... he exerts a powerful telepathic control over his estranged half-brother, Kyrano, and manipulates the Tracys into missions that unfold according to his nefarious designs."—this sentence gives the impression of introducing Kyrano for the first time, when in actuality he is mentioned earlier.
  • It needs to be explicitly stated that there were two filming crews, A crew and B crew, because the two crews are mentioned in passing as if we are already familiar with these names.
  • "He therefore asked Anderson to devise a new concept – which, in his estimation, stood a greater chance of winning over the profitable US market."—it's unclear what exactly "which" is referring to in this sentence.
More coming; I've read up to Casting and characters. The Wikipedian Penguin 22:36, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... typically measuring twelve by fourteen by three metres (39.4 by 45.9 by 9.8 ft) in length, width and height."—why spell out the dimensions in metres but write the feet in figures? It is not aesthetically pleasing and does not accord with the MOS.
  • "...director of photography John Read discussed the advantages of circumventing the puppets' lack of agility 'so that they appear, for example, to walk through doors (although the control wires make this impossible) or pick up a coffee cup (although their fingers are not in fact jointed).'"—literally, this is saying that he discussed the lack of agility so that the puppets appear to walk through doors or pick up a coffee cup, which does not make sense. The Wikipedian Penguin 17:03, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Models and sets were also 'dirtied down' with powder paint or pencil lead to create a used appearance."—"used appearance" is rather odd. Something like "to make them appear used"? The piped link to Used good is up to you.
    • I've changed it to "used look". "Used" in this case means more "worn-out", or even "dilapidated" (although that's probably too strong a word), than "second-hand". SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 20:27, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • We have critical praise/criticism in the reception section, where it should belong, but also some scattered in other sections, like Title sequence and Special effects. What was your approach to this?
    • The effects, music and title sequence are major aspects and arguably the most important reasons behind the series' popularity. It therefore seems appropriate to include a certain amount of critical opinion that is aimed directly at these elements. I've chosen to place all of this in the relevant sub-sections of "Production" so as to keep the focus of the main "Reception" section (which is already quite long) on the series in general. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 12:45, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...the Thunderbirds title sequence varies with each episode: the first part consists of a rapidly-edited action montage that serves as a preview of the plot."—what does "rapidly-edited" mean? Anything like fast cutting?
    • You're correct. The adjective doesn't really add anything of importance, however, so I've simply removed it. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 20:27, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "'Thunderbirds Are Go!' – the track accompanying the launch sequences of Thunderbirds 1, 2 and 3 – is praised by AllMusic's Heather Phares as a reflection of the mod aspect of 1960s British spy fiction."—the use of passive voice here is very awkward. The Wikipedian Penguin 16:36, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Granada transmitted Thunderbirds in unedited form for the first time with the start of repeats in 1966."—"unedited" was unclear to me at first. Make it explicit that they aired the 50-minute/1-hour form.
  • "In 1990, eight of the 19 audio episodes released by APF Records were converted into radio dramas..."—one of the exceptions to the MOS:NUM rule of thumb is that comparable numbers and numbers representing ratios be formatted the same way (i.e. either both figures or both words). So, either say "8 of the 19" or "eight of the nineteen". The Wikipedian Penguin 18:06, 29 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some elaboration on why Marriot believes the series was technologically influential would be helpful.
    • I'll expand on this. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 12:45, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • The author elaborates to a certain extent but doesn't give any concrete examples to support the assertion. Removed. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 20:27, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Simon Heffer, a fan of the series in childhood, has commented positively on the series for The Daily Telegraph..."—I feel like "has commented" should simply be "commented", consistent with similar instances.
  • "However, he also opines regretfully that the 'tongue-in-cheek' humour of Stingray is less evident."—"opined" is right, but it's relatively inaccessible language for most readers.
  • "Thomas argues that the world of Thunderbirds is broadly similar that of the 1960s in so far as contemporary capitalism and class structures have survived mostly unchanged."—not sure what you're trying to say here.
  • "...arguing that its rejection of stereotyping is most evident when it is actively used to positive effect..."—the show rejects stereotyping by actively using it to positive effect? Maybe that is what you mean, but the example doesn't help much in clarifying.
  • "Bignell comments that the Hood's Oriental appearance and mysterious powers draw parallels with James Bond villains and fears of China acting as 'a "third force" antagonistic to the West'."—so we have a mix of "commented", "has commented" and now "comments"; why?
    • I've written the "Reception" section so that it contains a range of contemporary and more recent opinions; the former are framed using the past tense, the latter more often the present tense. I appreciate that this could be confusing and will therefore try to stick to the simple past when I revise this section. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 12:45, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He suggests that Thunderbirds adheres more closely to cultural norms in its subscription to the 'cult of the secret agent whose skills defend the home from enemies unknown', for which it can be compared to The Avengers or Danger Man."—I don't understand this at all, sorry.
  • "...with the revived merchandising campaign more successful than that of the Star Wars trilogy."—implies the Star Wars trilogy also had a revived merchandising campaign. Note that this sentence was modified by me so that it could not be interpreted as the Thunderbirds toy line being more successful than Star Wars itself rather than the latter's merchandise. However, the original version of the sentence had the sample problem (re. "revived").
  • "A full-length "Thunderbirds" strip appeared a year later, at which point the "Lady Penelope" strip was given its own comic."—why quotation marks for Thunderbirds?
    • I was under the impression that comic strip titles used quotation marks, although I agree that they aren't really necessary here. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 12:45, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Write "United States" on first occurrence and then use "US" on subsequent instances.
  • Just a thought, but perhaps end the "Influence" section (therefore ending the entire article) with a quote from someone summing up the impact the show has had in the world in general? Are there such quotes available? It would really be a nice way to touch off and conclude such a long article.
    • I'm sure that a relevant quotation is available. There are sources included in the "Reception" section that could do this quite nicely. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 12:45, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This may look like a sizeable list, but given the length of the article, it is actually quite good. The Wikipedian Penguin 00:35, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'll revise the "Reception" section to clear up the ambiguities and standardise tense. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 12:45, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think that most of the above points have been resolved. Detailed response on quotations and tense, which are slightly more complicated, coming soon. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 03:35, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Having reviewed MOS:TENSE, I think that the default tense for "Reception" should be the present. Regular use of the past tense seems odd if you don't specify the years in which the various commentators made their remarks – and to do that would make the section sound very repetitive. The second half of the third paragraph is in the past tense because those statements are time-dependent (i.e. as Hood, Thomas and Viner are talking about the series' lasting appeal over generations). Most of the other opinions are, in a way, "timeless", and therefore do not seem to merit the past tense. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 20:27, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support - and recusing as closing coordinator - This is a well-written and fascinating account of a much loved TV series from my childhood. I watched all of the Anderson's productions when they were first aired. Having read this wonderfully comprehensive article I no longer have any excuse to believe that Scott, Virgil, Gordon, John, Penelope and Parker were real people. But I am not going to stop playing with my Thunderbirds models. Fantastic article. Thank you. Graham Beards (talk) 10:51, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support – This is a beautifully written article on a TV show which I have liked since childhood and I have no shame of supporting this work for featured article candidacy. Z105space (talk) 16:44, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Nominator Note: I mentioned in my opening statement that this series has its 50th anniversary this year. In fact, it turns 50 at the end of this month – the first episode was first broadcast on 30 September 1965. As the TFA for 30 September has not yet been selected, should this FAC result in promotion (and if there is still time) I will definitely be nominating the article for a Main Page appearance on that date. I think that it would be a great tribute. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 03:35, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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