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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Thomas Hardy (Royal Navy officer, died 1732)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Hog Farm via FACBot (talk) 26 December 2022 [1].

Thomas Hardy (Royal Navy officer, died 1732) edit

Nominator(s): Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 18:19, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Sir Thomas Hardy, a distinctly unimpressive but surprisingly successful Royal Navy officer. While commanding a ship during the War of the Spanish Succession his chaplain discovered the location of a Spanish treasure fleet, resulting in the Battle of Vigo Bay and a knighthood for Hardy. Further commands and promotion followed for him, but in return all Hardy provided for the navy was a tendency to fail to find and engage the enemy. He would go on to be court martialled once for this but continued to be employed, until in 1716 his illustrious career was terminated possibly because he was a Jacobite. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 18:19, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments edit

  • "Promoted to post-captain in 1693" - is there a link for that rank/term? (both in lead and body)
  • It is already linked in both places as "captain", so to avoid confusion I've removed the "post-" in the latter mentions too.
  • "chasing him until dusk when he returned to shepherding the convoy" - change to "chasing him until dusk before returning to shepherding the convoy" to make it 100% clear who it was that returned
  • Done.
  • "was further investigated by a panel from the Admiralty, and committees of the Houses of Commons and Lords." - don't think that comma is needed
  • Removed.
  • "Rooke's fleet arrived on 12 August" - are we still talking about 1702?
  • Yes.
  • "under Admiral Sir Cloudesley Shovell" - that's a fabulous name. Just saying :-)
  • Indeed! His end was just as spectacular...
  • "Sir John Leake, who Hardy frequently served under" => "Sir John Leake, whom Hardy frequently served under"
  • Done.
  • Notes 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 11, 13 are not complete sentences so don't need full stops
  • Removed.

Comments from Mike Christie edit

  • "Hardy became a follower of Captain George Churchill, to whom he served as first lieutenant": I would expect "whom he served", not "to whom he served".
  • Done.
  • "Having fought at the Battle of Cádiz, he subsequently": we have another sentence shortly after this beginning with "Having", so how about "He fought at the Battle of Cádiz, and subsequently"?
  • Done.
  • "He was acquitted but was further investigated by a panel from the Admiralty and committees of the Houses of Commons and Lords." Suggest "He was acquitted but was further investigated by a panel from the Admiralty and committees of the Houses of Commons and Lords, which again exonerated him." As it stands the lead doesn't make it clear that he survived the later investigations with no blame.
  • Done.
  • "he fought at the Battle of Barfleur, taking place between 19 and 24 May": suggest "he fought at the Battle of Barfleur, between 19 and 24 May 1692".
  • Partially done - did not add year as is mentioned in previous sentence.
  • "with which to protect trade travelling through the bay and to the west of the English Channel": suggest making it clear that this refers to the Bay of Biscay, assuming that's correct.
  • Done.
  • "the fleet travelled to Barcelona, Spain, from whence Hardy was sent to": "whence" means "from where", so I would suggest either "Spain, whence" or "Spain, from which".
  • Done the former.
  • "Hardy coordinated Elizabeth Christine's move to Spain which would be done with Leake's fleet." Suggest "Hardy coordinated Elizabeth Christine's planned move to Spain with Leake's fleet."
  • Done.

That's it for a first pass. I'll read through again once you've responded to these. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:28, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie: Thanks for the comments, responses above. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 13:21, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixes look good. One more question:

  • Stephen Leake thought Hardy ignorant of sea affairs, and John Leake (were they related by any chance?) had an inner circle who thought him an incompetent seaman. We don't get any clear reason as to why they might think badly of his skills. Is there more that could be said? Since both these opinions are contemporary I can understand that no more information might be available.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:53, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Stephen's maternal aunt was married to John. John left the majority of his estate to Stephen's father on the condition that they took his surname. Stephen wrote the biography of John that I believe both these comments originate from. The sources don't go into more detail though. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 14:06, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Good enough. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:11, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Looks FAC quality to me. You have two non-MILHIST supports, so you might want to ping the editors who reviewed this for A-class to see if any have time to add a review here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:11, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

  • You have several sources over a hundred years old. I asked about Clowes in a previous FAC and was reassured that it is treated as reliable by modern historians. Is the same true for Campbell, Charnock, and Laughton?
  • Suggest adding publisher location to the ODNB citations.

Otherwise sources are reliable and the links work. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:05, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I believe them all to be reliable. I would have liked to have used more modern sources, but this period is a strange one in that as time had gone on the histories have gotten less detailed and really less has been written altogether. Sir John Knox Laughton is probably one of the most accomplished naval historians of the last few hundred years, and his work in the Dictionary of National Biography has been added in most cases untouched to the modern Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. Charnock's biographies are unique in their breadth of content and are still being republished by Cambridge University Press. Campbell is not perhaps as well known but I have used him only for a couple of minor details. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 14:15, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
OK, that works. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:42, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pass. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:42, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild edit

Recusing to review.

  • "Commander-in-Chief, The Nore, Thames and Medway". Why the upper case initial Cs?
  • Removed.
  • "assisting in the transport of Elisabeth Christine of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel to Spain". Perhaps you could indicate why merely assisting in the transportation of a civilian is so worthy of note?
  • Have made an attempt
Perhaps 'for her marriage to the important English ally the Archduke Charles'?
  • Done.
  • "possibly because of Jacobite sympathies." Would it be possible to explain this succinctly in plain English, per MOS:NOFORCELINK: "Do use a link wherever appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links."
  • I have made an attempt to expand on the subject but sources go into very little detail as to what the accusations against Hardy in particular were, so I've had to stay pretty general
  • "He was the son of John le Hardy, solicitor-general of Jersey". Possibly an upper case S and C.
  • Done.
  • "who became Hardy's patron", also "follower" in the lead. If you are going to use these terms, you need to explain them. (Or thee and me may be the only readers who ever understand what you mean.)
  • Expanded out a little
  • "96-gun ship of the line". Perhaps a note explaining what 96-gun ship and ship of the line mean. The latter could be as simple as explaining that they were the largest warships of the time.
  • Done.
  • "sometime before 1688, at which point he was". I am not sure that a year can be referred to as a "point". Perhaps 'at wich time'?
  • Done.
  • "protecting trade from French privateers." "protecting trade" is a bit hand wavey. A tad more specific? 'protecting British and Dutch merchant ships from ...' or something?
  • Double checked the source and it's actually Guernsey trade.
  • "Between 1695 and 1696". There isn't any between. :) Perhaps "Between" → 'In'. More precise dating would be nice if available.
  • It was a yearly appointment that seems to have usually gone from November to November, but the dates aren't given for Hardy in particular.
  • "a convoy of mast ships". A "mast ship" sounds as if it were a ship constructed out of masts.
  • Reworked.
  • "with him moving to the 50-gun ship of the line HMS Coventry in April 1701". That's a stand out peacetime promotion. Is it known why Hardy got it?
  • Nope. ODNB doesn't think it strange at all, saying "in May 1698 he was appointed to the Deal Castle, in April 1701 to the Coventry, and in January 1702 to the Pembroke".
  • "also from Jersey, went ashore and was assumed by the locals to be French." Why was that?
  • People from the Channel Islands are usually fluent in French, it's a bit of a melting pot of Anglo-French culture there. The sources don't explicitly say that though, I'm just guessing in this instance.
  • I should think that all but certain. Is there no way of indicating as much to the reader?
  • I don't believe so. The sources are as follows:
  • "There the chaplain of the Pembroke, also a native of Jersey, who was assumed on shore to be a Frenchman..."
  • "Her chaplain...By accident he encountered, and struck up an acquaintance with, the French Consul"
  • "His chaplain, a Mr. Beauvoir, a native of Jersey...fell...into company with the French consul, who incautiously boasted..."
  • "After the battle Rooke rewarded Hardy with the duty of sailing to England with news of the victory." A footnote explaining why this was a reward?
  • No need for a note, I'd mis-read the source; it's the knighthood that is the reward in this instance (duh!).
  • "Hardy was rewarded with a new command, the 70-gun ship of the line HMS Bedford." In what way was being transferred from one ship of the line to another a reward?
  • Reworded. my thought process was probably that a captain would prefer a new ship to an old one, but that's perilously close to OR!
I am sure you are correct, but, as you say ...
  • "the 24-gun merchant San Nicholas" 1. Perhaps 'merchant ship, and linked. 2. "captured three enemy warships". So the merchant is also a warship?
  • Reworded.
  • "and having seventy-four casualties." The size of the crew, to put the casualty level in context, would be helpful.
  • Done.
  • "in the Bay of Biscay, and as such participated in the successful siege of Ostend". This seems to imply that Ostend is in the Bay of Biscay.
  • Reworded, although I don't think I have the sources to actually say when/how the squadron came to move.
  • "In October Hardy was". As it's a new paragraph and a new section, could we be reminded of the year.
  • Added.
  • "with which to protect trade travelling through the Bay of Biscay". As before re "trade".
  • Sources don't say exactly what this trade was but I've described it as merchant ships.
  • "which brought him a considerable amount of prize money". Could we have an in line explanation of prize money per MOS:NOFORCELINK.
  • Reworded to be more accurate to source.
  • "by the middle of August the convoy had only reached Torbay". This will mean little to most, especially given that you have not mentioned where it sailed from. I suggest adding that last detail, giving a distance in miles and considering removing mention of Torbay in favour of a more general comment.
  • Reworded.
  • "and 30 store ships" A store ship being what?
  • Reworked.
  • "which was slowed by heavy fouling." Again an in line explanation would be helpful.
  • Made an attempt.
  • "return from prize-taking". What is "prize-taking?
  • Reworded.
  • "Hardy, in fact, thought he had encountered Duguay-Trouin again." Delete "in fact".
  • Done.
  • "Britain's ally Archduke Charles". Perhaps worth mentioning where Charles ruled and/or aspired to rule. And where he was located at this time.
  • Done.
  • "where she and Charles married." Did this have any political or military implications or consequences?
  • While I'm not an expert on this by any means, my reading leads to be believe that the answer is..not really? The literature does discuss how she was very beautiful, but when it comes to consequences they're mostly how Elisabeth Christine was able to use her new position to give her family money.
  • "The fleet afterwards captured Cagliari on 1 August". Perhaps insert ', the capital of Sardina,'.
  • Done.
  • "with his flag in Canterbury." Only liable to be understood by aficionados.
  • Reworded both instances.
  • "While cruising, he captured a French prize". I understand that by "prize" you mean 'ship', but I am not sure another reader will. And is anything further known about it?
  • Changed to "merchant ship". Added what very little the source says about the ship.
  • "to escort a convoy destined for Russia to the Orkney Islands." Perhaps 'as far as the Orkney Islands'?
  • Done.
  • "He sailed with the ships to the Shetland Isles". Likewise. Unless they actually entered port at the Shetlands.
  • Done.
  • "a candidate to lead the Quebec Expedition." MOS:NOFORCELINK again I'm afraid.
  • Expanded on.
  • "but as with the Dunkirk squadron was not deemed". Would it not be better to mention the lack of fault at Dunkirk in the paragraph discussing Dunkirk?
  • Done.
  • "a French private squadron". What is a "private squadron"?
  • Reworded.
  • "while the fifth blew up when attacked." What happened to the sixth French ship?
  • Hardy did not capture it; "that out of the remainder, three were captured, and one blown up". Reworded.
  • "there was an armistice in place for peace negotiations". Maybe 'there was an armistice in place to allow peace negotiations to take place'?
  • Used "to begin" to avoid too many "place"s.

That's it for a first run through. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:23, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild: Have responded to all above. Thanks for the detailed review! Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 00:59, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nice. A couple of come backs. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:32, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: Responded. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 22:30, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Hawkeye7, you kindly did the image review for this at ACR. Any chance you could have another look at them for FAC? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:28, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Sure. Review follows. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:52, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass edit

Only five images.

All good. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:52, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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